I've beat a T2 Jace memory adept before by attacking him with dudes. After I did that I've come to realize he's not as good as you think, and if he doesn't kill you he did nothing. It's an interesting mini game he creates, and it's plenty interactive because it can be stopped in the combat phase, which is a very prevalent phase in my cube.
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Jace is ultimately an extremely powerful but narrow finisher. He is nowhere near autowin against any opponent more competent than a goldfish and with a hand equal to or better than a Hank Aaron baseball card, Magikarp and a four of clubs. He kills extremely fast, but can be attacked to death unlke other finishers. He's in the top tier of blue finishers, but has his disadvantages, just like every other blue finisher. He's worse in the aggro matchup and better in the midrange/control matchup, for example, than some of the other blue finishers. There's nothing special, broken, imbalanced, or overpowered about him. Most cards we use aren't intended primarily for limited formats. It makes no difference. He's not the best card ever, he's not broken (why would it even matter if he was? We run P9 for heaven's sake), but he's plenty good enough to run if your group likes him. Which is the same metric that we use for every other card in our cubes, by the way.
I agree with pretty much all of this, except the exasperation at the discussion at all. The debate on how he plays, his effect (or lack thereof) on game states and victories is indeed trying to determine his exact ranking of brokenness because not all of us WANT to run every broken thing (or linear thing, or planeswalker, or mill card or any other classification this card might get). The more thoroughly we debate any card, the better each of us will be able to choose fully informed.
Jace, Memory Adept: I don't feel like he's overpowered or unfun, not in a powered cube. On a crowded board the blue mage will play it to cantrip and hope for a better answer to the board state. On a clear board he's obviously good but then the control player had already stabilized. In the end I think that blue finishers are underpowered when compared to the other colors/artifacts finishers. I've decided to keep it in for the moment because I don't feel like other blue finishers are much better:
Keiga, the Tide Star: This card is just getting harder and harder to justify. It's still good enough for 360 cubes but it often does nothing.
Morphling: I still find it 360 material but it does not fit in a lot of decks.
Consecrated Sphinx : I don't run him because I feel blue decks don't want to run an excessive amount of finishers. Drawing 2 cards before he gets killed won't save you if you didn't get your next finisher. Honestly I didn't play test him so I might be wrong.
Frost Titan: I don't run him either, I feel he's too vulnerable and the etb ability is too weak if he gets killed early.
With those 6 finishers none compares favorably to other colors and Meloku the Clouded Mirror is probably the only clear staple. From there you can pretty much pick any other of the 5 cards and you wouldn't be wrong or right.
Jace, Memory Adept: I don't feel like he's overpowered or unfun, not in a powered cube. On a crowded board the blue mage will play it to cantrip and hope for a better answer to the board state. On a clear board he's obviously good but then the control player had already stabilized. In the end I think that blue finishers are underpowered when compared to the other colors/artifacts finishers. I've decided to keep it in for the moment because I don't feel like other blue finishers are much better:
Keiga, the Tide Star: This card is just getting harder and harder to justify. It's still good enough for 360 cubes but it often does nothing.
Morphling: I still find it 360 material but it does not fit in a lot of decks.
Consecrated Sphinx : I don't run him because I feel blue decks don't want to run an excessive amount of finishers. Drawing 2 cards before he gets killed won't save you if you didn't get your next finisher. Honestly I didn't play test him so I might be wrong.
Frost Titan: I don't run him either, I feel he's too vulnerable and the etb ability is too weak if he gets killed early.
With those 6 finishers none compares favorably to other colors and Meloku the Clouded Mirror is probably the only clear staple. From there you can pretty much pick any other of the 5 cards and you wouldn't be wrong or right.
We need better blue finishers!
Of the 5 creatures named, I feel like Consecrated Sphinx is the best Blue finisher, then its Frost Titan and Keiga. I absolutely hate Meloku, he is awful. To me, its like how others feel about Aether Vial and Top in Cube. I don't find him anywhere near staple material and he was cut fairly quick from our underpowered cube, which is a shame because I had extremely high expectations of him, and with me being the person who probably drafts blue the most in my group, I can say from experience, I don't think he is good.
Of the 5 creatures named, I feel like Consecrated Sphinx is the best Blue finisher, then its Frost Titan and Keiga. I absolutely hate Meloku, he is awful. To me, its like how others feel about Aether Vial and Top in Cube. I don't find him anywhere near staple material and he was cut fairly quick from our underpowered cube, which is a shame because I had extremely high expectations of him, and with me being the person who probably drafts blue the most in my group, I can say from experience, I don't think he is good.
All fair, I may not agree but it kind of proves my point; there isn't any clear winner. I don't see people debating the value of Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Inferno Titan, Woodfall Primus or Wurmcoil Engine. Arguments against those cards are hard to find and they are generally considered core staples. All the blue finishers have a big weakness. You can run any of those 5 blue finishers or Jace, Memory Adept and you won't make a wrong choice because of the relative lower power level.
@Jace 3.0
Our cube is powered and I don't have an issue at all with Jace 3.0.
I have lost many games to Jace but he's clearly not overpowered even in limited. As everyone said, if he doesn't kill you, he will make you only stronger ;).
Isn't that kinda the point of a powered cube? Powerful threats, powerful answers? Sorry if I'm off base here, but in the early stages of drafting my cube the most common phrase offered by the players who got blown out by fast, ridiculous game states was "let's play another". By now they all know the cube better and those blow outs happen a lot less, however. Jace, Memory Adept as a finisher works like every other finisher, if it isn't answered, it's ridiculous, but it can be answered. And usually more readily than say, a big evasive creature.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror is far and away the best finisher in blue. All the others are really close (to each other) but they're nowhere near as good as he is. Right now I'm playing Frost Titan and Consecrated Sphinx, and I'm probably going to axe the Titan soon to get Keiga, the Tide Star back. I've been playing the Titan over her for a while now, and I don't like him as much. As far as finishers go, I still like Morphling more than the 6-drops because of its consistency. It protects me and gets the job done every single time. Consecrated Sphinx is a bomb, but it's unreliable as a finisher because it doesn't protect itself. It's more like a big draw spell than a finishing creature.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror is far and away the best finisher in blue. All the others are really close (to each other) but they're nowhere near as good as he is. Right now I'm playing Frost Titan and Consecrated Sphinx, and I'm probably going to axe the Titan soon to get Keiga, the Tide Star back. I've been playing the Titan over her for a while now, and I don't like him as much.
Complete agree.
As far as finishers go, I still like Morphling more than the 6-drops because of its consistency. It protects me and gets the job done every single time. Consecrated Sphinx is a bomb, but it's unreliable as a finisher because it doesn't protect itself. It's more like a big draw spell than a finishing creature.
I don't think so. There may be better finishers in other colors, but I am quite happy with all the blue finishers that I run at 600 cards. Blue has so many insane spells and a few very good utility creatures that it is still one of the - if not the - best colors in cube. Not having the best finishers, too, is just a matter of balance and justice.
I don't think so. There may be better finishers in other colors, but I am quite happy with all the blue finishers that I run at 600 cards. Blue has so many insane spells and a few very good utility creatures that it is still one of the - if not the - best colors in cube. Not having the best finishers, too, is just a matter of balance and justice.
Agree. I see no problem with the power level of the blue finishers, especially if you add in stuff like Upheaval, Capsize, the Jaces, Tamiyo, Bribery, Treachery, and Tezzeret.
I'll go against the grain here and say that I wouldn't mind more blue finisher options. There were a lot of options for us at 450, but no standouts at 320. Meloku is still really good but he's not a true finisher, and Frost Titan and Keiga have both underwhelmed me a little. C. Sphinx is awesome, but not a 'true' finisher. I'm tempted to give Morphling or Jwar Jwar another run, both I'm also not the biggest fan of either at this level.
I'm not my usual optimistic self on this topic
EDIT: Obviously leaving Jace 3.0 out for a moment, as I run him too, and he has his own set of problems.
This really seems like a spot where which of these cards you run just is not particularly important. None of them really support or detract from particular archetypes, and none of them are particularly fun, unfun, or powerful. Seems like a good spot to rotate stuff in and out to keep things fresh.
This really seems like a spot where which of these cards you run just is not particularly important. None of them really support or detract from particular archetypes, and none of them are particularly fun, unfun, or powerful. Seems like a good spot to rotate stuff in and out to keep things fresh.
I agree completely. I play Meloku, SoJI, Jace 3, and Consecrated Sphinx right now, but I could easily swap in Keiga or Frosty anytime I wanted some variety. I kinda like that. It means you don't get tired of the same old cards, but you don't really sacrifice quality either
I went to my lgs this week and cubed with my own cube with a bunch of people and they all freaked the heck out when they saw jace, memory adept in my 360 unpowered. They started saying that in their powered cubes he was the most powerful card in cube bar-none and so they didn't include him and he was unfair and you couldn't win when your opponent played him even if he got only one activation off.
I was really surprised as while he is scary to see he really isn't hard to stop BBE, dreadbore, haste creatures, if you have any board presence whatsoever he is glimpse the unthinkable. He is just like any other ridiculous bomb in my cube and i can't understand the hatred, except if you hate the planeswalker type in general. Honestly JTMS is more frustrating to play against.
I tried to explain that a 5 cmc spell that can either do absolutely nothing (if killed in 1 turn, sometimes 2) or can win the game is fine. sure if the guy gets a couple wraths and cheap counterspells to protect him he deserves to win. Its like complaining about a turn 1 sol ring or mana vault, or a turn 6 grave titan.
I went to my lgs this week and cubed with my own cube with a bunch of people and they all freaked the heck out when they saw jace, memory adept in my 360 unpowered. They started saying that in their powered cubes he was the most powerful card in cube bar-none and so they didn't include him and he was unfair and you couldn't win when your opponent played him even if he got only one activation off.
I was really surprised as while he is scary to see he really isn't hard to stop BBE, dreadbore, haste creatures, if you have any board presence whatsoever he is glimpse the unthinkable. He is just like any other ridiculous bomb in my cube and i can't understand the hatred, except if you hate the planeswalker type in general. Honestly JTMS is more frustrating to play against.
I tried to explain that a 5 cmc spell that can either do absolutely nothing (if killed in 1 turn, sometimes 2) or can win the game is fine. sure if the guy gets a couple wraths and cheap counterspells to protect him he deserves to win. Its like complaining about a turn 1 sol ring or mana vault, or a turn 6 grave titan.
Well done, that is the same thing I would have said to them.
I love the premise that Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus isn't too powerful, but a 5mana planeswalker that wins the game in 2-3 turns if protected and not interacted with in any way is . . . .
Seriously. I've considered cutting Jace because he's so linear, you really have to build a deck that can protect him and proactively controls the board the entire game. That said, if he comes down, and you protect him for several turns, you win. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
I love the premise that Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus isn't too powerful, but a 5mana planeswalker that wins the game in 2-3 turns if protected and not interacted with in any way is . . . .
Seriously. I've considered cutting Jace because he's so linear, you really have to build a deck that can protect him and proactively controls the board the entire game. That said, if he comes down, and you protect him for several turns, you win. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
Because if he uses his 0 once you only have 20 cards left in your library! and i want to run draw go and let him resolve. You big meanie
I love the premise that Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus isn't too powerful, but a 5mana planeswalker that wins the game in 2-3 turns if protected and not interacted with in any way is . . . .
Seriously. I've considered cutting Jace because he's so linear, you really have to build a deck that can protect him and proactively controls the board the entire game. That said, if he comes down, and you protect him for several turns, you win. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
I can't. I really can't. It was average enough for me to decide to cut it for something more interesting. Too broken for cube? Not in my experience. At all.
Would you play a 5cmc walker with a 0 ability of "~ deals 7 damage to target player. If that player has 20 or fewer cards in his or her library, ~ deals 10 damage instead"
Because that's kind of what this is. It's too good, I have taken him out of my 360 unpowered cube for Jace 4, who is still very good but not broken in the format
Would you play a 5cmc walker with a 0 ability of "~ deals 7 damage to target player. If that player has 20 or fewer cards in his or her library, ~ deals 10 damage instead"
Because that's kind of what this is. It's too good, I have taken him out of my 360 unpowered cube for Jace 4, who is still very good but not broken in the format
That's not at all what he is. That card combines with all the other cards you have to maybe kill them the turn you play him as a single fireball type burn spell.
It's more comparable to something that adds poison counters in a cube with no other poison effects, except that if you mill twice and get then down to single digit cards in library, it's relevant.
Here's my real question though: Why do you consider it "too good" for a 5 mana planeswalker that can't protect itself to win the game in 2-3 turns? For comparison's sake, Chandra Nalaar can't protect herself and in 3 turns she deals 12 damage to a player. She's obviously not overpowered beyond all reason. Why is Jace?
Would you play a 5cmc walker with a 0 ability of "~ deals 7 damage to target player. If that player has 20 or fewer cards in his or her library, ~ deals 10 damage instead"
Because that's kind of what this is. It's too good, I have taken him out of my 360 unpowered cube for Jace 4, who is still very good but not broken in the format
That's only what it does if they have 20 life left still. If they have anything less than that, he's much more comparable to other finishing cards.
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I agree with pretty much all of this, except the exasperation at the discussion at all. The debate on how he plays, his effect (or lack thereof) on game states and victories is indeed trying to determine his exact ranking of brokenness because not all of us WANT to run every broken thing (or linear thing, or planeswalker, or mill card or any other classification this card might get). The more thoroughly we debate any card, the better each of us will be able to choose fully informed.
http://cubetutor.com/cubeblog/993
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
Keiga, the Tide Star: This card is just getting harder and harder to justify. It's still good enough for 360 cubes but it often does nothing.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror: Solid finisher but not first pickable like it used to.
Morphling: I still find it 360 material but it does not fit in a lot of decks.
Consecrated Sphinx : I don't run him because I feel blue decks don't want to run an excessive amount of finishers. Drawing 2 cards before he gets killed won't save you if you didn't get your next finisher. Honestly I didn't play test him so I might be wrong.
Frost Titan: I don't run him either, I feel he's too vulnerable and the etb ability is too weak if he gets killed early.
With those 6 finishers none compares favorably to other colors and Meloku the Clouded Mirror is probably the only clear staple. From there you can pretty much pick any other of the 5 cards and you wouldn't be wrong or right.
We need better blue finishers!
Of the 5 creatures named, I feel like Consecrated Sphinx is the best Blue finisher, then its Frost Titan and Keiga. I absolutely hate Meloku, he is awful. To me, its like how others feel about Aether Vial and Top in Cube. I don't find him anywhere near staple material and he was cut fairly quick from our underpowered cube, which is a shame because I had extremely high expectations of him, and with me being the person who probably drafts blue the most in my group, I can say from experience, I don't think he is good.
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All fair, I may not agree but it kind of proves my point; there isn't any clear winner. I don't see people debating the value of Sun Titan, Grave Titan, Inferno Titan, Woodfall Primus or Wurmcoil Engine. Arguments against those cards are hard to find and they are generally considered core staples. All the blue finishers have a big weakness. You can run any of those 5 blue finishers or Jace, Memory Adept and you won't make a wrong choice because of the relative lower power level.
Isn't that kinda the point of a powered cube? Powerful threats, powerful answers? Sorry if I'm off base here, but in the early stages of drafting my cube the most common phrase offered by the players who got blown out by fast, ridiculous game states was "let's play another". By now they all know the cube better and those blow outs happen a lot less, however. Jace, Memory Adept as a finisher works like every other finisher, if it isn't answered, it's ridiculous, but it can be answered. And usually more readily than say, a big evasive creature.
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Complete agree.
Complete disagree.
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I don't think so. There may be better finishers in other colors, but I am quite happy with all the blue finishers that I run at 600 cards. Blue has so many insane spells and a few very good utility creatures that it is still one of the - if not the - best colors in cube. Not having the best finishers, too, is just a matter of balance and justice.
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Agree. I see no problem with the power level of the blue finishers, especially if you add in stuff like Upheaval, Capsize, the Jaces, Tamiyo, Bribery, Treachery, and Tezzeret.
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I'm not my usual optimistic self on this topic
EDIT: Obviously leaving Jace 3.0 out for a moment, as I run him too, and he has his own set of problems.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
That's a great point
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I was really surprised as while he is scary to see he really isn't hard to stop BBE, dreadbore, haste creatures, if you have any board presence whatsoever he is glimpse the unthinkable. He is just like any other ridiculous bomb in my cube and i can't understand the hatred, except if you hate the planeswalker type in general. Honestly JTMS is more frustrating to play against.
I tried to explain that a 5 cmc spell that can either do absolutely nothing (if killed in 1 turn, sometimes 2) or can win the game is fine. sure if the guy gets a couple wraths and cheap counterspells to protect him he deserves to win. Its like complaining about a turn 1 sol ring or mana vault, or a turn 6 grave titan.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
Well done, that is the same thing I would have said to them.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Seriously. I've considered cutting Jace because he's so linear, you really have to build a deck that can protect him and proactively controls the board the entire game. That said, if he comes down, and you protect him for several turns, you win. Can someone explain to me why this is a bad thing?
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Because if he uses his 0 once you only have 20 cards left in your library! and i want to run draw go and let him resolve. You big meanie
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I can't. I really can't. It was average enough for me to decide to cut it for something more interesting. Too broken for cube? Not in my experience. At all.
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Because that's kind of what this is. It's too good, I have taken him out of my 360 unpowered cube for Jace 4, who is still very good but not broken in the format
That's not at all what he is. That card combines with all the other cards you have to maybe kill them the turn you play him as a single fireball type burn spell.
It's more comparable to something that adds poison counters in a cube with no other poison effects, except that if you mill twice and get then down to single digit cards in library, it's relevant.
Here's my real question though: Why do you consider it "too good" for a 5 mana planeswalker that can't protect itself to win the game in 2-3 turns? For comparison's sake, Chandra Nalaar can't protect herself and in 3 turns she deals 12 damage to a player. She's obviously not overpowered beyond all reason. Why is Jace?
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That's only what it does if they have 20 life left still. If they have anything less than that, he's much more comparable to other finishing cards.
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