There has been a good bit of discussion on this in the main Gatecrash thread. That seemed to warrant a new thread.
This guy seems right at home in a a cube where players like to build u/b aggro/tempo decks. I've heard it being called a Dark Confidant, Sulfuric Vortex all in one, which certainly seems like an aggro deck dream card. Controlling the effect in nigh impossible in cubes today and many blue decks run a high curve, where a card like this can be more a detriment than a help. Depending on the relative speed of your match-ups, it is entirely possible that the performance of the card can change.
A controversial card to say the least. I, for one, will be testing it out in my 360 since u/b or esper tempo is my own favorite build.
I like this in a low curve grixis aggro or tempo. Maybe even a counter burn with cheap black removal and this guy as a splash.
I have a lot of cheap instants populating the cube now, along with Augur of Bolas, Delver, maybe the extort guy, snapcaster, mindshrieker....... something can be worked out.
I think this guy is the number one card I am most excited about. None of my dimir cards get anyone in my group leaping in that direction, so he would be a real shot in the arm. It will just be a question of how well he works with what is already there.
I'm going to test it. To be honest I've never been excited by Psychatog or Shadowmage Infiltrator, so I'm not going to lose any sleep about either of them leaving.
It's a deck that you want if you're on the beatdown, or even in an evenly paced matchup. You don't play this in a deck with a high curve. You play it in a deck that wants to end the game. This is a 4/4 flier that burns the clock at incredible pace.
Also, if you're the beatdown, both cards and lifeloss are more valuable to you than your opponent. The beatdown deck wants to find the gas to close out the game, and the slower deck in each match wants to stabilize. The slower deck is more likely to be bottlenecked on cards, whereas by Turn 4 an aggro deck should be almost empty handed. This is not a control card. This is a great aggro card where the very nature of your deck breaks the symmetry. Be the beatdown.
I agree completely. This card goes in the deck that gets the most out of sign in blood.
4/4 flying for 4 is no joke; I've seen Moroii in some Cubes that people seem to enjoy.
Add Bob on top of that, and you get something awesome. Unfortunately, letting your opponent Bob is mostly a huge drawback...except when it kills your opponent. I think the color combination is wrong for wanting that sort of 'burn' effect, so I consider this to be a huge drawback.
However, the card seems really fun.
-AA
@Trunkers: I'm guessing you started playing recently (past 3-5 years), am I correct?
[UB aggro is] one of the best archetypes in our cube. That's why we have kept Finkel, because he's not good in control (too easy a target in a deck with few other targets!). He's house in U/B aggro/tempo like this guy.
It's a Conundrum Sphinx which is like a Dark Confidant/Sulfuric Vortex hybrid, and I think it's the perfect curve-topping beater for a combo that wanted one in my cube. Very happy about this guy.
Even when not playing U/B as a 50:50 blend, we regularly splash blue in B/X/u aggro decks for the silly, broken stuff that every deck wants. Grixis aggro is an awesome fit for this sort of card, and I'm happy to play it - I'll probably grab one if I move up to 360.
Obviously if your group doesn't play this sort of deck, it's not worth a slot. That should be obvious really. It doesn't have any particular downside, as your deck should be able to cope with lifeloss. The effect is at worst 'symmetrical' in the aggro mirror match, but running blue gives you a chance to break that even then. Against control or midrange it should bring some pain when your goal is to bring the opponent's life down really fast.
What is the blue aspect of UB aggro in your Cube? Serendib and? Light countermagic?
-AA
Here's all the stuff in my blue section that I've played in aggro:
Judge's Familiar (holding that slot temporarily)
Snapcaster Mage
Looter il-Kor
Phantasmal Image
Man-O'-War
Serendib Efreet
Vendilion Clique
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
Mulldrifter
Mental Misstep
Preordain
Ponder
Mystical Tutor
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Force Spike
Ancestral Recall
Remand
Miscalculation
Mana Leak
Time Walk
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Crystal Shard (a bit iffy)
Tinker
Timetwister
Deep Analysis
Fact or Fiction
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
That's a lot more than half my blue section. And there's stuff like FoW that can make the cut in a pinch too, and Cryptic if I'm very heavy blue is great in aggro. Plus I'm considering adding some of the blue mana denial cards that everyone was discussing in the other threads.
I know there was an era when Finkel and Dr. Teeth were workhorses, but to me they hold no nostalgia and their power level wanes by modern standards.
I think Tog is a great and versatile guy to have on board. Finkel is rated strangely highly by those who proclaim that they don't get U/B tempo. It's really not all that good in control. I like them both a lot.
I think this card is absolutely phenomenal. Specifically if you have an aggro type deck in these colors, the extra card your opponent gets is going to be more than equalized by the card you get, the creature itself, and the damage your opponent is going to take.
I don't think this card is amazing as others have pointed out - he is a 2UB 4/4 flyer that works best in aggressive decks. Definitely not amazing, but certainly not bad.
I'm going to play him at 720 but I don't know how excited I am about him. I don't think I would play him at 540 or below, even though Dimir is a shallow guild. Let's hope for more Dimir cards.
It has a high variance, though. There will be the games where your deck is ripping one 4mana curve topper after the other while your ramp deck opponent reveals land after land. That is going to be annoying
Annoying for the opponent, you mean! I'd love to rip my best spells while my opponent is bricking (assuming a control or midrange matchup, we've already established this card is not what you want against aggro).
If one of the the cards I draw one my turn is bounce/counterspell/removal then I am assuming I will be dealing with whatever my opponent does on their turn plus I am whacking them for 4 in the air + ~2 for the card draw.
I saw game ends in 2-3 turns after you land this guy if they don't have an answer. That is plenty for a 4 drop.
I think I need to mock up some B/U tempo decks and U/R counterburn to try him out.
@goodking -- do you not have Dungeon Geists? We don't have him in right now, but I got owned by him in the MODO cube. Hes good.
Nope, I cut him when I went below 450. He's pretty good, certainly, but the four-drop slot in blue no longer had room for him. He's not a quintessential aggro card, though, so even if I ran him I wouldn't have listed him just now.
Annoying for the opponent, you mean! I'd love to rip my best spells while my opponent is bricking (assuming a control or midrange matchup, we've already established this card is not what you want against aggro).
There are midrange decks where I could envisage running this - but it would be suicidal in control against aggro, unless you're packing serious library manipulation.
I'll probably put this guy in over Psychatog. I personally love 'Tog, but the rest of my group doesn't, and they are always asking me why he's in there and when he'll be taken out. I think the mini-game surrounding this guy will be great tension. Both players revealing off the top, hearts in their throats over what will be revealed, those reveals warping the game dynamics, and forcing hard decisions from both players. Duskmantle Seer is a high impact 4-drop that I think will effect games the way Braids, Hero of Bladehold, and most 5-drops do. It will swing games. How consistent it swings the game in your favor has yet to be seen, and only testing will bear that out.
Those lists I've seen so far are almost all included in my section that I'm already running in blue (minus the power and looter/ninja), and UB tempo/aggro just isn't an archetype that comes up very often. I'm just trying to figure out why that is, if people here say that it happens 'pretty often'. The closest we get is Grixis counter-burny decks, but black always winds up being the smallest part.
I'm also surprised you don't run Dungeon Geists, as that card seems perfect for the tempo of an attacking blue deck (especially combined with clones). You should also consider Sakashima's Student, as UB has lot of creatures that you wouldn't mind having an extra copy on the board.
Re opponent's drawing of cards off of him: I'm seldom, if ever, disappointed to draw extra cards from my opponent's effects. Owling Mine was one of the only times that it sucked.
The point is that you don't need dedicated support to play blue tempo decks. The cards are already in there, and the archetype(s) should be plenty competitive.
Those lists I've seen so far are almost all included in my section that I'm already running in blue (minus the power and looter/ninja), and UB tempo/aggro just isn't an archetype that comes up very often. I'm just trying to figure out why that is, if people here say that it happens 'pretty often'. The closest we get is Grixis counter-burny decks, but black always winds up being the smallest part.
I'm also surprised you don't run Dungeon Geists, as that card seems perfect for the tempo of an attacking blue deck (especially combined with clones). You should also consider Sakashima's Student, as UB has lot of creatures that you wouldn't mind having an extra copy on the board.
-AA
It seems to be fairly easily explained to me. X/u aggro/tempo is my favorite build, and G/U tempo is my buddy's second favorite build behind esper control. I am constantly looking to see if I can build it, and so when I can, I do. If no one is looking for it first and foremost, then something else will pop out at them and they will build that instead. I would guess that they just aren't looking to put those combination of cards together.
You can give it dedicated support if you want, but you don't have to. I've given it 3 slots in my 360. Daze, Stifle, and Standstill, which all function outside of the build in varying degrees.
I'm going to be testing this guy out. In a UB tempo shell, he seems like the nuts. He might be for UB what Geist is for WU (in that they're excellent aggressive cards in an untraditional aggro combination).
Re opponent's drawing of cards off of him: I'm seldom, if ever, disappointed to draw extra cards from my opponent's effects. Owling Mine was one of the only times that it sucked.
-AA
This card does a good owling mine impression all by itself, though. Except it gives you the cards first.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Not to mention the extra damage the Seer puts on as well. With one unfortunate flip right off the bat, they could very well die on your 5th combat step.
I am a bit skeptical that Seer will be any better than a 4/4 flyer, and may be worse. He is obviously awful against aggro and/or most red decks. Also, my blue decks tend to draw more cards than the opponent, so this effect may actually hurt my card advantage (percentage wise). He also all but prohibits me using other life loss cards unless I am running a significant amount of lifegain, which blue doesn't do well. I like that he will most often put you 4 damage up per turn though.
We'll see. He's great against ramp, but my blue black decks usually roll ramp anyway.
He also all but prohibits me using other life loss cards unless I am running a significant amount of lifegain
I don't find this to be the case with Bob. The average amount of damage that these cards do to you is not so great in a correctly built deck, and blue has multiple ways to arrange the library top is it does start becoming an issue.
He's not good in the mirror match (regardless of colour) but very potent against everything else (also regardless of colour). Most cards have a weak matchup, so that doesn't overly concern me. Finkel is substandard against aggro or anything packing red, but he's still a great guy.
This card reminds me of Spellbound Dragon, only at a lower casting cost and you get to keep cards (in exchange for your opponent also getting cards, and you take damage). Debatable whether it'll be too risky in decks that could potentially pack other higher cost spells (blue control cards), but definitely worth the try to further enable UB (or Grixis) tempo.
I see what you did there. That's like a 3rd level joke and awesome.
I want to try this guy out, tho I do wonder, black and blue has good card drawing already, so i'm not sure that is why you run this card. Black has a lot of life for draw effects - bob, phyrexian arena, graveborn muse, bloodgift demon. and blue you know. so really, for something new, we're looking at a 4/4 flyer for 4 is pretty nicely costed and forcing the opponent to draw/lose life. I agree that most cubes have the cards for UB tempo, so this would fit in there nicely at the top.
I don't run blue or black aggro cards, so I think this will be pretty bad in my cube without that kind of shell. I'll pass unless I hear awesome things here in the next few weeks/months
There has been a good bit of discussion on this in the main Gatecrash thread. That seemed to warrant a new thread.
This guy seems right at home in a a cube where players like to build u/b aggro/tempo decks. I've heard it being called a Dark Confidant, Sulfuric Vortex all in one, which certainly seems like an aggro deck dream card. Controlling the effect in nigh impossible in cubes today and many blue decks run a high curve, where a card like this can be more a detriment than a help. Depending on the relative speed of your match-ups, it is entirely possible that the performance of the card can change.
A controversial card to say the least. I, for one, will be testing it out in my 360 since u/b or esper tempo is my own favorite build.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
I have a lot of cheap instants populating the cube now, along with Augur of Bolas, Delver, maybe the extort guy, snapcaster, mindshrieker....... something can be worked out.
I think this guy is the number one card I am most excited about. None of my dimir cards get anyone in my group leaping in that direction, so he would be a real shot in the arm. It will just be a question of how well he works with what is already there.
I agree completely. This card goes in the deck that gets the most out of sign in blood.
Add Bob on top of that, and you get something awesome. Unfortunately, letting your opponent Bob is mostly a huge drawback...except when it kills your opponent. I think the color combination is wrong for wanting that sort of 'burn' effect, so I consider this to be a huge drawback.
However, the card seems really fun.
-AA
@Trunkers: I'm guessing you started playing recently (past 3-5 years), am I correct?
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
Here's my relevant stuff from the thread:
Obviously if your group doesn't play this sort of deck, it's not worth a slot. That should be obvious really. It doesn't have any particular downside, as your deck should be able to cope with lifeloss. The effect is at worst 'symmetrical' in the aggro mirror match, but running blue gives you a chance to break that even then. Against control or midrange it should bring some pain when your goal is to bring the opponent's life down really fast.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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Here's all the stuff in my blue section that I've played in aggro:
Judge's Familiar (holding that slot temporarily)
Snapcaster Mage
Looter il-Kor
Phantasmal Image
Man-O'-War
Serendib Efreet
Vendilion Clique
Glen Elendra Archmage
Sower of Temptation
Mulldrifter
Mental Misstep
Preordain
Ponder
Mystical Tutor
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Force Spike
Ancestral Recall
Remand
Miscalculation
Mana Leak
Time Walk
Counterspell
Mana Drain
Crystal Shard (a bit iffy)
Tinker
Timetwister
Deep Analysis
Fact or Fiction
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
That's a lot more than half my blue section. And there's stuff like FoW that can make the cut in a pinch too, and Cryptic if I'm very heavy blue is great in aggro. Plus I'm considering adding some of the blue mana denial cards that everyone was discussing in the other threads.
I think Tog is a great and versatile guy to have on board. Finkel is rated strangely highly by those who proclaim that they don't get U/B tempo. It's really not all that good in control. I like them both a lot.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'm going to play him at 720 but I don't know how excited I am about him. I don't think I would play him at 540 or below, even though Dimir is a shallow guild. Let's hope for more Dimir cards.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
Annoying for the opponent, you mean! I'd love to rip my best spells while my opponent is bricking (assuming a control or midrange matchup, we've already established this card is not what you want against aggro).
I saw game ends in 2-3 turns after you land this guy if they don't have an answer. That is plenty for a 4 drop.
I think I need to mock up some B/U tempo decks and U/R counterburn to try him out.
Nope, I cut him when I went below 450. He's pretty good, certainly, but the four-drop slot in blue no longer had room for him. He's not a quintessential aggro card, though, so even if I ran him I wouldn't have listed him just now.
There are midrange decks where I could envisage running this - but it would be suicidal in control against aggro, unless you're packing serious library manipulation.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
Those lists I've seen so far are almost all included in my section that I'm already running in blue (minus the power and looter/ninja), and UB tempo/aggro just isn't an archetype that comes up very often. I'm just trying to figure out why that is, if people here say that it happens 'pretty often'. The closest we get is Grixis counter-burny decks, but black always winds up being the smallest part.
I'm also surprised you don't run Dungeon Geists, as that card seems perfect for the tempo of an attacking blue deck (especially combined with clones). You should also consider Sakashima's Student, as UB has lot of creatures that you wouldn't mind having an extra copy on the board.
Re opponent's drawing of cards off of him: I'm seldom, if ever, disappointed to draw extra cards from my opponent's effects. Owling Mine was one of the only times that it sucked.
-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
My Cube: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/9029
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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It seems to be fairly easily explained to me. X/u aggro/tempo is my favorite build, and G/U tempo is my buddy's second favorite build behind esper control. I am constantly looking to see if I can build it, and so when I can, I do. If no one is looking for it first and foremost, then something else will pop out at them and they will build that instead. I would guess that they just aren't looking to put those combination of cards together.
You can give it dedicated support if you want, but you don't have to. I've given it 3 slots in my 360. Daze, Stifle, and Standstill, which all function outside of the build in varying degrees.
360 Unpowered Cube | Cubetutor
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My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
This card does a good owling mine impression all by itself, though. Except it gives you the cards first.
Bobsquare Spongepants FTW.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
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We'll see. He's great against ramp, but my blue black decks usually roll ramp anyway.
I don't find this to be the case with Bob. The average amount of damage that these cards do to you is not so great in a correctly built deck, and blue has multiple ways to arrange the library top is it does start becoming an issue.
He's not good in the mirror match (regardless of colour) but very potent against everything else (also regardless of colour). Most cards have a weak matchup, so that doesn't overly concern me. Finkel is substandard against aggro or anything packing red, but he's still a great guy.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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I see what you did there. That's like a 3rd level joke and awesome.
I want to try this guy out, tho I do wonder, black and blue has good card drawing already, so i'm not sure that is why you run this card. Black has a lot of life for draw effects - bob, phyrexian arena, graveborn muse, bloodgift demon. and blue you know. so really, for something new, we're looking at a 4/4 flyer for 4 is pretty nicely costed and forcing the opponent to draw/lose life. I agree that most cubes have the cards for UB tempo, so this would fit in there nicely at the top.
I don't run blue or black aggro cards, so I think this will be pretty bad in my cube without that kind of shell. I'll pass unless I hear awesome things here in the next few weeks/months
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