Reckless Abandon is a card I rediscovered seaching through a junk box. What do you think?
Pro:
4 damage for 1 mana. Better rate than any card I am currently cubing. I love char and that costs R2 and does 2 damage to you.
Con:
Sacrifice a creature. I am not running any cards that make me do this for a reason. It is steep, but unlike goblin grenade I don't need to be tribal.
Pro:
Many cuber's red slices are getting super aggro but need a little more reach. They have lots of tiny guys, haste guys, echo guys, tokens, recursion guys etc. who are happy to be thrown at someone's face for 4 more damage.
Con:
Not an instant. As an instant I would play this any time. Something dying in combat or to a removal spell. Bang. But it is not.
No one is playing Fling and it is an instant and only costs 1 more, but I like that I can bomb one of my outclassed Jackal Pup or Shred-Freak to finish out a game.
As eidolon said, by the time doing 4 damage to the opponent gives you the win, you should be able to spend 2R for Char.
Technically speaking, Reckless Abandon costs at least 1R (can be spread over two turns), since you have to pay for a creature first.
Oh I wasn't considering it over char, but in addition becasue I want more 4 damage burn spells.;)
I was just looking at how many haste creatures I am now putting in red, many of which I hope to close out the game. But if hellrider or Thundermaw Hellkite dosen't get there how much mana do you have left over to burn them out? Esepcially with the geralf's messngers and such out there possibly doing more than 4.
Also if I am playing a hellspark elemental on turn two and unearthing on three, I have 1 man up for this. maybe a corner case, but one extra mana sitting around and wishing I had a lightning bolt happens a lot to me.
I currently am in need of a chain lighting and I might try this out in its spot until I trade for one.
Oh I wasn't considering it over char, but in addition becasue I want more 4 damage burn spells.;)
I was just looking at how many haste creatures I am now putting in red, many of which I hope to close out the game. But if hellrider or Thundermaw Hellkite dosen't get there how much mana do you have left over to burn them out? Esepcially with the geralf's messngers and such out there possibly doing more than 4.
Also if I am playing a hellspark elemental on turn two and unearthing on three, I have 1 man up for this. maybe a corner case, but one extra mana sitting around and wishing I had a lightning bolt happens a lot to me.
I currently am in need of a chain lighting and I might try this out in its spot until I trade for one.
Do you run flame javelin? That card is a 4 damage burn spell for 3 (4 outside of mono-red). I don't play that card but it kind of fits what you're saying. It's another 4 damage burn spell, and a way to close out games. It costs more, but will probably be played in the same "all in, heavy red" decks that would play reckless abandonment. It has some added bonuses.
1) it's an instant
2) it's a better top deck than reckless abandonment because it doesn't require a certain board state to be effective.
3) you can use it as a removal spell to clear the way for the little guys you would be sacrificing to reckless abandonment.
Do you run flame javelin? That card is a 4 damage burn spell for 3 (4 outside of mono-red). I don't play that card but it kind of fits what you're saying. It's another 4 damage burn spell, and a way to close out games. It costs more, but will probably be played in the same "all in, heavy red" decks that would play reckless abandonment. It has some added bonuses.
1) it's an instant
2) it's a better top deck than reckless abandonment because it doesn't require a certain board state to be effective.
3) you can use it as a removal spell to clear the way for the little guys you would be sacrificing to reckless abandonment.
Flame Javelin is only kind of sort of a 3 mana spell. I would rather run violent eruption. And I have on and off. It departed recently due to the 3 red and flame javelin would stay out for the same reason.
It's not just big red that I see enjoying it in. Now that I have built up by aggro red I have seen more boros/weenie decks, as well as a big improvement in the Rakdos decks. Both of those really enjoy burn closeout cards.
I think it's quite a good card, with great synergies with Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, etc. And I do think the low casting cost is relevant. It's why Fireblast is such a great card. On four mana you can Reckless Abandon andChar or RA andHell's Thunder. I probably wouldn't run it below 500 though.
I used to have it in my cube but cut it. The sacrifice meant that it was almost exclusively used to deal the last points of damage, and it felt as if more flexible burn spells were better. Maybe it deserves another look, as there are a number of creatures that are heading for the graveyard anyway, or that you want to go into the yard.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
I used to have it in my cube but cut it. The sacrifice meant that it was almost exclusively used to deal the last points of damage, and it felt as if more flexible burn spells were better. Maybe it deserves another look, as there are a number of creatures that are heading for the graveyard anyway, or that you want to go into the yard.
Hu, strange... Looking at the card I'd assume it would be good to deal with their 4 drops that would normally just chump and eat your armies of 2/2s for 1. The result is kind of the same in that instance, as you'd lose the guy either way, but at least this way you're dealing with their blocker, choosing which guy dies on your side, and potentially getting in for more damage.
I think it's quite a good card, with great synergies with Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, etc. And I do think the low casting cost is relevant. It's why Fireblast is such a great card. On four mana you can Reckless Abandon andChar or RA andHell's Thunder. I probably wouldn't run it below 500 though.
I have a 360 unpowered cube but I am still slowly acquiring the more expensive stuff and along the way I am trying out some lower profile choices that I happen to already have.
As I like to fiddle a lot with my mix I will probably try it for a while but I am guessing It wont stay. It has the spirit of a card that will be more favored in a deck I am trying to support more, but I have been generally moving to cards having more options than less.
But if hellrider or Thundermaw Hellkite dosen't get there how much mana do you have left over to burn them out? Esepcially with the geralf's messngers and such out there possibly doing more than 4.
But what circumstances where you curve out and slam Hellrider do you not win that Reckless Abandon will remedy? Having played Hellrider in Standard, I feel like I can confidently say that a good cube deck curving into Hellrider should probably be ending the game that turn.
If you haven't, you're probably winning next turn unless they kill all your creatures. At this point, any of your burn spells should do it, and you've got four whole mana to use. Reckless Abandon doesn't take advantage of you having no creatures or having four mana. Almost any X-Spell would be better at that stage of the game, or Flame Javelin, or Char.
But what circumstances where you curve out and slam Hellrider do you not win that Reckless Abandon will remedy? Having played Hellrider in Standard, I feel like I can confidently say that a good cube deck curving into Hellrider should probably be ending the game that turn.
If you haven't, you're probably winning next turn unless they kill all your creatures. At this point, any of your burn spells should do it, and you've got four whole mana to use. Reckless Abandon doesn't take advantage of you having no creatures or having four mana. Almost any X-Spell would be better at that stage of the game, or Flame Javelin, or Char.
This seems a bit overly optimistic. Opponents do stuff as well. They play Man o' War's, Wall of Roots, Tangle Wire, Mana Vault + Titan, gain life with Thragtusk or chump out tokens with PW. Curving out with Hellrider is far from a certain victory, unless your opponent doesn't do much.
Not that I don't agree with your main point. When you actually would want to cast Reckless Abandon, most of the time other burn would be just as playable, so why bother with something with a built in restriction?
Flame Javelin is also a burn spell that can be played outside of red. It's not great at 6 mana, but it could make your deck under certain circumstances.
This seems a bit overly optimistic. Opponents do stuff as well. They play Man o' War's, Wall of Roots, Tangle Wire, Mana Vault + Titan, gain life with Thragtusk or chump out tokens with PW. Curving out with Hellrider is far from a certain victory, unless your opponent doesn't do much.
Not that I don't agree with your main point. When you actually would want to cast Reckless Abandon, most of the time other burn would be just as playable, so why bother with something with a built in restriction?
But Reckless Abandon is 4 damage for 1 mana.
What I am looking for with this discussion is more about burn efficiency. I happily added Flames of the Firebrand after M13 and have run many other 3 CMC burn spells with success.
But after I remade my creature section to be much less dragony and picked up some great 2 drops in RTR I started to wonder how many lands I wanted to run in R/X aggro decks. Those decks were great but often ran out of steam with 17 lands.
Once you drop to 14-16 lands you have to ask yourself how many 3+ drops you need. I drafted a R/B aggro deck with 6 great one drops, and a bunch of decent 2 drops. But the burn that I was able to get..... 3 CMC. I did pretty well but often an early board wipe left me trying to dome them 2-3 damage a turn to finish them.
For most people their entire red section is devoted to the first 4-5 turns. Often meaning the never gettign past 3-4 lands. So I feel that efficency is crucially important. I want to be able to bolt their nighthawk they thought they would stabilze with, drop a hasty dude, and maybe torch them some more.
But you all make great point. I think Flame Javelin is not going in because with would just cause more burn to be pulled away from the red deck. My playgoup has a tendancy to value burn highly, especially the flexible ones, and will splash them in just about any deck.
After this discussion I thought it I would give it a try. Drafted a super fast boros deck with only Hellrider at 4 CMC . Played 14 lands (15 with evolving wilds).
Reckless abandon was solid almost all day, includng a turn 5 kill with hellrider and friends bringing them down to 4.
Probably an abberration as I forced the deck to check this out but it also had favorable interaction with Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, and Grim Lavamancer.
I've always loved Reckless Abandon ever since it saw play in old Extended. It's been in my on deck binder, but I'm always convinced by my playgroup not to run it. I am encouraged by your results. I could definitely see it edging out some random sorcery-speed burn spell.
The deck ended up really sick with Mirran Crusader, Silverblade Paladin, and Slayers Stronghold (Thank you board for convincing me on that one) so I had to be shy on my red sources. I am glad my only double red card was ash zealot. The Flame Javelin would not have made the cut in a mile.
Reckless Abandon just felt like great reach to me as I really played it and another weenie creature instead of another land and one of the 5 drops I drafted.
I used to have it in my cube but cut it. The sacrifice meant that it was almost exclusively used to deal the last points of damage, and it felt as if more flexible burn spells were better. Maybe it deserves another look, as there are a number of creatures that are heading for the graveyard anyway, or that you want to go into the yard.
RA is definitely a role player card, best in aggro, obviously. Whether or not you want your cube to have role-player cards is a designers choice. By including RA over a more flexible burn spell, you are ensuring that the aggro decks get access to this reach, where a more flexible burn spell is likely to be used as spot removal against aggro.
To take things in another direction: I'd be interested to see someone take a sharpie to this, make it an instant, and see what happens.
How about Vexing Devil in it's place? Different kind of condition.
I am growing to love reckless abandon for all the reasons I do not like vexing devil. There is just now way to draft a strait red leagacy burn style deck to make the devil useful.
4 damage is a lot but is only that great when you are capable of finishing someone off.
The devil is so unrealiable because it creates the absense of pressure. Abandon allows me to deploy my creature plan then sacrifice one of my creatures when then become irrelevent.
To me cube is giving yourself more options or taking options away from an opponent. Devil does neither.
I play Fling and I'm always happy with it, because it is instant-speed. I couldn't deal with not being able to cast this in response to removal and I'd be disappointed without the near-infinite high-end that Fling has.
It's a bigger Lava Spike. Lava Spike is not exactly good and that extra damage is not making the difference since you're not drafting a burn deck in cube. It's even worse than that; if your opponent happens to be able to deal with a 4/3, it doesn't do damage to your opponent at all. Looks good, isn't really good in practice.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
That's fine. I know this board is very down on Devil and the same critiques have come out over and over, though I wonder how much people have actually tested it. I played it yesterday on turn 1 and it was just fine, my opponent eventually conceded, specifically citing the 4 damage from the Devil. Obviously, I would play any 2/1 1-drops over it, but in some formats/cubes you simply don't have enough two-power 1-drops. I know that red aggro in my cube was struggling in Winston drafts, even though I had a very aggro build, until I started adding in a ton of one-drops like Waif, Stonewright, and Devil.
By the by, I played Stonewright again yesterday and it performed well once again.
In any case, both Devil and Abandon limit your options somewhat. Sure, Devil doesn't always do what you want but you can choose when to play it. If you have Abandon but no turn 1 play, that's far more suboptimal than playing Devil on turn 1.
Pro:
4 damage for 1 mana. Better rate than any card I am currently cubing. I love char and that costs R2 and does 2 damage to you.
Con:
Sacrifice a creature. I am not running any cards that make me do this for a reason. It is steep, but unlike goblin grenade I don't need to be tribal.
Pro:
Many cuber's red slices are getting super aggro but need a little more reach. They have lots of tiny guys, haste guys, echo guys, tokens, recursion guys etc. who are happy to be thrown at someone's face for 4 more damage.
Con:
Not an instant. As an instant I would play this any time. Something dying in combat or to a removal spell. Bang. But it is not.
No one is playing Fling and it is an instant and only costs 1 more, but I like that I can bomb one of my outclassed Jackal Pup or Shred-Freak to finish out a game.
Oh I wasn't considering it over char, but in addition becasue I want more 4 damage burn spells.;)
I was just looking at how many haste creatures I am now putting in red, many of which I hope to close out the game. But if hellrider or Thundermaw Hellkite dosen't get there how much mana do you have left over to burn them out? Esepcially with the geralf's messngers and such out there possibly doing more than 4.
Also if I am playing a hellspark elemental on turn two and unearthing on three, I have 1 man up for this. maybe a corner case, but one extra mana sitting around and wishing I had a lightning bolt happens a lot to me.
I currently am in need of a chain lighting and I might try this out in its spot until I trade for one.
Do you run flame javelin? That card is a 4 damage burn spell for 3 (4 outside of mono-red). I don't play that card but it kind of fits what you're saying. It's another 4 damage burn spell, and a way to close out games. It costs more, but will probably be played in the same "all in, heavy red" decks that would play reckless abandonment. It has some added bonuses.
1) it's an instant
2) it's a better top deck than reckless abandonment because it doesn't require a certain board state to be effective.
3) you can use it as a removal spell to clear the way for the little guys you would be sacrificing to reckless abandonment.
Flame Javelin is only kind of sort of a 3 mana spell. I would rather run violent eruption. And I have on and off. It departed recently due to the 3 red and flame javelin would stay out for the same reason.
It's not just big red that I see enjoying it in. Now that I have built up by aggro red I have seen more boros/weenie decks, as well as a big improvement in the Rakdos decks. Both of those really enjoy burn closeout cards.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I think it's quite a good card, with great synergies with Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, etc. And I do think the low casting cost is relevant. It's why Fireblast is such a great card. On four mana you can Reckless Abandon and Char or RA and Hell's Thunder. I probably wouldn't run it below 500 though.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Hu, strange... Looking at the card I'd assume it would be good to deal with their 4 drops that would normally just chump and eat your armies of 2/2s for 1. The result is kind of the same in that instance, as you'd lose the guy either way, but at least this way you're dealing with their blocker, choosing which guy dies on your side, and potentially getting in for more damage.
I have a 360 unpowered cube but I am still slowly acquiring the more expensive stuff and along the way I am trying out some lower profile choices that I happen to already have.
As I like to fiddle a lot with my mix I will probably try it for a while but I am guessing It wont stay. It has the spirit of a card that will be more favored in a deck I am trying to support more, but I have been generally moving to cards having more options than less.
But what circumstances where you curve out and slam Hellrider do you not win that Reckless Abandon will remedy? Having played Hellrider in Standard, I feel like I can confidently say that a good cube deck curving into Hellrider should probably be ending the game that turn.
If you haven't, you're probably winning next turn unless they kill all your creatures. At this point, any of your burn spells should do it, and you've got four whole mana to use. Reckless Abandon doesn't take advantage of you having no creatures or having four mana. Almost any X-Spell would be better at that stage of the game, or Flame Javelin, or Char.
My cube list on CubeTutor.
Both are very much under construction. Please stop by and talk about it!
This seems a bit overly optimistic. Opponents do stuff as well. They play Man o' War's, Wall of Roots, Tangle Wire, Mana Vault + Titan, gain life with Thragtusk or chump out tokens with PW. Curving out with Hellrider is far from a certain victory, unless your opponent doesn't do much.
Not that I don't agree with your main point. When you actually would want to cast Reckless Abandon, most of the time other burn would be just as playable, so why bother with something with a built in restriction?
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
But Reckless Abandon is 4 damage for 1 mana.
What I am looking for with this discussion is more about burn efficiency. I happily added Flames of the Firebrand after M13 and have run many other 3 CMC burn spells with success.
But after I remade my creature section to be much less dragony and picked up some great 2 drops in RTR I started to wonder how many lands I wanted to run in R/X aggro decks. Those decks were great but often ran out of steam with 17 lands.
Once you drop to 14-16 lands you have to ask yourself how many 3+ drops you need. I drafted a R/B aggro deck with 6 great one drops, and a bunch of decent 2 drops. But the burn that I was able to get..... 3 CMC. I did pretty well but often an early board wipe left me trying to dome them 2-3 damage a turn to finish them.
For most people their entire red section is devoted to the first 4-5 turns. Often meaning the never gettign past 3-4 lands. So I feel that efficency is crucially important. I want to be able to bolt their nighthawk they thought they would stabilze with, drop a hasty dude, and maybe torch them some more.
But you all make great point. I think Flame Javelin is not going in because with would just cause more burn to be pulled away from the red deck. My playgoup has a tendancy to value burn highly, especially the flexible ones, and will splash them in just about any deck.
Reckless abandon was solid almost all day, includng a turn 5 kill with hellrider and friends bringing them down to 4.
Probably an abberration as I forced the deck to check this out but it also had favorable interaction with Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, and Grim Lavamancer.
So it will stay for a while.
Joy of Cubing Podcast
My 600 Card Unpowered Cube
My Combo Cube
Reckless Abandon just felt like great reach to me as I really played it and another weenie creature instead of another land and one of the 5 drops I drafted.
RA is definitely a role player card, best in aggro, obviously. Whether or not you want your cube to have role-player cards is a designers choice. By including RA over a more flexible burn spell, you are ensuring that the aggro decks get access to this reach, where a more flexible burn spell is likely to be used as spot removal against aggro.
To take things in another direction: I'd be interested to see someone take a sharpie to this, make it an instant, and see what happens.
"I'm the Best!"
Toad, Mario Kart 64
I am growing to love reckless abandon for all the reasons I do not like vexing devil. There is just now way to draft a strait red leagacy burn style deck to make the devil useful.
4 damage is a lot but is only that great when you are capable of finishing someone off.
The devil is so unrealiable because it creates the absense of pressure. Abandon allows me to deploy my creature plan then sacrifice one of my creatures when then become irrelevent.
To me cube is giving yourself more options or taking options away from an opponent. Devil does neither.
450, Peasant*, unpowered**
Specialities about the cube:
U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
Currently trying to support tokens in all colors but blue, in different ways: W pumps them, B sacrifices them, R suicides them, G has decent-sized ones.
cube list outdated
*literal C/U definition according to gatherer
**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
By the by, I played Stonewright again yesterday and it performed well once again.
In any case, both Devil and Abandon limit your options somewhat. Sure, Devil doesn't always do what you want but you can choose when to play it. If you have Abandon but no turn 1 play, that's far more suboptimal than playing Devil on turn 1.