I've also cut cards for basic lands before. But the point of the Chrome is that it's easier to include because it can replace a basic in your list. But that is lost with the fact that the card you discard to imprint on it is not a basic land, so you still ultimately lose the land slot you cut and a spell slot that you didn't.
Discarding the basic land to the Diamond is the easy part. Just like cutting the basic for the Chrome is the easy part.
In your typical aggro deck, I often times get too many hands with Spell x4, Land x2, Diamond for my liking. You could argue that the same deck the other way would look like Spell x5, Land, Chrome - except in practice it doesn't work out that way since the ratio of lands and spells in your deck is lopsided, not even. You're more likely to draw extra spells than extra lands, making a first turn Chrome less risky.
In a midrange or control deck I'm more inclined to play the Diamond.
My 2c.
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Chrome Mox is a card that really depends on your environment.
If your cube uses the original Moxen it might look rather silly. And if your cube is loaded with fast mana it looks pretty underwhelming in comparison.
In an unpowered environment without fast mana it starts to look attractive. Using two cards to go one mana up and play your two drop or two one drops on turn one is worthwhile when you know that you're still a couple of turns away from a wrath or a ramped beast.
Then it's also silly to say that Chrome Mox is better because it replaces a basic, right?
It's silly to say it's better than Mox Diamond because it replaces a land and Mox Diamond doesn't.
Quote from wtwlf »
If all cards are equally important/good, than why is it advantageous to include Chrome over a Basic but not Diamond over a Spell?
All cards aren't equally good and it is advantageous to replace a spell with Mox Diamond if it makes your deck better because, well, it makes your deck better. Is it going to improve your deck as much as swapping a basic for Chrome Mox? Probably but not always and it really depends on how the draft is going.
All cards aren't equally good and it is advantageous to replace a spell with Mox Diamond if it makes your deck better because, well, it makes your deck better. Is it going to improve your deck as much as swapping a basic for Chrome Mox? Probably but not always and it really depends on how the draft is going.
Agreed again. I think the spell/land upgrades to either Mox are pretty comparable. Both of them should increase the quality of the deck. Because of the slots they replace during deckbuilding combined with the slots you lose when cast, the effect they have on the overall deck should be pretty similar.
..........
I want to clarify that this debate makes it sound like I hate Chrome Mox or something. That's not the case at all. I like Chrome Mox a lot. I just like the advantages of Mox Diamond more than the advantages of Chrome Mox for the cube. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that knows me on these forums; I'm a Mox Diamond superfan. So I don't dislike Chrome, I just prefer Diamond. Just wanted to clarify that.
What I'm missing, then, is why there's some reason we need to declare Mox Diamond better than Chrome Mox. As far as I'm concerned, they're both good ramp spells that go in different decks, that rarely go in the same deck, and they both have their pluses and minuses depending on how you like to play and how your cube is built. I think if you run one, you should run both, because if you want to give fast mana to some decks it should be available to everyone, but other than that I don't see what the issue is.
I like Chrome Mox. I like Mox Diamond. Both have drawbacks. Both are great in some decks. Both suck in some decks. Can we just say play them if you like fast mana, and exclude them if you don't, and stop trying to figure out which is better?
What I'm missing, then, is why there's some reason we need to declare Mox Diamond better than Chrome Mox.
Because this is the cube forum, and we make a hobby out of comparing and ranking Magic cards.
I like both cards, but I think there's a significant power-level difference between them. The significance of that difference is what spurred a 3-page debate of one vs the other.
You're just as guilty of this phenomenon as everybody else is. Myself certainly included. It's what we do!
I think it's pretty obvious that if you deck has a balanced land to spell ratio (17:23) or has a higher land to spell ratio (18+/22-) mox diamond is clearly better. However in aggro chrome mox is better. If I am playing 15-16 lands I am not going to run mox diamond because a hand with one land and a diamond is an auto mull, which is not the case with a chrome mox. Also in aggro it is important to have a high number of low cost aggressive spells/creatures which the diamond is not. My verdict is in an aggro deck I would rather run 14-15 land and chrome mox than 16-17 lands mox diamond.
If I am playing 15-16 lands I am not going to run mox diamond because a hand with one land and a diamond is an auto mull, which is not the case with a chrome mox.
Diamond takes a spell slot, Chrome takes a land slot. So, any hand where I'd have 1 lands + Diamond, I'd have 0 lands + Chrome, so I'd have to mulligan anyways. You don't ever have more (or less) overall mana sources with one Mox or the other.
I agree that Chrome Mox can be situationally better in an aggro deck, but not for that reason.
I like both cards, but I think there's a significant power-level difference between them. The significance of that difference is what spurred a 3-page debate of one vs the other.
Would you ever build a cube that only had Diamond and not Chrome? Because otherwise I don't see what the purpose of ranking them is.
I get having a debate about whether Molten-Tail Masticore is better than Razormane Masticore, because some people will cube with one, some with the other, some with none, and some with both. I don't get the Chrome vs Diamond debate, because I can't figure out which cubes would want only Diamond, even if it were a better card.
Yes. I played Diamond and not Chrome at 360, and I'd probably cut it if I ever went down under 450. Especially in a powered list.
I can't speak for powered, and that may be where it falls apart. In an unpowered list, it seems particularly anti-aggro to include the mox that helps midrange but not include the mox that helps aggro. In a powered list aggro has access to 5 more moxen, which I'd imagine would be a pretty big boon and the loss of chrome would hurt more.
In an unpowered list, it seems particularly anti-aggro to include the mox that helps midrange but not include the mox that helps aggro.
Two things:
First, in an unpowered cube, I'd play both at all sizes. In a powered cube, Diamond's fixing is still super relevant, and absolutely worth it, even at 360. I haven't had the same experience with Chrome. So I agree with you there.
Second, even in aggro, I prefer Diamond. The early game fixing is just too good. I like Diamond more in every deck.
Second, even in aggro, I prefer Diamond. The early game fixing is just too good. I like Diamond more in every deck.
This I don't understand. I'd almost never play Diamond in a 16 land aggro deck. It's too unreliable. I'd play Chrome 100% of the time in a 15 land aggro deck.
I adjusted the numbers on the lands to reflect Diamond taking a spell slot and chrome taking a land slot. I think I got the numbers right but if i juxtaposed them pretend I got it right. Watching sports and thinking at the same time, which is not always a recipe for precise thinking.
I would play both 100% of the time in whatever land-count aggro I was running. I mulligan 1-land hands, and keep 2-landers every time. Neither Mox grants me more or less overall mana sources in my opening hand, so it doesn't matter what my land count is.
My starting hand is either 4 spells, a Diamond and 2 lands, or 5 spells, a Chrome and 1 land. Either way, I have 4 gas spells and 2 mana sources after I cast the Mox on T1. I simply get better fixing from the Diamond.
My starting hand is either 4 spells, a Diamond and 2 lands, or 5 spells, a Chrome and 1 land. Either way, I have 4 gas spells and 2 mana sources after I cast the Mox on T1. I simply get better fixing from the Diamond.
If you always get 2 cards you use "land slots" on and 5 cards you use "spell slots" on, then this is the case. The problem is, you don't always do that. And since in either configuration you're more likely to draw more spells slots than land slots, Chrome is more likely to end up in playable hands than diamond is.
I don't think I'm articulating this well, so I'm going to give it another try. Let's assume we're talking about a 16 land slot aggro deck. I've either got 23 spells, 1 mox diamond, and 16 lands, or 24 spells, 1 chrome mox, and 15 lands. If I have a hand that has the mox in question, and then a random 6 cards from the rest of the deck, I am more likely to have a card to imprint on chrome mox than I am to have a land to discard to diamond, solely because there are more cards in the remaining mix that could be imprinted on the chrome than there are lands that could be pitched to the diamond.
In that deck, Chrome is going to provide me with more keepable hands than Diamond is. I can keep a hand with Chrome and 1 land, I can't keep a hand with Diamond and 1 land. And even though they're taking different slots during deck construction, I'm still going to draw hands like that. I'm statistically more likely to draw hands that are spell heavy where chrome is good than I am to draw hands that are land heavy where diamond is good.
Conversely, if you assume I'm not going to draw either mox in a game (let's say it's sitting on the bottom of the library and I have 0 shuffle effects), my aggro deck is happier to have 1 fewer land and 1 more spell to play.
There are some decks (mono color aggro specifically), where this kind of explosive mana is so important and hard to come by, even if it costs you a card. For instance, in mono-white:
This is obviously a perfect draw, but is facilitated by Chrome Mox (Mox Diamond works here too, but redundancy never killed anyone).
I also Prefer Chrome Mox in aggro decks where the fixing is less important (mono colored as above). I find that Diamond is a good bump for the first turn or two, but then you end up running out of lands and can't cast your expensive spell. I find this happening a little less with Chrome, mostly because I can just use my late game spell as the Chrome fodder.
My starting hand is either 4 spells, a Diamond and 2 lands, or 5 spells, a Chrome and 1 land. Either way, I have 4 gas spells and 2 mana sources after I cast the Mox on T1. I simply get better fixing from the Diamond.
That's what I'm saying. In a vacuum I'd rather have that ^ Diamond hand. But statistically speaking, that particular hand with diamond is less likely to occur than that other hand with chrome, since the ratio of lands and spells in your deck isn't equal. You have more spells, and therefore the chance that a T1 mox of either kind being a miss is reduced. You can't just discount that.
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Only because the L+M are equivalent to S+C does not mean that you are always drawing them in this exact combination.
I'm aware of this. But neither Mox makes you more or less likely to have more or less mana sources in your opening hand.
You can do it with any hypothetical:
4 spells and 3 lands is a keeper. If I was running Diamond in the deck AND it's in my opening hand, it looks like 3 spells, Diamond and 3 lands instead. If I was running Chrome in the deck, AND it's in my opening hand, it looks like 4 spells, Chrome and 2 lands instead. In either situation, I have 3 gas spells and three mana sources after the Mox is played.
5 spells and 2 lands is also a keeper. And just like above, I have the same Spell/Mana Source ratio after either Mox is played.
A 6 spell and 1 land hand requires a mulligan. Because Chrome Mox takes up a land slot during construction, A 6/1 hand still isn't a keeper, because if Chrome Mox IS in your opener, it's in the "1" slot, not one of the 6's. Same with the Diamond. Even though the Diamond is one of the "6" slots, I still only have one total mana source.
Because of how their classified during construction, the only safe assumption is to design a spell/land ratio that you might draw. If you wanna see what the hand would hypothetically look like with one of the Moxen, you replace the slot the mox competes for to see. For example, like above, a 4 spell 3 land hand would randomly replace one of the spell slots for a Diamond, and look like this: S, S, S, Diamond, L, L, L. And if you randomly replaced one of the land slots (the card type you cut to include the Chrome) with a Chrome Mox in that opener, it would look like: S, S, S, S, Chrome, L, L. After you cast the Mox on T1, BOTH hands look like S, S, S, L with Mox + L in play.
Quote from JeffDereck »
If I have a hand that has the mox in question, and then a random 6 cards from the rest of the deck...
It doesn't work that way. Set up any potential 7 card opening hand. Design a randomized spell/land balance. If Chrome is in that hypothetical opening hand, it takes up one of the land slots. If Diamond is in that hypothetical opening hand, it takes up one of the spell slots. In either case, the overall spell/land ratio is always the same after the Mox is cast. You can't start with the assumption that you'll draw one of the two moxen at random, because they don't compete for the same spot during deck construction.
It's easier to say that Chrome is better when you replace the Chrome in your hand with a Diamond and show how different it would look. But in practice, it doesn't worth that way because if you remove Chrome from your potential opening hand, you don't draw Diamond instead. You draw the land it replaced instead. It takes up a Land Slot. Diamond takes up a Spell Slot. You can't just interchange the two cards in your hypothetical opener.
Quote from Darklich528 »
That's what I'm saying. In a vacuum I'd rather have that ^ Diamond hand. But statistically speaking, that particular hand with diamond is less likely to occur than that other hand with chrome, since the ratio of lands and spells in your deck isn't equal. You have more spells, and therefore the chance that a T1 mox of either kind being a miss is reduced. You can't just discount that.
Hopefully this entire post clarifies why you can.
People want to exchange opening hands with a Chrome for identical opening hands with a Diamond. It doesn't work that way. In ANY case where you'd have a Diamond in your opening hand, it takes up one of your spell slots. In any case where you have a Chrome in your opening hand, it takes up one of your land slots.
So design any hypothetical opening hand by using X number of spells and Y number of lands, and then replace one of the X's with a Diamond or one of the Y's with a Chrome. In every example, the Spell/Land balance is identical no matter which Mox is played on T1.
Land is good enough to make a cube deck too.
Are you comparing the power level of one of your final 23 cards to the power level of a basic land?
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Discarding the basic land to the Diamond is the easy part. Just like cutting the basic for the Chrome is the easy part.
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Of course, they all make my final 40. It's silly to say lands are worth less than spells when you require both.
In your typical aggro deck, I often times get too many hands with Spell x4, Land x2, Diamond for my liking. You could argue that the same deck the other way would look like Spell x5, Land, Chrome - except in practice it doesn't work out that way since the ratio of lands and spells in your deck is lopsided, not even. You're more likely to draw extra spells than extra lands, making a first turn Chrome less risky.
In a midrange or control deck I'm more inclined to play the Diamond.
My 2c.
Then it's also silly to say that Chrome Mox is better because it replaces a basic, right?
If all cards are equally important/good, than why is it advantageous to include Chrome over a Basic but not Diamond over a Spell?
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If your cube uses the original Moxen it might look rather silly. And if your cube is loaded with fast mana it looks pretty underwhelming in comparison.
In an unpowered environment without fast mana it starts to look attractive. Using two cards to go one mana up and play your two drop or two one drops on turn one is worthwhile when you know that you're still a couple of turns away from a wrath or a ramped beast.
Someone please explain this to me
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Sometimes your mana is too greedy to replace a basic with a colorless Mox. It's rare, but it can happen.
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It's silly to say it's better than Mox Diamond because it replaces a land and Mox Diamond doesn't.
All cards aren't equally good and it is advantageous to replace a spell with Mox Diamond if it makes your deck better because, well, it makes your deck better. Is it going to improve your deck as much as swapping a basic for Chrome Mox? Probably but not always and it really depends on how the draft is going.
Cool. Agreed. Just makin' sure.
Agreed again. I think the spell/land upgrades to either Mox are pretty comparable. Both of them should increase the quality of the deck. Because of the slots they replace during deckbuilding combined with the slots you lose when cast, the effect they have on the overall deck should be pretty similar.
..........
I want to clarify that this debate makes it sound like I hate Chrome Mox or something. That's not the case at all. I like Chrome Mox a lot. I just like the advantages of Mox Diamond more than the advantages of Chrome Mox for the cube. And that shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that knows me on these forums; I'm a Mox Diamond superfan. So I don't dislike Chrome, I just prefer Diamond. Just wanted to clarify that.
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I like Chrome Mox. I like Mox Diamond. Both have drawbacks. Both are great in some decks. Both suck in some decks. Can we just say play them if you like fast mana, and exclude them if you don't, and stop trying to figure out which is better?
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Because this is the cube forum, and we make a hobby out of comparing and ranking Magic cards.
I like both cards, but I think there's a significant power-level difference between them. The significance of that difference is what spurred a 3-page debate of one vs the other.
You're just as guilty of this phenomenon as everybody else is. Myself certainly included. It's what we do!
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Diamond takes a spell slot, Chrome takes a land slot. So, any hand where I'd have 1 lands + Diamond, I'd have 0 lands + Chrome, so I'd have to mulligan anyways. You don't ever have more (or less) overall mana sources with one Mox or the other.
I agree that Chrome Mox can be situationally better in an aggro deck, but not for that reason.
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Would you ever build a cube that only had Diamond and not Chrome? Because otherwise I don't see what the purpose of ranking them is.
I get having a debate about whether Molten-Tail Masticore is better than Razormane Masticore, because some people will cube with one, some with the other, some with none, and some with both. I don't get the Chrome vs Diamond debate, because I can't figure out which cubes would want only Diamond, even if it were a better card.
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Yes. I played Diamond and not Chrome at 360, and I'd probably cut it if I ever went down under 450. Especially in a powered list.
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I can't speak for powered, and that may be where it falls apart. In an unpowered list, it seems particularly anti-aggro to include the mox that helps midrange but not include the mox that helps aggro. In a powered list aggro has access to 5 more moxen, which I'd imagine would be a pretty big boon and the loss of chrome would hurt more.
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Two things:
First, in an unpowered cube, I'd play both at all sizes. In a powered cube, Diamond's fixing is still super relevant, and absolutely worth it, even at 360. I haven't had the same experience with Chrome. So I agree with you there.
Second, even in aggro, I prefer Diamond. The early game fixing is just too good. I like Diamond more in every deck.
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This I don't understand. I'd almost never play Diamond in a 16 land aggro deck. It's too unreliable. I'd play Chrome 100% of the time in a 15 land aggro deck.
I adjusted the numbers on the lands to reflect Diamond taking a spell slot and chrome taking a land slot. I think I got the numbers right but if i juxtaposed them pretend I got it right. Watching sports and thinking at the same time, which is not always a recipe for precise thinking.
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My starting hand is either 4 spells, a Diamond and 2 lands, or 5 spells, a Chrome and 1 land. Either way, I have 4 gas spells and 2 mana sources after I cast the Mox on T1. I simply get better fixing from the Diamond.
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If you always get 2 cards you use "land slots" on and 5 cards you use "spell slots" on, then this is the case. The problem is, you don't always do that. And since in either configuration you're more likely to draw more spells slots than land slots, Chrome is more likely to end up in playable hands than diamond is.
I don't think I'm articulating this well, so I'm going to give it another try. Let's assume we're talking about a 16 land slot aggro deck. I've either got 23 spells, 1 mox diamond, and 16 lands, or 24 spells, 1 chrome mox, and 15 lands. If I have a hand that has the mox in question, and then a random 6 cards from the rest of the deck, I am more likely to have a card to imprint on chrome mox than I am to have a land to discard to diamond, solely because there are more cards in the remaining mix that could be imprinted on the chrome than there are lands that could be pitched to the diamond.
In that deck, Chrome is going to provide me with more keepable hands than Diamond is. I can keep a hand with Chrome and 1 land, I can't keep a hand with Diamond and 1 land. And even though they're taking different slots during deck construction, I'm still going to draw hands like that. I'm statistically more likely to draw hands that are spell heavy where chrome is good than I am to draw hands that are land heavy where diamond is good.
Conversely, if you assume I'm not going to draw either mox in a game (let's say it's sitting on the bottom of the library and I have 0 shuffle effects), my aggro deck is happier to have 1 fewer land and 1 more spell to play.
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This is obviously a perfect draw, but is facilitated by Chrome Mox (Mox Diamond works here too, but redundancy never killed anyone).
I also Prefer Chrome Mox in aggro decks where the fixing is less important (mono colored as above). I find that Diamond is a good bump for the first turn or two, but then you end up running out of lands and can't cast your expensive spell. I find this happening a little less with Chrome, mostly because I can just use my late game spell as the Chrome fodder.
I'm aware of this. But neither Mox makes you more or less likely to have more or less mana sources in your opening hand.
You can do it with any hypothetical:
4 spells and 3 lands is a keeper. If I was running Diamond in the deck AND it's in my opening hand, it looks like 3 spells, Diamond and 3 lands instead. If I was running Chrome in the deck, AND it's in my opening hand, it looks like 4 spells, Chrome and 2 lands instead. In either situation, I have 3 gas spells and three mana sources after the Mox is played.
5 spells and 2 lands is also a keeper. And just like above, I have the same Spell/Mana Source ratio after either Mox is played.
A 6 spell and 1 land hand requires a mulligan. Because Chrome Mox takes up a land slot during construction, A 6/1 hand still isn't a keeper, because if Chrome Mox IS in your opener, it's in the "1" slot, not one of the 6's. Same with the Diamond. Even though the Diamond is one of the "6" slots, I still only have one total mana source.
Because of how their classified during construction, the only safe assumption is to design a spell/land ratio that you might draw. If you wanna see what the hand would hypothetically look like with one of the Moxen, you replace the slot the mox competes for to see. For example, like above, a 4 spell 3 land hand would randomly replace one of the spell slots for a Diamond, and look like this: S, S, S, Diamond, L, L, L. And if you randomly replaced one of the land slots (the card type you cut to include the Chrome) with a Chrome Mox in that opener, it would look like: S, S, S, S, Chrome, L, L. After you cast the Mox on T1, BOTH hands look like S, S, S, L with Mox + L in play.
It doesn't work that way. Set up any potential 7 card opening hand. Design a randomized spell/land balance. If Chrome is in that hypothetical opening hand, it takes up one of the land slots. If Diamond is in that hypothetical opening hand, it takes up one of the spell slots. In either case, the overall spell/land ratio is always the same after the Mox is cast. You can't start with the assumption that you'll draw one of the two moxen at random, because they don't compete for the same spot during deck construction.
It's easier to say that Chrome is better when you replace the Chrome in your hand with a Diamond and show how different it would look. But in practice, it doesn't worth that way because if you remove Chrome from your potential opening hand, you don't draw Diamond instead. You draw the land it replaced instead. It takes up a Land Slot. Diamond takes up a Spell Slot. You can't just interchange the two cards in your hypothetical opener.
Hopefully this entire post clarifies why you can.
People want to exchange opening hands with a Chrome for identical opening hands with a Diamond. It doesn't work that way. In ANY case where you'd have a Diamond in your opening hand, it takes up one of your spell slots. In any case where you have a Chrome in your opening hand, it takes up one of your land slots.
So design any hypothetical opening hand by using X number of spells and Y number of lands, and then replace one of the X's with a Diamond or one of the Y's with a Chrome. In every example, the Spell/Land balance is identical no matter which Mox is played on T1.
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