MTG Salvation

It was even a terrible trade at the time but I was 14 and really wanted to combo Icy with my Royal Assassin.

Quote from Goodking

I disagree with that too. I find Counterspell highly powered and I'll run it in any half U or better deck. I'd say its value has increased owing to all the great ETB effects that we have now - removal won't prevent those, but countermagic will.

Many times the more splashable counters end up being played more for us.

Quote from KBH

Many times the more splashable counters end up being played more for us.

This is how I feel.

I also like the splashable counters more than the regular Counterspell. But it's moot, because Counterspell is still great, it will always be played, and likely never replaced considering how Wizards feels countermagic should be costed nowadays.

Quote from KBH

Many times the more splashable counters end up being played more for us.

Us too, because they're - you know, splashable. That's awesome in cube. Miscalculation is one of my favourite cards. But Counterspell I just can't see being replaced soon or ever. I certainly wouldn't consider it mediocre in any capacity.

spashable counters are easier to cast, but for the most part, they are limited in targets (remove soul, dispel) or just soft counters (mana leak, daze). sometimes you just want a hard counter and counterspell & mana drain are the cheapest ones available.

Quote from mook1e

spashable counters are easier to cast, but for the most part, they are limited in targets (remove soul, dispel) or just soft counters (mana leak, daze). sometimes you just want a hard counter and counterspell & mana drain are the cheapest ones available.

Arcane Denial is a hard counter too.

Cheers,
rant

Mana drain is straight up busted. If you were to take the power 9 and extend that another few cards, Mana drain would make that list (along with Sol Ring, LoA, and Jitte). IMO anyway.

That said, I'm actually playing it in my cube now as I don't think it's horibly degenerate if you don't have ultra powerful six drops to drain into (I don't run titans or wurmcoil).

IMO, playing one broken card won't warp your meta game, it's playing a critical mass of them that create consistent degenerate game states.

I think Jace, TMS is better than Mana Drain. I also think cards like Survival, Recurring Nightmare, and Sulfuric Vortex are better than Mana Drain if you see them early. Mana Drain does have the advantage of being good in any blue-based midrange or control deck.

Mana Drain blows out every single one of those cards you named. The closest is Jace, but I'll still take Mana Drain over it all day every day.

Quote from Blimpy

Mana Drain blows out every single one of those cards you named. The closest is Jace, but I'll still take Mana Drain over it all day every day.

Agreed, although I might take Nightmare over Drain if I was in the mood. I love Nightmare decks.

Cheers,
rant

I don't know. A lot of cards can be more important to their respective decks than Mana Drain is. It can be super powerful if you have an outlet for the colorless mana on the next turn, but it's usually not a critical card for a particular strategy. I could see taking a lot of cards over it depending on what kind of deck you want to build.

Quote from Blimpy

Mana Drain blows out every single one of those cards you named. The closest is Jace, but I'll still take Mana Drain over it all day every day.

Hmm that is very odd; I wonder how many people agree with this. Survival and Nightmare are engines that completely take over the game if they aren't removed once you play them (and you can protect Nightmare from sorcery-speed answers). If you have time and resources to untap with either of those cards for some number of turns, they are going to be the strongest cards in the Cube. Mana Drain is a *very powerful* one trick pony. They need to have a spell for you to counter when you leave up UU; you need to have a powerful mana sink with colorless mana in the casting cost on the following turn; your powerful mana sink needs to be powerful enough to win the game on its own without them having an answer to it. There are a lot of factors, and I don't think the plays coming off the back of Mana Drain are as strong or as consistent as Survival or Recurring Nightmare in the right deck. I actually don't think it's even close.

Who else would P1P1 Mana Drain over Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest???

Quote from Patrunkenphat7

Hmm that is very odd; I wonder how many people agree with this. Survival and Nightmare are engines that completely take over the game if they aren't removed once you play them (and you can protect Nightmare from sorcery-speed answers). If you have time and resources to untap with either of those cards for some number of turns, they are going to be the strongest cards in the Cube. Mana Drain is a *very powerful* one trick pony. They need to have a spell for you to counter when you leave up UU; you need to have a powerful mana sink with colorless mana in the casting cost on the following turn; your powerful mana sink needs to be powerful enough to win the game on its own without them having an answer to it. There are a lot of factors, and I don't think the plays coming off the back of Mana Drain are as strong or as consistent as Survival or Recurring Nightmare in the right deck. I actually don't think it's even close.

Who else would P1P1 Mana Drain over Recurring Nightmare or Survival of the Fittest???

I would, most of the time. Mana Drain needs less building around, so it keeps me open to a ton of types of decks. Additionally, Mana Drain commits me to cubes strongest color.

Additionally, Mana Drain is a much better pick the longer the draft goes, as it requires little in the way of previous cards drafted (except colors obviously).

Quote from wtwlf123

I don't know. A lot of cards can be more important to their respective decks than Mana Drain is. It can be super powerful if you have an outlet for the colorless mana on the next turn, but it's usually not a critical card for a particular strategy. I could see taking a lot of cards over it depending on what kind of deck you want to build.

This has been my experience as well. It's an undeniably good card but we've not found it totally busted in our drafts unless the player had a plan in place to maximize its utility. It's not a build around card as much as the other cards that were mentioned.

Krosan grip does work against recurring nightmare due to split second.

Disenchant works against it too as long as you don't cast it during your opponent's main phase.

Quote from ahadabans

Krosan grip does work against recurring nightmare due to split second.

Disenchant works against it too as long as you don't cast it during your opponent's main phase.

No they don't, unless the Nightmare player misplays. Cast Nightmare, activate Nightmare, it's back in your hand by the time your opponent gets priority again. There is just no window for them to cast anything before the Nightmare is safely back in your hand.

Quote from ahadabans

Krosan grip does work against recurring nightmare due to split second.

Disenchant works against it too as long as you don't cast it during your opponent's main phase.

Neither of these work against Recurring Nightmare.

Both of those cards work, if the opponent misplays with their Recurring Nightmare.

Quote from Fredo

No they don't, unless the Nightmare player misplays. Cast Nightmare, activate Nightmare, it's back in your hand by the time your opponent gets priority again. There is just no window for them to cast anything before the Nightmare is safely back in your hand.

You are totally right. It's never come up so I didn't really think it through.

So some of my friends keep saying I should add Mana Drain to my cube despite not having any of the power 9 but still having things like Jitte, Balance and Recurring Nightmare. The only other card I've seen people be vehemently against in my group was mind twist. Would it be too unfair or just super good and not absolutely broken?

It is super powerful no doubt. It is broken no doubt. It may depends on the situation sometimes but it is for sure. Early game Mana Drain is brutal. Still get the job done late however, acting like a simple Counterspell if you have nothing else to cast at sorcery speed.

It depends on how much you want your cube to opens OP kind of play. But I would say that it is the most broken one among the ones you've mentionned just above.

P1P1 I'd take Jitte or Recurring Nightmare over Mana Drain.

Quote from Tengu Drum »

So some of my friends keep saying I should add Mana Drain to my cube despite not having any of the power 9 but still having things like Jitte, Balance and Recurring Nightmare. The only other card I've seen people be vehemently against in my group was mind twist. Would it be too unfair or just super good and not absolutely broken?

The fact that someone in your group wants to play with the card, and nobody seems to be against it means you might as well try the card out, at least if you have no issue with playing with proxies.

As far as power reasons go, I say mana drain is to powerful for an unpowered cube. Every unpowered cube owner has to draw the line in the sand themselves and say where the cut-off is, and that really isn't trivial. Some people just ban the power 9, which I feel is a silly approach, as those cards are definitly not the 9 most powerful cards in a cube setting.

Now, we have had power rankings of all cards on these forums before, and we're doing them again right now. From 2014, these were the top 20 overall cards in power in a P1P1 capacity (everyone was eligible to vote).


Now, I had already chosen which cards I play in my cube and which I don't before the 2014 power ranking took place. But after the results were in I noticed I don't play any of the top 10 cards, but I play all of the cards from 11 through 20 (except mana vault). If you are looking for some sort of consensus on power levels, you could base them on the power rankings. And in a month or two, I bet the 2015 results will be up, though I don't expect them to change much from the 2014 as the cards on the list are already stellar.

Going by this method I would say that playing Jitte, but excluding Mana drain for power reasons is weird. (You could still ban Mana Drain on grounds that fast mana leads to unfun games, etc). Personally, I exclude Mana drain but include Recurring, altough they have the same ranking - so this definitly isn't a perfect way to do it, in the end you have to go with your own preferences.

If you're playing Jittes and Nightmares and Balances, Mana Drain will be fine. Very powerful, like those other cards, but ultimately fine.