Out of these I'd remove Putrefy too, but you could also classify Deathrite Shaman as either a green or black card (I'd go with green to go with the other elves).
I wouldn't play the card without access to both colors of mana (especially without access to black) so classifying it as a green card doesn't make much sense to me.
Has anyone tested this guy in the Pox shell? Seems strong for a deck that ends up with a lot of land in the graveyard, life in the tank, and often has trouble pushing across the last few points of damage. Plus, he solves some annoying graveyard problems.
Has anyone tested this guy in the Pox shell? Seems strong for a deck that ends up with a lot of land in the graveyard, life in the tank, and often has trouble pushing across the last few points of damage. Plus, he solves some annoying graveyard problems.
I might want to test it in a Pox shell. Without Pox, graveyards in Cube games can be surprisingly empty in my experience. Tarmogoyf spends quite some time as a Squire or an easier to cast Elvish Warrior.
I might want to test it in a Pox shell. Without Pox, graveyards in Cube games can be surprisingly empty in my experience. Tarmogoyf spends quite some time as a Squire or an easier to cast Elvish Warrior.
This is correct. Tarmogoyf isn't that great of a Cube card (many times he is a bad wall). Shaman isn't Constructed level great either, but he (barely, I think) passes the test for inclusion as a 1 drop. He'll probably get better over time or perhaps Cubes will shift slightly to give him enhanced support.
Shaman is mad good in small cubes. All of his modes are very relevant and the 2 toughness (he has no business whatsoever having 2 toughness) is surprisingly relevant for saving damage against random 1/1s in a number of matchups. It's the swiss army knife of one drops. Although I classify it in G/B because it's much, much better with all modes available, I will still pick it for random black decks. The ramp is very unexpected and welcome in that shell, too.
Does anyone here think the Shaman is worth running in a cube without fetches? My group can't afford them and we're up for changing up our Golgari section a bit.
Does anyone here think the Shaman is worth running in a cube without fetches? My group can't afford them and we're up for changing up our Golgari section a bit.
He loses a lot of his acceleration potential without Fetches. He's still a capable guy with his G and B abilities though, offering some graveyard hate attached to relevant effects.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Moderator Helpdesk
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Does anyone here think the Shaman is worth running in a cube without fetches? My group can't afford them and we're up for changing up our Golgari section a bit.
I think it would lose quite a bit of its value, if it wasn't ramping early in every other game like it can with a full suite of fetches available.
Does anyone here think the Shaman is worth running in a cube without fetches? My group can't afford them and we're up for changing up our Golgari section a bit.
He is a little narrow without fethes unless you have a lot of reanimator nonsense that needs to be kept in check/supported.
But if you guys are doing budget I still recommend the Mirage Fetches, using the gold bordered ones from the championship decks, evolving wilds, and terramorphic expanse. I found these budget cards to be in the top tier when you don't have the expenseive fetches and duals. In that scenario he is very good.
Shaman is mad good in small cubes. All of his modes are very relevant and the 2 toughness (he has no business whatsoever having 2 toughness) is surprisingly relevant for saving damage against random 1/1s in a number of matchups. It's the swiss army knife of one drops. Although I classify it in G/B because it's much, much better with all modes available, I will still pick it for random black decks. The ramp is very unexpected and welcome in that shell, too.
This is closer to my experience. He has been in and out of my 360. I can't bump Pulse, Troll, and Decay so I was playing him and Life/Death with one fewer in black and green. He was often picked in B/x decks same as Life/Death and was amazing there, but the cards were rarely drafted/used in green decks not supporting black.
I think when I go to 450 I will put him back in. He will be a little less powerful with fewer fetches, but it is more of a classification/room problem for me. Black loves the ramp so I think it will be worth finding a way back in.
Does anyone here think the Shaman is worth running in a cube without fetches? My group can't afford them and we're up for changing up our Golgari section a bit.
Deathrite is a lot worse when you or your opponent can't consistently/effortlessly fill up your graveyard with a fetch. They may only be 10 cards, but they're 10 cards that any deck at the table will play if their color shows up. There are also things like t-mo and the MODO cube runs those awful ETB tapped fetches that exist.
That being said, Deathrite can still be great in some decks and an insane sideboard card. He's crazy against reanimator, makes regrowth effects really bad, and is a foil to dudes like snapcaster mage.
Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, I wouldn't expect to be ramping a lot with Deathrite Shaman without the fetches and my playgroup aren't very fond of the Mirage fetchlands since they must come into play tapped. We just stick with a cycle of Shocklands and Checklands in our 360 and that seems to be working well.
I was just wondering if the psuedo-lavamancer effect and the incidental lifegain are strong enough on their own. I think I'll try it out for a bit next time I cube and see what it's like.
Thanks for the responses everyone! Yeah, I wouldn't expect to be ramping a lot with Deathrite Shaman without the fetches and my playgroup aren't very fond of the Mirage fetchlands since they must come into play tapped. We just stick with a cycle of Shocklands and Checklands in our 360 and that seems to be working well.
I was just wondering if the psuedo-lavamancer effect and the incidental lifegain are strong enough on their own. I think I'll try it out for a bit next time I cube and see what it's like.
If your group likes Rakdos burn decks, or Mono-Black Aggro I would still try it. I am playing a Young Pyromancer Deck in standard that uses the deathrite for burn value and it is great. Getting just a little bit more out of your black one for ones is critical to making the Black's attrition game so good.
And rather that try the mirage lands start with just Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse. They come into play tapped but there are some decks that are fine with that and they pair really well with deathrite. And 2 in the colorless spot is much easier to fit in than 5 gold lands.
This is closer to my experience. He has been in and out of my 360. I can't bump Pulse, Troll, and Decay so I was playing him and Life/Death with one fewer in black and green. He was often picked in B/x decks same as Life/Death and was amazing there, but the cards were rarely drafted/used in green decks not supporting black.
I bumped Troll for DRS on a permanent basis. Troll is a fine guy, but at the end of the day is just a very good 2-drop with some tangential reanimator support. That's a little unexciting for a gold card. There are very few 1-drops who come close to offering what DRS does; it's a mono-black mana dork, a win condition, life gain, graveyard hate and even combos with other discard outlets. Being hybrid, it goes into a ton of decks. Cutting a green and black card and running DRS+something as well as the troll was considered, but there aren't any other G/B hybrid cards that warranted this treatment. We aren't fans of Life//Death. So our trio of Deed, Pulse and DRS is set in stone, and at this point I feel that DRS is a lot more important to our meta than Pulse.
EDIT: Quoting a post is somewhat more confusing now. That took a couple of goes, lol.
I think this may be where I ma headed. I had predicted big things for the troll, but I am not currently supporting green aggro so his use in G/B or Jund Aggro is not happening like I thought it might, leaving him as a set up for reanimator, and since I already dropped the wild mongrel I guess the troll has to go.
With the inclusion of the enemy horizon lands DRS should become quite a bit better. Thinking about readding it together with the Modern Horizons update of the Cube. What do you all think?
I was never a fan of DRS in a 720 card cube because of the low density of fetches, but I’m starting to think that it could be worth it if only for the GY disruption, lifegain, and reach. Curious if anyone has feedback on how this card works if you assume you’re not activating the make mana ability.
I was never a fan of DRS in a 720 card cube because of the low density of fetches, but I’m starting to think that it could be worth it if only for the GY disruption, lifegain, and reach. Curious if anyone has feedback on how this card works if you assume you’re not activating the make mana ability.
This card has been on my mind for a while now, especially given the night and day difference between a birds of paradise + Sakura Tribe Scout. With Ignoble Hierarch in my cube, I feel i'm getting close to the density of 1 drop mana dorks I find optimal and I would like to cut all the 2 drop at this point.
It obviously lacks the fetch land consistency for eternal formats and is far from a Birds of Paradise and been consistency cut from cube's for this reason.
But I would argue this is slightly stronger than a Gilded Goose as there are roughly 25 or so lands that go to the graveyard (Mirage Fetches, Fetches, Terramorphic Expanse, Canopy Lands, Wasteland etc.), Aristocrats is a viable archetype and just having a body on the field that can occasionally disrupt the opponent and drain for 4-6 damage over the course of the game is good and with more graveyard synergies showing up, a counter play should be necessary.
I would count him as half a 1 drop aggro creature + half a mana dork in my calculations when considering cuts.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I was never a fan of DRS in a 720 card cube because of the low density of fetches, but I’m starting to think that it could be worth it if only for the GY disruption, lifegain, and reach. Curious if anyone has feedback on how this card works if you assume you’re not activating the make mana ability.
This card has been on my mind for a while now, especially given the night and day difference between a birds of paradise + Sakura Tribe Scout. With Ignoble Hierarch in my cube, I feel i'm getting close to the density of 1 drop mana dorks I find optimal and I would like to cut all the 2 drop at this point.
It obviously lacks the fetch land consistency for eternal formats and is far from a Birds of Paradise and been consistency cut from cube's for this reason.
But I would argue this is slightly stronger than a Gilded Goose as there are roughly 25 or so lands that go to the graveyard (Mirage Fetches, Fetches, Terramorphic Expanse, Canopy Lands, Wasteland etc.), Aristocrats is a viable archetype and just having a body on the field that can occasionally disrupt the opponent and drain for 4-6 damage over the course of the game is good and with more graveyard synergies showing up, a counter play should be necessary.
I would count him as half a 1 drop aggro creature + half a mana dork in my calculations when considering cuts.
These are great points, thanks for the feedback.
In black and green I’ve found that loading up the guild section on removal is underwhelming, as black already destroys creatures/walkers and green already destroys artifacts/enchantments very well. Some of the GB removal is redundant to the mono-colored cards you have access to which is why I’m a little lower on any of the cards that carry a downside (looking at you, Assassin’s Trophy).
I think I’ll give Deathrite a shot in the next update.
I'm reconsidering a new organization such that hybrid color cards are counted as half a green/ black card instead of a golgari card. I don't see why the same restrictions should apply for Deathrite Shaman and Grim Flayer when the former is a lot more playable than the latter.
I've been thinking about the reorganization, but I think it should roughly look like this:
- Hybrid -> 0.5 Towards each color section
- Flashback -> 0.5 Towards front half, 0.5 towards the hybrid section -> Lingering Souls is 0.5 towards white, 0.5 towards Orzhov
- Card exclusively played for one half -> 0.5 Towards one half, 0.5 Towards Hybrid -> Life // Death - Although this is Golgari, this is primarily a mono black card, but occasionally the latter comes up in aristocrats. I would count this as half black, half Golgari,
- Tap for another color -> 0.5 Towards front half, 0.5 towards hybrid -> Avacyn's Pilgrim - I would count this as half green, half Selesyna.
Contains both in the casting cost -> Then it is a hybrid.
I been considering this reorganization after how much I've noticed Selesyna is punished after almost all its cards are hybrid color mana. This isn't perfect as there is an argument that Deathrite should be more golgari as he needs both black and green to function effectively.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
That... seems like a lot of unnecessary math if one was to try and balance colors, guilds, etc.
Personally, I would just consider this a green mana dork and move one. The inclusion of black makes the card better, but running it just as a wonky BoP is fine. I tend to just simplify cards like this and separate what is a core function and what is extra and file it based on core function. Players can then decide if the extra mile is worth it or not. You will eventually shake out if the card is even worth the slot or not.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
LEGACY|UWStonebladeCOMMANDER|UBGThe Mimeoplsm Ooze & Aghhs!MODERN|UWAzorius Control THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
That... seems like a lot of unnecessary math if one was to try and balance colors, guilds, etc.
Personally, I would just consider this a green mana dork and move one. The inclusion of black makes the card better, but running it just as a wonky BoP is fine. I tend to just simplify cards like this and separate what is a core function and what is extra and file it based on core function. Players can then decide if the extra mile is worth it or not. You will eventually shake out if the card is even worth the slot or not.
I do agree its pretty unnecessary - its more or less just to justify running more multi color cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
I wouldn't play the card without access to both colors of mana (especially without access to black) so classifying it as a green card doesn't make much sense to me.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
This is correct. Tarmogoyf isn't that great of a Cube card (many times he is a bad wall). Shaman isn't Constructed level great either, but he (barely, I think) passes the test for inclusion as a 1 drop. He'll probably get better over time or perhaps Cubes will shift slightly to give him enhanced support.
Hes definitely not a must play in smaller Cubes.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
He loses a lot of his acceleration potential without Fetches. He's still a capable guy with his G and B abilities though, offering some graveyard hate attached to relevant effects.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I think it would lose quite a bit of its value, if it wasn't ramping early in every other game like it can with a full suite of fetches available.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
He is a little narrow without fethes unless you have a lot of reanimator nonsense that needs to be kept in check/supported.
But if you guys are doing budget I still recommend the Mirage Fetches, using the gold bordered ones from the championship decks, evolving wilds, and terramorphic expanse. I found these budget cards to be in the top tier when you don't have the expenseive fetches and duals. In that scenario he is very good.
This is closer to my experience. He has been in and out of my 360. I can't bump Pulse, Troll, and Decay so I was playing him and Life/Death with one fewer in black and green. He was often picked in B/x decks same as Life/Death and was amazing there, but the cards were rarely drafted/used in green decks not supporting black.
I think when I go to 450 I will put him back in. He will be a little less powerful with fewer fetches, but it is more of a classification/room problem for me. Black loves the ramp so I think it will be worth finding a way back in.
Deathrite is a lot worse when you or your opponent can't consistently/effortlessly fill up your graveyard with a fetch. They may only be 10 cards, but they're 10 cards that any deck at the table will play if their color shows up. There are also things like t-mo and the MODO cube runs those awful ETB tapped fetches that exist.
That being said, Deathrite can still be great in some decks and an insane sideboard card. He's crazy against reanimator, makes regrowth effects really bad, and is a foil to dudes like snapcaster mage.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
I was just wondering if the psuedo-lavamancer effect and the incidental lifegain are strong enough on their own. I think I'll try it out for a bit next time I cube and see what it's like.
If your group likes Rakdos burn decks, or Mono-Black Aggro I would still try it. I am playing a Young Pyromancer Deck in standard that uses the deathrite for burn value and it is great. Getting just a little bit more out of your black one for ones is critical to making the Black's attrition game so good.
And rather that try the mirage lands start with just Evolving Wilds and Terramorphic Expanse. They come into play tapped but there are some decks that are fine with that and they pair really well with deathrite. And 2 in the colorless spot is much easier to fit in than 5 gold lands.
I bumped Troll for DRS on a permanent basis. Troll is a fine guy, but at the end of the day is just a very good 2-drop with some tangential reanimator support. That's a little unexciting for a gold card. There are very few 1-drops who come close to offering what DRS does; it's a mono-black mana dork, a win condition, life gain, graveyard hate and even combos with other discard outlets. Being hybrid, it goes into a ton of decks. Cutting a green and black card and running DRS+something as well as the troll was considered, but there aren't any other G/B hybrid cards that warranted this treatment. We aren't fans of Life//Death. So our trio of Deed, Pulse and DRS is set in stone, and at this point I feel that DRS is a lot more important to our meta than Pulse.
EDIT: Quoting a post is somewhat more confusing now. That took a couple of goes, lol.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
This card has been on my mind for a while now, especially given the night and day difference between a birds of paradise + Sakura Tribe Scout. With Ignoble Hierarch in my cube, I feel i'm getting close to the density of 1 drop mana dorks I find optimal and I would like to cut all the 2 drop at this point.
It obviously lacks the fetch land consistency for eternal formats and is far from a Birds of Paradise and been consistency cut from cube's for this reason.
But I would argue this is slightly stronger than a Gilded Goose as there are roughly 25 or so lands that go to the graveyard (Mirage Fetches, Fetches, Terramorphic Expanse, Canopy Lands, Wasteland etc.), Aristocrats is a viable archetype and just having a body on the field that can occasionally disrupt the opponent and drain for 4-6 damage over the course of the game is good and with more graveyard synergies showing up, a counter play should be necessary.
I would count him as half a 1 drop aggro creature + half a mana dork in my calculations when considering cuts.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
These are great points, thanks for the feedback.
In black and green I’ve found that loading up the guild section on removal is underwhelming, as black already destroys creatures/walkers and green already destroys artifacts/enchantments very well. Some of the GB removal is redundant to the mono-colored cards you have access to which is why I’m a little lower on any of the cards that carry a downside (looking at you, Assassin’s Trophy).
I think I’ll give Deathrite a shot in the next update.
I've been thinking about the reorganization, but I think it should roughly look like this:
- Hybrid -> 0.5 Towards each color section
- Flashback -> 0.5 Towards front half, 0.5 towards the hybrid section -> Lingering Souls is 0.5 towards white, 0.5 towards Orzhov
- Card exclusively played for one half -> 0.5 Towards one half, 0.5 Towards Hybrid -> Life // Death - Although this is Golgari, this is primarily a mono black card, but occasionally the latter comes up in aristocrats. I would count this as half black, half Golgari,
- Tap for another color -> 0.5 Towards front half, 0.5 towards hybrid -> Avacyn's Pilgrim - I would count this as half green, half Selesyna.
Contains both in the casting cost -> Then it is a hybrid.
I been considering this reorganization after how much I've noticed Selesyna is punished after almost all its cards are hybrid color mana. This isn't perfect as there is an argument that Deathrite should be more golgari as he needs both black and green to function effectively.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Personally, I would just consider this a green mana dork and move one. The inclusion of black makes the card better, but running it just as a wonky BoP is fine. I tend to just simplify cards like this and separate what is a core function and what is extra and file it based on core function. Players can then decide if the extra mile is worth it or not. You will eventually shake out if the card is even worth the slot or not.
THE JUICE[BOX]³ CUBE
I do agree its pretty unnecessary - its more or less just to justify running more multi color cards.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i