I think this guy has potential, but I'm still not sold yet. I just can't tell how many activations one needs to get off this guy to be worth it (considering the first ability is probably going to be relatively rare). What do you all think?
It depends on what you mean by worth it. If I get to exile a land and ramp into a 4-drop early, does that make it worth it? What if the creature I exile is against reanimator or has persist/undying? What if the spell I exile has flashback?
I don't think you can quantify its impact numerically. I think we need to playtest it with individual cube groups and see how impactful even a handful of activations can be.
It depends on what you mean by worth it. If I get to exile a land and ramp into a 4-drop early, does that make it worth it? What if the creature I exile is against reanimator or has persist/undying? What if the spell I exile has flashback?
I don't think you can quantify its impact numerically. I think we need to playtest it with individual cube groups and see how impactful even a handful of activations can be.
I think this is one of those cards that will really only show its true colors in the heat of battle if you will. I'm expecting good things considering my experience in the past involving cards like this.
I'm not seeing it either. It can't be used as a ramp creature reliably, and I wouldn't be stoked to include it in an aggro deck. What decks would want this?
I'm not seeing it either. It can't be used as a ramp creature reliably, and I wouldn't be stoked to include it in an aggro deck. What decks would want this?
Would you include Grim Lavamancer in an aggro deck? How about one that can go in any black or green aggro deck, has more abilities, protection from Doomblade/Snuff Out/etc, and can hate on strategies better, and requires less conditions for activation, but can't target creatures?
What about a midranged deck that can use all three modes to some extent? If it gets the early ramp off of him then cool, if it gets some reach from him than cool, if it gains life to survive some early aggro so that it can reach the right stage of the game then cool too.
How about control where this guy is a kind of 10 turn, or less, clock that can sometimes ramp and make good use of your used up spells, while also being cheap enough to be played and defended early and mid game. He turns UB into UB counter burn easily.
Would you include Grim Lavamancer in an aggro deck? How about one that can go in any black or green aggro deck, has more abilities, protection from Doomblade/Snuff Out/etc, and can hate on strategies better, and requires less conditions for activation, but can't target creatures?
I personally wouldn't run a Grim Lavamancer that could not target creatures. And this one can't go into just any green aggro deck, only one that at least splashes black.
I wouldn't play it in a non-green deck because it doesn't target it creatures. I wouldn't play it in a non-black deck because it's worthless. So I would only pick it up if I am in the BG combination (virtual gold card during draft), even though it's easier to play once in-game than a gold card. But if its taking up a virtual gold slot in draft, it should do something pretty good, not just be better than grim in some narrow ways and worse than grim in other, quite critical, ways.
It depends on what you mean by worth it. If I get to exile a land and ramp into a 4-drop early, does that make it worth it? What if the creature I exile is against reanimator or has persist/undying? What if the spell I exile has flashback?
I don't think you can quantify its impact numerically. I think we need to playtest it with individual cube groups and see how impactful even a handful of activations can be.
I meant worth a card. Like how much does this guy have to do to be worth a spot in the deck and a card in the game. There will be times it's awesome like in your examples, but I just want to think about the average to worst case scenario. If this guy was a black sulfuric vortex, he'd be sweet, but will he work that way enough of the time?
I personally wouldn't run a Grim Lavamancer that could not target creatures. And this one can't go into just any green aggro deck, only one that at least splashes black.
I wouldn't play it in a non-green deck because it doesn't target it creatures. I wouldn't play it in a non-black deck because it's worthless. So I would only pick it up if I am in the BG combination (virtual gold card during draft), even though it's easier to play once in-game than a gold card. But if its taking up a virtual gold slot in draft, it should do something pretty good, not just be better than grim in some narrow ways and worse than grim in other, quite critical, ways.
This pretty much says it all. This card is a pretty bad comparison to grim lavamancer consider grim lavamancer can hit creatures. This guy falls short in three areas.
1) his ramp ability is unreliable and very likely to never be used.
2) I wouldn't play him as a G 1/2 Gtap, exile a creature card: gain two life. This is a terrible savaging ooze.
3) I wouldn't play him as a B 1/2 Btap, exile an instant or sorcery: target player loses two life. This doesn't seem consistent enough for aggro and isn't worth it as a graveyard hate ability.
so I would only play him in (B/G) and that guild is way to tight for a situational grave hate, situational aggressive 1/2
The mana ramp is mostly for modern (and to a lesser extent Legacy), not for cube. Without decks full of fetch lands, it is highly unlikely that any player will have a land in his graveyard during your second turn.
It is a maindeckable grave hate card though, something we don't have that many of yet. I like how he combines hating on your opponent's graveyard with reusing stuff from your own graveyard. Among two yards, there should always be something to do with his second and third ability.
It's a minor thing, but I'm pretty sure the mana ramp ability is going to be much more useful in legacy than in modern. A single Wasteland gives it fuel for two turns, it seems almost as reliable as Birds of Paradise, I'm not even kidding. Add to that it hates on Knight of the Reliquary, crucible and Life from the Loam, it seems like a house in legacy from what I know about the format.
In cube, I'm not that sure. I wouldn't want to cube it for any of the abilities alone, but maybe the combination makes it good enough.
Yeah, I'm definitely not seeing the extreme love for this guy. His modes are decent, but they're all conditional on removing specific things from graveyards. Fetchlands and Strip/Waste are the only way to get this guy active for mana producing early on, and it isn't repeatable.
To get all his abilities, you need to be green/black too, instead of just red. Most importantly - he can't kill creatures, so the comparison to Grim Lavamancer is far-fetched.
I like him, but I'm not windmill slamming this guy in almost any deck - I think Vraska will be better overall. Just a prediction.
First playtest shows good things. I'll keep you updated after I have more data.
A 1-drop that gives you value from every dead land, instant, sorcery and creature is pretty good. Especially when it hoses reanimation, flashback, graveyard value creatures and loam/crucible strategies at the same time. The repeatable mid/late game life gain is good, and the reach is valuable. It's NOT a Grim Lavamancer. It's something quite different. A cheap early drop that WILL get its value back over the course of the game. The ramp is unreliable, but usually available for at least 1-2 activations during the game. The life-loss ability is REALLY good. Lots of reach, and easy to activate. And the repeatable life-gain should not be ignored. Not to mention all the times where the exiling is relevant (reanimation, persist, undying, flashback, Will, Snapcaster, Genesis, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, loam/crucible, regrowth effects, Vengevine, Eternal Dragon, SQUEE) ...this dude is maindeckable hate against a TON of good cube cards. Not to mention that it adds extra value to almost ALL of your dead/discarded cards.
Is it a ridiculous bomb? No. It's not even as good as a black Lavamancer. But it is one hell of a utility 1-drop for Golgari decks.
I think everyone will have very different experiences with this card. The strength of this card really depends on the configuration of your cube. Do you typically 8-man with a lot of reanimator or loam decks? Do you run a lot of the build-around effects like Squee?
It's main function, IMO, is as a flexible hate-mons that can do some things when there's nothing to hate. That's not too bad. Part of my hesitance is that I don't want an essentially-gold card to be a hate-mons, especially since I don't 8-man often and thus don't need hate-effects quite as much.
I really like this is a card to hose graveyard shenagins. It's good having cards that are phenomenal sideboard cards that are OK to main deck in cube, and this fits that bill quite well.
Unfortunatly, If your opponent isn't interacting with his graveyard he's pretty meh.
As far as raw power goes, he doesn't come close to cracking top 5 in Golgari IMO.
However, maindeckable GY hate is very rare AND important. This should add some inclusion value.
I classify most hybrids indepdently of the MC section, but I don't think you could do it with this guy. You really need to use both his green and black mana abilities to be up to playable potential.
I didn't like this guy at first look, but I thought back to how small repeatable effects can be very powerful in cube and this guy seems much better. Might replace spiritmonger with him.
But it is one hell of a utility 1-drop for Golgari decks.
I think my affinity for 1 drop creatures is well-documented by this point, so I'll definitely be playing with him. I just don't think he's 360 material, might not even be 450 material.
I think my affinity for 1 drop creatures is well-documented by this point, so I'll definitely be playing with him. I just don't think he's 360 material, might not even be 450 material.
I agree. I think you need to be running at least 5 Golgari cards before considering him. But I do run 5 Golgari cards, so I've been testing him out in the spot Vraska was going to take, and it's been pretty good so far.
Quote from Bonda »
Agree. I think he might be the 7th best Golgari card if you don't count signets, talismans and Keystones (or whatever they're called).
Even if you do count the rocks, I think this is the 5th best card in Golgari. Maybe the 6th, but other than that, it's not really close. This 1-drop does a TON of stuff.
Probably less impressive in a 810 card cube where all the cards he's good with/against are so spread out.
When i look at this card, I see stoneforge mystic and snapcaster level good. I'm not preordering these, but they are steadily rising in price. Although i got myself hyped off vexing devil. I really think this guy is the stone cold nuts. I wouldnt be unhappy if i got 5 of him at the prerelease. I want to put 5 of him in my cube. He is in my opinion the best Golgari card in RTR, because he is extremely versatile, and if cards are in the graveyard he is good at what he does. (and i mean a 1 drop that carries well into late game is awesome). I think he will be heavily played in each format.
He was really great in my first draft with him. Repeatedly doing awesome stuff and always being valuable. In these last two drafts, he was far less exciting. Not finding a land until it was irrelevant, having the reach be inconsistent and not particularly valuable, or just generally not being impacting enough; even when judged as a 1-drop. My cube group likes him, but prefers Vraska for that #5 Golgari slot after the extended testing. Looks like we're going back to Vraska.
Seems like you would definitely need to increase the number of fetches in your cube to run this guy well.
Theres Evo wilds/ Terramorphic, zendikar and onslaught fetches, alara block fetches to choose from. Really only the second option doesn't self-disrupt in a way, though. Hmm...
I would not cement his value on his mana fixing ability. It's just not consistent at all. The next two abilities are very good. However, while he is an early drop, he requires the graveyards to fill up, and will feel really slow. But once his abilities get online, they are pretty awesome (in the right deck, and the right matchup).
As wtwlf noted in his testing, the shaman is quite swingy in his usefulness. More of build around me card than raw power.
Which leaves the question: Do you want Vraska's raw power, or his flexibility. I really want this guy to be the dude, and I really want an awesome hybrid 1 drop for my aggro decks, with the potential for awesome late game reach. But if that comes with a lot of whiffs in usefulness (as some testing is showing), he may not cut it. =(
It depends on what you mean by worth it. If I get to exile a land and ramp into a 4-drop early, does that make it worth it? What if the creature I exile is against reanimator or has persist/undying? What if the spell I exile has flashback?
I don't think you can quantify its impact numerically. I think we need to playtest it with individual cube groups and see how impactful even a handful of activations can be.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think this is one of those cards that will really only show its true colors in the heat of battle if you will. I'm expecting good things considering my experience in the past involving cards like this.
http://hgcube.blogspot.com/ (help me Make my Custom CUBE!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=382498
The "Make a Proxy Thread
Redit Proxy Article "current gallery"
MY LEGACY ALTERS
Would you include Grim Lavamancer in an aggro deck? How about one that can go in any black or green aggro deck, has more abilities, protection from Doomblade/Snuff Out/etc, and can hate on strategies better, and requires less conditions for activation, but can't target creatures?
What about a midranged deck that can use all three modes to some extent? If it gets the early ramp off of him then cool, if it gets some reach from him than cool, if it gains life to survive some early aggro so that it can reach the right stage of the game then cool too.
How about control where this guy is a kind of 10 turn, or less, clock that can sometimes ramp and make good use of your used up spells, while also being cheap enough to be played and defended early and mid game. He turns UB into UB counter burn easily.
I personally wouldn't run a Grim Lavamancer that could not target creatures. And this one can't go into just any green aggro deck, only one that at least splashes black.
I wouldn't play it in a non-green deck because it doesn't target it creatures. I wouldn't play it in a non-black deck because it's worthless. So I would only pick it up if I am in the BG combination (virtual gold card during draft), even though it's easier to play once in-game than a gold card. But if its taking up a virtual gold slot in draft, it should do something pretty good, not just be better than grim in some narrow ways and worse than grim in other, quite critical, ways.
I meant worth a card. Like how much does this guy have to do to be worth a spot in the deck and a card in the game. There will be times it's awesome like in your examples, but I just want to think about the average to worst case scenario. If this guy was a black sulfuric vortex, he'd be sweet, but will he work that way enough of the time?
This pretty much says it all. This card is a pretty bad comparison to grim lavamancer consider grim lavamancer can hit creatures. This guy falls short in three areas.
1) his ramp ability is unreliable and very likely to never be used.
2) I wouldn't play him as a G 1/2 Gtap, exile a creature card: gain two life. This is a terrible savaging ooze.
3) I wouldn't play him as a B 1/2 Btap, exile an instant or sorcery: target player loses two life. This doesn't seem consistent enough for aggro and isn't worth it as a graveyard hate ability.
so I would only play him in (B/G) and that guild is way to tight for a situational grave hate, situational aggressive 1/2
It's a minor thing, but I'm pretty sure the mana ramp ability is going to be much more useful in legacy than in modern. A single Wasteland gives it fuel for two turns, it seems almost as reliable as Birds of Paradise, I'm not even kidding. Add to that it hates on Knight of the Reliquary, crucible and Life from the Loam, it seems like a house in legacy from what I know about the format.
In cube, I'm not that sure. I wouldn't want to cube it for any of the abilities alone, but maybe the combination makes it good enough.
Draft it on Cubetutor!
To get all his abilities, you need to be green/black too, instead of just red. Most importantly - he can't kill creatures, so the comparison to Grim Lavamancer is far-fetched.
I like him, but I'm not windmill slamming this guy in almost any deck - I think Vraska will be better overall. Just a prediction.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
A 1-drop that gives you value from every dead land, instant, sorcery and creature is pretty good. Especially when it hoses reanimation, flashback, graveyard value creatures and loam/crucible strategies at the same time. The repeatable mid/late game life gain is good, and the reach is valuable. It's NOT a Grim Lavamancer. It's something quite different. A cheap early drop that WILL get its value back over the course of the game. The ramp is unreliable, but usually available for at least 1-2 activations during the game. The life-loss ability is REALLY good. Lots of reach, and easy to activate. And the repeatable life-gain should not be ignored. Not to mention all the times where the exiling is relevant (reanimation, persist, undying, flashback, Will, Snapcaster, Genesis, Bloodghast, Gravecrawler, loam/crucible, regrowth effects, Vengevine, Eternal Dragon, SQUEE) ...this dude is maindeckable hate against a TON of good cube cards. Not to mention that it adds extra value to almost ALL of your dead/discarded cards.
Is it a ridiculous bomb? No. It's not even as good as a black Lavamancer. But it is one hell of a utility 1-drop for Golgari decks.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
It's main function, IMO, is as a flexible hate-mons that can do some things when there's nothing to hate. That's not too bad. Part of my hesitance is that I don't want an essentially-gold card to be a hate-mons, especially since I don't 8-man often and thus don't need hate-effects quite as much.
Unfortunatly, If your opponent isn't interacting with his graveyard he's pretty meh.
As far as raw power goes, he doesn't come close to cracking top 5 in Golgari IMO.
However, maindeckable GY hate is very rare AND important. This should add some inclusion value.
I classify most hybrids indepdently of the MC section, but I don't think you could do it with this guy. You really need to use both his green and black mana abilities to be up to playable potential.
Obviously insane in a multiplayer cube.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
I think my affinity for 1 drop creatures is well-documented by this point, so I'll definitely be playing with him. I just don't think he's 360 material, might not even be 450 material.
I'd probably play him at 540 and above though.
Blimpy's Aggro-Focused Cube (powered 360)
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve my cube. Take a look and ask a question, or give a constructive critique whenever you can.
I will test him at 600 until Vraska's price comes down (or until I open one), but I don't think he makes the top 5 in Golgari.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Agree. I think he might be the 7th best Golgari card if you don't count signets, talismans and Keystones (or whatever they're called).
My Tribal cube
My 93/94 old school cube
My Artifact cube
My Hearthstone Quiz App for iOS
I agree. I think you need to be running at least 5 Golgari cards before considering him. But I do run 5 Golgari cards, so I've been testing him out in the spot Vraska was going to take, and it's been pretty good so far.
Even if you do count the rocks, I think this is the 5th best card in Golgari. Maybe the 6th, but other than that, it's not really close. This 1-drop does a TON of stuff.
Probably less impressive in a 810 card cube where all the cards he's good with/against are so spread out.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Theres Evo wilds/ Terramorphic, zendikar and onslaught fetches, alara block fetches to choose from. Really only the second option doesn't self-disrupt in a way, though. Hmm...
As wtwlf noted in his testing, the shaman is quite swingy in his usefulness. More of build around me card than raw power.
Which leaves the question: Do you want Vraska's raw power, or his flexibility. I really want this guy to be the dude, and I really want an awesome hybrid 1 drop for my aggro decks, with the potential for awesome late game reach. But if that comes with a lot of whiffs in usefulness (as some testing is showing), he may not cut it. =(
Deckbox tradelist/for sale
Draft my cube on cubetutor!
Check out my blog on Cube Archetypes!
The thing is, I don't know if this guy can really be considered "hybrid", as he's best when he's got both colors.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!