Because Peasant and Pauper have theirs, and my multiplayer discussion keeps falling into the main SCD areas...
Hopefully you EDH guys can pull me into a line a little bit for the vague differences between EDH and vanilla multiplayer cubes, but I think they're similar enough that they can warrant a single thread.
Mods: Please, pretty please, can we sticky this one like the others? I promise not to post in the Chaos Orb SDC anymore.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
What are your thoughts on Limited Resources for multiplayer cubes? The card was superb for us whenever we randomly did a multiplayer session with my cube, but I know many people shun the card due to its *ahem* limiting nature.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I'm not averse to stickying this if discussion takes off, but you need to get it there first
Naturally. I figure it's going to be one of those things that grows over time, much like the others have. Gatecrash Spoiler Season is probably going to be suck-it-and-see time for this one. My hope is that you can point all the disgusting EDH-only rares that you'd never play in a 1-on-1 cube in a million years in here!
What are your thoughts on Limited Resources for multiplayer cubes? The card was superb for us whenever we randomly did a multiplayer session with my cube, but I know many people shun the card due to its *ahem* limiting nature.
Haha, nice work! Talk about one of the Chaos Orbs of the Multiplayer arena!
In short, if your playgroup will put up with it, you should be running it. It's that good.
Mine had a nasty incident about a decade ago, where Player #1 in a 12-player free-for-all led with "Plains, Limited Resources, go". I'll let you guess how well that ended!
So it's not in my cube, but if was tolerated, it sure would be.
There don't seem to be very many multiplayer focused cubes here...I need to stop being lazy and post my list up in the Cube List section at one point.
I'm not a huge fan of Limited Resources, if only because it has the tendency to make games unfun until someone can cast some removal. It is powerful though, no doubt about it.
Here's another topic to get the discussion going: Red is probably the color that needs the biggest makeover when making the jump from duels to multiplayer since single target direct damage is generally pretty bad in multiplayer games. How do you guys handle red in multiplayer?
We're ok with limited resources in multiplayer. I don't think it necessarily corresponds that a multiplayer format has to be casual or a duel format competitive. We are just as spikey in multiplayer as duel, and there are others who ban Armageddon from their duelling cubes because they find it un-fun. The trick with Limited Resources is still being able to exploit it with few lands in play and at the same time not be killed by everyone else. My cube runs power and fast artifact mana lessens the effect of LR somewhat.
Red is a challenge in multiplayer. It can be improved depending on the format you play, as can other aggressive cards/strategies. Formats where there is an incentive to be aggressive (e.g. rumble rule) or you have to kill fewer players (e.g. star or hunt) allow red to do better.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There don't seem to be very many multiplayer focused cubes here...I need to stop being lazy and post my list up in the Cube List section at one point.
I'm fairly sure there's around five EDH cubes, and five standard multiplayer cubes. They're the ballpark figures, anyway. But the number is rising (particularly with EDH). Go for it with yours!
Here's another topic to get the discussion going: Red is probably the color that needs the biggest makeover when making the jump from duels to multiplayer since single target direct damage is generally pretty bad in multiplayer games. How do you guys handle red in multiplayer?
Goblins are horrible in multiplayer, too. You can pretty much throw out half the red cube staples 3CC and down when you get to multiplayer.
I'd like to think I've almost got the low end of my red curve decent, but my 4CC slot is terrible, particularly on the non-creature side. Because I like to maintain some semblance of a curve, I've got five creatures and four spells in this slot. And I'm so light on in this slot that my cube is currently running Changeling Berserker, Kyren Negotiations and Aether Sting. The Negotiations has actually been borderline playable with token strategies, but the other two are just terrible. I need to get Hound of Griselbrand and Chain Reaction in pronto.
Oh, and I support the multiplayer Cube thread. Feels odd to post about stuff like the two cards mentioned above or others as SCD when it is crystal clear these cards are awful in 1v1 Cubes.
Hear hear. I posted an SCD for Hateflayer a week or two back, and the rest of the forum was like "Wait... what?".
And another one for us to discuss - Grave Betrayal.
I would likely get laughed at for SCDing this, but it was a complete auto-include for my cube. Plays very similarly to Debtors' Knell.
And another one for us to discuss - Grave Betrayal.
I would likely get laughed at for SCDing this, but it was a complete auto-include for my cube. Plays very similarly to Debtors' Knell.
At that casting cost, I would rather run Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet or Lim-Dûl the Necromancer, with a strong preference for Kalitas. Both of those are slightly more fragile than Grave Betrayal, but I feel like the trade off is worth it as both can be used as blockers when you're in a pinch. Kalitas also has repeatedable removal built in, which I always like in multiplayer creatures.
As for 4-drops in red, yeah...it's pretty rough. I've been considering Fumiko the Lowblood and Diaochan, Artful Beauty...though with Diaochan I think that's mostly because of my fetish for P3K cards in new frame. Fumiko seems like she'd be decent on paper, but I'm not sure if she'd be any good in practice. Maybe replace cards in that slot with more mass X damage?
Both of those are slightly more fragile than Grave Betrayal...
In our multiplayer games there is often a fair amount of mass creature removal. Haste creatures are good at handing out the beats after the board is emptied. Grave Betrayal looks awesome with mass removal, but you wouldn't be able to rely on your opponents casting Wraths when you have GB on the board.
Has anyone else tried Furnace of Rath in red for multiplayer? It really changes how the game plays and can help red a lot in multiplayer.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Red is definitely the weakest color in my EDH cube. But I've pulled off a pretty powerful Mono-red deck before.
The red 4-drops I'm running are:
Flametongue Kavu - 4 damage is still a pretty decent amount in EDH, and hits about half of the creatures in the cube. 4/2 body for 4 is decent as well. Diaochan, Artful Beauty - With proper politics, she taps for 2x Terminate. That's pretty sweet. Worst case scenario, she trades herself for any other creature. Still solid. Goblin Settler and Tuktuk Scrapper - I run a very minor goblin theme in the cube, so I like to have options for Goblin Matron to tutor that fill several roles. These two guys provide creature and artifact removal in Goblin form, and are the most synergistic with Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker of all of the cards with those effects (like Avalanche Riders, Manic Vandal, etc) Anger - Definitely a multiplayer staple. 2/2 haste for 4 is eh, his real gold is the fact that as soon as he ends up in your yard, through any means, all your guys forever have haste. Aftershock - Solid Red removal card, especially with EDH's buffer of 40 life. Sneak Attack - Red has a high curve so that it can provide the creatures to support Mayael the Anima and Kaalia of the Vast. This gives you a good alternative method of cheating those creatures in. Gauntlet of Might - Great mana-doubler and team-buffer for a red deck. It's like getting Caged Sun at a 2-mana discount, or Gauntlet of Power at a one-mana discount, and both of those cards are good enough to run. Grab the Reins - One of the best Threaten effects out there, due to its instant speed. Frequently, even without entwining it, you'll steal a creature and put it in the way of an attacking creature, taking them both out. With Entwine, you can even take it a step further by stealing a creature and directly pitching it, taking out any creature and any creature smaller than it at any time. Chain Reaction - Solid red Wrath effect. Might be getting cut for Starstorm at some point, but this can clear a clogged board like no other (besides Blasphemous Act) Into the Core - Gets rid of two artifacts, for good, at instant speed. There's really not much more you can ask from a utility spell. Pyrohemia - Another Wrath effect. This one is more mana-intensive, but can keep a stranglehold on a board where you've got the biggest creature(s), and chunks down players' life totals in the process. Stranglehold - Speaking of Stranglehold, this one shuts out all tutor effects, including most of Green's ramp. Koth of the Hammer - Very underestimated, in my opinion. His +1 effectively lets him swing for 4 haste, which is minor but effective. His -2 plays mana-doubler, fueling out huge fatties on turn 5 or gigantic X spells to close out the game. His -5 gives you some fairly amazing board control and wincon. Wild Ricochet - A definite blowout card, it lets you turn a spell back upon its controller (or any other hapless target) twofold. Definitely one of the best Red multicolor/EDH cards.
As you can see, it's mostly non-creatures plus a few utility guys. But the four-drops across the board in EDH are mostly Utility.
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Red is a really hard color to make interesting or strong in the right ways in multiplayer. It's philosophy just doesn't lend itself well to long games.
We've decided that red's strengths lay in it's ability to win out of nowhere. Red burn is great, just as long as it's X burn spells. Long multiplayer games make for huge, game ending X spells. The multiple attack phase cards do a great job of letting you pull a win out of nowhere as well. So what did we do to support that? We gave it big, stupid dragons.
Unfortunately, red just doesn't have a lot of resilience, and thats what you really need in multiplayer games. Stalking Vengeance, Viscous Shadows, and Wheel of Fortune-type cards help a lot, but they are still a shallow way to approach resilience.
The Fork effects are probably the most interesting thing red has going for it. There just aren't enough of them, and with enough design space explored with that kind of effect to make it a primary component in red.
@Grave Betrayal: That card is sweet, but it does paint something of a target on your head. Wraths happen all the time and knowing that a single player is going to get all of the wrathed creatures is scary stuff. Build up something of a deterring board presence before you drop it, and it could very easily win you the game. I'd also take the enchantment over the creature versions any day with how easily creatures are removed and enchantments are not.
Pox subtheme i think is a definitely a fun beast in multiplayer. Everybody sac effects give you such an advantage. Innocent blood becomes such a higher pick than if it were 1 v 1.
What are peoples thoughts on Voidmage Husher? Too expensive for the effect it provides?
One of my favorite arts in all of magic... I'd agree tho that it's a bit expensive. It seems like the best application for the card is to surprise interrupt the resolution of conflict between two other players; like interrupting a flashed restoration angel, or preventing royal assassin's ability to kill a key creature.
What are peoples thoughts on Voidmage Husher? Too expensive for the effect it provides?
I've seen it used to good effect in EDH, though I don't/haven't run it in my Cube. It's worth considering for an EDH cube, as it can eke out a lot of incremental advantage by stopping O-Stone, Relic of Progenitus, etc, but it's probably too slow for a regular Multiplayer cube.
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Pox subtheme i think is a definitely a fun beast in multiplayer. Everybody sac effects give you such an advantage. Innocent blood becomes such a higher pick than if it were 1 v 1.
Question: Does your meta like it or do you like it? I too had a Pox theme in my multiplayer Cube but the only person who would ever draft it was me. The deck forces you to play mono-black (more-or-less) and most players don't like hurting themselves. While I personally enjoyed the archetype, no one else seemed to, so I removed it. Do people in your meta legitimately enjoy the deck, or is it just that you yourself enjoy it? My suspicion is the latter but I could easily be wrong. My philosophy has always been to try and ignore my personal bias and to field what people actually play. This meant cutting archetypes that I personally enjoyed for "friendlier" ones like tokens and other such nonsense. There's no point in adding a bunch of Smokestack cards if no one is going to play the damned thing after all.
What are peoples thoughts on Voidmage Husher? Too expensive for the effect it provides?
Far too slow and mana intensive for such a marginal effect. Blue doesn't have amazing options at 4 but things like Chronozoa, Clone, Control Magic, Chameleon Spirit, Rite of Replication, Fact or Fiction and much more all trump these kinds of small value cards. Blue typically lacks punch and power in multiplayer Cubes and so you need to take advantage of its 4+ CMC spells to give it some real action.
What are your thoughts on Limited Resources for multiplayer cubes? The card was superb for us whenever we randomly did a multiplayer session with my cube, but I know many people shun the card due to its *ahem* limiting nature.
I don't like the card because if you cast it on turn 1 it can easily end the game on the spot. I'm sure that some % of the time it could be a "tough but beatable" card but I'm not willing to add cards to my Cube that are completely unbeatable, even if it's just a small % of the time.
Hear hear. I posted an SCD for Hateflayer a week or two back, and the rest of the forum was like "Wait... what?".
I ran the card in my Cube for a long time and it was always a decent finisher + removal spell. It's slow but the fact that it's quite defensive in nature really helps it in my opinion. You can attack, eat something, and sit back with your mean-ass blocker. Keep in mind that you can usually attack with it and do nothing. If anyone swings at you they lose an attacker and you eat something for free. If people do nothing you eat something at EOT. At 7 mana he's not amazing, but he's not worthless either. I'm not a big fan of 7 drops that eat mana, but hey, Red doesn't have the best options at its disposal.
To give you an idea, his competition at the 7 CMC slot, in my mind, is: Magma Giant, Hamletback Goliath, Balefire Dragon and Stalking Vengeance. I think he's worse than most of them, which is why he was eventually cut from my Cubes. Magma Giant probably isn't a legitimate contender though, but even then I'd rather play the Dragon and Vengeance over it and I don't think that it's worth running too many Red 7 drops. The Goliath is fine (he's worse than he seems though) and typically makes the cut but his utter lack of utility and immediate impact is a bit underwhelming.
And another one for us to discuss - Grave Betrayal.
I would likely get laughed at for SCDing this, but it was a complete auto-include for my cube. Plays very similarly to Debtors' Knell.
I think it's worth adding. It's slow and requires support but it's a legitimate game-ender that forces people to answer it. People like Control decks and they can realistically cast this kind of card in a slow multiplayer game, unlike they could in a duel.
At that casting cost, I would rather run Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet or Lim-Dûl the Necromancer, with a strong preference for Kalitas. Both of those are slightly more fragile than Grave Betrayal, but I feel like the trade off is worth it as both can be used as blockers when you're in a pinch. Kalitas also has repeatedable removal built in, which I always like in multiplayer creatures.
7 drops that you need to untap with and sink mana into aren't great in my opinion. You're beyond slow and that point. I don't feel like the 3 cards that you listed share the same sphere and I certainly wouldn't field the creatures over the enchantment myself. They're too vulnerable, slow, and weak in my mind. At that mana I want to play something like Sheoldred, Whispering One if I'm going to be playing a creature. Your alternatives just don't cut it in my mind.
As for 4-drops in red, yeah...it's pretty rough. I've been considering Fumiko the Lowblood and Diaochan, Artful Beauty...though with Diaochan I think that's mostly because of my fetish for P3K cards in new frame. Fumiko seems like she'd be decent on paper, but I'm not sure if she'd be any good in practice. Maybe replace cards in that slot with more mass X damage?
Fumiko is fine as long as people aren't building base-Red decks. Where she shines is RG decks with monster bodies. Having people attack is good as long as they're not attacking you. She's not great when she's sitting next to some small, bad bodies but she's pretty good as long as she's hugging some fatties.
We've decided that red's strengths lay in it's ability to win out of nowhere. Red burn is great, just as long as it's X burn spells. Long multiplayer games make for huge, game ending X spells. The multiple attack phase cards do a great job of letting you pull a win out of nowhere as well. So what did we do to support that? We gave it big, stupid dragons.
I agree with the X spells but I'm not a big fan of the "extra attack phase" cards myself (save for a select-few). I'm also not big on random, dumb dragons that aren't very good. Red is a really good support color in some archetypes and that's where it's at its best in my opinion. Base Red decks are playable but weak, but RG and BR decks can be monstrously powerful by comparison. Imagine curving Taurean Mauler into Forgotten Ancient into Predatory Advantage into Dragon Broodmother or Dragonlair Spider. Toss Kessig Wolf Run and Earthquake in there next and finish it off with say Triumph of Ferocity and Multani, Maro-Sorcerer. You can build some mean decks but they're rarely going to be base-Red.
I think the biggest mistake that people make is treating Red like a primary color when it's actually best used as a secondary one (in my opinion). The "burn you all to 0" deck is playable but it rarely wins games in my experience and so you're better off splashing Red than trying to force mono-Red archetypes. I want people to be using it so that their deck gains access to Shattering Pulse and Earthquake. I don't think that people should be looking to first pick a Red card unless it's like Taurean Mauler or Mass Mutiny or something. The sooner that people accept Red as something that you use "a bit of" but not "a lot of," the better (at least in my mind).
There has recently been a wave of black section overhauls in traditional cubes on these boards because one user, Kojiro, discovered that wizards has finally released enough support to make a previously unsupported archetype not only playable but very strong. Black was just how you've described red, a support color and not a primary color. With this overhaul, black has become a primary color worth drafting.
I would really like to find the same thing for red. I'm not sure if I said this in my last post on the subject, but red is kinda all over the place except in the realm of burn. It's secondary functions aren't very synergistic with each other; at least as far as long games are concerned. I'm hoping, one day, to find a powerful strategy for red that really brings my red section some cohesion and that can stand on its own. Maybe Wizards will help us get there in the next couple sets. *fingers-crossed
As it stands, I'm not okay with red be a support color only.
There has recently been a wave of black section overhauls in traditional cubes on these boards because one user, Kojiro, discovered that wizards has finally released enough support to make a previously unsupported archetype not only playable but very strong. Black was just how you've described red, a support color and not a primary color. With this overhaul, black has become a primary color worth drafting.
... what? Is this some kind of a joke or something? Black has always been one of the strongest multiplayer Cube colors and I don't believe for a second that this is some sort of "new discovery" or anything. Black has always access to an insane suite of mass removal and draw in addition to a powerful array of win conditions and drain. Cards such as Exsanguinate and Blood Tithe give you the longevity that you'll need to stick around while also fueling your bevy of draw engines such as Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon. As long as you can survive long enough to start casting your Grave Titans and Griselbrands you should be in a good place. Black always gets access to stick revival such as Diabolic Servitude and Sheoldred, Whispering One which can make removal and such much less effective against you. Black also has access to powerful early game defenders such as Vampire Nighthawk and Abyssal Persecutor. They are relevant both early and late and that's typically vital your overall success.
With respect to removal, you get access to cool cards like Profane Command, Massacre, Hex, Damnation, Decree of Pain and more. I really like Hex as a 6 mana Plague Wind and it usually cripples a good chunk of the table. Profane Command can revive + kill something as needed but can also dome for X and give your team evasion so that you can take out a key threat no problem. The other mass removal spells are just amazing.
Black also gets random cards like Syphon Mind, Syphon Flesh, Grim Betrayal, Harvester of Souls and Mortivore that scale as the number of opponents increases. This makes it an ideal primary color because you gain access to those immensely powerful cards all throughout the draft.
Is there something that I'm just not seeing here? Why would anyone think that Black is a bad multiplayer Cube color? Not only doesn't have some of the best resilience and power, but it also has a ton of great draw engines and a bevy of flexible mass removal at its disposal. It's my favorite color by an insane margin and it prompted me to write a guide on playing the color in a multiplayer setting (which can be found on the multiplayer forum).
There has recently been a wave of black section overhauls in traditional cubes on these boards because one user, Kojiro, discovered that wizards has finally released enough support to make a previously unsupported archetype not only playable but very strong. Black was just how you've described red, a support color and not a primary color. With this overhaul, black has become a primary color worth drafting.
I would really like to find the same thing for red. I'm not sure if I said this in my last post on the subject, but red is kinda all over the place except in the realm of burn. It's secondary functions aren't very synergistic with each other; at least as far as long games are concerned. I'm hoping, one day, to find a powerful strategy for red that really brings my red section some cohesion and that can stand on its own. Maybe Wizards will help us get there in the next couple sets. *fingers-crossed
As it stands, I'm not okay with red be a support color only.
^^^ 1v1, dueling, ie not multiplayer
Black is fantastic in multiplayer . . . as you noted.
Has anyone else tried Furnace of Rath in red for multiplayer? It really changes how the game plays and can help red a lot in multiplayer.
The Furnace was in my original list, but the triple-red CC really hurt it - you're pretty much reduced to drafting hard red if you're headed down that route. I tend to lean more towards Fire Servant in Cube for this reason.
Hey Cz! Glad to see I was able to haul you in here!
I would really like to find the same thing for red. I'm not sure if I said this in my last post on the subject, but red is kinda all over the place except in the realm of burn. It's secondary functions aren't very synergistic with each other; at least as far as long games are concerned. I'm hoping, one day, to find a powerful strategy for red that really brings my red section some cohesion and that can stand on its own. Maybe Wizards will help us get there in the next couple sets. *fingers-crossed
As it stands, I'm not okay with red be a support color only.
Yeah, pretty much this. The only other theme that people seem to have tried with red is Goblins, but the card quality just isn't there.
Basically red is just a one trick pony with direct damage, and in multiplayer that trick isn't even that good. I agree with cz, it probably works best as a support color for now, but I also agree with Theogony_IX in that I'd like to see more cards in red that would let it take a more dominant role in (multiplayer) Cube.
Black is fantastic in multiplayer . . . as you noted.
May I ask what that strategy is? I'm legitimately curious. I typically hate "regular" cubing because Black is always terrible (or at least it has been for many, many years) and it's my favorite color by an insane margin.
Basically red is just a one trick pony with direct damage, and in multiplayer that trick isn't even that good. I agree with cz, it probably works best as a support color for now, but I also agree with Theogony_IX in that I'd like to see more cards in red that would let it take a more dominant role in (multiplayer) Cube.
Hey, I wish that Red were stronger too. I'm just trying to be realistic about it. In the same way that you don't start a regular draft looking to go heavy-Black (unless you open an AMAZING Black card) I don't think you should be looking to draft heavy-Red in a multiplayer Cube. Yes, a select-few cards will prompt you to, but by and large people should be looking to splash it as a 2nd or 3rd color.
May I ask what that strategy is? I'm legitimately curious. I typically hate "regular" cubing because Black is always terrible (or at least it has been for many, many years) and it's my favorite color by an insane margin.
Because Peasant and Pauper have theirs, and my multiplayer discussion keeps falling into the main SCD areas...
Hopefully you EDH guys can pull me into a line a little bit for the vague differences between EDH and vanilla multiplayer cubes, but I think they're similar enough that they can warrant a single thread.
Mods: Please, pretty please, can we sticky this one like the others? I promise not to post in the Chaos Orb SDC anymore.
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What are your thoughts on Limited Resources for multiplayer cubes? The card was superb for us whenever we randomly did a multiplayer session with my cube, but I know many people shun the card due to its *ahem* limiting nature.
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Naturally. I figure it's going to be one of those things that grows over time, much like the others have. Gatecrash Spoiler Season is probably going to be suck-it-and-see time for this one. My hope is that you can point all the disgusting EDH-only rares that you'd never play in a 1-on-1 cube in a million years in here!
Haha, nice work! Talk about one of the Chaos Orbs of the Multiplayer arena!
In short, if your playgroup will put up with it, you should be running it. It's that good.
Mine had a nasty incident about a decade ago, where Player #1 in a 12-player free-for-all led with "Plains, Limited Resources, go". I'll let you guess how well that ended!
So it's not in my cube, but if was tolerated, it sure would be.
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I'm not a huge fan of Limited Resources, if only because it has the tendency to make games unfun until someone can cast some removal. It is powerful though, no doubt about it.
Here's another topic to get the discussion going: Red is probably the color that needs the biggest makeover when making the jump from duels to multiplayer since single target direct damage is generally pretty bad in multiplayer games. How do you guys handle red in multiplayer?
Red is a challenge in multiplayer. It can be improved depending on the format you play, as can other aggressive cards/strategies. Formats where there is an incentive to be aggressive (e.g. rumble rule) or you have to kill fewer players (e.g. star or hunt) allow red to do better.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I'm fairly sure there's around five EDH cubes, and five standard multiplayer cubes. They're the ballpark figures, anyway. But the number is rising (particularly with EDH). Go for it with yours!
Goblins are horrible in multiplayer, too. You can pretty much throw out half the red cube staples 3CC and down when you get to multiplayer.
I'd like to think I've almost got the low end of my red curve decent, but my 4CC slot is terrible, particularly on the non-creature side. Because I like to maintain some semblance of a curve, I've got five creatures and four spells in this slot. And I'm so light on in this slot that my cube is currently running Changeling Berserker, Kyren Negotiations and Aether Sting. The Negotiations has actually been borderline playable with token strategies, but the other two are just terrible. I need to get Hound of Griselbrand and Chain Reaction in pronto.
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Hear hear. I posted an SCD for Hateflayer a week or two back, and the rest of the forum was like "Wait... what?".
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I would likely get laughed at for SCDing this, but it was a complete auto-include for my cube. Plays very similarly to Debtors' Knell.
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At that casting cost, I would rather run Kalitas, Bloodchief of Ghet or Lim-Dûl the Necromancer, with a strong preference for Kalitas. Both of those are slightly more fragile than Grave Betrayal, but I feel like the trade off is worth it as both can be used as blockers when you're in a pinch. Kalitas also has repeatedable removal built in, which I always like in multiplayer creatures.
Has anyone tried using a "Big Red" strategy for red in multiplayer? Right now I'm running Steam Blast, Volcanic Fallout, Breath of Darigaaz, Earthquake, Fault Line (would replace with Rolling Earthquake if I were willing to pay that much for a white-bordered card not on the reserve list), Comet Storm, Fireball, Inferno, Ashling the Pilgrim, and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. I'm thinking I might even add Stuffy Doll as a red 5-drop.
As for 4-drops in red, yeah...it's pretty rough. I've been considering Fumiko the Lowblood and Diaochan, Artful Beauty...though with Diaochan I think that's mostly because of my fetish for P3K cards in new frame. Fumiko seems like she'd be decent on paper, but I'm not sure if she'd be any good in practice. Maybe replace cards in that slot with more mass X damage?
In our multiplayer games there is often a fair amount of mass creature removal. Haste creatures are good at handing out the beats after the board is emptied. Grave Betrayal looks awesome with mass removal, but you wouldn't be able to rely on your opponents casting Wraths when you have GB on the board.
Has anyone else tried Furnace of Rath in red for multiplayer? It really changes how the game plays and can help red a lot in multiplayer.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
The red 4-drops I'm running are:
Flametongue Kavu - 4 damage is still a pretty decent amount in EDH, and hits about half of the creatures in the cube. 4/2 body for 4 is decent as well.
Diaochan, Artful Beauty - With proper politics, she taps for 2x Terminate. That's pretty sweet. Worst case scenario, she trades herself for any other creature. Still solid.
Goblin Settler and Tuktuk Scrapper - I run a very minor goblin theme in the cube, so I like to have options for Goblin Matron to tutor that fill several roles. These two guys provide creature and artifact removal in Goblin form, and are the most synergistic with Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker of all of the cards with those effects (like Avalanche Riders, Manic Vandal, etc)
Anger - Definitely a multiplayer staple. 2/2 haste for 4 is eh, his real gold is the fact that as soon as he ends up in your yard, through any means, all your guys forever have haste.
Aftershock - Solid Red removal card, especially with EDH's buffer of 40 life.
Sneak Attack - Red has a high curve so that it can provide the creatures to support Mayael the Anima and Kaalia of the Vast. This gives you a good alternative method of cheating those creatures in.
Gauntlet of Might - Great mana-doubler and team-buffer for a red deck. It's like getting Caged Sun at a 2-mana discount, or Gauntlet of Power at a one-mana discount, and both of those cards are good enough to run.
Grab the Reins - One of the best Threaten effects out there, due to its instant speed. Frequently, even without entwining it, you'll steal a creature and put it in the way of an attacking creature, taking them both out. With Entwine, you can even take it a step further by stealing a creature and directly pitching it, taking out any creature and any creature smaller than it at any time.
Chain Reaction - Solid red Wrath effect. Might be getting cut for Starstorm at some point, but this can clear a clogged board like no other (besides Blasphemous Act)
Into the Core - Gets rid of two artifacts, for good, at instant speed. There's really not much more you can ask from a utility spell.
Pyrohemia - Another Wrath effect. This one is more mana-intensive, but can keep a stranglehold on a board where you've got the biggest creature(s), and chunks down players' life totals in the process.
Stranglehold - Speaking of Stranglehold, this one shuts out all tutor effects, including most of Green's ramp.
Koth of the Hammer - Very underestimated, in my opinion. His +1 effectively lets him swing for 4 haste, which is minor but effective. His -2 plays mana-doubler, fueling out huge fatties on turn 5 or gigantic X spells to close out the game. His -5 gives you some fairly amazing board control and wincon.
Wild Ricochet - A definite blowout card, it lets you turn a spell back upon its controller (or any other hapless target) twofold. Definitely one of the best Red multicolor/EDH cards.
As you can see, it's mostly non-creatures plus a few utility guys. But the four-drops across the board in EDH are mostly Utility.
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Red is a really hard color to make interesting or strong in the right ways in multiplayer. It's philosophy just doesn't lend itself well to long games.
We've decided that red's strengths lay in it's ability to win out of nowhere. Red burn is great, just as long as it's X burn spells. Long multiplayer games make for huge, game ending X spells. The multiple attack phase cards do a great job of letting you pull a win out of nowhere as well. So what did we do to support that? We gave it big, stupid dragons.
Unfortunately, red just doesn't have a lot of resilience, and thats what you really need in multiplayer games. Stalking Vengeance, Viscous Shadows, and Wheel of Fortune-type cards help a lot, but they are still a shallow way to approach resilience.
The Fork effects are probably the most interesting thing red has going for it. There just aren't enough of them, and with enough design space explored with that kind of effect to make it a primary component in red.
As far as red 4-drops go, Wildfire's list is spot on. We run Obsidian Fireheart and Splinter Twin in our list as well.
@Humpty Dumpty: I think Repercussion and Gratuitous Violence are both better than Furnace of Rath.
@Grave Betrayal: That card is sweet, but it does paint something of a target on your head. Wraths happen all the time and knowing that a single player is going to get all of the wrathed creatures is scary stuff. Build up something of a deterring board presence before you drop it, and it could very easily win you the game. I'd also take the enchantment over the creature versions any day with how easily creatures are removed and enchantments are not.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
One of my favorite arts in all of magic... I'd agree tho that it's a bit expensive. It seems like the best application for the card is to surprise interrupt the resolution of conflict between two other players; like interrupting a flashed restoration angel, or preventing royal assassin's ability to kill a key creature.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I've seen it used to good effect in EDH, though I don't/haven't run it in my Cube. It's worth considering for an EDH cube, as it can eke out a lot of incremental advantage by stopping O-Stone, Relic of Progenitus, etc, but it's probably too slow for a regular Multiplayer cube.
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Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Question: Does your meta like it or do you like it? I too had a Pox theme in my multiplayer Cube but the only person who would ever draft it was me. The deck forces you to play mono-black (more-or-less) and most players don't like hurting themselves. While I personally enjoyed the archetype, no one else seemed to, so I removed it. Do people in your meta legitimately enjoy the deck, or is it just that you yourself enjoy it? My suspicion is the latter but I could easily be wrong. My philosophy has always been to try and ignore my personal bias and to field what people actually play. This meant cutting archetypes that I personally enjoyed for "friendlier" ones like tokens and other such nonsense. There's no point in adding a bunch of Smokestack cards if no one is going to play the damned thing after all.
Far too slow and mana intensive for such a marginal effect. Blue doesn't have amazing options at 4 but things like Chronozoa, Clone, Control Magic, Chameleon Spirit, Rite of Replication, Fact or Fiction and much more all trump these kinds of small value cards. Blue typically lacks punch and power in multiplayer Cubes and so you need to take advantage of its 4+ CMC spells to give it some real action.
I don't like the card because if you cast it on turn 1 it can easily end the game on the spot. I'm sure that some % of the time it could be a "tough but beatable" card but I'm not willing to add cards to my Cube that are completely unbeatable, even if it's just a small % of the time.
I ran the card in my Cube for a long time and it was always a decent finisher + removal spell. It's slow but the fact that it's quite defensive in nature really helps it in my opinion. You can attack, eat something, and sit back with your mean-ass blocker. Keep in mind that you can usually attack with it and do nothing. If anyone swings at you they lose an attacker and you eat something for free. If people do nothing you eat something at EOT. At 7 mana he's not amazing, but he's not worthless either. I'm not a big fan of 7 drops that eat mana, but hey, Red doesn't have the best options at its disposal.
To give you an idea, his competition at the 7 CMC slot, in my mind, is: Magma Giant, Hamletback Goliath, Balefire Dragon and Stalking Vengeance. I think he's worse than most of them, which is why he was eventually cut from my Cubes. Magma Giant probably isn't a legitimate contender though, but even then I'd rather play the Dragon and Vengeance over it and I don't think that it's worth running too many Red 7 drops. The Goliath is fine (he's worse than he seems though) and typically makes the cut but his utter lack of utility and immediate impact is a bit underwhelming.
I think it's worth adding. It's slow and requires support but it's a legitimate game-ender that forces people to answer it. People like Control decks and they can realistically cast this kind of card in a slow multiplayer game, unlike they could in a duel.
7 drops that you need to untap with and sink mana into aren't great in my opinion. You're beyond slow and that point. I don't feel like the 3 cards that you listed share the same sphere and I certainly wouldn't field the creatures over the enchantment myself. They're too vulnerable, slow, and weak in my mind. At that mana I want to play something like Sheoldred, Whispering One if I'm going to be playing a creature. Your alternatives just don't cut it in my mind.
Big Red is way better than little Red. Little Red kills one player, does nothing relevant from that point on and loses. You listed some good cards but what you're missing are the warm bodies that protect you. Taurean Mauler, Obsidian Fireheart, Lord of Shatterskull Pass, Deep-Slumber Titan, Scourge of Geier Reach, Malignus, etc. Stuffy Doll and Creepy Doll are fine but you need those Kargan Dragonlords who can protect you early on as well. Playing nothing but burn is a good way to lose. Playing burn, supporting it with bodies, and finishing things off with game-enders like Chandra's Spitfire and Mass Mutiny is the way to go in my mind.
Fumiko is fine as long as people aren't building base-Red decks. Where she shines is RG decks with monster bodies. Having people attack is good as long as they're not attacking you. She's not great when she's sitting next to some small, bad bodies but she's pretty good as long as she's hugging some fatties.
I agree with the X spells but I'm not a big fan of the "extra attack phase" cards myself (save for a select-few). I'm also not big on random, dumb dragons that aren't very good. Red is a really good support color in some archetypes and that's where it's at its best in my opinion. Base Red decks are playable but weak, but RG and BR decks can be monstrously powerful by comparison. Imagine curving Taurean Mauler into Forgotten Ancient into Predatory Advantage into Dragon Broodmother or Dragonlair Spider. Toss Kessig Wolf Run and Earthquake in there next and finish it off with say Triumph of Ferocity and Multani, Maro-Sorcerer. You can build some mean decks but they're rarely going to be base-Red.
+1 for both of these.
I think the biggest mistake that people make is treating Red like a primary color when it's actually best used as a secondary one (in my opinion). The "burn you all to 0" deck is playable but it rarely wins games in my experience and so you're better off splashing Red than trying to force mono-Red archetypes. I want people to be using it so that their deck gains access to Shattering Pulse and Earthquake. I don't think that people should be looking to first pick a Red card unless it's like Taurean Mauler or Mass Mutiny or something. The sooner that people accept Red as something that you use "a bit of" but not "a lot of," the better (at least in my mind).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I would really like to find the same thing for red. I'm not sure if I said this in my last post on the subject, but red is kinda all over the place except in the realm of burn. It's secondary functions aren't very synergistic with each other; at least as far as long games are concerned. I'm hoping, one day, to find a powerful strategy for red that really brings my red section some cohesion and that can stand on its own. Maybe Wizards will help us get there in the next couple sets. *fingers-crossed
As it stands, I'm not okay with red be a support color only.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
... what? Is this some kind of a joke or something? Black has always been one of the strongest multiplayer Cube colors and I don't believe for a second that this is some sort of "new discovery" or anything. Black has always access to an insane suite of mass removal and draw in addition to a powerful array of win conditions and drain. Cards such as Exsanguinate and Blood Tithe give you the longevity that you'll need to stick around while also fueling your bevy of draw engines such as Phyrexian Arena and Bloodgift Demon. As long as you can survive long enough to start casting your Grave Titans and Griselbrands you should be in a good place. Black always gets access to stick revival such as Diabolic Servitude and Sheoldred, Whispering One which can make removal and such much less effective against you. Black also has access to powerful early game defenders such as Vampire Nighthawk and Abyssal Persecutor. They are relevant both early and late and that's typically vital your overall success.
With respect to removal, you get access to cool cards like Profane Command, Massacre, Hex, Damnation, Decree of Pain and more. I really like Hex as a 6 mana Plague Wind and it usually cripples a good chunk of the table. Profane Command can revive + kill something as needed but can also dome for X and give your team evasion so that you can take out a key threat no problem. The other mass removal spells are just amazing.
Black also gets random cards like Syphon Mind, Syphon Flesh, Grim Betrayal, Harvester of Souls and Mortivore that scale as the number of opponents increases. This makes it an ideal primary color because you gain access to those immensely powerful cards all throughout the draft.
Is there something that I'm just not seeing here? Why would anyone think that Black is a bad multiplayer Cube color? Not only doesn't have some of the best resilience and power, but it also has a ton of great draw engines and a bevy of flexible mass removal at its disposal. It's my favorite color by an insane margin and it prompted me to write a guide on playing the color in a multiplayer setting (which can be found on the multiplayer forum).
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
^^^ 1v1, dueling, ie not multiplayer
Black is fantastic in multiplayer . . . as you noted.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
The Furnace was in my original list, but the triple-red CC really hurt it - you're pretty much reduced to drafting hard red if you're headed down that route. I tend to lean more towards Fire Servant in Cube for this reason.
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Yeah, pretty much this. The only other theme that people seem to have tried with red is Goblins, but the card quality just isn't there.
Basically red is just a one trick pony with direct damage, and in multiplayer that trick isn't even that good. I agree with cz, it probably works best as a support color for now, but I also agree with Theogony_IX in that I'd like to see more cards in red that would let it take a more dominant role in (multiplayer) Cube.
May I ask what that strategy is? I'm legitimately curious. I typically hate "regular" cubing because Black is always terrible (or at least it has been for many, many years) and it's my favorite color by an insane margin.
Yo.
Hey, I wish that Red were stronger too. I'm just trying to be realistic about it. In the same way that you don't start a regular draft looking to go heavy-Black (unless you open an AMAZING Black card) I don't think you should be looking to draft heavy-Red in a multiplayer Cube. Yes, a select-few cards will prompt you to, but by and large people should be looking to splash it as a 2nd or 3rd color.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
People, including myself, have been adding a package of Pox, Smallpox, Deathcloud, Contamination, and Nether Void, alongside the already included Braids, Cabal Minion, and Smokestack. With support cards like Nether Spirit, Nether Traitor, Reassembling Skeleton, and Geralf's Messenger along side the already included Bloodghast, Grave Crawler, and Bitterblossom. There are probably some other cards I'm missing, but that's the basics of it. It's a heavy black grind-out deck, and it's been a very powerful strategy.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor