Right, rarely will you not have an outlet for some of that mana. Maybe not all of it, but I'd burn a couple that I can't outlet for some free mana...
Now here's a question...can you ever see Counterspell being cut from your cube...ever? If not, then Mana Drain with the risk of mana-burning 1 to (maybe) 3 mana is worth the other free mana you get in your outlet...plus the counter itself of course.
The only way I'd see Mana Drain not making it, is for power reasons.
I'm incredibly confused as to what point you're attempting to make. I run Mana Drain. I think it's among the best cards in my cube. I would run it in any deck running sufficient U sources, with or without Mana Burn. I never said anything that would imply otherwise.
I don't understand any of this conversation, so let's call it a day there.
I don't play Mana Drain because it offends my design sensibilities.
1) It's a mistake card from a time where WotC didn't understand the game well enough. Even with mana burn, this card is bonkers. It feels like Timewalk or Ancestral Recall, from the days where they thought things like rarity would limit access to cards.
2) I don't like that mana burn was clearly part of the design of this card and now there's no mana burn. Not that it mattered much (see #1), but it bothers me that the card doesn't work as intended.
3) I feel like Counterspell is the appropriate bar for best unconditional counter. It's iconic and I want it to have corresponding cache in the draft.
I just don't like it, except for the sweet art. I would like to see a similar card as a UG spell though, and at a higher cost, but that's another thread.
I run it in my cube which only runs the moxen out of P9, and doesn't run sol ring. I think it only once dropped a Keiga on T3. It has been far from oppressive and is nowhere near being cut on powerlevel.
It's a mid-high blue pick depending on the deck; if you play counters and upheaval it's of course a high pick, But many of our blue decks are ramp decks playing blue for card draw where it's mediocre since they are not interested in leaving mana up at all, and rather react with sweepers or drop a planeswalker.
1. As others said: Mana Drain is far from swingy. Now that we don't have mana burn anymore, it is always great.
I agree that it's pretty much consistently great now, but I can't argue that it's not swingy. If a spell's effect varies between "counter a spell so I don't lose the game" and "counter a spell and win", that's pretty swingy.
1) It's a mistake card from a time where WotC didn't understand the game well enough.
They make mistakes all the time. Even after they "understood the game". Skullclamp and Big Jace should probably be banned for the same reason. And Tinker. And Balance. And probably a ton of other cards too.
They make mistakes all the time. Even after they "understood the game". Skullclamp and Big Jace should probably be banned for the same reason. And Tinker. And Balance. And probably a ton of other cards too.
I think the mistakes are less frequent. They definitely made more mistakes in the beginning, as making mistakes often goes, but I also think they had a different vision for how the game would be played (e.g., limited didn't exist). So I think they've been better. Of course there are still mistakes, but most of them are not as exploitable in limited.
That's just my opinion though. I guess what I meant was, I don't feel the obligation to include the mistake cards. I can if I want, if they are fun, but I don't feel like I have to run them in the same way that I want to run the powerful but reasonably fair cards.
Blue needs bombs like Mana Drain to survive in my cube.
Even without Mana Drain, blue has no problems surviving in my cube. Imagine I could be bothered to link some of the words in that last sentence to cards like Ancestral Recall and Time Walk to illustrate my point.
When I used to run a proxy, it could be something of a feel bad card: Mana Drain into Mind Twist was the worst offender here. Like others, I often play 6th edition rules, but if I ran this with M10 rules I'd be tempted to errata in the mana burn.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Even without Mana Drain, blue has no problems surviving in my cube. Imagine I could be bothered to link some of the words in that last sentence to cards like Ancestral Recall and Time Walk to illustrate my point.
When I used to run a proxy, it could be something of a feel bad card: Mana Drain into Mind Twist was the worst offender here. Like others, I often play 6th edition rules, but if I ran this with M10 rules I'd be tempted to errata in the mana burn.
Drain into Twist sounds like a dream. It would be tough to get both those cards in the same draft.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
There are many cards I would pick over Mana Drain in an unpowered Cube. It is a very strong card, but it has not been nearly as Broken as something like Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus. If you think Mana Drain is too strong, you shouldn't play Balance, and I don't see many people arguing for not playing Balance in unpowered. It is probably more swingy and degenerate for 2 mana.
It sounds like people are having some weird issue with this card being a strictly better Counterspell... There are quite a few cards in Cube that are strictly better versions of other Cubeable cards, so it really shouldn't be an issue.
Balance requires almost no effort to be broken. You're behind, and then all the sudden you're back to good for 1W. Usually you have to play 4+ mana for that kind of effect. I also think it's better than Mana Drain.
But in the wrong board situation its WCS is that it does nothing.
By "wrong board situation" do you mean when you're winning? I don't complain about Wrath of God being bad when I have a bunch of creatures out and my opponent doesn't. Because it doesn't matter in that situation.
I would argue that you certainly have to set up Mana Drain for it to be broken. I mean you will occasionally luck sack the perfect curve with it, but it is often difficult to utilize the colorless mana from the spell you counter when you have UU in play. The dream situations like countering their 3-drop on the draw right on curve into a Wurmcoil comes up occasionally, but I wouldn't say it is incredibly common, and there are ways of beating that board state when you are not permanently ahead by 3 colorless mana anyways.
I also think Counterspell as a card is a fine, but mediocre in Cube, and "at worst" being a Counterspell doesn't make it sound that fantastic to me. Counterspell is good and is an important card in many strategies, but it's not the same as if you said, "at worst this card is a Black Lotus." If the card already had a first-pickable effect at its worst, it would be too broken with another ability tacked on, but I don't see why being a better Counterspell is a big deal.
I also do not run the powered fast mana including Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, but I do run Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, and Dark Ritual. I guess I don't see one-time use fast mana effects as being too broken (except for Black Lotus... Which allows you to play any 4-drop in the Cube on turn 1...). They are good for sure, but cards that you cheat in on turns 3+ should be beatable for any deck. Mana Vault is borderline... But I still think it's acceptable.
Mana Drain is an insane card. Broken even. I just don't think it's as good as Balance. And if a cube includes Balance (and cards like Mind Twist, Armageddon[s] and/or Umezawa's Jitte, Tinker, Upheaval, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Skullclamp, etc), I think it's safe to include Mana Drain, power-level wise.
Mana Drain is an insane card. Broken even. I just don't think it's as good as Balance. And if a cube includes Balance (and cards like Mind Twist, Armageddon[s] and/or Umezawa's Jitte, Tinker, Upheaval, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Skullclamp, etc), I think it's safe to include Mana Drain, power-level wise.
You need to do some work to make Balance work as a "broken" card, something that is not true for mana drain. All you need to do is cast Mana Drain when your opponent plays a spell to get the mana. It takes almost no work other than leaving UU open. The cards that need work to make them work (like balance) are playable in all cubes (powered/unpowered) as they're not broken just by playing them. It's part of the reason I feel Jitte is playable in an unpowered cube, as you still need creatures to enter combat with a Jitte equipped to get counters.
(Jitte is one of the toughest card to really analyze like that, because it's insane, but you turn it off with one of the fairly numerous artifact removal spells. Like, it's nuts, but it still depends on you getting it onto a creature and getting in there, something that can be easier said than done.)
EDIT: I'm not saying Balance isn't good or broken, just that you can't run it out there on any board and have it work the way you really want it to. Mana Drain will always be, at minimum, a hard counter.
I disagree with that too. I find Counterspell highly powered and I'll run it in any half U or better deck. I'd say its value has increased owing to all the great ETB effects that we have now - removal won't prevent those, but countermagic will.
I remember buying Italian ones for $20..loooooong time ago.
I remember a long time ago opening a legends pack and getting a Mana Drain. This was before it was unrestricted. I traded the Mana Drain for some cards including an unlimited Psionic Blast. Dumbest decision in my life. I really like Mana Drain. Once they unrestricted it that made me really want to have 4 of them in a deck. I don't know if you would ban it. I'm currently playing Jitte in my cube and seeing how it works. I have both Demonic Tutor and Mind Twist in my cube. Was thinking of adding Recurring Nightmare. Both Mind Twist and Recurring Nigtmare are probably the most powerful black cards you could have in your cube. I have a lot of powerful cards in my black, red and white sections of my cube. I don't have many powerful blue cards because a lot of them are expensive. The very top rated blue cards end up including Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Jace 2.0 and Mana Drain. I could run Jace 3.0 but I don't like the idea of someone getting milled to death. I'm pretty sure others have this same feeling towards Jace 3.0.
Mana Drain is way better than balance. It goes into every blue deck and is absolutely ridiculous without conditions. Can't say the same of balance on either count.
Like Sol ring and Skullclamp, it's intensely broken disguised with intense fun.
You should probably cut it for balance's sake, but like the other cards, you remember only the fun and not the brokenness.
I remember a long time ago opening a legends pack and getting a Mana Drain. This was before it was unrestricted. I traded the Mana Drain for some cards including an unlimited Psionic Blast. Dumbest decision in my life.
When they reprinted Icy Manipulator in Ice Age I traded Dual lands for Icys straight up.
I'm incredibly confused as to what point you're attempting to make. I run Mana Drain. I think it's among the best cards in my cube. I would run it in any deck running sufficient U sources, with or without Mana Burn. I never said anything that would imply otherwise.
I don't understand any of this conversation, so let's call it a day there.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
1) It's a mistake card from a time where WotC didn't understand the game well enough. Even with mana burn, this card is bonkers. It feels like Timewalk or Ancestral Recall, from the days where they thought things like rarity would limit access to cards.
2) I don't like that mana burn was clearly part of the design of this card and now there's no mana burn. Not that it mattered much (see #1), but it bothers me that the card doesn't work as intended.
3) I feel like Counterspell is the appropriate bar for best unconditional counter. It's iconic and I want it to have corresponding cache in the draft.
I just don't like it, except for the sweet art. I would like to see a similar card as a UG spell though, and at a higher cost, but that's another thread.
It's a mid-high blue pick depending on the deck; if you play counters and upheaval it's of course a high pick, But many of our blue decks are ramp decks playing blue for card draw where it's mediocre since they are not interested in leaving mana up at all, and rather react with sweepers or drop a planeswalker.
I agree that it's pretty much consistently great now, but I can't argue that it's not swingy. If a spell's effect varies between "counter a spell so I don't lose the game" and "counter a spell and win", that's pretty swingy.
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They make mistakes all the time. Even after they "understood the game". Skullclamp and Big Jace should probably be banned for the same reason. And Tinker. And Balance. And probably a ton of other cards too.
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I think the mistakes are less frequent. They definitely made more mistakes in the beginning, as making mistakes often goes, but I also think they had a different vision for how the game would be played (e.g., limited didn't exist). So I think they've been better. Of course there are still mistakes, but most of them are not as exploitable in limited.
That's just my opinion though. I guess what I meant was, I don't feel the obligation to include the mistake cards. I can if I want, if they are fun, but I don't feel like I have to run them in the same way that I want to run the powerful but reasonably fair cards.
Even without Mana Drain, blue has no problems surviving in my cube. Imagine I could be bothered to link some of the words in that last sentence to cards like Ancestral Recall and Time Walk to illustrate my point.
When I used to run a proxy, it could be something of a feel bad card: Mana Drain into Mind Twist was the worst offender here. Like others, I often play 6th edition rules, but if I ran this with M10 rules I'd be tempted to errata in the mana burn.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Drain into Twist sounds like a dream. It would be tough to get both those cards in the same draft.
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"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
It sounds like people are having some weird issue with this card being a strictly better Counterspell... There are quite a few cards in Cube that are strictly better versions of other Cubeable cards, so it really shouldn't be an issue.
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By "wrong board situation" do you mean when you're winning? I don't complain about Wrath of God being bad when I have a bunch of creatures out and my opponent doesn't. Because it doesn't matter in that situation.
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I also think Counterspell as a card is a fine, but mediocre in Cube, and "at worst" being a Counterspell doesn't make it sound that fantastic to me. Counterspell is good and is an important card in many strategies, but it's not the same as if you said, "at worst this card is a Black Lotus." If the card already had a first-pickable effect at its worst, it would be too broken with another ability tacked on, but I don't see why being a better Counterspell is a big deal.
I also do not run the powered fast mana including Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, but I do run Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, and Dark Ritual. I guess I don't see one-time use fast mana effects as being too broken (except for Black Lotus... Which allows you to play any 4-drop in the Cube on turn 1...). They are good for sure, but cards that you cheat in on turns 3+ should be beatable for any deck. Mana Vault is borderline... But I still think it's acceptable.
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You need to do some work to make Balance work as a "broken" card, something that is not true for mana drain. All you need to do is cast Mana Drain when your opponent plays a spell to get the mana. It takes almost no work other than leaving UU open. The cards that need work to make them work (like balance) are playable in all cubes (powered/unpowered) as they're not broken just by playing them. It's part of the reason I feel Jitte is playable in an unpowered cube, as you still need creatures to enter combat with a Jitte equipped to get counters.
(Jitte is one of the toughest card to really analyze like that, because it's insane, but you turn it off with one of the fairly numerous artifact removal spells. Like, it's nuts, but it still depends on you getting it onto a creature and getting in there, something that can be easier said than done.)
EDIT: I'm not saying Balance isn't good or broken, just that you can't run it out there on any board and have it work the way you really want it to. Mana Drain will always be, at minimum, a hard counter.
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I disagree with that too. I find Counterspell highly powered and I'll run it in any half U or better deck. I'd say its value has increased owing to all the great ETB effects that we have now - removal won't prevent those, but countermagic will.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Fair enough.
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I remember a long time ago opening a legends pack and getting a Mana Drain. This was before it was unrestricted. I traded the Mana Drain for some cards including an unlimited Psionic Blast. Dumbest decision in my life. I really like Mana Drain. Once they unrestricted it that made me really want to have 4 of them in a deck. I don't know if you would ban it. I'm currently playing Jitte in my cube and seeing how it works. I have both Demonic Tutor and Mind Twist in my cube. Was thinking of adding Recurring Nightmare. Both Mind Twist and Recurring Nigtmare are probably the most powerful black cards you could have in your cube. I have a lot of powerful cards in my black, red and white sections of my cube. I don't have many powerful blue cards because a lot of them are expensive. The very top rated blue cards end up including Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Jace 2.0 and Mana Drain. I could run Jace 3.0 but I don't like the idea of someone getting milled to death. I'm pretty sure others have this same feeling towards Jace 3.0.
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You should probably cut it for balance's sake, but like the other cards, you remember only the fun and not the brokenness.
When they reprinted Icy Manipulator in Ice Age I traded Dual lands for Icys straight up.
This kind of makes me a little sick, that ol' bastard hindsight.
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