Kor Skyfisher is crazy good, beyond all the utility of bouncing your own stuff and reusing 187's if you support fast mana he is sick.
I had on game where I was on the play and droped Plains, Mana Crypt, Skyfisher floating 1 mana bounce crypt, replay crypt and go up to 3 mana cast Sword of War and Peace. Without a 1 casting cost removal spell by my opponet the game was over real fast.
You are talking about an ~ 10% chance - even less if you don't keep 1 land hands.
On the other hand, it is really not as good as finding your 3rd land.
Can you please show the math for it being only 10% that you miss your 3rd land? If you are playing 15 lands and have 2 in hand and only two draw phases with which to hit one (assuming playing first), that means that your deck is less than 50% lands:
40 cards minus 5 nonlands and 2 lands,
33 cards = 13 lands and 20 spells = 39% chance of drawing a land on your first draw, and 40% on the second draw (if you miss on the first).
The numbers change to 42% and 44% with 16 lands.
I didn't take statistics extensively (only one undergrad class), but that doesn't seem like 10%.
Can you please show the math for it being only 10% that you miss your 3rd land? If you are playing 15 lands and have 2 in hand and only two draw phases with which to hit one (assuming playing first), that means that your deck is less than 50% lands:
40 cards minus 5 nonlands and 2 lands,
33 cards = 13 lands and 20 spells = 39% chance of drawing a land on your first draw, and 40% on the second draw (if you miss on the first).
The numbers change to 42% and 44% with 16 lands.
I didn't take statistics extensively (only one undergrad class), but that doesn't seem like 10%.
-AA
The probability to miss the land drop in your 15 land scenario is the probability of drawing non-land turn 2 multiplied by drawing a non-land turn 3. 20/33 x 19/32 = 0.36 = 36%
Also in a deck that can play 15 lands often a one hand land is keepable. Especially if you don't begin. Sometimes you just have to go for it and hope your deck doesn't screw you over.
I was pretty sure my low land count aggro decks used Kor Skyfisher to reset a land with a missed land drop more than 10% of the time, but I don't like to argue numbers with eidolon. It's good to see that it's actually much higher than that.
So what I'm getting from this thread is that Skyfisher is more of a 3 drop than a 2 drop. It seems that is when you can mitigate it's drawback best. If you're looking to abuse etb effects, it's a 4+ drop. So where does this fall among the other three drops in white?
The 10% are the probability of having exactly 2 lands in 10 cards with no other restrictions.
That 10%, then, takes into account 0 land hands with 2 lands in the top 7, or 1 land hands that are unkeepable. While I don't doubt it's a valid number, I think one of the other numbers that only takes into account hands we're actually keeping is more relevant.
So what I'm getting from this thread is that Skyfisher is more of a 3 drop than a 2 drop.
I think of it as a 2-drop that holds value into the later stages of the game better than most 2-drops do. I wouldn't have it "compete" with 3-drops or 4-drops though, because that's not the role it plays.
The 10% are the probability of having exactly 2 lands in 10 cards with no other restrictions.
This may be mathemathically correct, but does not reflect real play scenarios (as mentioned by other posters above). All respect for your statistics skills, but I think this time you're not right.
Just chiming in on Skyfisher. I wouldn't run it outside of a cube with access to 0CC artifact mana. It was cut months ago for sucking up too much tempo.
I still like it in my powered cube, but it's not very high on the pick list, and is easily replaceable. It's insane with moxen though, but what card isn't
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It's not moxen that make Skyfisher good. They're certainly not a prerequisite for playing the creature in any deck we build.
They are in my list. There are so many other better aggro creatures available to play over Skyfisher. If I wanted to durdle around with a slower creature for its interactions with Blinkable creatures, I would just play actual Blink effects.
They are in my list. There are so many other better aggro creatures available to play over Skyfisher. If I wanted to durdle around with a slower creature for its interactions with Blinkable creatures, I would just play actual Blink effects.
But it's not just an aggro creature. The 2/3 flying body makes the creature relevant in a lot of other deck types. It can stunt attacking creatures from every other color if you need to play defensively, and it has 2-power and evasion if you want to attack with it. And it has all the merits of a blink/bounce support card (while giving you a body at the same time) and it has interactions with resetting lands when you miss your land drop, landfall triggers, Sarcomancy tokens and everything else that's been discussed.
Not every deck that has ETB effects wants a plain blink support card. But a lot of those decks are willing to play Skyfisher to get the cheap efficient body and be able to re-use certain ETB triggers when relevant to do so.
Let's bump this discussion. As etb creatures continue to be the cubes backbone, how has kor skyfisher stood the test of time (for powered or in-powered cubes)?
Kor skyfisher has been in our cube for a long time and always seems "good", but rarely insane. But also, rarely bad. So, versatile, as Mr wolf referenced here.
I have never played with it before but it recently made my list along with Quickling and the Megamorph cycle. Flipping a Morph and then returning it back with this isn't the worst. Or maybe it is, either way, if you can make the "downside" on this work well, you have ended up with a pretty efficient flier on the board and maybe another ETB trigger or trick or Snapcaster etc...
Let's bump this discussion. As etb creatures continue to be the cubes backbone, how has kor skyfisher stood the test of time (for powered or in-powered cubes)?
Kor skyfisher has been in our cube for a long time and always seems "good", but rarely insane. But also, rarely bad. So, versatile, as Mr wolf referenced here.
As the quality and quantity of ETB triggers increases, this guy just continues to age like wine. Still one of my favorite white 2-drops.
This card does so many things. Rebuy your etb effects, take off someone's pants and put it on another creature, or in a pinch use a walker's ability, cast the kor bouncing the walker and recast the walker (Hi Liliana of the Veil)! Filthy.
T1: Drop land, Mox, Skyfisher; return Mox; drop Mox; cast other 1-drop. Awesome.
This.
And I think that is the key right there. This card plays really nicely in powered cubes. If you run moxen, run this card - it's great value for the cost, splash-able, and combo-tastic with fast mana. When I ran a semi-powered list, I had this card in there and it was great. It is also randomly useful with ETB effects or to reset some permanents, but that is more a grindy midrange effect and it is not really applicable during the first few turns of the game (so is not a 2 drop in those circumstances IMO).
When we went back to unpowered though, this card underperformed. Even though my environment is heavily midrange where you'd think this type of card would shine, it just didn't do enough most of the time. Part of that I think is simply the fact that you can get the benefit of this type of effect much more easily and efficiently using other blink cards (Flickerwisp comes to mind, as does Restoration Angel for reusing creature ETB effects). Both cards also come with comparable/better bodies and cost you less for the effect.
It's hard for me to restate a lot of things that wtwlf has said, but there's just so many good interactions with this card that provide value. Any time you'll miss a land drop, just play skyfisher!
The spot where this card sees the most play in my list is in UW tempo/control or RW burn. Anything with cheap, interactive spells to hold up after casting it. Mana Tithe is a personal favorite to play alongside Skyfisher. Picking up a Parallax Wave or a Tangle Wire before they expire is great also.
I just love cards like this that provide a reasonable body with some value.
Ya. They're terrible in the cube.
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I had on game where I was on the play and droped Plains, Mana Crypt, Skyfisher floating 1 mana bounce crypt, replay crypt and go up to 3 mana cast Sword of War and Peace. Without a 1 casting cost removal spell by my opponet the game was over real fast.
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Can you please show the math for it being only 10% that you miss your 3rd land? If you are playing 15 lands and have 2 in hand and only two draw phases with which to hit one (assuming playing first), that means that your deck is less than 50% lands:
40 cards minus 5 nonlands and 2 lands,
33 cards = 13 lands and 20 spells = 39% chance of drawing a land on your first draw, and 40% on the second draw (if you miss on the first).
The numbers change to 42% and 44% with 16 lands.
I didn't take statistics extensively (only one undergrad class), but that doesn't seem like 10%.
-AA
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The probability to miss the land drop in your 15 land scenario is the probability of drawing non-land turn 2 multiplied by drawing a non-land turn 3. 20/33 x 19/32 = 0.36 = 36%
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That 10%, then, takes into account 0 land hands with 2 lands in the top 7, or 1 land hands that are unkeepable. While I don't doubt it's a valid number, I think one of the other numbers that only takes into account hands we're actually keeping is more relevant.
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I think of it as a 2-drop that holds value into the later stages of the game better than most 2-drops do. I wouldn't have it "compete" with 3-drops or 4-drops though, because that's not the role it plays.
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This is only correct if you are on the draw. On the play it is 36%. AA posted a scenario where he is on the play, not on the draw.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/mtgo-pauper/developing/647850-primer-angler-delver
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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This may be mathemathically correct, but does not reflect real play scenarios (as mentioned by other posters above). All respect for your statistics skills, but I think this time you're not right.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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In one out of ten games KS can bounce your land as a bonus (since the land drop was missed) instead of a drawback.
In one out of three games with two lands in the starting hand otp, KS can bounce your land as a bonus.
In one out of five games with two lands in the starting hand otd, KS can bounce your land as a bonus.
And that is only one of the minor interaction this card has. Its place in my cube is now set into stone.
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/773885-sultai-deaths-shadow-bug-aggro]
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But it's not just an aggro creature. The 2/3 flying body makes the creature relevant in a lot of other deck types. It can stunt attacking creatures from every other color if you need to play defensively, and it has 2-power and evasion if you want to attack with it. And it has all the merits of a blink/bounce support card (while giving you a body at the same time) and it has interactions with resetting lands when you miss your land drop, landfall triggers, Sarcomancy tokens and everything else that's been discussed.
Not every deck that has ETB effects wants a plain blink support card. But a lot of those decks are willing to play Skyfisher to get the cheap efficient body and be able to re-use certain ETB triggers when relevant to do so.
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Kor skyfisher has been in our cube for a long time and always seems "good", but rarely insane. But also, rarely bad. So, versatile, as Mr wolf referenced here.
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As the quality and quantity of ETB triggers increases, this guy just continues to age like wine. Still one of my favorite white 2-drops.
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This.
And I think that is the key right there. This card plays really nicely in powered cubes. If you run moxen, run this card - it's great value for the cost, splash-able, and combo-tastic with fast mana. When I ran a semi-powered list, I had this card in there and it was great. It is also randomly useful with ETB effects or to reset some permanents, but that is more a grindy midrange effect and it is not really applicable during the first few turns of the game (so is not a 2 drop in those circumstances IMO).
When we went back to unpowered though, this card underperformed. Even though my environment is heavily midrange where you'd think this type of card would shine, it just didn't do enough most of the time. Part of that I think is simply the fact that you can get the benefit of this type of effect much more easily and efficiently using other blink cards (Flickerwisp comes to mind, as does Restoration Angel for reusing creature ETB effects). Both cards also come with comparable/better bodies and cost you less for the effect.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
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It's hard for me to restate a lot of things that wtwlf has said, but there's just so many good interactions with this card that provide value. Any time you'll miss a land drop, just play skyfisher!
The spot where this card sees the most play in my list is in UW tempo/control or RW burn. Anything with cheap, interactive spells to hold up after casting it. Mana Tithe is a personal favorite to play alongside Skyfisher. Picking up a Parallax Wave or a Tangle Wire before they expire is great also.
I just love cards like this that provide a reasonable body with some value.
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