Yes to pretty much all of those. Oracle, Nissa and T&N are musts in green to support this as an archetype, IMO. In addition to Mirari's Wake in WG. The artifact ramp and colorless targets are also important, for several "big" strategies, including super ramp. And they help make Channel a premiere card.
That’s kind of what I thought. I’m considering the idea of working on a somewhat simplified 450 list that does NOT include super ramp and here’s what I’m thinking:
I dislike Tooth and Nail and think it is far from necessary, in fact I do not cube it. It requires too much extreme top-end to be great, even in this archetype. I'd rather have another eldrazi or the like.
I like being able to Tooth and Nail for something big and dumb and a haste enabler, usually Maelstrom Wanderer, to kill on the spot.
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Other expensive cards win the game just as much in the comboless decks, but pose less restrictions on your build. Even if for some reason you think it is worth a spot in a cube, it is far from necessary for the archetype to function.
It's still the most powerful and most rewarding thing I can do with the mana. A deck with my 3 best fatties and a T&N is so much better than the same deck with 4 fatties in it. The deck can function without it, but it's powerful enough to be one of the reasons to build the deck in the first place.
Maybe that's where we disagree. We have super ramp decks with 2-3 super fatties in them regularly and there TNN is unplayable.
Even if you do consistently get 4+ 7+CC cards, and you consistently are able and sensibly want to maindeck them all, I'd be much more inclined as a cube designer to include a creature in TNN's slot. It will play better with all other cheat strategies with minimal impact to the super ramp player.
I don't agree that Tooth n Nail would be unplayable in a deck with 2-3 fatties, It pretty much allows you to always have 2 of those whenever you cast it, assuming they aren't already gone somehow. It ends up being an equivalently-costed tutor in that deck, along with other applications.
It wins the game so much more consistently than a single fat monster does though. They might have a path/plow for your one Ulamog, but when you drop two superfatties at the same time, the game is over.
And 2-3 superfatties is the perfect composition for T&N. Unplayable? How? Unless your opponent has hit you with a Jester's Cap, the game should end on the spot when it resolves. Drawn 2 of 'em already? Perfect. Put 2 8+cc monsters on the board for 7 mana. GG. Probably a turn faster than kicking it or casting either monster too.
Sure. When your draft only has one big monster in it, T&N isn't good. Luckily, that's never, ever happened to a T&N drafter a single time in the history of cubing for us, so it's not a problem we've had to hurdle.
Yeah I wouldn't replace a fatty, I'd have 2-3 + T&N, if I'm playing a dedicated ramp deck that shouldn't be a problem and is probably the amount of massive things I want as is (3-4).
It took me a while to find room for Tooth and Nail / Craterhoof Behemoth in my cube, been pretty happy with both of them. It’s not hard for a dedicated ramp deck to reach 8-10 mana, especially with multiple cards that give you +2 or more mana like Rolfellos / Garruk / Primeval Titan / Nissa / Worn Powerstone / Thran Dynamo / etc. The average entwined Tooth and Nail represents at least 14 mana worth and +4 card advantage.
Casting Tooth and Nail for 7 mana ain’t a bad option either in many scenarios.
I'd try quite hard to avoid four fatties (unless I have specific cheat mechanisms). I'd prefer having at least one of them be a mana sink that can be played for less mana when needed. Also, many green decks have creature tutors making the effective number of monsters higher (and no green tutor fetches TNN).
Every Super Ramp deck that features TNN can replace that card with a cubeable fattie of 7+ mana and still play basically the same and be competitive. It better be, as you have few ways in green to filter cards or find sorceries. TNN is somewhat akin to Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Grixis control decks would form even without the narrow payoff card.
But seriously, I don't think that replacing Tooth and Nail would make them more effective, even with tutors, because when you draw Tooth and Nail it's the best tutor you can play when you have that mana which the mega green ramp decks should. I don't disagree that the ramp decks still come together without Tooth and Nail, but when those decks draw Tooth and Nail it gives them a *huge* advantage of acting as the two best creatures in your deck most of the time, along with letting them combine silly things like Surrak/Conscript + huge guy or kiki combo. Tooth and Nail is the creature tutor on steroids, and I don't think not having a way to find sorceries or filter through cards really diminish that.
We basically agree then I think. I was thinking more about you cannot fetch your TNN with Survival or Zenith, where other fatties you otherwise would be able to. BTW Green Sun's Zenith is something I'd play over a fourth super-fattie (given enough targets of course).
GSZ is a bit different though, since it's not really competing for that 'fatty spot' as it also easily functions as an elf/midrange creature too. I would still play the same number of fatties in a deck with GSZ since it's also replacing an elf and anything else realistically and in fact almost always count it as an elf/ramp for that reason since if it's in my opener it's pretty much always going to be that specifically, whereas TNN is always going to be expensive so I might play 3 guys + TNN vs 4 guys straight up.
Agreeed that I don’t play more than 3 super fatties (7 mana and above) in one deck unless I’m specifically playing Reanimator / Show and Tell / Oath / etc.
Tooth and Nail isn’t a lynchpin for ramp, but it’s probably the best ramp payoff. Getting paid off for drafting around X build around is always fun for players.
What are the essential elements of this archetype that are “extra” components compared to regular ramp?
Oracle?
Nissa?
Hoof?
Terastodon?
T&N?
Basalt?
Powerstone?
Dynamo?
Gilded?
Eldrazi?
Ugin?
Thanks for feedback.
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1-2 CMC Dorks-yes
Cultivate/Kodama/YavElder-yes
Oracle-no
Nissa5-no
Terast-maybe
Channel-yes
Oath-yes
Eureka-yes
Selvalas-yes
T&N-no
Coalition-yes
Powerstone-yes
Basalt-no
Thran-no
Hedron-maybe
Gilded-no
Ulamog-no
Emrakul-yes
Karn-yes
Ugin-no
Thoughts?
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It also allows you to run kiki package in your deck without needing the fixing for it like Living Death does, if you want to get crazy.
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I don’t think this is crazy at all since the original Tooth and Nail in Standard did play Kiki-Jiki to copy Darksteel Colossus, hehe.
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Even if you do consistently get 4+ 7+CC cards, and you consistently are able and sensibly want to maindeck them all, I'd be much more inclined as a cube designer to include a creature in TNN's slot. It will play better with all other cheat strategies with minimal impact to the super ramp player.
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And 2-3 superfatties is the perfect composition for T&N. Unplayable? How? Unless your opponent has hit you with a Jester's Cap, the game should end on the spot when it resolves. Drawn 2 of 'em already? Perfect. Put 2 8+cc monsters on the board for 7 mana. GG. Probably a turn faster than kicking it or casting either monster too.
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Casting Tooth and Nail for 7 mana ain’t a bad option either in many scenarios.
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Every Super Ramp deck that features TNN can replace that card with a cubeable fattie of 7+ mana and still play basically the same and be competitive. It better be, as you have few ways in green to filter cards or find sorceries. TNN is somewhat akin to Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - Grixis control decks would form even without the narrow payoff card.
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Like Tooth & Nail?
But seriously, I don't think that replacing Tooth and Nail would make them more effective, even with tutors, because when you draw Tooth and Nail it's the best tutor you can play when you have that mana which the mega green ramp decks should. I don't disagree that the ramp decks still come together without Tooth and Nail, but when those decks draw Tooth and Nail it gives them a *huge* advantage of acting as the two best creatures in your deck most of the time, along with letting them combine silly things like Surrak/Conscript + huge guy or kiki combo. Tooth and Nail is the creature tutor on steroids, and I don't think not having a way to find sorceries or filter through cards really diminish that.
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Tooth and Nail isn’t a lynchpin for ramp, but it’s probably the best ramp payoff. Getting paid off for drafting around X build around is always fun for players.
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