Would like to point out that vault of the archangel is insane in cube and should be a staple imo. I have never seen anyone lose after activating vault. Nobody in my group likes to see someone untap with it.
I think WB is too stacked for Vault to crack into most cubes. The activation cost is too high combined with the fact that you need to have creatures out. I run 4 (soon to be 5) WB cards in my cube and Vault has no hope of making it in.
Would like to point out that vault of the archangel is insane in cube and should be a staple imo. I have never seen anyone lose after activating vault. Nobody in my group likes to see someone untap with it.
The problem is that a lot of WB decks are very demanding for their manabase. A lot of good cards have WW or BB and generally I really want to limit the number of lands that only produce colourless in Orzhov builds.
I can understand people running Kessig, Stronghold, Moorland or Lighthouse but vault looks really weak versus those. And WB is more stacked than UW or UR.
I think it's because I run lingering souls and unburial rites in their respective colors rather than orzhov that I have space for vault. It's the 3rd best card imo, after vindicate and sorin.
I'll second the praise for the Vault. I'd run it if I wasn't running Lingering Souls. It's easily the 4th best, IMO, even taking into account the mana troubles. The problem is that the power drops off steeply if it's not in a midrange build, whereas Vindicate, Sorin, and Lingering Souls are pretty solid in any WB build.
I think it's because I run lingering souls and unburial rites in their respective colors rather than orzhov that I have space for vault. It's the 3rd best card imo, after vindicate and sorin.
I think Lingering Souls is definitely the third best. I'm not sure if the 4th slot belong to the vault, Stillmoon Cavalier, or the Desolation Angel, though.
I think Lingering Souls is definitely the third best. I'm not sure if the 4th slot belong to the vault, Stillmoon Cavalier, or the Desolation Angel, though.
Desolation Angel was one of my favorite cube cards when I first built the Cube. Now I don't think it is good enough. I would test the land but I think multiple better cards will be out before the end of the block.
I'll second the praise for the Vault. I'd run it if I wasn't running Lingering Souls. It's easily the 4th best, IMO, even taking into account the mana troubles. The problem is that the power drops off steeply if it's not in a midrange build, whereas Vindicate, Sorin, and Lingering Souls are pretty solid in any WB build.
Vault is also great in an aggro deck because it allows your creatures to kill off control finishers if they block you, locking out any virtual tempo the control opponent is trying to create.
It is also good in a control shell because you get to live longer once your fat attacker connects.
I think even without any Gatecrash additions, Orzhov is the second strongest guild in the cube. It's incredibly deep, it has a ton of great options, and it has three ridiculous cube bombs.
Obzedat is pretty darn good. If it's a card that interests your playgroup, I'd definitely give it a spin. The Angel seems pretty bad though.
I think even without any Gatecrash additions, Orzhov is the second strongest guild in the cube. It's incredibly deep, it has a ton of great options, and it has three ridiculous cube bombs.
Obzedat is pretty darn good. If it's a card that interests your playgroup, I'd definitely give it a spin. The Angel seems pretty bad though.
You really think Orzhov is deep? I thought Golgari was really deep. Golgari has at least 8-10 playable cards to choose from. If you are making a budget cube you don't have to play Malestrom Pulse or Deed. There are plenty of cards available. I feel like Orzhov has less options. I'm looking for something cheap that could added to the cube. I don't see anything in this set that really sticks out.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I don't think she's good in theory at all. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is. I'd play every card in wtwlf's post before it and maybe a few others (i.e. Deathbringer Liege).
That said, I'm scratching my head trying to decide on my fourth Orzhov card if I go back to 360. Leaning towards Gerrard's Verdict, there ain't much playable non-targetted discard in the cube.
...all of those options are reasonable, and most of them are budget. It's a much bigger list than you can come up with for most sections.
If you actually look at Orzhov there are more cards that Izzet or Simic. At least there are some cards available for Orzhov. When I'm looking at cards i'm looking at cards that are $5 and under. I'm not looking at Sorin or Vindicate. I have my budget cube currently set up so none of my multicolored cards are over $4. I also don't have planeswalkers in the multicolored section of my cube. I could put cards like Ajani Vengeant in my cube but I choose not to. I don't feel like I need to put any gold colored planeswalkers in my cube.
I'm currently playing Lingering Souls, Vault of the Archangel, and Gerrad's Verdict. I eventually want to add Angel of Despair to replace Gerrad's Verdict. I had been playing Desolation Angel and he didn't do much. I thought he could have some effect on the cube. I had him in my cube for at least 6 months and he didn't get played much. I don't remember anyone playing him.
I can't remember ever beating a resolving Desolation Angel. When that thing hits the board on your opponents side, you might as well shuffle your cards up for the next match, you are going to move most of your permanents into the graveyards anyways...
I don't know what you were doing with the card in the 6 months, but it was clearly something vastly different than what we did with it.
@Warden: Deathpact Angel is vanilla, not overly big for 6 mana and it has all sorts of summoning sickness attached to it. That's not a card i would let near my multicolor section, probably not even if the manacost on the 1/1 wasn't there.
You found Desolation Angel to work in your cube? So it did perform well for you? I think I originally put Desolation Angel in my cube based on how it was rated. It was rated as the #3 Orzhov card behind Stillmoon Caviler and Vindicate. This was of course before we had Sorin and Lingering Souls. Desolation Angel was also ranked as the #16 top gold card. How would you usually play Desolation Angel? Are you expecting the opponent to have nothing on board when she hits? You play her for 7 destroying all lands. I guess you are hoping they have nothing on board. Did you have any other cards in your deck like Winter Orb, Black Vise or Ankh of Mishra? I could see Desolation Angel working good with cards like Winter Orb and Ankh of Mishra or Black Vise.
Playing a seven mana spell in a deck with Winter Orb and Ankh doesn't sound like a combo to me... The opposite, actually.
The way i see it, Desolation Angel is a finisher for control. Wrath the board and they get a turn. If they don't play something that can race a flying 5/4, they are dead. Boom.
So basically you have to get something like Wrath of God, Day of Judgment or Catastrophe for this work. So what you do is not play Desolation Angel turn 7. If you get him in your hand you wait until you have Wrath effect first. You don't play your Wrath effect before you have Desolation Angel. There has been at least one or two times where we ended up having both Day Judgment and Wrath in the same draft. I have Wrath of God, Day Judgment and Catastrophe in my cube. What if you don't get any Wrath type of effect? Do you still play Desolation Angel?
I don't think she's good in theory at all. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but there it is. I'd play every card in wtwlf's post before it and maybe a few others (i.e. Deathbringer Liege).
That said, I'm scratching my head trying to decide on my fourth Orzhov card if I go back to 360. Leaning towards Gerrard's Verdict, there ain't much playable non-targetted discard in the cube.
I am trying Unburial Rites as my #4 now. I want to support reanimator more and it has synergy with other cards. Mortify is the best 4th card I think, followed by Verdict, then Sculler. I tend to go with more interesting cards than raw power though.
I am trying Unburial Rites as my #4 now. I want to support reanimator more and it has synergy with other cards. Mortify is the best 4th card I think, followed by Verdict, then Sculler. I tend to go with more interesting cards than raw power though.
I am as well, and I've really liked it so far. It's a great card in the W/B reanimator decks, since it's a reanimation spell that entomb can yet, making it tutor for both ends.
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The problem is that a lot of WB decks are very demanding for their manabase. A lot of good cards have WW or BB and generally I really want to limit the number of lands that only produce colourless in Orzhov builds.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
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I think Lingering Souls is definitely the third best. I'm not sure if the 4th slot belong to the vault, Stillmoon Cavalier, or the Desolation Angel, though.
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Desolation Angel was one of my favorite cube cards when I first built the Cube. Now I don't think it is good enough. I would test the land but I think multiple better cards will be out before the end of the block.
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Vault is also great in an aggro deck because it allows your creatures to kill off control finishers if they block you, locking out any virtual tempo the control opponent is trying to create.
It is also good in a control shell because you get to live longer once your fat attacker connects.
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Obzedat is pretty darn good. If it's a card that interests your playgroup, I'd definitely give it a spin. The Angel seems pretty bad though.
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You really think Orzhov is deep? I thought Golgari was really deep. Golgari has at least 8-10 playable cards to choose from. If you are making a budget cube you don't have to play Malestrom Pulse or Deed. There are plenty of cards available. I feel like Orzhov has less options. I'm looking for something cheap that could added to the cube. I don't see anything in this set that really sticks out.
But yes, Orzhov is a deep section. Almost as deep as Golgari. There's at least 8 good cube cards for Orzhov. Probably more.
Staples:
Vindicate
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Lingering Souls
Fatty:
Desolation Angel
Angel of Despair
Removal:
Mortify
Discard:
Gerrard's Verdict
Tidehollow Sculler
Utility:
Unburial Rites
Vault of the Archangel
Debtor's Knell
Creatures:
Stillmoon Cavalier
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Other:
Orzhov Signet
...all of those options are reasonable, and most of them are budget. It's a much bigger list than you can come up with for most sections.
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That said, I'm scratching my head trying to decide on my fourth Orzhov card if I go back to 360. Leaning towards Gerrard's Verdict, there ain't much playable non-targetted discard in the cube.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I think this card is terrible. Top 5? Absolutely not. Not top 10. Not even close.
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I'm currently playing Lingering Souls, Vault of the Archangel, and Gerrad's Verdict. I eventually want to add Angel of Despair to replace Gerrad's Verdict. I had been playing Desolation Angel and he didn't do much. I thought he could have some effect on the cube. I had him in my cube for at least 6 months and he didn't get played much. I don't remember anyone playing him.
So basically you have to get something like Wrath of God, Day of Judgment or Catastrophe for this work. So what you do is not play Desolation Angel turn 7. If you get him in your hand you wait until you have Wrath effect first. You don't play your Wrath effect before you have Desolation Angel. There has been at least one or two times where we ended up having both Day Judgment and Wrath in the same draft. I have Wrath of God, Day Judgment and Catastrophe in my cube. What if you don't get any Wrath type of effect? Do you still play Desolation Angel?
I am trying Unburial Rites as my #4 now. I want to support reanimator more and it has synergy with other cards. Mortify is the best 4th card I think, followed by Verdict, then Sculler. I tend to go with more interesting cards than raw power though.
I am as well, and I've really liked it so far. It's a great card in the W/B reanimator decks, since it's a reanimation spell that entomb can yet, making it tutor for both ends.
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