It seems like it belongs more in an accelerant slot than a threat slot. I wouldn't count Dark Ritual or Mind Stone as threats in deck construction, and that's what Vial is - a mana rock for creatures only
I've been looking at giving vial another shot in my list, and it's for reasons along what your describing. What I'm thinking is that we were misplaying it in its initial run in my cube. We'd play it as one of the 23. I think its proper role is actually in a land slot. Dropping the aggro deck's land count to 15 or 16 while adding in vial seems really powerful. You trade your T2 attack (while you skip your 1-drop on T1, vial drops it into play on T2, thus causing you to sacrifice maybe 2 damage at game's start in favour of greater power in the long haul) into powerful and continued mana advantage, even through your "symmetrical" disruption like geddon and tangle wire.
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I've been looking at giving vial another shot in my list, and it's for reasons along what your describing. What I'm thinking is that we were misplaying it in its initial run in my cube. We'd play it as one of the 23. I think its proper role is actually in a land slot. Dropping the aggro deck's land count to 15 or 16 while adding in vial seems really powerful. You trade your T2 attack (while you skip your 1-drop on T1, vial drops it into play on T2, thus causing you to sacrifice maybe 2 damage at game's start in favour of greater power in the long haul) into powerful and continued mana advantage, even through your "symmetrical" disruption like geddon and tangle wire.
Yes, that's sort of how Vial works in Legacy Goblins, except with Rishadan Port and Wasteland instead of Tangle Wire and Armageddon. It's part of the reason why Aether Vial isn't a house in Modern, because you don't have your lands tied up with other things.
I don't think you can safely bring your land count down to 15, just on the basis of having one Aether Vial in your deck, however. Unfortunately the ideal deck for Aether Vial has as weird curve (see Legacy Goblins and Merfolk) that doesn't quite resemble a normal aggro curve. This means your deck is not as efficient if you don't draw the Aether Vial early. If you want me to elaborate on a good CMC curve for Aether Vial vs a normal aggro curve then please ask.
Vial is one of the more skill testing and rewarding cards in my cube for both draft and play.
There was a movement to cut this card a year or two ago, and I still don't buy that it's actually correct to cut it for power-level reasons. I could see size/section constraints or thematic/environmental problems preventing Vial from seeing play. It's survived in my list through several large transitions which attests to its usefulness. The only reason I would bench it at this point would be to make room for some new blood.
Does anyone still run this? I have an 810 cube and was thinking of revisiting some cards I cut when my cube was much smaller. At what cube level is this viable?
My thought is that this card is perfectly fine at 810. It plays a major role in decks that want to go fast and develop a oversided board by turn 4. A nice versatile 1-drop for cubes that go wide like yours. In fact, there is absolutly no shame to run the card above 720 in all types of cube. Even above 630 in unpowered ones.
AEther Vial is one of those cards that is much stronger when A.) it's played in multiples and B.) it's built very specfically around. I wouldn't play it unless my cube wasn't singleton.
Does anyone still run this? I have an 810 cube and was thinking of revisiting some cards I cut when my cube was much smaller. At what cube level is this viable?
I've played aether vial in constructed a TON. Death and taxes is my go to legacy deck, have dabbled in both merfolk and GW hatebears in modern.
In my quest to make white weenie more competitive I decided to give aether vial a trial run. My theory was that it would be very good in white weenie. White has a lot of great 3 drops, good mana sinks (student of warfare + figure of destiny + equipment) and symmetrical land destuction that vial breaks (armageddon).
I envisioned it mainly as a white only card, with some hope for bant collected company style decks to play it.
A new cuber that we play with LOVES to draft 5 color agro decks. I've seen him AEther vial to great effect multiples times. Flickerwisp with vial is amazing, tidehollow sculler during opponenets draw step was interesting.
It's still relatively early in it's testing, but signs have been very positive. It requires a tight mana curve to be good, so it's a card that might actually be worse as you get larger in your cube size.
Aether vial has been widely dismissed as an unplayable cube card , but I think that view needs to be re-examined. It's a card that has gotten a lot better with time, and one I expect to continue to get better...
My issue with the card is how underwhelming it can be as a top deck in the late game; it really is a card you want on turn 1 with diminishing returns thereafter. Do you plan to up the number of copies in your non-singleton Cube?
My issue with the card is how underwhelming it can be as a top deck in the late game; it really is a card you want on turn 1 with diminishing returns thereafter. Do you plan to up the number of copies in your non-singleton Cube?
It's top deck value is horrendous, for sure. Within any given game it's downside is awful, but it's upside is broken.
If any creature based agro deck was given an indestuctable turn 1 vial every game, that would be an ability on the level of power 9.
In a tight curved creature hand, with a couple mana sinks (rishadan port, man lands, figure of destiny, stoneforge + equipment), the card generates mana at a broken rate.
3 creatures out through vial is ~6 free mana over 3 turns AND those creatures are at instant speed, which has interesting/tricky application AND those creatures dodge counter magic.
I might experiment with 2 some time, as it can let you do some really cool stuff. But not until I'm convinced it's great in white weenie.. I've only seen it being used in 4+ color agro and a bant blink/flash deck.
Collected company functions as aether vial redundency by the way. Both cards want a lot of good 3 drops, lots of creatures that cost 3 or less mana, and they both want creatures that are even better at instant speed (IE flickerwisp, man-o-war).
I never considered its upside broken. There are draws where it's above average, but I would kill for this thing to be a Chrome Mox the vast majority of the time.
It's probably a safe inclusion for 810, where the artifact selection is still a bit shallow.
AEther Vial is one of those cards that is much stronger when A.) it's played in multiples and B.) it's built very specfically around. I wouldn't play it unless my cube wasn't singleton.
I supposed you state A) because if the format is not singleton, you disminish your chances of getting it into play easrly, right? I mean, couldn't we say the same thing about Black Vise for example? Personally, I don't think it's a reason not to run it. At 720 and more size, options for the artifact section start to become a bit shallow and those two 1-drops defitnitly deserve a inclusion at some point.
Aether vial is better in multiples only to the extent of how good the card is in "aether vial decks". Aether vial on turn 1 is so good in those decks, that it's worth running multiple copies to make the probability of that happening rise.
The card is worse in multiples to the extent that having more than 1 in play is generally overkill and leads to diminished returns of any individual vial. It also has anti-synergy with itself in that Vial wants creatures, not more vial. In constructed 3+ Vials in your opening hand is an instant mulligan.
I'm of the belief that modern G/W hatebears is closer to wanting 3 vials main deck than 4. Legacy death and taxes wants 4 , but if it could play 5, I don't think it would.
My definition of better in multiples is the second-third etc copy has greater value in the deck than the first. Or it makes the first copy better. Under this definition, aether vial is worse in multiples, not better.
It is a build around card tho, that's for sure. In my cube, I think enough decks organically come together that would be happy to play an aether vial, such that it wasn't required to be built around.
AEther Vial is one of those cards that is much stronger when A.) it's played in multiples and B.) it's built very specfically around. I wouldn't play it unless my cube wasn't singleton.
I supposed you state A) because if the format is not singleton, you disminish your chances of getting it into play easrly, right? I mean, couldn't we say the same thing about Black Vise for example? Personally, I don't think it's a reason not to run it. At 720 and more size, options for the artifact section start to become a bit shallow and those two 1-drops defitnitly deserve a inclusion at some point.
I can build up to a useful late-game Black Vise with cards like Thalia, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Draw 7's, etc.
[quote from="steve_man »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/193700-aether-vial?comment=36"]AEther Vial is one of those cards that is much stronger when A.) it's played in multiples and B.) it's built very specfically around. I wouldn't play it unless my cube wasn't singleton.
I supposed you state A) because if the format is not singleton, you disminish your chances of getting it into play easrly, right? I mean, couldn't we say the same thing about Black Vise for example? Personally, I don't think it's a reason not to run it. At 720 and more size, options for the artifact section start to become a bit shallow and those two 1-drops defitnitly deserve a inclusion at some point.
I can build up to a useful late-game Black Vise with cards like Thalia, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Draw 7's, etc.
We can also state this for Aether Vial in the late game if it's pair with those same cards, except for the draw 7... Taxes and Geddon effects would provide you the time for it to connect. I think both artifacts are pretty much in the same case about their late game potential.
I've ran this card for a while, not to repeat what has already been said but no one ever drafts it. I can't think of a deck that wants it other than control mirrors. It's still in my list but will probably leave in the next year.
I always felt this card was undervalued in cube. But my cube is slower, so that is likely part of it.
We have found that mana is often in short supply and many midrange/control decks end up with more cards than they can play. An early Aether Vial can drop threats on the board essentially for free at instant speed. This can wreak havoc. And as most decks rely on creatures to win games, I don't really see it as a build around either. Any creature based deck can use it effectively with some simple sequencing of plays.
I don't like this card in aggro though for reasons stated above. I'd rather play a threat. But in decks with CA engines that never have time to play out their hands, vial is really good. And the longer the game goes, the more powerful it is.
Adding Aether Vial to my cube, just thought I'd see how people are feeling about it in 2018. Low cost creatures have been getting better so it seems like that Aether Vial should be getting better as well or am I misunderstanding how the card is played in cube?
I haven't played with Aether Vial before so I'm curious how it plays, is it all about powering out cheap creatures or is it reasonable expect to tick it up to drop more midrange threats?
How important is it to play it on turn 1? My cube isn't super fast and we randomly play 3-man games so it feels like it might not matter as much for me.
So, I LOVE aether vial in general, but I cooled down on it for my cube. The biggest downside was actually the amount of artifact removal floating around ... It takes a few turns on the battlefield to really become a powerhouse of a card... and by then I found It generally was collateral damage for a kologhan's command
I've been looking at giving vial another shot in my list, and it's for reasons along what your describing. What I'm thinking is that we were misplaying it in its initial run in my cube. We'd play it as one of the 23. I think its proper role is actually in a land slot. Dropping the aggro deck's land count to 15 or 16 while adding in vial seems really powerful. You trade your T2 attack (while you skip your 1-drop on T1, vial drops it into play on T2, thus causing you to sacrifice maybe 2 damage at game's start in favour of greater power in the long haul) into powerful and continued mana advantage, even through your "symmetrical" disruption like geddon and tangle wire.
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Yes, that's sort of how Vial works in Legacy Goblins, except with Rishadan Port and Wasteland instead of Tangle Wire and Armageddon. It's part of the reason why Aether Vial isn't a house in Modern, because you don't have your lands tied up with other things.
I don't think you can safely bring your land count down to 15, just on the basis of having one Aether Vial in your deck, however. Unfortunately the ideal deck for Aether Vial has as weird curve (see Legacy Goblins and Merfolk) that doesn't quite resemble a normal aggro curve. This means your deck is not as efficient if you don't draw the Aether Vial early. If you want me to elaborate on a good CMC curve for Aether Vial vs a normal aggro curve then please ask.
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There was a movement to cut this card a year or two ago, and I still don't buy that it's actually correct to cut it for power-level reasons. I could see size/section constraints or thematic/environmental problems preventing Vial from seeing play. It's survived in my list through several large transitions which attests to its usefulness. The only reason I would bench it at this point would be to make room for some new blood.
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I've played aether vial in constructed a TON. Death and taxes is my go to legacy deck, have dabbled in both merfolk and GW hatebears in modern.
In my quest to make white weenie more competitive I decided to give aether vial a trial run. My theory was that it would be very good in white weenie. White has a lot of great 3 drops, good mana sinks (student of warfare + figure of destiny + equipment) and symmetrical land destuction that vial breaks (armageddon).
I envisioned it mainly as a white only card, with some hope for bant collected company style decks to play it.
A new cuber that we play with LOVES to draft 5 color agro decks. I've seen him AEther vial to great effect multiples times. Flickerwisp with vial is amazing, tidehollow sculler during opponenets draw step was interesting.
It's still relatively early in it's testing, but signs have been very positive. It requires a tight mana curve to be good, so it's a card that might actually be worse as you get larger in your cube size.
Aether vial has been widely dismissed as an unplayable cube card , but I think that view needs to be re-examined. It's a card that has gotten a lot better with time, and one I expect to continue to get better...
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It's top deck value is horrendous, for sure. Within any given game it's downside is awful, but it's upside is broken.
If any creature based agro deck was given an indestuctable turn 1 vial every game, that would be an ability on the level of power 9.
In a tight curved creature hand, with a couple mana sinks (rishadan port, man lands, figure of destiny, stoneforge + equipment), the card generates mana at a broken rate.
3 creatures out through vial is ~6 free mana over 3 turns AND those creatures are at instant speed, which has interesting/tricky application AND those creatures dodge counter magic.
I might experiment with 2 some time, as it can let you do some really cool stuff. But not until I'm convinced it's great in white weenie.. I've only seen it being used in 4+ color agro and a bant blink/flash deck.
Collected company functions as aether vial redundency by the way. Both cards want a lot of good 3 drops, lots of creatures that cost 3 or less mana, and they both want creatures that are even better at instant speed (IE flickerwisp, man-o-war).
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It's probably a safe inclusion for 810, where the artifact selection is still a bit shallow.
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I supposed you state A) because if the format is not singleton, you disminish your chances of getting it into play easrly, right? I mean, couldn't we say the same thing about Black Vise for example? Personally, I don't think it's a reason not to run it. At 720 and more size, options for the artifact section start to become a bit shallow and those two 1-drops defitnitly deserve a inclusion at some point.
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The card is worse in multiples to the extent that having more than 1 in play is generally overkill and leads to diminished returns of any individual vial. It also has anti-synergy with itself in that Vial wants creatures, not more vial. In constructed 3+ Vials in your opening hand is an instant mulligan.
I'm of the belief that modern G/W hatebears is closer to wanting 3 vials main deck than 4. Legacy death and taxes wants 4 , but if it could play 5, I don't think it would.
My definition of better in multiples is the second-third etc copy has greater value in the deck than the first. Or it makes the first copy better. Under this definition, aether vial is worse in multiples, not better.
It is a build around card tho, that's for sure. In my cube, I think enough decks organically come together that would be happy to play an aether vial, such that it wasn't required to be built around.
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StaffI can build up to a useful late-game Black Vise with cards like Thalia, Armageddon, Winter Orb, Draw 7's, etc.
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We can also state this for Aether Vial in the late game if it's pair with those same cards, except for the draw 7... Taxes and Geddon effects would provide you the time for it to connect. I think both artifacts are pretty much in the same case about their late game potential.
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We have found that mana is often in short supply and many midrange/control decks end up with more cards than they can play. An early Aether Vial can drop threats on the board essentially for free at instant speed. This can wreak havoc. And as most decks rely on creatures to win games, I don't really see it as a build around either. Any creature based deck can use it effectively with some simple sequencing of plays.
I don't like this card in aggro though for reasons stated above. I'd rather play a threat. But in decks with CA engines that never have time to play out their hands, vial is really good. And the longer the game goes, the more powerful it is.
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I haven't played with Aether Vial before so I'm curious how it plays, is it all about powering out cheap creatures or is it reasonable expect to tick it up to drop more midrange threats?
How important is it to play it on turn 1? My cube isn't super fast and we randomly play 3-man games so it feels like it might not matter as much for me.
Maybe a sampling issue
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