It's really easy to hose aggro. There's a laundry list of cards that do that (and most of them do not cost 5-6 mana). It you want aggro to suck in your cube, it requires very little effort on your part.
To the original poster, it really depends on what type of environment you are trying to create. If you want an aggro dominated format, you will want to limit the number of cards which completely screw over aggro.
For the record, IMO both Batterskull and Wurmcoil (in particular) hose midrange more than they hose aggro. Aggro can win the game before these guys come on line. Midrange cannot generally do that, so it puts them at a severe disadvantage. With that said, midrange decks can play these cards so that is something of an equalizer. I'm personally not a big fan of huge life gain creatures that also provide some form of recursion as they are very warping to games even when your opponent has an answer. Batterskull is in my list right now and it's on the edge for me (might be coming out next update). I don't (and won't) run Wurmcoil.
Question for someone building a cube: Should all colours have an equal number of walkers in a cube? Obviously some colours have better walkers than others.
so if one colour only lacks good walkers, should all them have equal to the one that has the least?
Question for someone building a cube: Should all colours have an equal number of walkers in a cube? Obviously some colours have better walkers than others.
so if one colour only lacks good walkers, should all them have equal to the one that has the least?
No. All colors should use the tools that make them perform the best in your cube. I wouldn't limit enchantments in white just because there's only a few good red ones, and I wouldn't do it with Planeswalkers either.
Other than creating an arbitrary cap, there's no reason to limit the number of 'walkers a color is allowed to have.
Agree with wtwlf. I don't balance any of the card types across the colors. I just use the cards that the particular color needs/wants without any regard to the types.
I'm going to third the notion of 'however many you need/want' as far as PWs in a color go. While I certainly want to see some better ones in other colors/combinations since some colors (like white) have a veritable cornucopia of playable 'walkers, I'm never planning on limiting them for arbitrary reasons.
Question for someone building a cube: Should all colours have an equal number of walkers in a cube? Obviously some colours have better walkers than others.
so if one colour only lacks good walkers, should all them have equal to the one that has the least?
Most people probably don't try to have an equal amount of walkers in their cube. In my cube I decided to limit the amount of walkers. I have 9 walkers total in my 400 card cube and no black walkers. I got my friend a Liliana of the Veil but that is not something I would probably ever add to my cube. If you are trying to make a budget cube like I did then you just have black without any walkers. You get tempted into playing Liliana Vess or Liliana of the Dark Realms but they both don't seem good enough. Out of all the colors white is an easy color with so many good walkers too choose from. I only run Ajani Goldmane and Gideon Jura in white. Ajani Vengeant had gotten so cheap I could put that walker in my cube but I think I have enough walkers.
I'd like to play devil's advocate here....I support walker caps but it isn't so much about balancing power levels as it is preventing oversaturation of Walkers in drafts and by extension in games.
Already, some cubes run 5-6 walkers in white and 2-3 in the Gruul guild. Personally I run 2 per color 1 per guild, and Karn. I just worry about the day when every color and guild has so many cubeable walkers that a random pack might contain 5 walkers or more and no one bats an eye.....Walkers to me should have a certain exclusivity about them, they should feel special.
I just don't think we have hit that saturation yet, that's all. Some day, perhaps, but not yet.
I don't, I embrace our new planeswalker overlords with open arms. Its the second most interactive card type, after creatures. Interacting with my opponent is my favorite thing to do in games. I would say my cube is saturated with the card type now and I rarely see more then 2 in a pack. The "specialness" of planeswalkers will wear away in time anyway, i feel like having only 1 or 2 is just stalling the realization that it is just another card type in cube, the realization will still happen.
I'd like to play devil's advocate here....I support walker caps but it isn't so much about balancing power levels as it is preventing oversaturation of Walkers in drafts and by extension in games.
Already, some cubes run 5-6 walkers in white and 2-3 in the Gruul guild. Personally I run 2 per color 1 per guild, and Karn. I just worry about the day when every color and guild has so many cubeable walkers that a random pack might contain 5 walkers or more and no one bats an eye.....Walkers to me should have a certain exclusivity about them, they should feel special.
I don't think that's going to happen. I have fewer 'walkers in my cube now than I used to. Competition rises in each color, and not just from Planeswalkers. They're no harder to cut than any other card type is, and when new cards get printed (planeswalker or not) everything gets scrutinized. Outside of a handful of really broken 'walkers, none of their futures are guaranteed. And over the last several sets, we're seeing that they've figured the card type out (for the most part). We're not seeing insane staple mono-colored 'walkers at the rate we were seeing them before, and I think the cube is going to be perfectly safe from being "over-walkerized" so to speak.
Additionally, better and easier to include answers to 'walkers are getting printed regularly. With the power-creep to creatures and direct 'walker bullets being printed at the rate they are, I think that Planeswalkers will be less and less of a problem as time goes on.
I don't think that's going to happen. I have fewer 'walkers in my cube now than I used to. Competition rises in each color, and not just from Planeswalkers. They're no harder to cut than any other card type is, and when new cards get printed (planeswalker or not) everything gets scrutinized. Outside of a handful of really broken 'walkers, none of their futures are guaranteed. And over the last several sets, we're seeing that they've figured the card type out (for the most part). We're not seeing insane staple mono-colored 'walkers at the rate we were seeing them before, and I think the cube is going to be perfectly safe from being "over-walkerized" so to speak.
Additionally, better and easier to include answers to 'walkers are getting printed regularly. With the power-creep to creatures and direct 'walker bullets being printed at the rate they are, I think that Planeswalkers will be less and less of a problem as time goes on.
Excellent analysis. I don't see the day where I place a limit on the number of walkers I run. If you want to limit walkers then limit the size of your Cube and it will happen naturally because of the level of competition. I'm hoping to see more cards like Dreadbore & Hero's Downfall because I think that makes the walkers even more interactive and gives some cheap answers to those truly broken walkers like big Jace & original Elspeth.
I have a 720 cube and I play the 5 best ones. There's no real issue with walker oversaturation, since the aggro decks take the Ajanis, the control decks take Elspeth 3 and Gideon, and Elspeth 1 gets hatedrafted. There has yet to be a deck with 4 or more white planeswalkers in it.
I try to limit the number of planeswalkers I play. I don't have a fixed number or anything, but when I have the choice of including a sorcery/creature or a planeswalker for a given slot, I tend towards including the sorcery/creature. Examples are Hallowed Burial vs. Elspeth Tirel or Sun Titan vs. Elspeth, Sun's Champion. Partly, this is because of personal preference: I don't want to play with and against planeswalkers in every single game. But it is also because of general Cube composition: I believe a good Cube is a mix of versatile and specialized cards. Many planeswalkers are more versatile compared to specialized sorceries or creatures that accomplish similar things.
Hi, I don't get this concept, maybe you can explain it further.
Well, I like to draft synergistic decks and archetypes. A card like Elspeth Tirel can do different things which makes it playable in more decks and useful in more game states. But I want to be able to draft a consistent control deck, so I want a consistent wrath effect. Hallowed Burial will get rid of all creatures reliably, with Elspeth Tirel some things can go wrong and even if they don't, it will not be an immediate wrath effect. So for me that is a reason to not replace a sorcery with a walker.
I understand that, but the question was, why do you want to limit the number of walkers in general beside a personal opinion?
Ah, because for some archetypes, it is important to have enough creatures (Survival of the Fittest, Birthing Pod and the like), for others it is important to have enough instants and sorceries (Mystical Tutor/Snapcaster Mage, other spells matter cards for those who support that archetype). I don't have a specific number in mind when it comes to a limit for planeswalkers, it is just that to fill slots where either a sorcery/creature or a planeswalker is viable, I tend towards not including the planeswalkers in order to get a less versatile card that supports a specific archetype more heavily.
All I know is that opening a pack with 3 or more walkers really kills the excitement and exclusivity that i associate with the card type. I say run the best couple of each respective color or one for the guilds. I would use a rotation if your playgroup wants to experience play with different walkers.
You'd have to be running an asinine amount of planeswalkers to get this to become a reality.
I'd need to add eleven more planeswalkers into my cube just to average one per pack.
Your cube doesn't run a ridiculous amount of walkers either. My comments are more geared towards those with 5 or more in a single color at 450 or less.
Even still. You'd need to run 24 Planeswalkers in a 360 card cube to average a single Planeswalker per pack. That's enough for 4 for every single color plus 4 multicolored.
There's only 41 planeswalker cards total, and several of those are absolutely uncubeable (Nissa Revane, Tibalt, The Fiend-Blooded). If you ran 39 Planeswalkers at 360, you'd only average just over 1.5 Planeswalkers per pack.
At 450, you increase these numbers by 25%. You'd need 30 walkers to hit 1 per pack on average. And running 39 gives you like 1.3 walkers per pack.
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If you are concerened about too many Planeswalkers, run more cards like Bramblecrush. You are crafting an environment, so either omit them or run more answers.
Hi, I don't get this concept, maybe you can explain it further.
Personally I don't see any reason to create an artificial limit as planeswalkers should compete like every other card type with every other card and only the best cards should survive.
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And that's why you don't get the concept. Not everyone is designing their cube with the philosophy that the most powerful cards are the ones you want to run. I exclude a considerable amount of power cards because I want to craft a specific meta that caters to my group. Everybody should be doing that in principle (I think most are). If running the most powerful stuff possible at every CC is how you accomplish that, you are going to wind up with a lot of walkers in your list.
I don't think hopefulhawkeye is saying that they average 3 PWs per pack, but it happens. I only run about 2 per color in my 630, and I've seen packs with 3 planeswalkers. The only reason it bothers me though is that 3+ color planeswalker control is one of my favorite archetypes, and it's less likely I'll see one of the other 2 wheel!
I personally don't have a limit but as they are mythic rares they aren't as quickly obtained and sometimes cash is a mythic rare for me, too, and I don't add any more proxies to my cube. But planeswalkers are my favorite card type in Magic, and they tend to promote creature combat which is something I work towards with my cube.
If running the most powerful stuff possible at every CC is how you accomplish that, you are going to wind up with a lot of walkers in your list.
"Best" is subjective, even in his case. Best simply means what's best for your cube. I include cards because they're the best cards to run in my list. It's not about power, it's about fit. And jamming in all the 'walkers probably isn't the best fit for any configuration. I run what I consider to be the best options for what I'm trying to do, and my 'walker count is relatively low.
You are talking averages here. I never said 3 was a norm but it shouldn't even be an infrequent occurrence. Two should be infrequent 3 should be like magical christmas land.
I think one out of every 50 packs is pretty infrequent.
The limitations of planeswalkers you learn want to, hmm? Find no simple answer, you will. Hmmmmmm.
There is always a limit for planeswalkers. Some Cube designers explicitly state it ("only two planeswalkers per color"). Some don't, but even they have a limit, it is just much more fuzzy what that limit is, exactly. That is why I can only explain my approach by using examples.
The limitations of planeswalkers you learn want to, hmm? Find no simple answer, you will. Hmmmmmm.
There is always a limit for planeswalkers. Some Cube designers explicitly state it ("only two planeswalkers per color"). Some don't, but even they have a limit, it is just much more fuzzy what that limit is, exactly. That is why I can only explain my approach by using examples.
Everyone does have an internal limit I'll agree to that. I love planeswalkers but 50 blue cards and 50 blue planeswalkers seems absurd. To me though the limit is almost impossible to reach due to the relatively small casting range planeswalkers belong in 3-6(90ish% of them) and how slowly they get printed. Creatures make drafts run smoothly so they will always comprise about a half of the total card pool, so at most planeswalkers would be half the card pool, but where am I gonna find a planeswalker that competes with ancestral recall, grave titan, or goblin guide? To me, my limit will probably never get reached especially because planeswalkers seem to compete with eachother more then their CMC cards. Im probably not the only one that cut elsepth 2.0 for megaelspeth when theros came out.
To the original poster, it really depends on what type of environment you are trying to create. If you want an aggro dominated format, you will want to limit the number of cards which completely screw over aggro.
For the record, IMO both Batterskull and Wurmcoil (in particular) hose midrange more than they hose aggro. Aggro can win the game before these guys come on line. Midrange cannot generally do that, so it puts them at a severe disadvantage. With that said, midrange decks can play these cards so that is something of an equalizer. I'm personally not a big fan of huge life gain creatures that also provide some form of recursion as they are very warping to games even when your opponent has an answer. Batterskull is in my list right now and it's on the edge for me (might be coming out next update). I don't (and won't) run Wurmcoil.
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so if one colour only lacks good walkers, should all them have equal to the one that has the least?
No. All colors should use the tools that make them perform the best in your cube. I wouldn't limit enchantments in white just because there's only a few good red ones, and I wouldn't do it with Planeswalkers either.
Other than creating an arbitrary cap, there's no reason to limit the number of 'walkers a color is allowed to have.
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I just don't think we have hit that saturation yet, that's all. Some day, perhaps, but not yet.
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I don't think that's going to happen. I have fewer 'walkers in my cube now than I used to. Competition rises in each color, and not just from Planeswalkers. They're no harder to cut than any other card type is, and when new cards get printed (planeswalker or not) everything gets scrutinized. Outside of a handful of really broken 'walkers, none of their futures are guaranteed. And over the last several sets, we're seeing that they've figured the card type out (for the most part). We're not seeing insane staple mono-colored 'walkers at the rate we were seeing them before, and I think the cube is going to be perfectly safe from being "over-walkerized" so to speak.
Additionally, better and easier to include answers to 'walkers are getting printed regularly. With the power-creep to creatures and direct 'walker bullets being printed at the rate they are, I think that Planeswalkers will be less and less of a problem as time goes on.
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Excellent analysis. I don't see the day where I place a limit on the number of walkers I run. If you want to limit walkers then limit the size of your Cube and it will happen naturally because of the level of competition. I'm hoping to see more cards like Dreadbore & Hero's Downfall because I think that makes the walkers even more interactive and gives some cheap answers to those truly broken walkers like big Jace & original Elspeth.
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You'd have to be running an asinine amount of planeswalkers to get this to become a reality.
I'd need to add eleven more planeswalkers into my cube just to average one per pack.
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Even still. You'd need to run 24 Planeswalkers in a 360 card cube to average a single Planeswalker per pack. That's enough for 4 for every single color plus 4 multicolored.
There's only 41 planeswalker cards total, and several of those are absolutely uncubeable (Nissa Revane, Tibalt, The Fiend-Blooded). If you ran 39 Planeswalkers at 360, you'd only average just over 1.5 Planeswalkers per pack.
At 450, you increase these numbers by 25%. You'd need 30 walkers to hit 1 per pack on average. And running 39 gives you like 1.3 walkers per pack.
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And that's why you don't get the concept. Not everyone is designing their cube with the philosophy that the most powerful cards are the ones you want to run. I exclude a considerable amount of power cards because I want to craft a specific meta that caters to my group. Everybody should be doing that in principle (I think most are). If running the most powerful stuff possible at every CC is how you accomplish that, you are going to wind up with a lot of walkers in your list.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I personally don't have a limit but as they are mythic rares they aren't as quickly obtained and sometimes cash is a mythic rare for me, too, and I don't add any more proxies to my cube. But planeswalkers are my favorite card type in Magic, and they tend to promote creature combat which is something I work towards with my cube.
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"Best" is subjective, even in his case. Best simply means what's best for your cube. I include cards because they're the best cards to run in my list. It's not about power, it's about fit. And jamming in all the 'walkers probably isn't the best fit for any configuration. I run what I consider to be the best options for what I'm trying to do, and my 'walker count is relatively low.
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I think one out of every 50 packs is pretty infrequent.
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There is always a limit for planeswalkers. Some Cube designers explicitly state it ("only two planeswalkers per color"). Some don't, but even they have a limit, it is just much more fuzzy what that limit is, exactly. That is why I can only explain my approach by using examples.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Everyone does have an internal limit I'll agree to that. I love planeswalkers but 50 blue cards and 50 blue planeswalkers seems absurd. To me though the limit is almost impossible to reach due to the relatively small casting range planeswalkers belong in 3-6(90ish% of them) and how slowly they get printed. Creatures make drafts run smoothly so they will always comprise about a half of the total card pool, so at most planeswalkers would be half the card pool, but where am I gonna find a planeswalker that competes with ancestral recall, grave titan, or goblin guide? To me, my limit will probably never get reached especially because planeswalkers seem to compete with eachother more then their CMC cards. Im probably not the only one that cut elsepth 2.0 for megaelspeth when theros came out.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979