After Tezzeret 1.0 and Ral, the best card that gives infinite turns with Time Vault is Kiora's Follower.
It's probably not quite good enough on its own, but it accelerates mana, grants creatures pseudo-vigilance, re-uses tap abilities, and attacks for two.
If you want a card that's less narrow than Voltaic Key, and you have a slot in your Simic section, it's well worth trying out.
It's worth noting that Teferi gives us another way to combo with Time Vault, all of which IMO are easier to include than Kiora's Follower.
I don't like having do nothing combo cards in cube. The kiki jiki thing is fine but time vault just does nothing by itself.
Time Vault actually does have applications outside of being a combo card, but I agree that I would never play it without something to combo with it.
The most common use for Time Vault is to take advantage of board states that are even or favorable to you. If your opponent cannot favorably attack you, skipping your turn actually can give you a significant advantage. Storing that turn up for when you have a favorable attack will give you an extra attack step with little cost to you. Not a lot of people recognize that and never skip their turn when they have Time Vault in play.
Time Vault also allows you to punish your opponent for keeping up Countermagic instead of playing spells. If your opponent passes with 4 lands untapped, and you skip your turn, he just wasted tons of mana and you gained an enormous amount of tempo. It also allows you to force through threats when he does keep countermagic up in the future, since if he keeps it up again, you just play a threat, then tap Time Vault to take another turn, untap all your mana, and play another threat.
Time Vault may be the most incorrectly played card because so many people are unfamiliar with it.
EDIT: Having played with Time Vault for years in my cube (it's been out and in, but mostly in because my playgroup likes it, they actually like it more than I do), I can say this:
Time Vault is actually the most oppressive card in the entire cube. It is not necessarily the strongest, since it requires the combo to come together as well as support cards such as tutors, draw spells, and draw7s, and some of the ways to untap it are expensive.
That being said, when the Time Vault deck comes together, it is easily the best deck at the table.
I have taken it out because it is one of the least interactive decks and ways to win, particularly with Tezzeret the Seeker (which is a one-card combo since it fetches up Time Vault and then combos with it).
Voltaic Key + Time Vault starting hand openers are the quickest games you've ever seen, and that can be fun for everyone involved, but it can also be stupid, like when the deciding game of a finals match is over in 2 minutes.
I keep it in because my playgroup likes it. They actually like it much more than I do, and you should always play with cards according to what your playgroup wants.
I actually became even less fond of the card since we started using Glimpse drafting as our favorite way to 2-man draft. Time Vault decks (especially with low cube counts like 360) come together extremely often. There is no card P1P1 I would take in a Glimpse Draft over Time Vault other than perhaps Black Lotus or Worldknit (Worldknit is particularly insane in Glimpse Drafting). The card is just too bonkers in that format.
If anyone thinks Time Vault is not good enough, especially with all the resources we have access to nowadays to untap it, they are out of their mind.
Time Vault was absolutely not good enough for my powered 360, unless you include several other equally bad cards to have them be barely passable together. It's an awful cube card.
There are two or maybe three cubeworthy ways to untap it, and it won't ever see maindeck play without access to at least two others in the same deck. It's trash.
When's the last time you tested it? Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker alone make it good enough to play at powered 360.
If you do add Voltaic Key to support the package, it gets a lot better as well, since Enlightened Tutor (for instance) can tutor for either part. Voltaic Key is certainly subpar, but it works within the Time Vault deck / combo archetype.
Time Vault was absolutely not good enough for my powered 360, unless you include several other equally bad cards to have them be barely passable together. It's an awful cube card.
There are two or maybe three cubeworthy ways to untap it, and it won't ever see maindeck play without access to at least two others in the same deck. It's trash.
This is just wrong. If your cube is small enough and you fully support it and draft full table, it can be very good. It was almost overpoweringly strong for us. If it came together. Otherwise you end up with a couple of dead picks. If you don't mind the dead picks in a lot of drafts and don't mind that once every couple of drafts you get a incredibly strong deck, then this is a good combo to support.
We drafted it Rochester which probably helps combo a bit, but still. It is strong enough to have its place, but it is not a very balanced archetype. There is little to no overlap with archetypes apart from artefact decks. It also has the problem that some people dislike insta-win combo's like this, but this depends on your group.
Thanks Hicham, our playgroup has definitely experienced what you describe.
I think Rochester actually probably makes combo worse, since you can hate-draft the combo pieces much easier. Glimpse is actually the strongest format for Time Vault IMO (or a 6-8 man). I'm actually one of the players that's not too big on insta-win combos, but my playgroup likes them well-enough, especially Time Vault.
We tried out Splinter Twin for a good bit, and I didn't like how a lot of the cards were just mediocre. With Time Vault, you can just throw it in your cube if you're supporting Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker, and boom, you have a combo archetype that's viable at almost all sizes (I don't know about 720 yet, I'm testing it, but at 540 Time Vault is very strong).
We tried out Splinter Twin for a good bit, and I didn't like how a lot of the cards were just mediocre.
But hey Pestermite is often grabbed by tempo players and Kiki-Jiki, while being vulnerable as heck, still has good synergy with all the ETB guys. Zealous Conscripts also sees play. You're right though, they are mediocre outside the combo - but when it comes together it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside. So guuuud.
We tried out Splinter Twin for a good bit, and I didn't like how a lot of the cards were just mediocre.
But hey Pestermite is often grabbed by tempo players and Kiki-Jiki, while being vulnerable as heck, still has good synergy with all the ETB guys. Zealous Conscripts also sees play. You're right though, they are mediocre outside the combo - but when it comes together it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside. So guuuud.
Yeah, they're okay. I think the combo is fine and think it's playgroup dependant. I definitely don't think the combo is bad or it takes up way too many slots, etc. Our players just didn't seem to like that combo as much as other ones. I'm not sure why my players get sad when I remove Time Vault from the cube, I guess they just like it because we've been playing with it for so long.
When's the last time you tested it? Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker alone make it good enough to play at powered 360.
We found this to not even remotely be the case.
I'll repeat my question: When's the last time you played it? Ral Zarek being a mainstay of the cube really does change things significantly, based on what you're telling me I wouldn't be surprised if the last time you played him was pre-Ral, which would make sense that you have these views, especially as your cube size was larger at that time.
Time Vault (as I described on some other thread) is one of those "Better at 360 than at 3,600" cards.
Glad it worked for you guys. It has been utter garbage in every cube I've ever played it in.
Wtwlf123, I challenge you to add it to your list again at powered 360 to see how it plays. I know you love playing with all the most powerful cards in Magic. I'm extremely confident that you'll change your mind on it in terms of power-level (but not necessarily fun-factor, lol). The deck is honestly straight-up oppressive when it comes together, and you'll find that happens a good amount of the time in Glimpse.
Like I said before, I would only take a certain number of cards that I can count on one hand over Time Vault in a Glimpse draft P1P1.
If you add back in Tezzeret the Seeker, that is enough support (along with Ral Zarek) to make Time Vault valuable. Two targets for it at 360 is when the card is actually good. If you decide to add in Voltaic Key (which I would to initially test it), the card gets to be very oppressive (that's how many I ran for a short time, it was way too much honestly, made the card far too good in glimpse). If you decided to go full-balls-to-the-walls and do Teferi Archmage along with those other three, you would easily see how the card is just straight-up power-level bannable. The most combo pieces I've played with Time Vault at 360 (or anywhere else) has been 3, and at 360, that's one too many, just because I don't want the Time Vault player to be able to consistently get those pieces.
When you're drafting the deck, it's all about tutors, card selection (Preordain, Impulse, etc) and draw 7s. Once you pick up Time Vault, pick up ennablers first over anything else, and these cards second. It's honestly the best deck at the table when you get 2+ enablers and the rest of your deck finds tutors to find your pieces. Counterspells and wraths are also fine cards to pick up, but not over ennablers, tutors, or card selection/draw (in that order).
I'd be really curious to see what your findings are if you decide to test it via Hicham and I's experiences with it. Glimpse is really the perfect environment for it too. I would actually start off with Tezz and Voltaic Key (3 enablers) just to see the power of the deck first-hand, particularly because you're playing at 390 and not really 360. You can scale back if you think the deck is too powerful at that point.
Summary:
Time Vault Enablers:
- Ral Zarek (should be a given in every cube)
- Tezzeret the Seeker is the strongest way to enable the deck (decent in cubes which makes it the next best option)
- Voltaic Key is better than Ral Zarek for the deck, but not as good as Tezzeret, and it also has far fewer applications
- Teferi is the best 4th option for enablers
- Kiora's Follower is also an option, but IMO this shouldn't be played as the other options are better, and this is the only one that you have to give haste or wait a turn with, which makes it the worst enabler, IMO.
* There are other worse options, like Galvanic Key, but I'm not going to go over them. Gatherer advanced search "untap target artifact" or "untap target permanent" if you want to add like 6+ Time Vault enablers to your deck, I guess, whoever is reading this. You are out of your mind for adding that many cards though at any cube size, haha.
- 1 at 360 is doable, but the deck will be mediocre to bad - 2 at 360 makes the deck come alive and become a draftable archetype to a great degree, no matter whether you use Ral + Key or Ral + Tezzeret - 3 at 360 (Ral + Tezz + Key) makes the deck oppressively good and Time Vault a P1P1 windmill slam almost over every other card in the cube (at 540, having 3 enablers is the same as having 2 at 360) - 4 is absurd and I have never gone this high, especially at 360. I think at this point, Time Vault would be the best card in the cube, not close.
I can see not wanting to cut two colorless spells for Vault + Key and a blue card for Tezzeret, but by only switching out three cards in your cube, you're adding an entirely new combo deck to the cube. That's the lowest amount of cards to switch out to gain an entirely new deck that I can think of.
The thing is, some of us want our cards to be playable by themselves and not have varying power levels from game to game. Having cards be dead outside of a combo is simply awful. Forcing combos into cube tends to cause this to happen. Combos that happen naturally like kiki jiki and resto is great but I dont want to play splinter twin in cube.
The thing is, some of us want our cards to be playable by themselves and not have varying power levels from game to game. Having cards be dead outside of a combo is simply awful. Forcing combos into cube tends to cause this to happen. Combos that happen naturally like kiki jiki and resto is great but I dont want to play splinter twin in cube.
In a 45 card CUBE draft pool, you are going to have so many playables you don't know what to do with all of them. Cube is the best format imaginable for adding some cards that just don't do anything unless interacting with other cards, and Time Vault interacts with two very commonly played cards (Ral Zarek / Tezzeret the Seeker). If you add Voltaic Key just to give the deck more density, you are you removing cards from your draft pool that fit into multiple archetypes, but adding an entirely new deck for minimal cost.
Quick look at your cube list shows you're playing the following cards that only fit into one archetype:
Could you be playing some burn spells that fit into more archetypes other than Wildfire? Sure. But you don't because the addition of Wildfire creates a more diverse cube drafting experience and more archetypes.
Even if we don't talk about those arguable cards, there aren't a multitude of decks that those other cards fit into other than the ones they're designed to function in. Having a few cards that create entirely new archetypes just with the addition of 1-2 cards is preferable since it actually gives all your other cards more utility.
In the same way, Time Vault gives a lot more value to your Ral Zarek, Tezzeret the Seeker, Tutors, Card Selection and Card Draw, and especially Draw 7s.
I also noticed you're already playing Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker, so you wouldn't even have to add anything else, although at 540 cards I would definitely add Voltaic Key. You can scale back if you think the deck is too powerful at that point, or add Teferi or Kiora's Follower if you really wanted (although I can speak from experience and say Ral + Tezz + Key is pretty much perfect for Time Vault at 540). At 540, with 3 enablers, the deck is fairly balanced (although still extremely strong when it all comes together).
Time Vault's balanced number of enablers look like this, IMO:
360: 2 enablers
450: 2.5 enablers (I would play 3)
540: 3 enablers
630: 3.5 enablers (I would play 4)
720: 4 enablers
If you want to make Time Vault weaker or stronger, you can adjust the numbers to your liking.
By adding Time Vault + Voltaic Key, you're removing two cards to give your cube an entirely new deck. It's the exact same thing as removing two red cards to add Burning of Xinye + Wildfire.
If you add Voltaic Key just to give the deck more density, you are you removing cards from your draft pool that fit into multiple archetypes, but adding an entirely new deck for minimal cost.
I wouldn't necessarily say its an entirely new deck, you are just helping the artifact based deck out since time vault and voltaic key would only go into decks with a good amount of enablers and tutor effects. Outside of blue based artifact decks, I don't see many other decks that would want them.
While some of the cards you have listed from my list may be narrow in terms of archetypes but they are perfectly fine on their own power level wise. Its not possible to have every single card be an all star in all types of decks. But getting voltaic key by itself is like seeing a pyroblast from the mtgo cube. I understand that you like cards with high power level and that's fine but I like cards that perform consistently regardless of circumstances.
By adding Time Vault + Voltaic Key, you're removing two cards to give your cube an entirely new deck. It's the exact same thing as removing two red cards to add Burning of Xinye + Wildfire.
The thing is, I didn't actually remove anything that would be substantial for these two cards. The removed cards would have been cards on the fringe that I would be meaning to trim anyways.
It's the exact same thing as removing two red cards to add Burning of Xinye + Wildfire.
No, it isn't. It's not like this at all. Both of those cards are playable independently from each other, and they're playable in multiple decks and multiple color combinations.
Quote from Colby »
If you add back in Tezzeret the Seeker, that is enough support (along with Ral Zarek) to make Time Vault valuable.
I don't agree.
Quote from Colby »
360: 2 enablers
Just no. I wouldn't put this in a deck unless I had at least three enablers in the same deck as Vault. Better yet the whole cube. I would want 5-6 enablers at 360, and that would be if I was drafting 6+ players in each event.
You tried to make the exact same argument/numbers for Flash, despite me having tested the card and seeing how narrow the card really is with too few enablers. I have played Time Vault in cube, and there's nowhere close to the number of cards needed to make it consistently playable (unless you want to add in more garbage to make it playable). It doesn't work like Tinker/Natural Order. You need to draw both pieces of the combo. It works more like reanimator, in that you need to draw multiple combo pieces. What you're proposing is like suggesting that Kiki/Twin combo is cube viable with only Kiki and Resto/ZCon. It may randomly happen on occasion, but that's far from making it a reliable combo win condition. And the Vault example is even worse, because the card is worse on its own (by far) than any of the Kiki/Twin pieces. And there's less than half of the enablers for the deck.
If you like it, that's sweet. Go for it. But I'm not going to even entertain the idea of re-testing the combo until the Vault is damn-near a "free" include because there's a glut of already otherwise playable combo pieces. I have played it at 360 w/ 2x enablers and it wasn't even close to being good enough. Not by a mile.
If you add Voltaic Key just to give the deck more density, you are you removing cards from your draft pool that fit into multiple archetypes, but adding an entirely new deck for minimal cost.
I wouldn't necessarily say its an entirely new deck, you are just helping the artifact based deck out since time vault and voltaic key would only go into decks with a good amount of enablers and tutor effects. Outside of blue based artifact decks, I don't see many other decks that would want them.
My entire point is that they don't need an existing deck to fit into. Time Vault decks do look somewhat similar to each other, just like Wildfire decks do, but Wildfire creates a new deck that wasn't there if the card didn't exist. Everyone knows what a Wildfire deck looks like. Mana rocks and stuff that makes Wildfire as asymmetrical as possible. It's an okay deck without Wildfire, but Wildfire is the real main piece of the puzzle and why it encourages people to draft x/5s over other stuff they would play in a very different looking deck.
The same is true with Time Vault.
The thing is, I didn't actually remove anything that would be substantial for these two cards. The removed cards would have been cards on the fringe that I would be meaning to trim anyways.
I think this is missing the point of what I was saying. Wildfire could be replaced by other cards that are playable in a wider variety of decks, but you choose to include Wildfire because it creates a new deck (namely, The Wildfire Deck, which we all know and love).
It's the exact same thing as removing two red cards to add Burning of Xinye + Wildfire.
No, it isn't. It's not like this at all. Both of those cards are playable independently from each other, and they're playable in multiple decks and multiple color combinations.
1) Yes, it is like that, when you take my quote in context. I wasn't arguing that Time Vault is playable independently from an enabler, how could you have possibly thought that's what I was saying?
2) Time Vault + Voltaic Key isn't playable in multiple decks and in multiple color combinations? What? We've had people play them in U/B control decks because they had Vampiric, Demonic, and Imperial Seal. That's like having Time Vault + 4 enablers.
Just no. I wouldn't put this in a deck unless I had at least three enablers in the same deck as Vault. Better yet the whole cube.
Okay? We've played Time Vault for years. I played @ 360 for a longer period of time than you have, and Time Vault was in throughout the entire time. I'm telling you right now, you don't need three enablers in the same deck as Time Vault. All you need is Card Selection, Card Draw, Draw 7s (which really help), Tutors, Time Vault, and a single enabler.
Maybe you don't think it's good because your restrictions on whether you'd play it or not are way too stringent ?
I don't know, but I can tell you for certain you definitely don't need three enablers in the same deck.
I would want 5-6 enablers at 360, and that would be if I was drafting 6+ players in each event.
If you actually played with these numbers, I don't think any other deck would come close to winning against Time Vault.
I don't know how long you played with Time Vault for. I have never seen it in your 450 list or your 360 list, so unless you've been putting Time Vault in your cube and playing with it secretly every draft for the past year or so, I would say I have much more experience with the deck than you do both at 450 and 360, and I'm telling you, your numbers are way off.
You tried to make the exact same argument/numbers for Flash, despite me having tested the card and seeing how narrow the card really is with too few enablers.
1) No, I didn't. I tried to make the exact same numbers? Really? What?
2) This is a completely separate discussion, and I don't have nearly the extensive experience with Flash as I do with Time Vault. For those of you curious what wtwlf123 is talking about, CLICK HERE for the thread.
I have played Time Vault in cube, and there's nowhere close to the number of cards needed to make it consistently playable (unless you want to add in more garbage to make it playable).
The experience I have seen on this thread and with my own playgroup over the course of ~3 years completely contradicts this.
It doesn't work like Tinker/Natural Order. You need to draw both pieces of the combo. It works more like reanimator, in that you need to draw multiple combo pieces.
I never argued that it works like Tinker/Natural Order, and I already know all of these things, not sure why you think I don't.
Also, you don't need to draw both pieces of the combo in some cases. Tezzeret the Seeker allows you to fetch Time Vault and win on your next turn.
What you're proposing is like suggesting that Kiki/Twin combo is cube viable with only Kiki and Resto/ZCon. It may randomly happen on occasion, but that's far from making it a reliable combo win condition. And the Vault example is even worse, because the card is worse on its own (by far) than any of the Kiki/Twin pieces. And there's less than half of the enablers for the deck.
This is a lot of words to put in my mouth.
If you like it, that's sweet. Go for it. But I'm not going to even entertain the idea of re-testing the combo until the Vault is damn-near a "free" include because there's a glut of already otherwise playable combo pieces. I have played it at 360 w/ 2x enablers and it wasn't even close to being good enough. Not by a mile.
I think it's balanced with two enablers because it doesn't happen every draft. When you play with Ral Zarek + Tezzeret the Seeker + Voltaic Key in a 360, Time Vault happens much more frequently since you're increasing the amount of enablers by 50%, which is a big boost.
Out of curiosity: At 540, would you recommend (to me) including Time Vault, even if I also won't include neither Voltaic Key nor Kiora's Follower?
You can certainly try it, but I think at 540 you need at least 3 enablers for it to be a deck sometimes (so it's balanced, you're taking a risk when you pick up Time Vault always, of course). It's going to be slightly weaker at 540 than it is at 360 too, because the other decks don't suffer as much in terms of loss of speed, but the great tutors and draw 7s for it do get more sparse.
If you're including just Tezzeret the Seeker and Ral Zarek, I would think it would NOT be worth including. If you're planning on playing with Teferi, Temporal Archmage in addition to those two other ones, I'd probably give it a shot.
I think those numbers are accurate above, but the larger you go in cube size, the less likely you are to see tutors which definitely help Time Vault out, so maybe my numbers are a little off towards the high-end, but I'm 100% sure they're correct for 360, 450, and 540.
Keep in mind Time Vault isn't something you necessarily go all-in on, even once you pick it up early. The best thing to do, I've found, is treat it like a blue control card and pick up a lot of cards that help you survive while also picking up every relevant tutor, draw spell, card selection spell, and draw 7. Wraths are also really good. The deck is almost never green and is usually three colors, base blue, with black with its secondary color. Red is sometimes the secondary if you want to play in a counterburn shell since it helps you survive longer (also gets you Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune, Ral Zarek mana easier, etc). White is sometimes splashed for Enlightened Tutor.
I mean, most of the time I pick up Time Vault early, I just try to draft blue control and if I get an enabler, I'll start acting like I'm a Time Vault deck, because at that point there is very little chance I'm not running the combo.
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Actually, maybe I'm stumbling onto something with this advice post about decklists:
Wtwlf123, maybe you're not big on Time Vault because you're trying to play it as it's own deck instead of slotting it into a controlling shell that happens to come your way?
What we generally do is take Time Vault early (if it's going late, sometimes the guy that has Ral Zarek already will take it and play it, but that's not a guarantee at all).
If I get a Time Vault early, this is what I'm prioritizing, in this order:
1) Enablers. The only enabler I will wheel is Voltaic Key because I'm sure it will come back around. Occasionally it actually doesn't because someone wants to take it to hedge on getting Time Vault later (this happens more than I'd like to admit, lol, I've lost a lot of Keys this way). If I see a Ral Zarek or a Tezzeret, I am snapping it off immediately.
2) Tutors that can get the pieces. Black tutors are best because they get either piece of the puzzle, but Enlightened Tutor is valuable as well.
3) Draw 7s. Draw 7s are more important than anything else because they accelerate your gameplan way faster than whatever your opponent is doing. They draw you into all the more important pieces -- Time Vault itself, Enablers, and Tutors.
4) Card selection. Preordain, Ponder, Impulse, etc. This stuff is awesome because it's cheap, smooths your draws and mana, and gets you into all the more important stuff above.
5) Mana fixing. You have to remember to make mana fixing highly because most of the time, you're going to be two colors splashing a third. Almost always blue base though.
6) CHEAP card draw. Fact or Fiction is sweet, but it's actually much less relevant in this deck than you might think. You definitely don't want to FoF and reveal both Time Vault and Ral Zarek, haha. Also, waiting until 4 mana when you could have been Impulsing into a Wheel of Fortune a few turns ago is so much worse. I'm not saying FoF is bad in this deck, far from it, but I'll take a Thirst for Knowledge over it every time.
7) Creature removal. Because you're gonna be spending a lot of your mana trying to get through your deck in various ways, you need to be able to deal with your opponent's gameplan. The most frequent deck I see is U/B control, but U/R control also works as a base shell, and I've even seen U/W/r with Enlightened Tutor, Moat, Wraths, Swords, etc. They also had Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune, and no black tutors. I think they had a bunch of good white fliers to use as a main/secondary strategy as well.
9) A solid win con. You have to keep in mind if you're going all-in on Time Vault that you need a way to win. Tezzeret usually takes care of that since you can just swing with a bunch of 5/5s, and Ral Zarek will eventually kill your opponent with Lightning Bolts, but if you just have Vault + Key, you do need a way to win.
10) Your primary (or possibly secondary!) gameplan strategy. Hopefully all of the above stuff already works with whatever strategy you're going for, but you're going to win a lot of games in a Time Vault deck without ever seeing Time Vault. You should plan for it while prioritizing all of the above stuff once you have a single enabler.
There are exceptions to all these rules, like if you get Time Vault in the 2nd pack and you already have an established deck. It's possible to take the Vault and make it work from there, and I've seen everything from near mono-white control to Golgari play Vault+Key. The package actually works well in Reanimator, although it's usually not optimal for either strategy, it can certainly be good there. I've also seen newer players (and even established ones) play VaultKey in aggro decks, but I certainly don't think that really counts, lol. I will make an exception though, I have seen a B/u aggro deck play it where I think it could be justified.
One of the things that I really like about Time Vault is that it's able to be played in so many different decks, as well as just being a deck in-and-of-itself a lot of times if you get it early and want to go balls-deep combo with it.
It's really good too, Time Vault decks make 4-man finals, 6-man finals, 8-man finals, and I think it's one of the best decks (if not the absolute best deck) in Glimpse drafting, especially at 360.
If I were adding the card for the first time, I would try to go over my recommendations for enabler numbers just to make sure the deck comes together a few times in your first few drafts. It definitely doesn't happen every draft, nor should it because it's a nice little rare bonus to the guy who wants to go deep. That's how we've had fun with it for so long, since playing against a Time Vault deck every single draft, to me, is really unfun, especially after we've been doing it for so long.
So, the recommendations I give on numbers are for a balanced play experience that doesn't give Time Vault a giant dose of steroids. But, if you want to go a little overboard to see how it plays in your first few drafts, by all means, go for it.
And we get another finicky, yet combo-able piece, Song of the Dryad. Put it on your Vault then use your Nissa to untap it and of course Acidic Slime to destroy the Song of the Dryad.
And we get another finicky, yet combo-able piece, Song of the Dryad. Put it on your Vault then use your Nissa to untap it and of course Acidic Slime to destroy the Song of the Dryad.
Haha I kid, though possible, it's quite silly.
I lol'd. Yeah, wtwlf123 is definitely running this now, no question.
Wtwlf123, maybe you're not big on Time Vault because you're trying to play it as it's own deck instead of slotting it into a controlling shell that happens to come your way?
No, I'm not a fan of Time Vault in the cube because it's garbage on its own, and it only interacts with two cards that are good enough to cube without it (only 1 of which I actually cube at 360). I'm not a fan of Time Vault because it's been awful in every cube I've ever drafted it in, mine included.
I think it's awesome that it works for you guys. But until we have a ton more free ways to take advantage of it, it won't be coming back.
I don't know how long you played with Time Vault for. I have never seen it in your 450 list or your 360 list, so unless you've been putting Time Vault in your cube and playing with it secretly every draft for the past year or so...
I was just wondering because it's been our experience that you only need 1 enabler to play Time Vault in a deck. Like, if your deck is already going to play Ral Zarek, you have a good shot of just lucking into a Time Vault win. If not, you can pitch it to Thirst for Knowledge and whatnot. It's obviously even more up-that-argument-alley with Tezzeret and whatnot, and this isn't going over all the splashes for tutors you could be doing and whatnot.
Were you testing Time Vault with Tezzeret and Voltaic Key in your 360... or were you testing it with Tezzeret and Ral Zarek, or were you testing it with Ral Zarek and Voltaic Key... ?
You stated this, but I was just wondering if that was your old 360 pre-Ral, or if that was just recently, etc. Just wondering why you've seem to had very different experiences than myself and others.
It was pre Ral. We used Key and Tezz as the two enablers. Which is actually better for the Vault, because it's a better combo card and it can go in more decks. And it still wasn't anywhere close to being good enough.
No, I'm not a fan of Time Vault in the cube because it's garbage on its own, and it only interacts with two cards that are good enough to cube without it (only 1 of which I actually cube at 360). I'm not a fan of Time Vault because it's been awful in every cube I've ever drafted it in, mine included.
That's not true though, it has a level of play to it on its own. I haven't been afraid of giving them the first extra turn if my extra turn is going to be worth more. Usually only against a mana-screwed opponent or situations like if they're mono white with little pressure and I'm holding a sweeper. But it's not like you need the other pieces for it to be a card that does anything. You've got a bit too much tunnel vision in that respect.
Anyways, I love myself good filthy cube cards and combo decks. Some people aren't on board with powerful cards and powerful interactions but that's not why I cube so that's not really an argument to me. Beyond that people seem to have issues with the number of available enablers, but in reality, there's lots. It's infinite with Rings of Brighthearth, Captain of the Mists, Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, and Fatestitcher; cards I haven't often seen mentioned in Time Vault combo discussions and cards that have plenty of play outside of that archetype (that is, if you're trying to employ Time Vault combo in larger cubes -- Tezzeret, Ral, Key, and Kiora's Follower is more than enough for 360). I've also used Pestermite to untap a Vault, and Deceiver Exarch works the same way. The point being, there are many more-than-adequate employable pieces.
On the more narrower spectrum, if you really wanted to support the combo at large sizes, there are options like Aphetto Alchemist, Rimewind Taskmage, Trickster Mage, Mind over Matter, Twiddles, etc etc. I say, if you or your group has no issues with the fundamental play style of the archetype, then there's no good excuse to exclude it at any size.
And we get another finicky, yet combo-able piece, Song of the Dryad. Put it on your Vault then use your Nissa to untap it and of course Acidic Slime to destroy the Song of the Dryad.
Haha I kid, though possible, it's quite silly.
How about, put Song of the Dryads onto the Vault, let the Forest untap, return Song to your hand with Vedalken Mastermind, activate Vault, replay Song? Elaborate process, but it's 3 pieces to make infinite turns. I'd love to make that happen in a cube match. Reminds me of theTime Walk-Eternal Witness-Crystal Shard combo hahaha
Anyways, I love myself good filthy cube cards and combo decks. Some people aren't on board with powerful cards and powerful interactions but that's not why I cube so that's not really an argument to me. Beyond that people seem to have issues with the number of available enablers, but in reality, there's lots. It's infinite with Rings of Brighthearth, Captain of the Mists, Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, and Fatestitcher; cards I haven't often seen mentioned in Time Vault combo discussions and cards that have plenty of play outside of that archetype (that is, if you're trying to employ Time Vault combo in larger cubes -- Tezzeret, Ral, Key, and Kiora's Follower is more than enough for 360). I've also used Pestermite to untap a Vault, and Deceiver Exarch works the same way. The point being, there are many more-than-adequate employable pieces.
Half the cards you mentioned are not even playable power level wise. I want powerful cards and consistency not something that will flop from time to time. These enablers also happen to take up valuable space for other sweet cards.
To be fair, Corporate Noun, wtwlf123 doesn't like playing suboptimal cards just to enable a combo, which I think is his biggest beef with the card (that and apparently he needs 6! enablers at 360, contrary to many of our experiences).
I play Time Vault, but I don't include any cards other obscure enablers than Voltaic Key (which has some merits of its own, but it is honestly only played in Time Vault decks 95% of the time it's played -- the only other time it seems play is when someone has a lot of mana artifacts that produce additional mana and/or they're the artifact deck). Teferi is also going to get added at 720, but I expect him to do work in Storm and U/G Ramp as well as Time Vault.
I've seen Key played in Wildfire once just because they had mana rocks + artifact creatures to untap too, but yeah, without Time Vault there is no way this card would be in any cube I'm building.
----------------
Okay, so here's what I did: I want to get to bed, but I've a little bit of insomnia right now, soo....
PROJECT CHAOS VAULT.
I took out two of wtwlf123's artifacts on cubetutor, and I put in Voltaic Key and Time Vault. I also took out a blue classified card for Tezzeret the Seeker.
EXPERIMENTAL BIAS DISCLOSED: I have a strong bias that Time Vault decks will be playable in wtwlf123's cube.
CHAOS ORB = TIME VAULT. Could be argued I'm favoring Time Vault here since they'd have a way to blow up one of my pieces. Could also be argued most people haven't played with Chaos Orb and so really there's not a better cut here on what I'd do because I don't know if I'd actually take Chaos Orb instead of something else I'd be cutting that's more neutral. Blah.
SUPER SECRET TECH = VOLTAIC KEY. I couldn't find something @ 1 mana that I felt was justified cutting. I also wouldn't have any idea about what things this does in wtwlf123's cube. It actually seems pretty sweet with doing some funky storm stuff (not applicable but fun for me to think about), or actually a lot of stuff this deck wants to do since it's trying to cycle through its deck, so I may actually be slightly weakening my experiment here in favor of NOT including Time Vault.
I feel like cutting two cards people are more unfamiliar with is also better for anyone else who is enjoying reading this as much as I am doing it, haha.
This card isn't gonna help me or hurt me in most Time Vault decks, so I'm fine with this swap for testing purposes.
Also, these cuts aren't really suggestions or anything like that, just giving a quick explanation about why I chose the cards I did for the swaps just for this experiment. I could have cut Ancestral Recall for Tezzeret, but I think Conclave would have produced better results, since then I can't use the Ancestral in my deck.
--------------
METHODS:.
Okay, so I'm gonna do drafts and reload the drafts until I can see ORB. Once I get a draft, I'm not going to cherry pick it for my initial bias, that's dumb.
What I am going to do, however, is reload the draft until I can get a 1st pick Time Vault (Chaos Orb). I know that only 33% of the time this will ever happen to one of the 8 players at the draft. Openly admitting that this will only happen 33% of the time. Got me. Time Vault can still be picked up in the 2nd pack 1st-8th by the player who has a controlling blue deck (or the artifact deck) and be in great position to pick up a late enabler (if 3 are in your cube, like we're assuming above).
In the third pack, Time Vault is obviously much worse. Kind of like Worldknit in that way. I'd love to just do a bunch of drafts and get Time Vault whenever it comes my way, but I figured this would be quicker for me, and better at gathering data on the way it's most often drafted anyway.
--------------
DRAFTS/DECKS:
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until first draft: 10
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until second draft: ~50
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until third draft: 0
First one done. I thought that one turned out really interesting. No idea what I was doing for a while. A lot of those picks were really difficult. I'd like to do commentary but people and dogs are sleeping in my house as I write this. Had all kinds of identity issues there, but I haven't drafted wtlwf123's cube before so I was trying to remember if certain cards were in the draft. Recurring Nightmare there was a frustrating pick, don't know how I talked myself into going it as my base strategy, but luckily it didn't come back to haunt me.
Tons of draft reloads to get Time Vault as my first pick done in between Experiment 1 and Experiment 2. I'm gonna do one more, didn't expect Time Vault to not show up in my opening 15 ever. I saw Black Lotus like 5 times though, once paired with Double Stroke in the #1 and #2 slot, that was pretty funny. I just stuck with doing counterburn with a bunch of enablers. I didn't prioritize artifacts correctly (probably), since I probably forgot I had Tezz when I was looking at my deck. I made a mental note of it, but then didn't remember. Oh well, deck still turned out pretty well. I forget what I took over Dack Fayden, but yeah, maybe a mistake. I dunno. Haha, a literal mis-take.
Came out a little worse, I think. Doesn't have a super awesome gameplan and is really just not that great. Not very happy about it. Still a fine deck, but I think my previous two had better shots of taking down a finals.
Still, pretty happy about the first three drafts. I didn't cherry pick the games, and I actually saved everything I did inbetween drafts so if I had to upload a full version, I could. I had about 10 draft reloads until the first Time Vault appeared, then 50+ for the second one to appear. The third draft had a Time Vault P1P1 the very first draft-tab-click. I don't think I drafted these decks optimally, as I'm not super familiar with anyone's cube except my own.
I'd be comfortable playing any of those decks above, although the first two I would enjoy substantially more.
But that does nothing to show how often the combo is relevant in-game, or how often Vault is a dead card in the draft, or how often the support cards are unused in drafts, or how often one half of the combo whiffs in-game, or any of the other relevant data that showed how utterly terrible Time Vault was in the cube. Just because you can build a deck with 1-2 enablers in it doesn't mean that the combo is actually good, or that the deck itself wouldn't have been better off with something else entirely (which is what we found to clearly be the case). I'd be more comfortable playing those drafted decks with something besides Time Vault/Key in them, until they can go into a deck that has a huge percent chance of going infinite with Vault every time it's drawn, which probably requires somewhere around 4 enablers in the same deck as it.
Your goal with those videos seemed to be showing how often the card can get drafted alongside 1-2 enablers. That does nothing for me, as that wasn't enough enablers to actually make the card perform well in-game.
..........
In decks that have 3 ways to untap Vault (either by raw draw or Tutor) Time Vault is still a completely dead card more than half the times you draw it. It's not until you have 6 or more Tutors/Untap pieces that the number reaches 66% that Vault will be paired with something of value. Oh, and that's assuming that Vault is actually seeded into your opening hand. Raw-drawing the combo is significantly harder. Assembling the combo with Vault, 3 Untap pieces and 2 Tutors that can search every card in the combo only has a 42% success rate, and that's if you assume that one of the drawn pieces is the Vault in every instance (the actual number would likely be under 35%). That's also assuming you draw all the mana necessary to play the untap piece of the combo, which can be up to 5 mana depending on which one it is. So even the nut Time Vault deck with every piece in the cube in it (if you support 3 untap pieces) still fails more times than it succeeds.
Now, when the number in the cube goes up to ~6, so the number in my deck can go to ~4-5 + tutors, things look a lot better. With Vault + 5 combo pieces + 1 Tutor, It at least goes up to 52%, so it works more than half the time. That seems a bit more reasonable to me.
TL;DR- I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
It's worth noting that Teferi gives us another way to combo with Time Vault, all of which IMO are easier to include than Kiora's Follower.
Time Vault combos with the following cards now:
Ral Zarek (should be in everyone's cube)
Tezzeret the Seeker (in a lot of cubes)
Voltaic Key (should only be in your cube if you enjoy giving Time Vault another combo piece, but it does have other applications)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (not an infinite combo, but getting 1-5 free turns is nuts)
Kiora's Follower
Time Vault actually does have applications outside of being a combo card, but I agree that I would never play it without something to combo with it.
The most common use for Time Vault is to take advantage of board states that are even or favorable to you. If your opponent cannot favorably attack you, skipping your turn actually can give you a significant advantage. Storing that turn up for when you have a favorable attack will give you an extra attack step with little cost to you. Not a lot of people recognize that and never skip their turn when they have Time Vault in play.
Time Vault also allows you to punish your opponent for keeping up Countermagic instead of playing spells. If your opponent passes with 4 lands untapped, and you skip your turn, he just wasted tons of mana and you gained an enormous amount of tempo. It also allows you to force through threats when he does keep countermagic up in the future, since if he keeps it up again, you just play a threat, then tap Time Vault to take another turn, untap all your mana, and play another threat.
Time Vault may be the most incorrectly played card because so many people are unfamiliar with it.
EDIT: Having played with Time Vault for years in my cube (it's been out and in, but mostly in because my playgroup likes it, they actually like it more than I do), I can say this:
Time Vault is actually the most oppressive card in the entire cube. It is not necessarily the strongest, since it requires the combo to come together as well as support cards such as tutors, draw spells, and draw7s, and some of the ways to untap it are expensive.
That being said, when the Time Vault deck comes together, it is easily the best deck at the table.
I have taken it out because it is one of the least interactive decks and ways to win, particularly with Tezzeret the Seeker (which is a one-card combo since it fetches up Time Vault and then combos with it).
Voltaic Key + Time Vault starting hand openers are the quickest games you've ever seen, and that can be fun for everyone involved, but it can also be stupid, like when the deciding game of a finals match is over in 2 minutes.
I keep it in because my playgroup likes it. They actually like it much more than I do, and you should always play with cards according to what your playgroup wants.
I actually became even less fond of the card since we started using Glimpse drafting as our favorite way to 2-man draft. Time Vault decks (especially with low cube counts like 360) come together extremely often. There is no card P1P1 I would take in a Glimpse Draft over Time Vault other than perhaps Black Lotus or Worldknit (Worldknit is particularly insane in Glimpse Drafting). The card is just too bonkers in that format.
If anyone thinks Time Vault is not good enough, especially with all the resources we have access to nowadays to untap it, they are out of their mind.
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There are two or maybe three cubeworthy ways to untap it, and it won't ever see maindeck play without access to at least two others in the same deck. It's trash.
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If you do add Voltaic Key to support the package, it gets a lot better as well, since Enlightened Tutor (for instance) can tutor for either part. Voltaic Key is certainly subpar, but it works within the Time Vault deck / combo archetype.
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This is just wrong. If your cube is small enough and you fully support it and draft full table, it can be very good. It was almost overpoweringly strong for us. If it came together. Otherwise you end up with a couple of dead picks. If you don't mind the dead picks in a lot of drafts and don't mind that once every couple of drafts you get a incredibly strong deck, then this is a good combo to support.
We drafted it Rochester which probably helps combo a bit, but still. It is strong enough to have its place, but it is not a very balanced archetype. There is little to no overlap with archetypes apart from artefact decks. It also has the problem that some people dislike insta-win combo's like this, but this depends on your group.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I think Rochester actually probably makes combo worse, since you can hate-draft the combo pieces much easier. Glimpse is actually the strongest format for Time Vault IMO (or a 6-8 man). I'm actually one of the players that's not too big on insta-win combos, but my playgroup likes them well-enough, especially Time Vault.
We tried out Splinter Twin for a good bit, and I didn't like how a lot of the cards were just mediocre. With Time Vault, you can just throw it in your cube if you're supporting Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker, and boom, you have a combo archetype that's viable at almost all sizes (I don't know about 720 yet, I'm testing it, but at 540 Time Vault is very strong).
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We found this to not even remotely be the case.
Glad it worked for you guys. It has been utter garbage in every cube I've ever played it in.
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But hey Pestermite is often grabbed by tempo players and Kiki-Jiki, while being vulnerable as heck, still has good synergy with all the ETB guys. Zealous Conscripts also sees play. You're right though, they are mediocre outside the combo - but when it comes together it gives me that warm fuzzy feeling inside. So guuuud.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/215360
Yeah, they're okay. I think the combo is fine and think it's playgroup dependant. I definitely don't think the combo is bad or it takes up way too many slots, etc. Our players just didn't seem to like that combo as much as other ones. I'm not sure why my players get sad when I remove Time Vault from the cube, I guess they just like it because we've been playing with it for so long.
I'll repeat my question: When's the last time you played it? Ral Zarek being a mainstay of the cube really does change things significantly, based on what you're telling me I wouldn't be surprised if the last time you played him was pre-Ral, which would make sense that you have these views, especially as your cube size was larger at that time.
Time Vault (as I described on some other thread) is one of those "Better at 360 than at 3,600" cards.
Wtwlf123, I challenge you to add it to your list again at powered 360 to see how it plays. I know you love playing with all the most powerful cards in Magic. I'm extremely confident that you'll change your mind on it in terms of power-level (but not necessarily fun-factor, lol). The deck is honestly straight-up oppressive when it comes together, and you'll find that happens a good amount of the time in Glimpse.
Like I said before, I would only take a certain number of cards that I can count on one hand over Time Vault in a Glimpse draft P1P1.
If you add back in Tezzeret the Seeker, that is enough support (along with Ral Zarek) to make Time Vault valuable. Two targets for it at 360 is when the card is actually good. If you decide to add in Voltaic Key (which I would to initially test it), the card gets to be very oppressive (that's how many I ran for a short time, it was way too much honestly, made the card far too good in glimpse). If you decided to go full-balls-to-the-walls and do Teferi Archmage along with those other three, you would easily see how the card is just straight-up power-level bannable. The most combo pieces I've played with Time Vault at 360 (or anywhere else) has been 3, and at 360, that's one too many, just because I don't want the Time Vault player to be able to consistently get those pieces.
When you're drafting the deck, it's all about tutors, card selection (Preordain, Impulse, etc) and draw 7s. Once you pick up Time Vault, pick up ennablers first over anything else, and these cards second. It's honestly the best deck at the table when you get 2+ enablers and the rest of your deck finds tutors to find your pieces. Counterspells and wraths are also fine cards to pick up, but not over ennablers, tutors, or card selection/draw (in that order).
I'd be really curious to see what your findings are if you decide to test it via Hicham and I's experiences with it. Glimpse is really the perfect environment for it too. I would actually start off with Tezz and Voltaic Key (3 enablers) just to see the power of the deck first-hand, particularly because you're playing at 390 and not really 360. You can scale back if you think the deck is too powerful at that point.
Summary:
Time Vault Enablers:
- Ral Zarek (should be a given in every cube)
- Tezzeret the Seeker is the strongest way to enable the deck (decent in cubes which makes it the next best option)
- Voltaic Key is better than Ral Zarek for the deck, but not as good as Tezzeret, and it also has far fewer applications
- Teferi is the best 4th option for enablers
- Kiora's Follower is also an option, but IMO this shouldn't be played as the other options are better, and this is the only one that you have to give haste or wait a turn with, which makes it the worst enabler, IMO.
* There are other worse options, like Galvanic Key, but I'm not going to go over them. Gatherer advanced search "untap target artifact" or "untap target permanent" if you want to add like 6+ Time Vault enablers to your deck, I guess, whoever is reading this. You are out of your mind for adding that many cards though at any cube size, haha.
- 1 at 360 is doable, but the deck will be mediocre to bad
- 2 at 360 makes the deck come alive and become a draftable archetype to a great degree, no matter whether you use Ral + Key or Ral + Tezzeret
- 3 at 360 (Ral + Tezz + Key) makes the deck oppressively good and Time Vault a P1P1 windmill slam almost over every other card in the cube (at 540, having 3 enablers is the same as having 2 at 360)
- 4 is absurd and I have never gone this high, especially at 360. I think at this point, Time Vault would be the best card in the cube, not close.
I can see not wanting to cut two colorless spells for Vault + Key and a blue card for Tezzeret, but by only switching out three cards in your cube, you're adding an entirely new combo deck to the cube. That's the lowest amount of cards to switch out to gain an entirely new deck that I can think of.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/card-and-archetype-discussion/535604-2-card-combos
In a 45 card CUBE draft pool, you are going to have so many playables you don't know what to do with all of them. Cube is the best format imaginable for adding some cards that just don't do anything unless interacting with other cards, and Time Vault interacts with two very commonly played cards (Ral Zarek / Tezzeret the Seeker). If you add Voltaic Key just to give the deck more density, you are you removing cards from your draft pool that fit into multiple archetypes, but adding an entirely new deck for minimal cost.
Quick look at your cube list shows you're playing the following cards that only fit into one archetype:
- Wildfire
- Burning of Xinye
- Tooth and Nail
- Moat
- Pox
- Natural Order (arguable)
- Lightning Angel (arguable)
- Butcher of the Horde (arguable)
- Siege Rhino (arguable)
- Nicol-Bolas Planeswalker (arguable)
Could you be playing some burn spells that fit into more archetypes other than Wildfire? Sure. But you don't because the addition of Wildfire creates a more diverse cube drafting experience and more archetypes.Even if we don't talk about those arguable cards, there aren't a multitude of decks that those other cards fit into other than the ones they're designed to function in. Having a few cards that create entirely new archetypes just with the addition of 1-2 cards is preferable since it actually gives all your other cards more utility.
In the same way, Time Vault gives a lot more value to your Ral Zarek, Tezzeret the Seeker, Tutors, Card Selection and Card Draw, and especially Draw 7s.
I also noticed you're already playing Ral Zarek and Tezzeret the Seeker, so you wouldn't even have to add anything else, although at 540 cards I would definitely add Voltaic Key. You can scale back if you think the deck is too powerful at that point, or add Teferi or Kiora's Follower if you really wanted (although I can speak from experience and say Ral + Tezz + Key is pretty much perfect for Time Vault at 540). At 540, with 3 enablers, the deck is fairly balanced (although still extremely strong when it all comes together).
Time Vault's balanced number of enablers look like this, IMO:
360: 2 enablers
450: 2.5 enablers (I would play 3)
540: 3 enablers
630: 3.5 enablers (I would play 4)
720: 4 enablers
If you want to make Time Vault weaker or stronger, you can adjust the numbers to your liking.
By adding Time Vault + Voltaic Key, you're removing two cards to give your cube an entirely new deck. It's the exact same thing as removing two red cards to add Burning of Xinye + Wildfire.
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I wouldn't necessarily say its an entirely new deck, you are just helping the artifact based deck out since time vault and voltaic key would only go into decks with a good amount of enablers and tutor effects. Outside of blue based artifact decks, I don't see many other decks that would want them.
While some of the cards you have listed from my list may be narrow in terms of archetypes but they are perfectly fine on their own power level wise. Its not possible to have every single card be an all star in all types of decks. But getting voltaic key by itself is like seeing a pyroblast from the mtgo cube. I understand that you like cards with high power level and that's fine but I like cards that perform consistently regardless of circumstances.
The thing is, I didn't actually remove anything that would be substantial for these two cards. The removed cards would have been cards on the fringe that I would be meaning to trim anyways.
I didn't call Wildfire + Burning of Xinye a 2-card-combo at all, because it isn't one, not sure exactly what you took out of my last post.
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No, it isn't. It's not like this at all. Both of those cards are playable independently from each other, and they're playable in multiple decks and multiple color combinations.
I don't agree.
Just no. I wouldn't put this in a deck unless I had at least three enablers in the same deck as Vault. Better yet the whole cube. I would want 5-6 enablers at 360, and that would be if I was drafting 6+ players in each event.
You tried to make the exact same argument/numbers for Flash, despite me having tested the card and seeing how narrow the card really is with too few enablers. I have played Time Vault in cube, and there's nowhere close to the number of cards needed to make it consistently playable (unless you want to add in more garbage to make it playable). It doesn't work like Tinker/Natural Order. You need to draw both pieces of the combo. It works more like reanimator, in that you need to draw multiple combo pieces. What you're proposing is like suggesting that Kiki/Twin combo is cube viable with only Kiki and Resto/ZCon. It may randomly happen on occasion, but that's far from making it a reliable combo win condition. And the Vault example is even worse, because the card is worse on its own (by far) than any of the Kiki/Twin pieces. And there's less than half of the enablers for the deck.
If you like it, that's sweet. Go for it. But I'm not going to even entertain the idea of re-testing the combo until the Vault is damn-near a "free" include because there's a glut of already otherwise playable combo pieces. I have played it at 360 w/ 2x enablers and it wasn't even close to being good enough. Not by a mile.
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My entire point is that they don't need an existing deck to fit into. Time Vault decks do look somewhat similar to each other, just like Wildfire decks do, but Wildfire creates a new deck that wasn't there if the card didn't exist. Everyone knows what a Wildfire deck looks like. Mana rocks and stuff that makes Wildfire as asymmetrical as possible. It's an okay deck without Wildfire, but Wildfire is the real main piece of the puzzle and why it encourages people to draft x/5s over other stuff they would play in a very different looking deck.
The same is true with Time Vault.
I think this is missing the point of what I was saying. Wildfire could be replaced by other cards that are playable in a wider variety of decks, but you choose to include Wildfire because it creates a new deck (namely, The Wildfire Deck, which we all know and love).
1) Yes, it is like that, when you take my quote in context. I wasn't arguing that Time Vault is playable independently from an enabler, how could you have possibly thought that's what I was saying?
2) Time Vault + Voltaic Key isn't playable in multiple decks and in multiple color combinations? What? We've had people play them in U/B control decks because they had Vampiric, Demonic, and Imperial Seal. That's like having Time Vault + 4 enablers.
Okay? We've played Time Vault for years. I played @ 360 for a longer period of time than you have, and Time Vault was in throughout the entire time. I'm telling you right now, you don't need three enablers in the same deck as Time Vault. All you need is Card Selection, Card Draw, Draw 7s (which really help), Tutors, Time Vault, and a single enabler.
Maybe you don't think it's good because your restrictions on whether you'd play it or not are way too stringent ?
I don't know, but I can tell you for certain you definitely don't need three enablers in the same deck.
If you actually played with these numbers, I don't think any other deck would come close to winning against Time Vault.
I don't know how long you played with Time Vault for. I have never seen it in your 450 list or your 360 list, so unless you've been putting Time Vault in your cube and playing with it secretly every draft for the past year or so, I would say I have much more experience with the deck than you do both at 450 and 360, and I'm telling you, your numbers are way off.
1) No, I didn't. I tried to make the exact same numbers? Really? What?
2) This is a completely separate discussion, and I don't have nearly the extensive experience with Flash as I do with Time Vault. For those of you curious what wtwlf123 is talking about, CLICK HERE for the thread.
The experience I have seen on this thread and with my own playgroup over the course of ~3 years completely contradicts this.
I never argued that it works like Tinker/Natural Order, and I already know all of these things, not sure why you think I don't.
Also, you don't need to draw both pieces of the combo in some cases. Tezzeret the Seeker allows you to fetch Time Vault and win on your next turn.
This is a lot of words to put in my mouth.
I think it's balanced with two enablers because it doesn't happen every draft. When you play with Ral Zarek + Tezzeret the Seeker + Voltaic Key in a 360, Time Vault happens much more frequently since you're increasing the amount of enablers by 50%, which is a big boost.
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You can certainly try it, but I think at 540 you need at least 3 enablers for it to be a deck sometimes (so it's balanced, you're taking a risk when you pick up Time Vault always, of course). It's going to be slightly weaker at 540 than it is at 360 too, because the other decks don't suffer as much in terms of loss of speed, but the great tutors and draw 7s for it do get more sparse.
If you're including just Tezzeret the Seeker and Ral Zarek, I would think it would NOT be worth including. If you're planning on playing with Teferi, Temporal Archmage in addition to those two other ones, I'd probably give it a shot.
I think those numbers are accurate above, but the larger you go in cube size, the less likely you are to see tutors which definitely help Time Vault out, so maybe my numbers are a little off towards the high-end, but I'm 100% sure they're correct for 360, 450, and 540.
Keep in mind Time Vault isn't something you necessarily go all-in on, even once you pick it up early. The best thing to do, I've found, is treat it like a blue control card and pick up a lot of cards that help you survive while also picking up every relevant tutor, draw spell, card selection spell, and draw 7. Wraths are also really good. The deck is almost never green and is usually three colors, base blue, with black with its secondary color. Red is sometimes the secondary if you want to play in a counterburn shell since it helps you survive longer (also gets you Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune, Ral Zarek mana easier, etc). White is sometimes splashed for Enlightened Tutor.
I mean, most of the time I pick up Time Vault early, I just try to draft blue control and if I get an enabler, I'll start acting like I'm a Time Vault deck, because at that point there is very little chance I'm not running the combo.
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Actually, maybe I'm stumbling onto something with this advice post about decklists:
Wtwlf123, maybe you're not big on Time Vault because you're trying to play it as it's own deck instead of slotting it into a controlling shell that happens to come your way?
What we generally do is take Time Vault early (if it's going late, sometimes the guy that has Ral Zarek already will take it and play it, but that's not a guarantee at all).
If I get a Time Vault early, this is what I'm prioritizing, in this order:
1) Enablers. The only enabler I will wheel is Voltaic Key because I'm sure it will come back around. Occasionally it actually doesn't because someone wants to take it to hedge on getting Time Vault later (this happens more than I'd like to admit, lol, I've lost a lot of Keys this way). If I see a Ral Zarek or a Tezzeret, I am snapping it off immediately.
2) Tutors that can get the pieces. Black tutors are best because they get either piece of the puzzle, but Enlightened Tutor is valuable as well.
3) Draw 7s. Draw 7s are more important than anything else because they accelerate your gameplan way faster than whatever your opponent is doing. They draw you into all the more important pieces -- Time Vault itself, Enablers, and Tutors.
4) Card selection. Preordain, Ponder, Impulse, etc. This stuff is awesome because it's cheap, smooths your draws and mana, and gets you into all the more important stuff above.
5) Mana fixing. You have to remember to make mana fixing highly because most of the time, you're going to be two colors splashing a third. Almost always blue base though.
6) CHEAP card draw. Fact or Fiction is sweet, but it's actually much less relevant in this deck than you might think. You definitely don't want to FoF and reveal both Time Vault and Ral Zarek, haha. Also, waiting until 4 mana when you could have been Impulsing into a Wheel of Fortune a few turns ago is so much worse. I'm not saying FoF is bad in this deck, far from it, but I'll take a Thirst for Knowledge over it every time.
7) Creature removal. Because you're gonna be spending a lot of your mana trying to get through your deck in various ways, you need to be able to deal with your opponent's gameplan. The most frequent deck I see is U/B control, but U/R control also works as a base shell, and I've even seen U/W/r with Enlightened Tutor, Moat, Wraths, Swords, etc. They also had Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune, and no black tutors. I think they had a bunch of good white fliers to use as a main/secondary strategy as well.
9) A solid win con. You have to keep in mind if you're going all-in on Time Vault that you need a way to win. Tezzeret usually takes care of that since you can just swing with a bunch of 5/5s, and Ral Zarek will eventually kill your opponent with Lightning Bolts, but if you just have Vault + Key, you do need a way to win.
10) Your primary (or possibly secondary!) gameplan strategy. Hopefully all of the above stuff already works with whatever strategy you're going for, but you're going to win a lot of games in a Time Vault deck without ever seeing Time Vault. You should plan for it while prioritizing all of the above stuff once you have a single enabler.
There are exceptions to all these rules, like if you get Time Vault in the 2nd pack and you already have an established deck. It's possible to take the Vault and make it work from there, and I've seen everything from near mono-white control to Golgari play Vault+Key. The package actually works well in Reanimator, although it's usually not optimal for either strategy, it can certainly be good there. I've also seen newer players (and even established ones) play VaultKey in aggro decks, but I certainly don't think that really counts, lol. I will make an exception though, I have seen a B/u aggro deck play it where I think it could be justified.
One of the things that I really like about Time Vault is that it's able to be played in so many different decks, as well as just being a deck in-and-of-itself a lot of times if you get it early and want to go balls-deep combo with it.
It's really good too, Time Vault decks make 4-man finals, 6-man finals, 8-man finals, and I think it's one of the best decks (if not the absolute best deck) in Glimpse drafting, especially at 360.
If I were adding the card for the first time, I would try to go over my recommendations for enabler numbers just to make sure the deck comes together a few times in your first few drafts. It definitely doesn't happen every draft, nor should it because it's a nice little rare bonus to the guy who wants to go deep. That's how we've had fun with it for so long, since playing against a Time Vault deck every single draft, to me, is really unfun, especially after we've been doing it for so long.
So, the recommendations I give on numbers are for a balanced play experience that doesn't give Time Vault a giant dose of steroids. But, if you want to go a little overboard to see how it plays in your first few drafts, by all means, go for it.
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Haha I kid, though possible, it's quite silly.
I lol'd. Yeah, wtwlf123 is definitely running this now, no question.
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No, I'm not a fan of Time Vault in the cube because it's garbage on its own, and it only interacts with two cards that are good enough to cube without it (only 1 of which I actually cube at 360). I'm not a fan of Time Vault because it's been awful in every cube I've ever drafted it in, mine included.
I think it's awesome that it works for you guys. But until we have a ton more free ways to take advantage of it, it won't be coming back.
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Didn't notice you responded. I am curious about when the last time you played it is, as seen here:
And here: I was hoping I could get an answer on this, because:
I was just wondering because it's been our experience that you only need 1 enabler to play Time Vault in a deck. Like, if your deck is already going to play Ral Zarek, you have a good shot of just lucking into a Time Vault win. If not, you can pitch it to Thirst for Knowledge and whatnot. It's obviously even more up-that-argument-alley with Tezzeret and whatnot, and this isn't going over all the splashes for tutors you could be doing and whatnot.
Were you testing Time Vault with Tezzeret and Voltaic Key in your 360... or were you testing it with Tezzeret and Ral Zarek, or were you testing it with Ral Zarek and Voltaic Key... ?
You stated this, but I was just wondering if that was your old 360 pre-Ral, or if that was just recently, etc. Just wondering why you've seem to had very different experiences than myself and others.
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That's not true though, it has a level of play to it on its own. I haven't been afraid of giving them the first extra turn if my extra turn is going to be worth more. Usually only against a mana-screwed opponent or situations like if they're mono white with little pressure and I'm holding a sweeper. But it's not like you need the other pieces for it to be a card that does anything. You've got a bit too much tunnel vision in that respect.
Anyways, I love myself good filthy cube cards and combo decks. Some people aren't on board with powerful cards and powerful interactions but that's not why I cube so that's not really an argument to me. Beyond that people seem to have issues with the number of available enablers, but in reality, there's lots. It's infinite with Rings of Brighthearth, Captain of the Mists, Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, and Fatestitcher; cards I haven't often seen mentioned in Time Vault combo discussions and cards that have plenty of play outside of that archetype (that is, if you're trying to employ Time Vault combo in larger cubes -- Tezzeret, Ral, Key, and Kiora's Follower is more than enough for 360). I've also used Pestermite to untap a Vault, and Deceiver Exarch works the same way. The point being, there are many more-than-adequate employable pieces.
On the more narrower spectrum, if you really wanted to support the combo at large sizes, there are options like Aphetto Alchemist, Rimewind Taskmage, Trickster Mage, Mind over Matter, Twiddles, etc etc. I say, if you or your group has no issues with the fundamental play style of the archetype, then there's no good excuse to exclude it at any size.
How about, put Song of the Dryads onto the Vault, let the Forest untap, return Song to your hand with Vedalken Mastermind, activate Vault, replay Song? Elaborate process, but it's 3 pieces to make infinite turns. I'd love to make that happen in a cube match. Reminds me of theTime Walk-Eternal Witness-Crystal Shard combo hahaha
Half the cards you mentioned are not even playable power level wise. I want powerful cards and consistency not something that will flop from time to time. These enablers also happen to take up valuable space for other sweet cards.
I play Time Vault, but I don't include any cards other obscure enablers than Voltaic Key (which has some merits of its own, but it is honestly only played in Time Vault decks 95% of the time it's played -- the only other time it seems play is when someone has a lot of mana artifacts that produce additional mana and/or they're the artifact deck). Teferi is also going to get added at 720, but I expect him to do work in Storm and U/G Ramp as well as Time Vault.
I've seen Key played in Wildfire once just because they had mana rocks + artifact creatures to untap too, but yeah, without Time Vault there is no way this card would be in any cube I'm building.
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Okay, so here's what I did: I want to get to bed, but I've a little bit of insomnia right now, soo....
PROJECT CHAOS VAULT.
I took out two of wtwlf123's artifacts on cubetutor, and I put in Voltaic Key and Time Vault. I also took out a blue classified card for Tezzeret the Seeker.
EXPERIMENTAL BIAS DISCLOSED: I have a strong bias that Time Vault decks will be playable in wtwlf123's cube.
CHAOS ORB = TIME VAULT. Could be argued I'm favoring Time Vault here since they'd have a way to blow up one of my pieces. Could also be argued most people haven't played with Chaos Orb and so really there's not a better cut here on what I'd do because I don't know if I'd actually take Chaos Orb instead of something else I'd be cutting that's more neutral. Blah.
SUPER SECRET TECH = VOLTAIC KEY. I couldn't find something @ 1 mana that I felt was justified cutting. I also wouldn't have any idea about what things this does in wtwlf123's cube. It actually seems pretty sweet with doing some funky storm stuff (not applicable but fun for me to think about), or actually a lot of stuff this deck wants to do since it's trying to cycle through its deck, so I may actually be slightly weakening my experiment here in favor of NOT including Time Vault.
I feel like cutting two cards people are more unfamiliar with is also better for anyone else who is enjoying reading this as much as I am doing it, haha.
FAERIE CONCLAVE = TEZZERET THE SEEKER.
This card isn't gonna help me or hurt me in most Time Vault decks, so I'm fine with this swap for testing purposes.
Also, these cuts aren't really suggestions or anything like that, just giving a quick explanation about why I chose the cards I did for the swaps just for this experiment. I could have cut Ancestral Recall for Tezzeret, but I think Conclave would have produced better results, since then I can't use the Ancestral in my deck.
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METHODS:.
Okay, so I'm gonna do drafts and reload the drafts until I can see ORB. Once I get a draft, I'm not going to cherry pick it for my initial bias, that's dumb.
What I am going to do, however, is reload the draft until I can get a 1st pick Time Vault (Chaos Orb). I know that only 33% of the time this will ever happen to one of the 8 players at the draft. Openly admitting that this will only happen 33% of the time. Got me. Time Vault can still be picked up in the 2nd pack 1st-8th by the player who has a controlling blue deck (or the artifact deck) and be in great position to pick up a late enabler (if 3 are in your cube, like we're assuming above).
In the third pack, Time Vault is obviously much worse. Kind of like Worldknit in that way. I'd love to just do a bunch of drafts and get Time Vault whenever it comes my way, but I figured this would be quicker for me, and better at gathering data on the way it's most often drafted anyway.
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DRAFTS/DECKS:
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until first draft: 10
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until second draft: ~50
Number of draft reloads (to get Time Vault as 1st pick) until third draft: 0
First draft:
Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gTMM4Wmx20
First one done. I thought that one turned out really interesting. No idea what I was doing for a while. A lot of those picks were really difficult. I'd like to do commentary but people and dogs are sleeping in my house as I write this. Had all kinds of identity issues there, but I haven't drafted wtlwf123's cube before so I was trying to remember if certain cards were in the draft. Recurring Nightmare there was a frustrating pick, don't know how I talked myself into going it as my base strategy, but luckily it didn't come back to haunt me.
Second draft:
Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-wje2SUt0k
Tons of draft reloads to get Time Vault as my first pick done in between Experiment 1 and Experiment 2. I'm gonna do one more, didn't expect Time Vault to not show up in my opening 15 ever. I saw Black Lotus like 5 times though, once paired with Double Stroke in the #1 and #2 slot, that was pretty funny. I just stuck with doing counterburn with a bunch of enablers. I didn't prioritize artifacts correctly (probably), since I probably forgot I had Tezz when I was looking at my deck. I made a mental note of it, but then didn't remember. Oh well, deck still turned out pretty well. I forget what I took over Dack Fayden, but yeah, maybe a mistake. I dunno. Haha, a literal mis-take.
Third draft:
Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5nhKS0fQ_0
Came out a little worse, I think. Doesn't have a super awesome gameplan and is really just not that great. Not very happy about it. Still a fine deck, but I think my previous two had better shots of taking down a finals.
Still, pretty happy about the first three drafts. I didn't cherry pick the games, and I actually saved everything I did inbetween drafts so if I had to upload a full version, I could. I had about 10 draft reloads until the first Time Vault appeared, then 50+ for the second one to appear. The third draft had a Time Vault P1P1 the very first draft-tab-click. I don't think I drafted these decks optimally, as I'm not super familiar with anyone's cube except my own.
I'd be comfortable playing any of those decks above, although the first two I would enjoy substantially more.
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Your goal with those videos seemed to be showing how often the card can get drafted alongside 1-2 enablers. That does nothing for me, as that wasn't enough enablers to actually make the card perform well in-game.
..........
In decks that have 3 ways to untap Vault (either by raw draw or Tutor) Time Vault is still a completely dead card more than half the times you draw it. It's not until you have 6 or more Tutors/Untap pieces that the number reaches 66% that Vault will be paired with something of value. Oh, and that's assuming that Vault is actually seeded into your opening hand. Raw-drawing the combo is significantly harder. Assembling the combo with Vault, 3 Untap pieces and 2 Tutors that can search every card in the combo only has a 42% success rate, and that's if you assume that one of the drawn pieces is the Vault in every instance (the actual number would likely be under 35%). That's also assuming you draw all the mana necessary to play the untap piece of the combo, which can be up to 5 mana depending on which one it is. So even the nut Time Vault deck with every piece in the cube in it (if you support 3 untap pieces) still fails more times than it succeeds.
Now, when the number in the cube goes up to ~6, so the number in my deck can go to ~4-5 + tutors, things look a lot better. With Vault + 5 combo pieces + 1 Tutor, It at least goes up to 52%, so it works more than half the time. That seems a bit more reasonable to me.
TL;DR- I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
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