I like Capsize more. A lot more. I can target lands with it, I can target my own cards with it, and I can actually lock my opponent's best late-game threat off the board with it.
I like this card partially because I love the Wildfire deck. Cyclonic Rift plays well with the "drop something fat than cast a big spell to sweep the opposing board" plan. Sure, he can recast all the stuff, but the board state has swung drastically in your favor. Both modes being splashable is a huge boon.
I think people are vastly overrating it's overload. The way this plays out, it's essentially an overcosted Sleep with a bad Unsummon as an alternate mode. It's great in a board stall, but it's really not going to turn around a game the way Upheaval or even a wrath would. It's a tempo card - one that only UG ramp decks can really afford to cast.
I think people are vastly overrating it's overload. The way this plays out, it's essentially an overcosted Sleep with a bad Unsummon as an alternate mode. It's great as a board stall, but it's really not going to turn around a game the way Upheaval or even a wrath would. It's a tempo card - one that only UG ramp decks can really afford to cast.
Except it also hits non-creature permanents, doesn't require you to tap mana on your own turn and forces your opponent to recast all their spells which could take multiple turns. Also it's not bad Unsummon, its Disperse (mostly) which has proven to be cubeable if you attach some kicker-esque upside to it.
A card being worse than Upheaval is not a good enough argument to say the card sucks. I could see it struggling to find a place in a 360 list even if testing bears it to be good though.
TLDR: Your analogies are bad and you should feel bad
As an aside, regarding Capsize, when was the last time anyone here has Capsize-locked someone? I feel like its been FOREVER in my Cube. With Cubes getting faster, are Capsize's days numbered?
As an aside, regarding Capsize, when was the last time anyone here has Capsize-locked someone? I feel like its been FOREVER in my Cube. With Cubes getting faster, are Capsize's days numbered?
I cut Capsize a while ago from my cube for just being too slow.
I did Capsize-lock someone in someone else's cube, but it's slower than early Black Sabbath drenched in molasses.
I pulled off a Capsize Lock a couple of weeks ago. I only had to cast it twice before I killed them with my win-con though, so it wasn't as much as "lock" as it was simply Capsize being good.
As an aside, regarding Capsize, when was the last time anyone here has Capsize-locked someone? I feel like its been FOREVER in my Cube. With Cubes getting faster, are Capsize's days numbered?
I consider it cuttable, because it is intensely slow. Right now, I have it in a 'control/ramp spell' slot, with the understanding that it sometimes pulls double-duty as a substantially suboptimal aggro card.
In my experience, it is far and away best in ramp, or control mirrors, which are the only places where I've seen it truly get rolling in my cube. For instance, it is a bit too slow in a control versus aggro or even control versus midrange matchup in my cube.
Relevant to this discussion, I'm not sure whether this new card can take its slot. Hitting lands is relevant in the situations where Capsize gets rolling. That said, I usually break on even decisions in favor of cards which can serve more roles. I think the overload version is pretty sweet at seven mana, and the base version is also better than Capsize when the card is serving as a less-than-optimal tempo card.
I was on the fence about this one, but I just talked myself into testing it over Capsize. Cube is going to fall out of favor at my office for a while after RtR comes out, so I won't be able to report back with substantial findings until most of the forums reach consensus though.
Being able to pull off something like a Capsize lock is one of the reasons I still play Mirari's Wake. It doesn't happen often, but it's nice to have egregious amounts of mana occasionally available in cube.
Except it also hits non-creature permanents, doesn't require you to tap mana on your own turn and forces your opponent to recast all their spells which could take multiple turns. Also it's not bad Unsummon, its Disperse (mostly) which has proven to be cubeable if you attach some kicker-esque upside to it.
A card being worse than Upheaval is not a good enough argument to say the card sucks. I could see it struggling to find a place in a 360 list even if testing bears it to be good though.
TLDR: Your analogies are bad and you should feel bad
As an aside, regarding Capsize, when was the last time anyone here has Capsize-locked someone? I feel like its been FOREVER in my Cube. With Cubes getting faster, are Capsize's days numbered?
Eh, I made the comparison to Upheaval because everyone else was. : \ That said, I don't think the card's terrible. It's fine - a 2-mana permanent bounce spell with some upside is definitely cubeable, as you've said. I just don't think that it's overload is as insanely powerful as everyone thinks it is. The only time the overload is going to be genuinely awesome is if it's cast during a board stall or if it's powered out early by a ramp deck. Otherwise, you're probably spending seven mana to bounce between five and twelve mana's worth of stuff. You'll get a hit in with your guys, they'll replay their dudes, and you're back to where you were. That's good, but certainly not amazing.
I'd rather have the ability to hit my permanents and have the spell cantrip to maintain card parity with a tempo advantage. I like Into the Roil and Repulse better, and most small to medium sized cubes don't even have room for both of those spells as it is. The Overload spell is powerful, of course, but 7 mana is a lot.
I'm not a huge fan, the overload is nice, but decks that can take advantage of it (control, ramp) just generally have other things they'd rather be doing at seven mana. And the decks that would take advantage of the 7 mana version two mana side (tempo) really really don't want the game to stall out to the point where they have seven mana in the first place.
I'd much rather run Capsize as a big mana bounce spell because it does what control decks want, this not so much.
the overload is nice, but decks that can take advantage of it (control, ramp) just generally have other things they'd rather be doing at seven mana.
Like what? This IS the thing I want to be doing on turn 7. Being the only one with permanents is probably going to end well. I'm not going to be running it at 320 but I'm a fan. One fairly costed mode and one aggressive mode makes for a pretty fine cube card. I don't know what size I would run it at, yet.
Like what? This IS the thing I want to be doing on turn 7. Being the only one with permanents is probably going to end well.
I'd rather drop Karn, or Myr Battlesphere, or Elesh Norn, or something smaller and leave up counter magic to protect it. Also actual Upheaval if I can afford to wait and float a bit more mana but that's not guaranteed to be a better play.
My thought process is yes getting all of their stuff out of play is good but the fact that they can replay a decent chunk of it (odds are they have at least 5 mana at this stage of the game) yes it is a huge tempo swing, but your deck is the deck being a control deck probably isn't the best positioned to take advantage of that swing.
It is a very powerful effect but there are lot's of those in the cube.
I'm pretty excited about this card. Gives you the good early game option and gives you a game ending late game option. The best part is the instant speed bounce their board.
the more i think about this card the more i think it's too good to exclude. i think i'm going to cut confiscate for it. i want more cheap bounce in blue and the overload mode is just insane.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
It did well when I tested it (when it was spoiled) and was impressed by its flexibility in modes, sometimes it bounces an annoying permanent like a Wurmcoil Engine and sometimes you can hold out for 7 mana (and it's usually quite devastating when it hits.) Sometimes it just puts the opponent back for a bit while their board is bounced and they have to re-deploy the threats, but it's still solid even in that bad case. There is a danger with the card of being too scared to cast it early or wait too long for the overload cost, but it's something you eventually learn how to manage.
I'm making changes for the preliminary changes and it's going to make it in, but blue's really tight.
Disperse effects with an additional upside you could choose to use are great, and this one's Overload is just a blow out. We initially dismissed Devastation Tide until we actually used it and that thing is great, even with it bouncing your own board. Any game that involved a miracle'd D. Tide was an absolute beating..almost as bad a Bonfire being miracle'd..no joke.
It did well when I tested it (when it was spoiled) and was impressed by its flexibility in modes, sometimes it bounces an annoying permanent like a Wurmcoil Engine and sometimes you can hold out for 7 mana (and it's usually quite devastating when it hits.) Sometimes it just puts the opponent back for a bit while their board is bounced and they have to re-deploy the threats, but it's still solid even in that bad case. There is a danger with the card of being too scared to cast it early or wait too long for the overload cost, but it's something you eventually learn how to manage.
I'm making changes for the preliminary changes and it's going to make it in, but blue's really tight.
Now that you vouched for the card I bet all the naysayers will suddenly say "oh, I thought it was really good from the start durr."
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
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I meant that the first "side" of the spell is overcosted, just as Capsize is.
I think this is a solid comparison.
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We really need an overpowered bounce spell besides Man-O-War or Venser.
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I thought I had no place to try it, but Capsize looks like the perfect cut. Thanks!
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It doubles as a way to stabilize early and as a way to win the game late. Flexible cards are awesome.
+1 from me. I'm kind of amazed at the "meh, not really cubeworthy" response the card got here.
Except it also hits non-creature permanents, doesn't require you to tap mana on your own turn and forces your opponent to recast all their spells which could take multiple turns. Also it's not bad Unsummon, its Disperse (mostly) which has proven to be cubeable if you attach some kicker-esque upside to it.
A card being worse than Upheaval is not a good enough argument to say the card sucks. I could see it struggling to find a place in a 360 list even if testing bears it to be good though.
TLDR: Your analogies are bad and you should feel bad
As an aside, regarding Capsize, when was the last time anyone here has Capsize-locked someone? I feel like its been FOREVER in my Cube. With Cubes getting faster, are Capsize's days numbered?
I cut Capsize a while ago from my cube for just being too slow.
I did Capsize-lock someone in someone else's cube, but it's slower than early Black Sabbath drenched in molasses.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
It's slow, but when it's good, it's real good.
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I consider it cuttable, because it is intensely slow. Right now, I have it in a 'control/ramp spell' slot, with the understanding that it sometimes pulls double-duty as a substantially suboptimal aggro card.
In my experience, it is far and away best in ramp, or control mirrors, which are the only places where I've seen it truly get rolling in my cube. For instance, it is a bit too slow in a control versus aggro or even control versus midrange matchup in my cube.
Relevant to this discussion, I'm not sure whether this new card can take its slot. Hitting lands is relevant in the situations where Capsize gets rolling. That said, I usually break on even decisions in favor of cards which can serve more roles. I think the overload version is pretty sweet at seven mana, and the base version is also better than Capsize when the card is serving as a less-than-optimal tempo card.
I was on the fence about this one, but I just talked myself into testing it over Capsize. Cube is going to fall out of favor at my office for a while after RtR comes out, so I won't be able to report back with substantial findings until most of the forums reach consensus though.
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Eh, I made the comparison to Upheaval because everyone else was. : \ That said, I don't think the card's terrible. It's fine - a 2-mana permanent bounce spell with some upside is definitely cubeable, as you've said. I just don't think that it's overload is as insanely powerful as everyone thinks it is. The only time the overload is going to be genuinely awesome is if it's cast during a board stall or if it's powered out early by a ramp deck. Otherwise, you're probably spending seven mana to bounce between five and twelve mana's worth of stuff. You'll get a hit in with your guys, they'll replay their dudes, and you're back to where you were. That's good, but certainly not amazing.
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You mean Repeal, right?
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Yes. That is what I mean.
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I'd much rather run Capsize as a big mana bounce spell because it does what control decks want, this not so much.
Like what? This IS the thing I want to be doing on turn 7. Being the only one with permanents is probably going to end well. I'm not going to be running it at 320 but I'm a fan. One fairly costed mode and one aggressive mode makes for a pretty fine cube card. I don't know what size I would run it at, yet.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I'd rather drop Karn, or Myr Battlesphere, or Elesh Norn, or something smaller and leave up counter magic to protect it. Also actual Upheaval if I can afford to wait and float a bit more mana but that's not guaranteed to be a better play.
My thought process is yes getting all of their stuff out of play is good but the fact that they can replay a decent chunk of it (odds are they have at least 5 mana at this stage of the game) yes it is a huge tempo swing, but your deck is the deck being a control deck probably isn't the best positioned to take advantage of that swing.
It is a very powerful effect but there are lot's of those in the cube.
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I'm making changes for the preliminary changes and it's going to make it in, but blue's really tight.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Disperse effects with an additional upside you could choose to use are great, and this one's Overload is just a blow out. We initially dismissed Devastation Tide until we actually used it and that thing is great, even with it bouncing your own board. Any game that involved a miracle'd D. Tide was an absolute beating..almost as bad a Bonfire being miracle'd..no joke.
Now that you vouched for the card I bet all the naysayers will suddenly say "oh, I thought it was really good from the start durr."