MTG Salvation

Cloudgoat Ranger

Looking for some opinions on it. Around what size would you think to auto include it?

Performs well? Mediocre? Not running it?

Quote from DerBK

360 card core cube staple.

The best "army in a can".

Siege-Gang is better imo if you actually get to untap with it. Unfortunately for me, Siege-Gang Commander is my cursed cube card. I have never once untapped with it still in play in a cube draft.

Cloudgoat is very above the curve, and he's uncommon! Probably 2nd only to Baneslayer Angel in terms of white 5cmc dudes but it all depends on matchup and the deck you're playing.

Quote from DerBK

True. Siege-Gang is better.

The thing about Cloudgoat is that you don't have to invest mana into him to reach his full potential, unlike Siege-Gang. Gang does shoot damage to the face though.

Quote from Sea R Hill

This card is just boring.

Yea, an above-the-curve creature that makes tokens, has an activated ability, can be blinked, works with anthems and can attack in two different ways is totally boring in all of drafting, deck building, and in game. You have no options at all. I vastly prefer Savannah Lions to this.

Wait what? Not trying to sound overly rude, but this card is like the perfect opposite of boring.

I think he will be in almost all cubes, but falls just short of 360 staple status.

However, he doesn't actually get played as much as you'd think based on this estimation. This seemed to be because he didn't fit that well into our aggro decks at 5 mana and because he isn't really the ideal control finsiher either.

The other issue is that hes at his best in an anthem deck, but those decks are only good when they "work" and tokens is a hard archetype to support at 360 (we find it to not be worthwhile).

I actually think the idea of Cloudgoat being a "curve topper" for aggro is part of the mentality responsible for the struggles of (white) aggro in Cube in general.

I will reemphasize that the amount of play CGR gets in our Cube doesn't truthfully support his "staple" status. At least half of the guys I've ever Cubed with preferred Geist-honored Monk to him for whatever that is worth.

Note that we play with snow-covered lands and Cold Snap so our view of white may be diffferent than most. Recently, we've also been using a bunch of un-cards, notably Once More With Feeling which is even better than I ever remembered/suspected it was.

EDIT: according to eidolon's stats thread -- which I've been taking a long look at recently -- CGR is almost universally played (94%). It is actually tied with Baneslayer Angel.

I am surprised this is even a question.

Quote from KBH

I think he will be in almost all cubes, but falls just short of 360 staple status.

However, he doesn't actually get played as much as you'd think based on this estimation. This seemed to be because he didn't fit that well into our aggro decks at 5 mana and because he isn't really the ideal control finsiher either.

The other issue is that hes at his best in an anthem deck, but those decks are only good when they "work" and tokens is a hard archetype to support at 360 (we find it to not be worthwhile).

I actually think the idea of Cloudgoat being a "curve topper" for aggro is part of the mentality responsible for the struggles of (white) aggro in Cube in general.

I will reemphasize that the amount of play CGR gets in our Cube doesn't truthfully support his "staple" status. At least half of the guys I've ever Cubed with preferred Geist-honored Monk to him for whatever that is worth.

Note that we play with snow-covered lands and Cold Snap so our view of white may be diffferent than most. Recently, we've also been using a bunch of un-cards, notably Once More With Feeling which is even better than I ever remembered/suspected it was.

EDIT: according to eidolon's stats thread -- which I've been taking a long look at recently -- CGR is almost universally played (94%). It is actually tied with Baneslayer Angel.

He's one mana too expensive for true aggro decks, that's true, but as soon as you move a tiny bit more to the midrange-control spectrum, I want to play this. In midrange, it's precisely what you're looking for in a creature, and in control, it helps you stabilize a lot.

It's true that he's best in anthem decks, but he's still a powerhouse and totally pulls his weight without anthems. Geist-Honored Monk, whom you also mentioned, suffers from this problem as well, arguably even more severely.

In his 'obvious' mode he's 5 evasive or 6 non-evasive damage for 5 mana, which is solid. With an anthem effect he can be swinging for ten. He combos with Skullclamp, Smokestack, Braids, and other sac effects. He provides chump blockers aplenty. He negates spot removal and can force control players to Wrath as a 1 for 1. Blink effects and similar can result in a growing army of 1/1s.

Ranger is pretty much my idea of a perfect cube card: his basic effect is solid, and he can combine with other cards in myriad ways for great advantage.

He's very safe in my 450, and I think I'd probably run him at 360.

Awesome card. I'd play it at 360 for sure. It's a good aggro curve topper as a lone 5cc card, it's 6 power and 4 threats from one card. It can attack for 5 with evasion. Its good in blink/bounce decks, token/anthem decks, rock style decks with value reanimation spells, and pretty much every midrange white deck simply based on raw value. It's fantastic.

Another vote of confidence for CGR. It can be used in all 3 'theaters' of decks (having a bunch of blockers isn't the worst for a control deck), has a semi-abusable cip effect (with blinks, clones, etc.), and can have evasion. He also has good interactions with said blinks in addition to token strategies and sacrifice effects (Braids, Smokestack, Pox). And he was the bomb-diggity in Lorwyn drafts

And I'm not sure how aggressive decks are disqualified from using 5-drop cards occasionally.

-AA

I don't like playing this guy in aggro decks, but I'm not exactly sad if it comes down to it. I think reveillark and baneslayer are better than this guy, but he's insane and is in no danger of being cut yet. He's much better than geist honored monk, since when the evasion matters he hits much harder.

Second best white creature, or even tied with Baneslayer for me. There were no other 5 drops I am even close to considering as highly as those two at 360.

I rank Lark and Baneslayer higher, but he's still a very good card.

It's my 3rd favorite white 5-drop.

Only just fell out of my multiplayer cube, and that was to make room for Sun Titan (which is all levels of ridiculous in a slower cube). That's the kind of cut you need to make to exclude him. Even in slower cubes, he's worth it.

I'm thinking of removing Cloudgoat Ranger from my cube to make room for Brimaz, King of Oreskos.
Cloudgoat Ranger just hasn't been played much and lowering the curve for Brimaz seems good.

I don't know why it's not seeing play, I think it's a really good creature. I'd find another cut for the cat king.

Unfortunate that he's not seeing play but I think it should definitely stay in your Cube. I'd cut Precinct Captain or Silverblade Paladin instead. I'd say Honor of the Pure as the first cut but it looks like you're trying to push a white tokens theme?

If he's pushing a white token theme, I don't know why Cloudgoat would be getting cut.

Quote from Altaurus321

If he's pushing a white token theme, I don't know why Cloudgoat would be getting cut.

Because Brimaz seems like a strict upgrade over Cloudgoat Ranger for the tokens theme.
I like to have some support for each theme, but don't feel the need to go all in on a theme if that makes any sense.

Brimaz is no replacement for cloudgoat, cloudgoat allows you to come back from behind which brimaz doesnt do. Cloudgoat is also a great post sweeper threat.

I'd cut all the cards kingneb suggests before cutting Cloudgoat.

Cheers,
rant

I think Brimaz is a really good card, but I don't think Cloudgoat's value drops at all due to his being printed. They're very different cards.

Quote from SpEkKiO99

I'm thinking of removing Cloudgoat Ranger from my cube to make room for Brimaz, King of Oreskos.
Cloudgoat Ranger just hasn't been played much and lowering the curve for Brimaz seems good.

To be fair, "my players just aren't using this card" and "I want to lower the average CMC" are very valid reasons to cut a 5-mana card.

Because Brimaz seems like a strict upgrade over Cloudgoat Ranger for the tokens theme.
I like to have some support for each theme, but don't feel the need to go all in on a theme if that makes any sense.

This is the part people tend to disagree. The cards don't compare that directly.

Remember that if you also support the blink/bounce theme, the loss of Cloudgoat will hurt there too. He plays in more than just token decks.