I agree with everyone else. Library is nuts, but it's still preference. I have it in my nonpowered cube because my playgroup loves it, just like splinter twin combo. I would put Library in the "Mind Twist, Plow Under, Moat, True Name Nemesis" group of unfun/noninteractive cards.
Yeah you should not play this one a unpowered list if you worry about powerlevel equity. This card is not in the same range as the ones you've mentionned. Library is certainly the best card in the format.
I agree with everyone else. Library is nuts, but it's still preference. I have it in my nonpowered cube because my playgroup loves it, just like splinter twin combo. I would put Library in the "Mind Twist, Plow Under, Moat, True Name Nemesis" group of unfun/noninteractive cards.
Yeah, those cards are not remotely close to library. The only card remotely close to being better than library is sol ring IMO, with moxen and lotus being close but not defendable as "better."
I agree with everyone else. Library is nuts, but it's still preference. I have it in my nonpowered cube because my playgroup loves it, just like splinter twin combo. I would put Library in the "Mind Twist, Plow Under, Moat, True Name Nemesis" group of unfun/noninteractive cards.
Yeah, those cards are not remotely close to library. The only card remotely close to being better than library is sol ring IMO, with moxen and lotus being close but not defendable as "better."
I think you can absolutely defend Lotus as close/on par/sometimes better than Library of Alexandria. For as many games as Library closes out with continual card draw, Black Lotus closes out games with that burst and ahead-of-curve play that no other card can offer on turn 1. Like, dropping a planes walker or hard-to-remove creature off a black lotus on the first turn is so often game. Also if that black lotus start goes against the library start, it's not rare that the black lotus start will beat that library start. Also-also Black Lotus is a much better draw if it's not in your opener, whereas a non-opener library is often a colorless land. And, Black Lotus goes in absolutely every deck, whereas Library is still good in decks that want to empty their hand fast but not nearly as good as it could be or as lotus performs there, i.e. aggro builds, artifact flood decks, etc. I've also found that in rotisserie drafting a powered cube that, depending on the number of players, you may not have time for that Library of Alexandria deck, at least to pick it high up; like if you're doing a 4-person rotisserie than everyones decks end up so streamlined and have such quick bursts that your hands are almost never full consistently enough because of fast mana. The decks that have library will often either fall behind to an opposing board of all mana rocks if they try to library away the value, or Library turns off early and it feels bad when you spend a high pick on it.
I think they're very close and there are indeed spots where the library is the better card, but I think Sol Ring-Library-Lotus are all on the same tier with enough clear spots where Lotus is better that it is defendable as a better card, or at least I can see the arguments.
I think they're very close and there are indeed spots where the library is the better card, but I think Sol Ring-Library-Lotus are all on the same tier with enough clear spots where Lotus is better that it is defendable as a better card, or at least I can see the arguments.
The biggest difference I've seen between Library and Lotus is this: the decks with Library, regardless of archetype, tend to feel more "unfair" over the course of the draft. When Lotus breaks a game turn one, it does so spectacularly, whereas a turn one Library might look innocuous, but really the game is often just as forgone as the one with Lotus, if not moreso. Lotus can come late (admittedly so can Library), the creature played off it gets Plowed, or any number of other answers make the what you did with Lotus look rather pedestrian. And then there's Library which, game by game and turn by turn, is slowly, painfully burying your opponent in CA.
I can recall coming back from an early Lotus a lot more than I can coming back from an active Library.
There are just a large number of plays you can make off that turn 1 lotus that are tough to answer on 1-2 mana. Like, sure, they can get plowed, but how many plows/paths are there? How many realistic answers is my opponent going to have on that 1st-2nd turn? And when that lotus comes late, it's still often relevant unless it comes late in a deck with a super low curve. And a t1 Library isn't always foregone, as an aggressive start will hurt the library deck as they are playing a mana behind if they want to continue drawing or the small number of discard spells can turn it off. AND the more super-awesome PWers that get printed, the better Lotus gets as you have that many more plays which only a Lightning Bolt can hope to answer off one land if the loyalty is within reach.
I mean, really, IMO Sol Ring-Lotus-Library are neck-and-neck and it feels like stretching to have to put one above the other because they are such different cards that do such different things in different decks, but there are enough spots where Lotus outshines Library that it can be argued that Lotus is the better, and vice versa, and Sol Ring too.
I like library less than most here, but even with my bias against it , I acknowledgr it's easily in the top 10 in a high powered fast cube.
The slower the format (unpowered) The better it is. In an unpowered format, I could see it being the best card ever printed.
Has no business in an unpowered cube.
I believe Libray of Alexandria is one of the best, if not the best card in cube. Reason I'm writing this is because I was watching LSV playing cube the other day, and the picked ponder or something like that over it, saying library is overrated is very mediocre.
Interesting how differently MTG-players view some cards.
Library is definitely an extremely powerful card. Turn 1 Library has been incredibly and can easily bury the opponent in card advantage.
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And he had it really high in his 2018 power rankings for cube. Not sure what he feels changed.
But classifying something as overrated =! bad. I believe he thinks the card is good, but he thinks it's overrated by the community at large.
I think a large part of it is the structure of the MTGO vintage cube. You're heavily incentivized to do busted things on turn 4-6, and midrange strategies are particularly poor in such an environment. Library is also great with cheap interaction, but the MTGO cubes always feel slightly larger, and have a bit more jank in them than necessary, so you're unlikely to make a super consistent deck with library and 4+ >=2 mana counters.
FWIW he still thinks it's a great card, but in the environment which the MTGO vintage cube promotes he prioritizes fast mana and cards with immediate board impact over it. He still usually picks it if there's no other power in the pack.
They left out the part where Yawgmoth is resurrected,but has been cleansed as Yawgmoth the Redeemed,and now must awaken Chromium so that Karn can fuse with him and create what can only be known as : the ultimate taco.
Possibly, but the newest iteration of the MTGO list has neutered aggro so much that the extra 3-4 cards drawn off an opening-hand Library is even more valuable than before, and the decks where Library shines are even more improved. Maybe that's just my experience with it so far, but it feels better now if anything. Either way, it's still a great card.
I wouldn't presume why LSV feels the way he does about cube inclusions. He's also said that Signets are better than Talismen because the Talismen "do damage to you."
Library is obviously a good card. One kind of polarizing thing about Library for me is taking it early often pushes me to be in a more controlling deck, which isn't my most comfortable play style. At this past weekend's cube draft, I got Library P1P1 and then found myself in a Boros midrange planeswalker deck. The deck wasn't bad, but I feel like the Library in my pool heavily influenced my future picks and the final build of the deck. I know P1P1 shouldn't be that informative of the rest of your draft, but Library specifically can have this effect.
FWIW, the Library did end up technically losing me a match in that draft. My opponent was on a Rakdos aggro deck that had Sword of War and Peace to kill me two games in a row due to me keeping my hand full with Library. Good times.
I wouldn't presume why LSV feels the way he does about cube inclusions. He's also said that Signets are better than Talismen because the Talismen "do damage to you."
If your cube is more aggro focused, has a lot of pain effects, or minimizes life gain then he's not wrong. I find that with cards that fill similar roles which is 'better' often comes down to how they interact with their environment. Speaking of which...
LoA is a card that, alike Sol Ring and the Moxen are cards that shouldn't be in any cube that's not tuned to power, otherwise it generates so much card advantage that slower, unpowered cubes simply can't race against it outside of very discard heavy cube design. Drawing two cards a turn allows you to, functionally, play at twice the speed of the opponent. That it can go into most any deck because of it being a land, increases it's pick threshold into the Sol Ring/Mox category, which are also cards that belong nowhere near unpowered cubes due to the ridiculous advantages they generate.
Also, it's a card I strongly discourage balking at newer players for not getting, as it's an older card that breaks the fundamental game rules as newer players will have learned them, and requires a level of hand management they may still be learning. Sadly, there is no more recent, 'check at upkeep' style equivalent I know of that can be used for unpowered cubes, which likely speaks to the broken power level of that mechanic...
If your cube is more aggro focused, has a lot of pain effects, or minimizes life gain then he's not wrong. I find that with cards that fill similar roles which is 'better' often comes down to how they interact with their environment.
For sure. I wasn't trying to imply that he is somehow wrong, just that it's an unpopular opinion in the cube community, especially on these forums. Cube is what you make it and everyone has their preferences. We can all offer advice based on our own experiences, but at the end of the day preferring X to Y in cube will never be wrong if that choice is what you and your group prefer.
For sure. I wasn't trying to imply that he is somehow wrong, just that it's an unpopular opinion in the cube community, especially on these forums. Cube is what you make it and everyone has their preferences. We can all offer advice based on our own experiences, but at the end of the day preferring X to Y in cube will never be wrong if that choice is what you and your group prefer.
The apologies are mine, it seems I came off rudely without intent. Sorry for that. I was trying to reiterate the point. And also note how LoA lacks an easy comparison to make due it's unique effect, unlike how Talismans and Signets or various 4 CMC counters can be compared. Due to that, I think it makes it hard for newer players to familiarize themselves with a modernized/restrained version of the mechanic to easily recognize how broken the legacy version of it is.
Library is still a fine card in aggro decks. It's not the ideal home, and there are higher picks for aggro decks, but the fail case is still great. It's especially good in the mirror, where you can trade with the opponent and win the card advantage game.
Our banlist includes the following cards:
Moxen
Lotus
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Ancestral
And just added this year... Library
We had Library in for a while because it isn’t great in or against aggro, but what eventually put it on the banned list was that there were no other cards in the Cube that should be P1P1 over it. In our current list we feel that there is no clear #1 p1p1 in the 720.
Somewhat related - Time Walk is overrated. It’s a top 10 card in our 720 but nowhere near the power level of the cards on our banned list.
I honestly can't remember anyone ever losing a game with LoA in my cube. It's stupid good. I mean--you do have to play a weird game of 'keep my hand at 7' sometimes but I think it is 1st Pick pretty much every time, even then.
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Yeah, those cards are not remotely close to library. The only card remotely close to being better than library is sol ring IMO, with moxen and lotus being close but not defendable as "better."
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I think you can absolutely defend Lotus as close/on par/sometimes better than Library of Alexandria. For as many games as Library closes out with continual card draw, Black Lotus closes out games with that burst and ahead-of-curve play that no other card can offer on turn 1. Like, dropping a planes walker or hard-to-remove creature off a black lotus on the first turn is so often game. Also if that black lotus start goes against the library start, it's not rare that the black lotus start will beat that library start. Also-also Black Lotus is a much better draw if it's not in your opener, whereas a non-opener library is often a colorless land. And, Black Lotus goes in absolutely every deck, whereas Library is still good in decks that want to empty their hand fast but not nearly as good as it could be or as lotus performs there, i.e. aggro builds, artifact flood decks, etc. I've also found that in rotisserie drafting a powered cube that, depending on the number of players, you may not have time for that Library of Alexandria deck, at least to pick it high up; like if you're doing a 4-person rotisserie than everyones decks end up so streamlined and have such quick bursts that your hands are almost never full consistently enough because of fast mana. The decks that have library will often either fall behind to an opposing board of all mana rocks if they try to library away the value, or Library turns off early and it feels bad when you spend a high pick on it.
I think they're very close and there are indeed spots where the library is the better card, but I think Sol Ring-Library-Lotus are all on the same tier with enough clear spots where Lotus is better that it is defendable as a better card, or at least I can see the arguments.
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The biggest difference I've seen between Library and Lotus is this: the decks with Library, regardless of archetype, tend to feel more "unfair" over the course of the draft. When Lotus breaks a game turn one, it does so spectacularly, whereas a turn one Library might look innocuous, but really the game is often just as forgone as the one with Lotus, if not moreso. Lotus can come late (admittedly so can Library), the creature played off it gets Plowed, or any number of other answers make the what you did with Lotus look rather pedestrian. And then there's Library which, game by game and turn by turn, is slowly, painfully burying your opponent in CA.
I can recall coming back from an early Lotus a lot more than I can coming back from an active Library.
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I mean, really, IMO Sol Ring-Lotus-Library are neck-and-neck and it feels like stretching to have to put one above the other because they are such different cards that do such different things in different decks, but there are enough spots where Lotus outshines Library that it can be argued that Lotus is the better, and vice versa, and Sol Ring too.
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Yeah, unless you are bleeding-edge, full powered cube, library has no place lol.
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The slower the format (unpowered) The better it is. In an unpowered format, I could see it being the best card ever printed.
Has no business in an unpowered cube.
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Interesting how differently MTG-players view some cards.
And he had it really high in his 2018 power rankings for cube. Not sure what he feels changed.
But classifying something as overrated ≠ bad. I believe he thinks the card is good, but he thinks it's overrated by the community at large.
He feels the same way about Mind Twist, FWIW. Not sure I can agree with either assessment.
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I think a large part of it is the structure of the MTGO vintage cube. You're heavily incentivized to do busted things on turn 4-6, and midrange strategies are particularly poor in such an environment. Library is also great with cheap interaction, but the MTGO cubes always feel slightly larger, and have a bit more jank in them than necessary, so you're unlikely to make a super consistent deck with library and 4+ >=2 mana counters.
FWIW he still thinks it's a great card, but in the environment which the MTGO vintage cube promotes he prioritizes fast mana and cards with immediate board impact over it. He still usually picks it if there's no other power in the pack.
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Library is obviously a good card. One kind of polarizing thing about Library for me is taking it early often pushes me to be in a more controlling deck, which isn't my most comfortable play style. At this past weekend's cube draft, I got Library P1P1 and then found myself in a Boros midrange planeswalker deck. The deck wasn't bad, but I feel like the Library in my pool heavily influenced my future picks and the final build of the deck. I know P1P1 shouldn't be that informative of the rest of your draft, but Library specifically can have this effect.
FWIW, the Library did end up technically losing me a match in that draft. My opponent was on a Rakdos aggro deck that had Sword of War and Peace to kill me two games in a row due to me keeping my hand full with Library. Good times.
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If your cube is more aggro focused, has a lot of pain effects, or minimizes life gain then he's not wrong. I find that with cards that fill similar roles which is 'better' often comes down to how they interact with their environment. Speaking of which...
LoA is a card that, alike Sol Ring and the Moxen are cards that shouldn't be in any cube that's not tuned to power, otherwise it generates so much card advantage that slower, unpowered cubes simply can't race against it outside of very discard heavy cube design. Drawing two cards a turn allows you to, functionally, play at twice the speed of the opponent. That it can go into most any deck because of it being a land, increases it's pick threshold into the Sol Ring/Mox category, which are also cards that belong nowhere near unpowered cubes due to the ridiculous advantages they generate.
Also, it's a card I strongly discourage balking at newer players for not getting, as it's an older card that breaks the fundamental game rules as newer players will have learned them, and requires a level of hand management they may still be learning. Sadly, there is no more recent, 'check at upkeep' style equivalent I know of that can be used for unpowered cubes, which likely speaks to the broken power level of that mechanic...
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For sure. I wasn't trying to imply that he is somehow wrong, just that it's an unpopular opinion in the cube community, especially on these forums. Cube is what you make it and everyone has their preferences. We can all offer advice based on our own experiences, but at the end of the day preferring X to Y in cube will never be wrong if that choice is what you and your group prefer.
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The apologies are mine, it seems I came off rudely without intent. Sorry for that. I was trying to reiterate the point. And also note how LoA lacks an easy comparison to make due it's unique effect, unlike how Talismans and Signets or various 4 CMC counters can be compared. Due to that, I think it makes it hard for newer players to familiarize themselves with a modernized/restrained version of the mechanic to easily recognize how broken the legacy version of it is.
This user has language problems due to their mental health problems and sometimes may not use the best wording to explain their thoughts.
Draft the "'What Is This Nonsense?'" casual cube.
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Moxen
Lotus
Sol Ring
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Ancestral
And just added this year... Library
We had Library in for a while because it isn’t great in or against aggro, but what eventually put it on the banned list was that there were no other cards in the Cube that should be P1P1 over it. In our current list we feel that there is no clear #1 p1p1 in the 720.
Somewhat related - Time Walk is overrated. It’s a top 10 card in our 720 but nowhere near the power level of the cards on our banned list.
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I honestly can't remember anyone ever losing a game with LoA in my cube. It's stupid good. I mean--you do have to play a weird game of 'keep my hand at 7' sometimes but I think it is 1st Pick pretty much every time, even then.
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