While discussing black's role in cube this card was mentioned as a very fun card to build around. I thought before going too deep into discussion on the other thread this card might be a candidate for a SCD thread.
Living Death is a really fun card. It's hard to abuse it perfectly in environments with few sac outlets, but it can certainly be a completely broken spell in some situations. I've been considering re-adding the card to bolster reanimation and combo with Survival/Shaman. It may work out better for me the 2nd time around in a smaller cube.
The issue we had with Living Death was two fold. If you didn't build around it enough, it wasn't the bomb you wanted, and if you built around it too much, your deck suffered when it did not show up. There are some exceptions, like Survival/Shaman, but usually when those cards show up and are active for a few turns, you win most of the games regardless (or at least most of the games Living Death would win you).
I suppose a re-dedication of black to graveyard strategies could help with these issues, so I'll be interested to hear reports.
I run Living Death in my cube for a number of reasons:
Firstly, I support reanimator strategies, and it is a powerful addition to these decks. If it is part of an overall reanimation suite, it does not suffer by being a build-around card, but is part of an overall strategy. In a controlling build it acts as a wrath as well as reanimating creature.
Second, we run a fair bit of multiplayer, and this can completely turn a game around.
Third, it is an iconic card, and gets bonus points because of this.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
We found it to be extremely easy to break the symmetry of Living Death in your favor, hence why the card has never been cut since our cube's birth. It really doesn't require building around to work, just good timing (in much the same way that Balance requires timing).
We've considered cutting it several times, but then someone maindecked it and the card ended up the MVP of the deck - again.
For those who haven't yet, I highly recommend testing it.
I'm personally not a fan of the card; too often my opponent would have sweet cards to bring into play as well, and the chances of that happening increases as the game goes on. I replaced it with Knight of Infamy to bolster black aggro instead; reanimator in black already has a lot of enablers, and this one is too slow and clunky to make it for me.
This is a card I'm really happy about in my cube now, I had a sneak attack/living death deck the other night, it was crazy. If you build your deck right this card can be a monster, I've had success in loam decks with it as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to Cube but don't have one? Check the map if anyone is in your area and get cubing!
Very fond of this card but it's been so shy since I added it! It was a lethal draw the last time I was able to draft it but that was a long time ago. Strange...
The dysergy with discard and creature kill is a big issue for Living Death. It is capable of brutal plays with a bit of care and setup, but it can become a dead card even early on if an opponent discards a big creature which is a natural thing to discard early, particularly if they know you have this or Exhume. I don't think it's near to 360 material. So much fun though.
Its a little bit of effort to pull of a Living Death, but for me it is worth it. If played well, it can win games and I think it warrants a spot in cube. I like where single cards can provide interesting game choices.
There are multiple ways to break the symmetry. Black has graveyard removal in Nezumi Graverobber and multiple "Nekrataals" that kills reanimated creatures once Living Death resolves. Be careful with discard and spot removal though, as they are not synergystic with this sorcery.
I ran into the same problem with this card - I would kill their creatures as black is apt to do (and assume needed to not die) and not want to cast living death because their graveyard was filled more than my own.
The card's in my cube for the situation where you're buried alive three guys and can wipe the board and reanimate your filled graveyard.
Living death is as close to uncuttable as anything in my cube. It's better in a splash deck. I think those running it in heavy black aren't making the most of this card. It works with so many decks. You don't need to build around it. Just play it in any deck that gets a lot of creatures in the graveyard. Aggressive decks, sneak attack decks (as someone mentioned), whatever.
Breaking symmetry is pretty trivial really. Use exile effects, bounce or run things like prison term, fetters, etc. to stall, feed your graveyard however you want, profit. This card is broken.
I would never cut Living Death, both seeing how you can do horribly broken things with it, and it being a pet card of mine, having played a lot with it in constructed back in the day. I would love for Polar Kraken to be viable in cube.
Few cards can turn a game around from dead on board to 1 turn away from winning like this card does, however it comes at the cost of being a dead card in many games.
This is like the balance argument. Living death is only bad if you are winning. All you need is a creature deck for it to be great or broken. It sucks against a reanimator deck but that's it.
That is not the case at all. With your discard / regular spot removal (or worse 187 creatures) you can be in a situation where you are behind on board and still can't use LD.
Only if you build your deck with all those effects and then shove living death in there. That's a boneheaded design decision.
That's like putting jitte in a deck with no creatures. Does that make jitte bad? Sure. Does it mean jitte isn't broken though?
Black's spells and etb creatures almost exclusively consist of discard, reanimation and removal spells - all of which can be counterproductive when you have Living Death. Sure you can draft a deck with neither of these effects, but you are going to miss out on a huge portion of the good black cards and as a 1 off there are no other cubeable cards that reward you for doing so.
So you have to work a little harder to really capitalize on how good the card is. That's exactly why it's a good card. Massive ceiling and you have to put a little thought into exploiting it so it's not an auto include on every deck with black mana.
Everything that is great about cubing is encapsulated in this card. IMO anyway.
Black's spells and etb creatures almost exclusively consist of discard, reanimation and removal spells - all of which can be counterproductive when you have Living Death.
Not so. You can play an ETB removal creature to kill an opponent's creature, then use it to chump block, then, when it is brought back from the 'yard with Living Death it can kill the first creature all over again. Simple.
I continue to find Living Death to be an excellent cube card. You do need to be careful about the deck you put it in. Typically it does best in a combo-reanimator build where you can completely flip the game around. It does not work in value reanimator so well, nor in controlling builds, where you may be using your discard to put your opponent's creatures in the yard for you to reanimate them yourself.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I'd never considered getting this card, but thanks to the latest FTV, I now have a copy - in foil no less. Based on this thread it looks like it's been a controversial build-around card that's worked really well for some cubes and horribly for others.
There are a lot of cube cards that synergize with this well, mostly common cube ca (Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman and other discard outlets, Birthing Pod, sac outlets, Nezumi Graverobber, lots of critters with ETB effects, looter effects) and plenty of cards that are complete nonbos with it (discard, destruction based removal).
What do you guys think about it these days, is it worth a try? Is there anything I should make sure I do or don't have in my cube to make Living Death worth building around?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
It misses the cut for me at 360 right now, but we were enjoying it at 450+. It's a fun and powerful card that can fill a couple of roles, both as black sweeper and as reanimation support card.
We run it at 360 and we're happy with it, although we run a lot of reanimator support. It's right on the boarder for us. We may cut it soon, although the stories it produces are awesome. I'd definitely cube it at 450+
It misses the cut for me at 360 right now, but we were enjoying it at 450+. It's a fun and powerful card that can fill a couple of roles, both as black sweeper and as reanimation support card.
Sgree with wtwlf and Spike. This is a card that is good sweeper for 5, but when setup right, can be EXTREMELY Abusable. Sac Outlets setting up for a turn 5 mega rampage in a green black deck.
A great game example where this came from nowhere was when Opponent played
t1 Lotus Petal and Forest for Lotleth Troll.
T2 Swamp and Night's Whisper
t3 Drop swamp, Play Dark Ritual and discard Griselbrand, Wurmcoil Engine, and Akroma Angel of Wrath - Living Death
OUCH
This is a pretty crazy card. Sometimes it is mass removal, sometimes it is mass reanimation, sometimes it is both. And sometimes you don't want to play it, because your opponent would benefit more from it. It does need some set-up, but if you have some discard effects and some big creatures and if you don't destroy your opponent's best creatures early, Living Death can lead to a massive swing in board presence. Or just win outright if one of your discarded fatties is Maelstrom Wanderer.
While discussing black's role in cube this card was mentioned as a very fun card to build around. I thought before going too deep into discussion on the other thread this card might be a candidate for a SCD thread.
My Peasant Cube: @ mtgsalvation---- @ cubecobra
Living Death is a really fun card. It's hard to abuse it perfectly in environments with few sac outlets, but it can certainly be a completely broken spell in some situations. I've been considering re-adding the card to bolster reanimation and combo with Survival/Shaman. It may work out better for me the 2nd time around in a smaller cube.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I suppose a re-dedication of black to graveyard strategies could help with these issues, so I'll be interested to hear reports.
Firstly, I support reanimator strategies, and it is a powerful addition to these decks. If it is part of an overall reanimation suite, it does not suffer by being a build-around card, but is part of an overall strategy. In a controlling build it acts as a wrath as well as reanimating creature.
Second, we run a fair bit of multiplayer, and this can completely turn a game around.
Third, it is an iconic card, and gets bonus points because of this.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
We've considered cutting it several times, but then someone maindecked it and the card ended up the MVP of the deck - again.
For those who haven't yet, I highly recommend testing it.
Check out the Cube Discord channel here
The Great Cube Map!
My Powered Cube
Draft it here!
Good with Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
There are multiple ways to break the symmetry. Black has graveyard removal in Nezumi Graverobber and multiple "Nekrataals" that kills reanimated creatures once Living Death resolves. Be careful with discard and spot removal though, as they are not synergystic with this sorcery.
The card's in my cube for the situation where you're buried alive three guys and can wipe the board and reanimate your filled graveyard.
360 Uncommons only Cube!
Breaking symmetry is pretty trivial really. Use exile effects, bounce or run things like prison term, fetters, etc. to stall, feed your graveyard however you want, profit. This card is broken.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
This is like the balance argument. Living death is only bad if you are winning. All you need is a creature deck for it to be great or broken. It sucks against a reanimator deck but that's it.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Only if you build your deck with all those effects and then shove living death in there. That's a boneheaded design decision.
That's like putting jitte in a deck with no creatures. Does that make jitte bad? Sure. Does it mean jitte isn't broken though?
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 450 Cube
So you have to work a little harder to really capitalize on how good the card is. That's exactly why it's a good card. Massive ceiling and you have to put a little thought into exploiting it so it's not an auto include on every deck with black mana.
Everything that is great about cubing is encapsulated in this card. IMO anyway.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Not so. You can play an ETB removal creature to kill an opponent's creature, then use it to chump block, then, when it is brought back from the 'yard with Living Death it can kill the first creature all over again. Simple.
I continue to find Living Death to be an excellent cube card. You do need to be careful about the deck you put it in. Typically it does best in a combo-reanimator build where you can completely flip the game around. It does not work in value reanimator so well, nor in controlling builds, where you may be using your discard to put your opponent's creatures in the yard for you to reanimate them yourself.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There are a lot of cube cards that synergize with this well, mostly common cube ca (Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman and other discard outlets, Birthing Pod, sac outlets, Nezumi Graverobber, lots of critters with ETB effects, looter effects) and plenty of cards that are complete nonbos with it (discard, destruction based removal).
What do you guys think about it these days, is it worth a try? Is there anything I should make sure I do or don't have in my cube to make Living Death worth building around?
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Sgree with wtwlf and Spike. This is a card that is good sweeper for 5, but when setup right, can be EXTREMELY Abusable. Sac Outlets setting up for a turn 5 mega rampage in a green black deck.
A great game example where this came from nowhere was when Opponent played
t1 Lotus Petal and Forest for Lotleth Troll.
T2 Swamp and Night's Whisper
t3 Drop swamp, Play Dark Ritual and discard Griselbrand, Wurmcoil Engine, and Akroma Angel of Wrath - Living Death
OUCH
Cube on Cubetutor
Come trade with Puca Trade!, the best place to get those hard to get cards no one else will trade!
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG