Your green aggro deck goes into midrange a bit, but yes, it is still a good example of green aggro.
I'm not sure of the viability of monoG aggro in my cube (450, powered), but it is really a good color in dual or tricolor aggro deck. I don't mind if mono green is weaker than monoW/R/B (or even unplayable) but Gruul, Naya and even Selesnya (which tends to midrange way more) benefits a lot of some green aggro buddy.
I still think that mana elf based green decks with a low curve that aim to end the game as quickly as possible are aggro decks. Sure, they are different from the usual 2/X 1-drop based aggro decks in white, red and black. Blue aggro is very different from those, too. U/X tempo is still an aggressive deck, just as G/X mana elves can be an aggressive deck. Playing mana elves doesn't automatically mean that the deck is a midrange deck. That is determined by the top end of the curve. If the curve ends with a few 4-drops, I would classify it as aggro. If the deck has multiple 4-drops, 5-drops and even 6-drops, then it is midrange.
It's an aggro deck, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a good example here, since it only works due to a very linear mechanic that shows up on only a handful of cards and that will never be relevant for cube.
Playing mana elves doesn't automatically mean that the deck is a midrange deck.
Sure, but add imperious perfect, harmonize, hurricane, bestial menace and sprout swarm. I would not classify this as aggro.
The mono green deck posted earlier is an aggro deck, there is no doubt, but in order to complete his deck the builder had to play 3 mana elves and some midrange cards. It doesn't shock me at all, but it isn't either 100% fitting aggro theme.
To me aggro is simply applying early pressure by curving out with dudes during the first 3-4 turns. How you exactly win, be it with reach, overrun or superior board presence does not matter as long as you are able to capitalize on that early pressure.
The sample list posted above does just that and simply exemplifies a mono green version of that concept.
one of the things I've noticed about the aggro support in my green section at least is the lack of good noncreature aggro support.
Other than the above cards and a few select pump spells (Berserk mostly) there arent too many cards you're happy to see as a green aggro deck.
Sylvan library is a nice one, and it's good everywhere, so bonus.
Fallow Earth is a card I'm testing (Alongside Ice Storm), as a less-backbreaking plow under.
T1: Jungle Lion
T2: Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
T3: Level Up
T4: Bloodbraid Elf into Fallow Earth
Seems like it would be pretty good
But things dry up from there. I've noticed I'm running literally 4 pump spells, 6 if you count overrun (Vines, Berserk, Rancor and Moldervine Cloak) and everything else is ramp or utility
Don't neglect the non-creature half of your green section!
one of the things I've noticed about the aggro support in my green section at least is the lack of good noncreature aggro support.
Other than the above cards and a few select pump spells (Berserk mostly) there arent too many cards you're happy to see as a green aggro deck.
Sylvan library is a nice one, and it's good everywhere, so bonus.
Fallow Earth is a card I'm testing (Alongside Ice Storm), as a less-backbreaking plow under.
T1: Jungle Lion
T2: Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
T3: Level Up
T4: Bloodbraid Elf into Fallow Earth
Seems like it would be pretty good
But things dry up from there. I've noticed I'm running literally 4 pump spells, 6 if you count overrun (Vines, Berserk, Rancor and Moldervine Cloak) and everything else is ramp or utility
Don't neglect the non-creature half of your green section!
I don't think I've seen a non Wake deck play Stunted Growth.
The thing about Berserk is that without pump spells it doesn't give a very big boost for green aggro. Its good with the swords if the one you have isn't pro-green but thats not so much for the damage as the trample to get the Sword effect. I guess you could go all-in on Wild Mongrel with it maybe.
One thing that has puzzled me is the classification of Wild Nacatl. We classify him as straight green. Thats because he is only going to go into an aggro deck and those are almost always going to be GW, GR or GRW. And he is a 2/2+ for G in those decks.
I actually think Green's aggro guys are pretty good as it stands post-RTR without having to dip into anything that makes you hold your nose like Wild Dogs.
I actually think Green's aggro guys are pretty good as it stands post-RTR without having to dip into anything that makes you hold your nose like Wild Dogs.
Well it is and it isn't. Personally I've abandoned the echo guys and rootwallas entirely. The tempo loss on Echo is a big hurt to the curve (Unlike level up guys which let you decide which creature you want, and are a little more worth it)
Basking Rootwalla still perplexes me. G 3/3 champion 2 lands, or G for a 1/1. Both of those are terrible, and the ability to switch back and forth doesn't make either of them good in my opinion.
So throwing out the echo guys and rootwallas, I'm left with the worst-topdeck-ever twins (Ghazan Ogre and Wild Dogs) and Skargaan Pit Skulk, the 1 drop who's actually just Wandering Wolf, mana cost and all.
So we have...what jungle lion left? And Wolfbitten captive? Man I wish he could pump in pieces when flipped.
I think what we need for green aggro to work is for WotC to print green 1 drops for aggro that aren't accellerators or Massive Tempo Losses (Sythe Tiger).
I'm almost sure they won't, but hey. Red 2 drops sucked for ever, basically, and now look what they gave us. I've added 3 from R2R alone
Mono green aggro is pretty lame, but there are plenty of reasons to run green in all kinds of aggro decks, such as: Kird Ape, Loam Lion, Wild Nacatl, Bloodbraid Elf etc. etc. Green's 2-4 drops are typically very good, and fit nicely into lots of aggressive decks.
I have done very well with Naya aggro decks in cube over the last few weeks in particular.
Unlike in constructed, I think BBE is best in aggro for the cube. The body + haste is most relevant there, and it is more likely to be stapled to another threat in that theater.
I only added BBE because it is a standout card in terms of power that could easily end up getting played in an aggro deck and you need green to play it. I'm not sure which deck it is "best" in but its always pretty good at least
I will probably run BBE in any deck that can cast it, but I have found it best in aggro builds as well. Flipping any sort of burn or hasty creature is often just brutal.
Grafted Wargear is one of my favorite cards to cascade into with Bloodbraid. Flip into, equip to Bloodbraid, enjoy your 4-mana 6/4 hasty beater. But yeah, Bloodbraid is good in just about any RG deck. Flipping into burn or a hasty beater is best, but even hitting a ramp spell or equpiment is decent.
Just because you're more likely to hit something cheap with BBE doesn't make it bad in that archetype. That seems like flawed thinking. Hitting any burn or a cheap dude still gives really good value and card advantage, and leaves you more likely to take advantage of the haste. I'll run him in any G/R deck.
I like green aggro, but I think I'm going to keep the 2/x guys out like wild dogs and pouncing jaguar, green aggro is more of a mana dork into 3 drop for me, except jungle lion, who is actually a playable 1 drop green guy. I'll also include the rootwalla variants because they are good as well.
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You can do both: ramp or 2/1 guys. Having both options available is sweet and I'd support both. The mana guys also go into lots of different decks, so you actually had a fair amount of diversity by having a ton of them.
I only mentioned BBE because he's just one of many reasons to run green in your aggro decks, obviously as a curve topper. Kird Ape/Loam Lion/Wild Nacatl should have made my point anyway.
That let you Nacatl, Wolfbitten, Jungle Lion so it is really short in my opinion.
So basically your question would be can you support green aggro without t1 aggro drop. I doubt it, because you have nothing in the spells except some pump, and few t2 to push it.
One question that came to my mind while looking through my list: Can green aggro be supported without cards like Basking Rootwalla, Twinblade Slasher, Pouncing Jaguar or Wild Dogs? I know these are one drops but they just feel so underpowered overall. As mentioned before in this thread: Green aggro is more about the two and three drops and playing mana dorks in aggro decks isnt wrong at all.
So what are your thoughts about this?
it depends on what you mean by aggro. in constructed, the term aggro definitely includes the "turn one birds of paradise, turn two troll ascetic, turn three thrun, the last troll" deck. many people around these parts would consider that midrange, but whatever you call it, it's different than the "turn one jungle lion, turn two strangleroot geist" type of aggro. i would guess that almost every cube supports the former, and many do not support the latter.
i've come to feel the same about the cards you list in your post, at least at 360. i don't run any of them. i do, however, run jungle lion, dryad millitant, kird ape, loam lion, and wild nacatl. i feel comfortable with those includes showing up in zoo decks and supporting green aggro that way. excluding them results in too little aggro support in my experience. when we get more stuff as good as jungle lion (and dryad millitant indicates it's certainly a possibility, hopefully in gatecrash) i will happily include it for those decks and move further toward outright green aggro support. but i don't feel like i need wild dogs, basking rootwalla, etc right now.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
I splash green for cards like BBE and Sylvan Library as well, but I think merely splashing green even to support 1G cards is much easier than actually having a Forest for Kird Ape.
I like the idea of a Naya Zoo deck, but I don't think that it is worth the strain on the mana base. Consequently I cut the Jungle Lion and Basking Rootwalla green one drops as well as the Kird Brothers and flag-bearer Wild Nacatl. I am not fundamentally opposed to bring back Naya Zoo, but currently things are shaping up nicely for very consistent pools of aggro one drops in white, red and black. In combination with more blue tempo support and the green T1 elf T2 three drop plan, there is enough aggression going on.
One question that came to my mind while looking through my list: Can green aggro be supported without cards like Basking Rootwalla, Twinblade Slasher, Pouncing Jaguar or Wild Dogs? I know these are one drops but they just feel so underpowered overall. As mentioned before in this thread: Green aggro is more about the two and three drops and playing mana dorks in aggro decks isnt wrong at all.
So what are your thoughts about this?
I don't play any green 1drops that don't tap for mana. Green gets played in aggro decks in my cube all the time. They fit into two different types.
1) Evenly mixed green and another color. These decks run the manadorks to try and do bigger things fast, but still don't run a bunch of 5 drops. Usually they're trying to go T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 3drop, T3, pair of 2drops. These are the decks Strangleroot Geist is at his best in. These also tend to run more LD than my other aggro decks because they can play Ice Storm on T2.
2) Another color with a splash of green that isn't reliable on T1. So a base black aggro deck with Dreg Mangler, Sylvan Library, etc., or a base red one with Bloodbraid Elf, Rancor, etc.
Both styles are legitimate aggro decks that are a lot of fun, and neither honestly seems to miss Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar. When I say "I don't support green aggro", what I really mean is "I don't run Wild Nacatl, Pouncing Jaguar, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs, Basking Rootwalla, Twinblade Slasher, Loam Lion, or Wolfbitten Captive" I DO actually run Kird Ape, because R/g aggro is much more prevalent than W/g aggro, so I find him to be a lot better card.
I'm not sure of the viability of monoG aggro in my cube (450, powered), but it is really a good color in dual or tricolor aggro deck. I don't mind if mono green is weaker than monoW/R/B (or even unplayable) but Gruul, Naya and even Selesnya (which tends to midrange way more) benefits a lot of some green aggro buddy.
It's an aggro deck, but I wasn't sure if it would actually be a good example here, since it only works due to a very linear mechanic that shows up on only a handful of cards and that will never be relevant for cube.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Sure, but add imperious perfect, harmonize, hurricane, bestial menace and sprout swarm. I would not classify this as aggro.
The mono green deck posted earlier is an aggro deck, there is no doubt, but in order to complete his deck the builder had to play 3 mana elves and some midrange cards. It doesn't shock me at all, but it isn't either 100% fitting aggro theme.
The sample list posted above does just that and simply exemplifies a mono green version of that concept.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/654861-lyzolda-blood-fiend
one of the things I've noticed about the aggro support in my green section at least is the lack of good noncreature aggro support.
Other than the above cards and a few select pump spells (Berserk mostly) there arent too many cards you're happy to see as a green aggro deck.
Sylvan library is a nice one, and it's good everywhere, so bonus.
Fallow Earth is a card I'm testing (Alongside Ice Storm), as a less-backbreaking plow under.
T1: Jungle Lion
T2: Beastbreaker of Bala Ged
T3: Level Up
T4: Bloodbraid Elf into Fallow Earth
Seems like it would be pretty good
But things dry up from there. I've noticed I'm running literally 4 pump spells, 6 if you count overrun (Vines, Berserk, Rancor and Moldervine Cloak) and everything else is ramp or utility
Don't neglect the non-creature half of your green section!
I don't think I've seen a non Wake deck play Stunted Growth.
The thing about Berserk is that without pump spells it doesn't give a very big boost for green aggro. Its good with the swords if the one you have isn't pro-green but thats not so much for the damage as the trample to get the Sword effect. I guess you could go all-in on Wild Mongrel with it maybe.
One thing that has puzzled me is the classification of Wild Nacatl. We classify him as straight green. Thats because he is only going to go into an aggro deck and those are almost always going to be GW, GR or GRW. And he is a 2/2+ for G in those decks.
I actually think Green's aggro guys are pretty good as it stands post-RTR without having to dip into anything that makes you hold your nose like Wild Dogs.
Well it is and it isn't. Personally I've abandoned the echo guys and rootwallas entirely. The tempo loss on Echo is a big hurt to the curve (Unlike level up guys which let you decide which creature you want, and are a little more worth it)
Basking Rootwalla still perplexes me. G 3/3 champion 2 lands, or G for a 1/1. Both of those are terrible, and the ability to switch back and forth doesn't make either of them good in my opinion.
So throwing out the echo guys and rootwallas, I'm left with the worst-topdeck-ever twins (Ghazan Ogre and Wild Dogs) and Skargaan Pit Skulk, the 1 drop who's actually just Wandering Wolf, mana cost and all.
So we have...what jungle lion left? And Wolfbitten captive? Man I wish he could pump in pieces when flipped.
I think what we need for green aggro to work is for WotC to print green 1 drops for aggro that aren't accellerators or Massive Tempo Losses (Sythe Tiger).
I'm almost sure they won't, but hey. Red 2 drops sucked for ever, basically, and now look what they gave us. I've added 3 from R2R alone
I have done very well with Naya aggro decks in cube over the last few weeks in particular.
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So basically your question would be can you support green aggro without t1 aggro drop. I doubt it, because you have nothing in the spells except some pump, and few t2 to push it.
it depends on what you mean by aggro. in constructed, the term aggro definitely includes the "turn one birds of paradise, turn two troll ascetic, turn three thrun, the last troll" deck. many people around these parts would consider that midrange, but whatever you call it, it's different than the "turn one jungle lion, turn two strangleroot geist" type of aggro. i would guess that almost every cube supports the former, and many do not support the latter.
i've come to feel the same about the cards you list in your post, at least at 360. i don't run any of them. i do, however, run jungle lion, dryad millitant, kird ape, loam lion, and wild nacatl. i feel comfortable with those includes showing up in zoo decks and supporting green aggro that way. excluding them results in too little aggro support in my experience. when we get more stuff as good as jungle lion (and dryad millitant indicates it's certainly a possibility, hopefully in gatecrash) i will happily include it for those decks and move further toward outright green aggro support. but i don't feel like i need wild dogs, basking rootwalla, etc right now.
I like the idea of a Naya Zoo deck, but I don't think that it is worth the strain on the mana base. Consequently I cut the Jungle Lion and Basking Rootwalla green one drops as well as the Kird Brothers and flag-bearer Wild Nacatl. I am not fundamentally opposed to bring back Naya Zoo, but currently things are shaping up nicely for very consistent pools of aggro one drops in white, red and black. In combination with more blue tempo support and the green T1 elf T2 three drop plan, there is enough aggression going on.
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Naya aggro is one of my favorite archetypes. Good to see you brought those guys back.
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I don't play any green 1drops that don't tap for mana. Green gets played in aggro decks in my cube all the time. They fit into two different types.
1) Evenly mixed green and another color. These decks run the manadorks to try and do bigger things fast, but still don't run a bunch of 5 drops. Usually they're trying to go T1 Llanowar Elves, T2 3drop, T3, pair of 2drops. These are the decks Strangleroot Geist is at his best in. These also tend to run more LD than my other aggro decks because they can play Ice Storm on T2.
2) Another color with a splash of green that isn't reliable on T1. So a base black aggro deck with Dreg Mangler, Sylvan Library, etc., or a base red one with Bloodbraid Elf, Rancor, etc.
Both styles are legitimate aggro decks that are a lot of fun, and neither honestly seems to miss Wild Dogs and Pouncing Jaguar. When I say "I don't support green aggro", what I really mean is "I don't run Wild Nacatl, Pouncing Jaguar, Jungle Lion, Wild Dogs, Basking Rootwalla, Twinblade Slasher, Loam Lion, or Wolfbitten Captive" I DO actually run Kird Ape, because R/g aggro is much more prevalent than W/g aggro, so I find him to be a lot better card.
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