After grinding out a bunch of games with him and some buddies we came to the conclusion that this guy is a house. One thing I am personally noticing is that aggro cannot really swarm him effectively and control has a hard time killing or exiling him.
He is currently in my 360 and he has not lost his controller a game. Even in the cases he has been dying, people have been saving cards like Regrowth, Nostalgic Dreams, Yawgmoth's Will and various other ways to just bring him right back.
We discussed whether JTMS was more powerful in the cube or Karn and Karn seemed to be the victor.
So what are people's thoughts on Karn? What cube size is best for him and what are some other ways to interact with him a bit more?
I use Karn in my multiplayer cube, and appreciate him as a consistent source of colorless removal. His ultimate though makes me a bit leery, as folks in the group would likely just concede instead of play out the extra game. I've even had a few friends threaten to quit the session outright if his ultimate was primed to go off. Of course they could have been bluffing, but an "I win" clause on a card can be a pretty good justification for excluding a card from a cube.
In 1v1 cubes (which I don't own a powered/unpowered version of), I'd expect that he's totally fair game, if expensive CMC-wise.
He's a wonderful seven mana finisher for every colour combination. That last bit can't be stressed enough. You're saving a fair few slots in each colour by offering this guy to drafters, alongside Myr Battlesphere. By not being an artifact or creature, he's also not massively abusable like the latter is. That may turn some drafters off, but I'm still happy to run both at 330 cards. When he doesn't force a scoop outright, he's sometimes just a seven mana colourless Vindicate with a bit of lifegain and that's fine too.
PS: Hi everyone, I've been away a while! Nice to be back.
He's a wonderful seven mana finisher for every colour combination. That last bit can't be stressed enough. You're saving a fair few slots in each colour by offering this guy to drafters, alongside Myr Battlesphere. By not being an artifact or creature, he's also not massively abusable like the latter is. That may turn some drafters off, but I'm still happy to run both at 330 cards. When he doesn't force a scoop outright, he's sometimes just a seven mana colourless Vindicate with a bit of lifegain and that's fine too.
PS: Hi everyone, I've been away a while! Nice to be back.
Welcome back.
While it is sad that he cannot be Tinkered or Welded, it is nice that he can't get Disenchanted or sex monkeyed. Being colorless is a ridiculous boon thanks to all the great ways to dump this guy out onto an unsuspecting board turn 5.
Well, for the most part, I think Karn usually goes -4 immediately. It is bonkers that his loyalty is +/- 4. That's a huge amount given his first +4 brings him to 10 beefy loyalty. Definitely great, I don't see him leaving ever.
Now JTMS or Karn? I'm sure you went through all the reasons with your friends, but given the choice early in the packs, I'd probably go JTMS.
A lot of it stemmed from the fact that with things like Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, people who are playing it in my 360 are dumping him out turn 3 or 4 with consistency, because people who are running colored finishers are sometimes passing this guy up in favor of other things.
I like him in the cube, it lets control and ramp players alike have something quite powerful to end a game with regardless of their colors, what I dislike is that he is doing it a bit too effectively.
I understand that, but I guess as opposed to 7+ drop creatures, Karn has yet to lose a game he has landed in and I guess that is what I was concerned about. There is less interaction with him than any other 7+ drop in the cube.
I understand that, but I guess as opposed to 7+ drop creatures, Karn has yet to lose a game he has landed in and I guess that is what I was concerned about. There is less interaction with him than any other 7+ drop in the cube.
Conversely, it has the drawback of not being able to be cheated into play early like 7+cc creatures and artifacts do. Hardcasting 7-mana cards should result in winning most of the games they resolve in. Karn is really good, but he's not unbeatable. It's exactly what I expect from a 7-mana cube card.
Karn is always picked very, very high when we cube. Often above JTMS, even (had them in the same pack a few times, surprisingly lol). Usually wins a game once he's out, yes, but as wtwlf123 said, hardcasting a 7-drop tends to do that.We see Karn be P1P1 frequently.
He has been put into play on average turn 3 or 4...
Like I said, more often than not people are choosing him when they have things like Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith, but passing him up in favor of fat creatures when they don't. It is not so much about him being unbeatable as it is maybe I am lacking enough answers for other decks to fully interact with him. RGw Aggro was crushing in the cube for us up until people started just dropping Karn turn 3 or 4, most people seem to feel if you can't cheat him into play you should play other things that can still stall out the aggro decks.
He has been put into play on average turn 3 or 4...
Like I said, more often than not people are choosing him when they have things like Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith...
I don't think that Karn is the overpowered card in these situations. Perhaps the cube needs more artifact removal and disruption spells. Maybe you need more PW bullets. Maybe you need more of all three.
I don't think that Karn is the overpowered card in these situations. Perhaps the cube needs more artifact removal and disruption spells. Maybe you need more PW bullets. Maybe you need more of all three.
That is kind of what I am trying to get at. I had originally cut some artifact removal simply because it was not seeing enough play, so I thinned it down.
I was just curious if anyone else had this going on with their cube groups I guess.
He has been put into play on average turn 3 or 4...
Like I said, more often than not people are choosing him when they have things like Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith, but passing him up in favor of fat creatures when they don't. It is not so much about him being unbeatable as it is maybe I am lacking enough answers for other decks to fully interact with him. RGw Aggro was crushing in the cube for us up until people started just dropping Karn turn 3 or 4, most people seem to feel if you can't cheat him into play you should play other things that can still stall out the aggro decks.
This is a small sample size problem. If he is really coming into play on average turn 3 or 4 (and I am skeptical...) then he is not the problem. When you are able to reliably get to 7 mana by turn 3.5 without the opponent establishing a superior board position, then taking out Karn will solve nothing.
I think you will find that you are overreacting, and that the card is great, but no more than average in power level for a 360 card cube.
This is a small sample size problem. If he is really coming into play on average turn 3 or 4 (and I am skeptical...) then he is not the problem. When you are able to reliably get to 7 mana by turn 3.5 without the opponent establishing a superior board position, then taking out Karn will solve nothing.
I think you will find that you are overreacting, and that the card is great, but no more than average in power level for a 360 card cube.
Is your cube posted?
We played about 24 games and I am sampling from the games he was played which was about 8. The other games he was left sitting in a SB.
The issue I am seeing is that people are playing either UW, UB or UWB in response to GRw or GWr aggro because it is giving them a multitude of sweepers and access to JTMS and Karn, Liberated. Every now and then people will go for a little reanimator or some stax or even a tempo deck, but the aggro decks are just seeming to overrun them. Even the control decks with multiple sweeps are seeming to have a bit of trouble. Not sure what it is. I have played the aggro decks to see if I could find out what was going on and for apparently not having enough aggro, there are enough combinations to make the deck insane in many configurations. Which is where I like that to remain. But as a reaction, the control decks are trying to dump Karn out as early as possible.
I kind of asked why Karn was in the SB when he was in there and it was pretty plain that without the mana stones he was just not effective enough, people would rather take Kederekt Leviathan, Grave Titan and in some cases even Butcher Orgg over Karn because they are able to help control an aggressive board.
I put Karn in the cube because I am a fan. I love what he does and I love that any set of colors can play him.
My cube list is posted but it is so out of date. I will update it and get some insight on it to see if I can't balance it out.
I posted here because some people think he should be cut and I am quite impartial. I would rather adjust the possible answers than cut any card to be honest.
Currently Karn ends almost every game he is casted in. I can recall two games where I beat him (Thanks to Vampire Hexmage and Zealous Conscripts).
My cube runs no fast mana yet he is very first pickable (all mana producing artifacts produce less mana than they cost). I'm not quite sure that he is better than Jace$$ which has so many abilities. You always have 3 choices when Jace is in play, that makes him VERY powerful but hard to use, compared to KARN SMASH!
Honestly if Karn is a problem for you guys then I would cut him. There is nothing wrong with cutting a card that your playgroup perceives as overpowered or unfun; it's simply called balancing your cube. Everyone's cube, playgroup, and meta is different and just because you cut Karn for being too good doesn't mean your cube is bad. I would rather cut one overpowered card instead of adding dozens of answers that may not even solve the problem.
I would rather improve the other cards than cut something for being too powerful. I'd figure out what's causing the problem and fix it. But there may not be a problem to begin with. It could be a lucky streak that Karn's having for all you know. But most fully powered cubes with equal balance between aggro, mid-range and control strategies shouldn't really have cards that are "too good". There are certainly cards that are powerful against certain strategies, but I imagine Karn should be pretty low on the list of unbeatable monster cube cards if you're using all the other typical cube powerhouses. It should have nothing on Armageddon, for example.
A lot of it stemmed from the fact that with things like Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, people who are playing it in my 360 are dumping him out turn 3 or 4 with consistency, because people who are running colored finishers are sometimes passing this guy up in favor of other things.
I like him in the cube, it lets control and ramp players alike have something quite powerful to end a game with regardless of their colors, what I dislike is that he is doing it a bit too effectively.
Maybe the problem is fast mana and not Karn? Cards like Wurmcoil, Battlesphere, and Karn made me want to cut my fast mana.
I am going to give the cube a good look over. I really do not want to cut Karn, he does what I want him to do and the mana stones are doing what I want them to do, but I guess I did not expect it to be so consistent? Wurmcoil Engine is something that tinker mages, and control players seem to fight over Karn is not.
I will give it another week of testing as is and see if I cannot find a solution. I was really curious if anyone else ever had this issue I guess is what it is boiling down to.
I don't know anything better for my ramp decks to ramp into.
My cube doesn't have a better centerpiece for the artifact.deck unless you go the Tinker route.
I didn't include him in my original 450 and that was possibly the biggest miss I've ever had in the short history of my cube. Karn Liberated is fun to play with, satisfying to draft, not impossible to beat, but able to help someone come back against almost any deck archtype. Love Karn.
I was really curious if anyone else ever had this issue I guess is what it is boiling down to.
Yes. There are cards that we found too oppressive for our tastes so they were cut. I know other cubes in the area also have personal banned lists that are quite a bit different from ours. It just goes to show how different play styles affect card choices.
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After grinding out a bunch of games with him and some buddies we came to the conclusion that this guy is a house. One thing I am personally noticing is that aggro cannot really swarm him effectively and control has a hard time killing or exiling him.
He is currently in my 360 and he has not lost his controller a game. Even in the cases he has been dying, people have been saving cards like Regrowth, Nostalgic Dreams, Yawgmoth's Will and various other ways to just bring him right back.
We discussed whether JTMS was more powerful in the cube or Karn and Karn seemed to be the victor.
So what are people's thoughts on Karn? What cube size is best for him and what are some other ways to interact with him a bit more?
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
In 1v1 cubes (which I don't own a powered/unpowered version of), I'd expect that he's totally fair game, if expensive CMC-wise.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
PS: Hi everyone, I've been away a while! Nice to be back.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Welcome back.
While it is sad that he cannot be Tinkered or Welded, it is nice that he can't get Disenchanted or sex monkeyed. Being colorless is a ridiculous boon thanks to all the great ways to dump this guy out onto an unsuspecting board turn 5.
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Now JTMS or Karn? I'm sure you went through all the reasons with your friends, but given the choice early in the packs, I'd probably go JTMS.
360 Uncommons only Cube!
I like him in the cube, it lets control and ramp players alike have something quite powerful to end a game with regardless of their colors, what I dislike is that he is doing it a bit too effectively.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Conversely, it has the drawback of not being able to be cheated into play early like 7+cc creatures and artifacts do. Hardcasting 7-mana cards should result in winning most of the games they resolve in. Karn is really good, but he's not unbeatable. It's exactly what I expect from a 7-mana cube card.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Like I said, more often than not people are choosing him when they have things like Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith, but passing him up in favor of fat creatures when they don't. It is not so much about him being unbeatable as it is maybe I am lacking enough answers for other decks to fully interact with him. RGw Aggro was crushing in the cube for us up until people started just dropping Karn turn 3 or 4, most people seem to feel if you can't cheat him into play you should play other things that can still stall out the aggro decks.
I don't think that Karn is the overpowered card in these situations. Perhaps the cube needs more artifact removal and disruption spells. Maybe you need more PW bullets. Maybe you need more of all three.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
That is kind of what I am trying to get at. I had originally cut some artifact removal simply because it was not seeing enough play, so I thinned it down.
I was just curious if anyone else had this going on with their cube groups I guess.
This is a small sample size problem. If he is really coming into play on average turn 3 or 4 (and I am skeptical...) then he is not the problem. When you are able to reliably get to 7 mana by turn 3.5 without the opponent establishing a superior board position, then taking out Karn will solve nothing.
I think you will find that you are overreacting, and that the card is great, but no more than average in power level for a 360 card cube.
Is your cube posted?
We played about 24 games and I am sampling from the games he was played which was about 8. The other games he was left sitting in a SB.
The issue I am seeing is that people are playing either UW, UB or UWB in response to GRw or GWr aggro because it is giving them a multitude of sweepers and access to JTMS and Karn, Liberated. Every now and then people will go for a little reanimator or some stax or even a tempo deck, but the aggro decks are just seeming to overrun them. Even the control decks with multiple sweeps are seeming to have a bit of trouble. Not sure what it is. I have played the aggro decks to see if I could find out what was going on and for apparently not having enough aggro, there are enough combinations to make the deck insane in many configurations. Which is where I like that to remain. But as a reaction, the control decks are trying to dump Karn out as early as possible.
I kind of asked why Karn was in the SB when he was in there and it was pretty plain that without the mana stones he was just not effective enough, people would rather take Kederekt Leviathan, Grave Titan and in some cases even Butcher Orgg over Karn because they are able to help control an aggressive board.
I put Karn in the cube because I am a fan. I love what he does and I love that any set of colors can play him.
My cube list is posted but it is so out of date. I will update it and get some insight on it to see if I can't balance it out.
I posted here because some people think he should be cut and I am quite impartial. I would rather adjust the possible answers than cut any card to be honest.
My cube runs no fast mana yet he is very first pickable (all mana producing artifacts produce less mana than they cost). I'm not quite sure that he is better than Jace$$ which has so many abilities. You always have 3 choices when Jace is in play, that makes him VERY powerful but hard to use, compared to KARN SMASH!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Maybe the problem is fast mana and not Karn? Cards like Wurmcoil, Battlesphere, and Karn made me want to cut my fast mana.
I will give it another week of testing as is and see if I cannot find a solution. I was really curious if anyone else ever had this issue I guess is what it is boiling down to.
My cube doesn't have a better centerpiece for the artifact.deck unless you go the Tinker route.
I didn't include him in my original 450 and that was possibly the biggest miss I've ever had in the short history of my cube. Karn Liberated is fun to play with, satisfying to draft, not impossible to beat, but able to help someone come back against almost any deck archtype. Love Karn.
Yes. There are cards that we found too oppressive for our tastes so they were cut. I know other cubes in the area also have personal banned lists that are quite a bit different from ours. It just goes to show how different play styles affect card choices.