We tried it out in my 500 card cube. If it didn't come down turn on turn 1 or 2, it was pretty much useless outside of anything other than the control vs. control mirror, and even then it was not something you ever wanted to top deck. The turn delay is just brutal in most situations. I would probably end up playing it if our cube had 100-300 more cards, just because drawing 3 cards for 1 mana is still that good, even if you have to wait multiple turns for it.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." —Jaya Ballard, task mage
Moxes are less useful when they don't come down in the first few turns. Library of Aexander is less useful if you draw it after turns 1 and 2. Are they powerful enough to be staples? Yes.
It's likely within the top 10 blue cards in my large unpowered cube. Yes, it has a drawback, but it's nevertheless so powerful that it's worth playing in spite of it. It gets first-picked all the time here and I don't foresee that changing anytime soon.
Moxes are less useful when they don't come down in the first few turns. Library of Aexander is less useful if you draw it after turns 1 and 2. Are they powerful enough to be staples? Yes.
Ancestral Vision is the same.
Moxen and Library replace basic lands, something you'd play regardless of their inclusion but with their inclusion you get a better version for the most part... Visions does not do the same.
Moxes are less useful when they don't come down in the first few turns. Library of Aexander is less useful if you draw it after turns 1 and 2. Are they powerful enough to be staples? Yes.
Ancestral Vision is the same.
i don't like these comparisons because none of them do nothing when they're topdecked. they are also free. visions is literally a dead card past a certain turn. you spend mana and a card and get nothing from it.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
Visions is a great card, all of the bad cases people always throw out doesn't happen that often. Nowhere near my chopping block. Even when I was powered
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Unless you're playing against hyper aggro, the game is going to last more than four or five turns, I think ten to fifteen (okay, fifteen is a lot) is more realistic, especially for a grindy UB control. If you draw it on any but your last four turns, it's going to do something, and something is a lot here. Drawing three cards, then another one, then having your entire main phase ahead of you is probably enough to play a super swingy bomb, mass removal or other sick card.
Specialities about the cube: U tempo, B aggro, R slow-ish are supported. G aggro is not.
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**some cards are banned. Library of Alexandria, Land Tax, Sol Ring.
This card is basically a delayed Ancestral about 75-80% of the time. The other 20-25% of the time, you die with it on the field. It's up to you if that is good enough. I like it a lot more than Standstill, which costs more, and has a much more significant downside. I think this card should be played at 450.
(Looks like eidolon did a better job with the poker math above)
I can't find room for it at 500, but even being powered, the card is still good. It's a dead late game draw. Far worse than a Mox or a Library, but it has a really powerful upside in the early game. I'd try to fit it in at 630, myself. Or much lower if my cube was unpowered.
AV gets first-picked often here because of its power. Blue in general makes games last longer, so it is rarely not unsuspending before you die (people tend to overstate how much that happens). As Kenny said, the drawback is WELL worth the power level of the card. In control vs. control, you also get a lot more mileage out of the timing of AV being a live draw, so the 'awful topdeck' argument loses some steam.
Don't forget that Shardless Agent has also added some extra value to AV as well...cascading into it is delightful, by the way!
I also think it's a very solid card, for mostly the same reasons that have already been stated (games hardly end where it's suspended and the fear of that drawback is pretty overstated.)
I don't own one, so it didn't make my 540, but commentary here forces me to at least test it and consider purchasing one. Always struck me as a card like Smallpox. Great build around but no good if you can't all but insure one in your opening hand. I am always willing to learn...
If you are playing blue control, you should have tools to extent the game length. I was pretty down on this card due to its potential to do nothing before I actually played it. However, now that it has been in my cube for some time, I would say that you die before the last time counters gets removed in only 1/4 or 1/5 of the games you draw it. This means the vast majority of games it is an Ancestral Recall with a reasonable time delay. Which is awesome.
I think the delay is reasonable. My experience has been even less than 1/5 of games its a dead card. It definitely is not fun to draw with an empty hand and your back up against the wall, but playing blue that rarely happens and if it does you are probably dead regardless. Ancestral Vision is also the best Snapcaster Mage target EVER.
I think the delay is reasonable. My experience has been even less than 1/5 of games its a dead card. Definitely is not fun to draw on with an empty hand and your back up against the wall, but playing blue that rarely happens and if it does you are probably dead regardless. Ancestral Visions is also the best Snapcaster Mage target EVER.
Uhh... Under rulings in Gatherer...
This has no mana cost, which means it can't be cast with the Replicate ability of Djinn Illuminatus or by somehow giving it Flashback.
We ran Vision for quite a while and I was very rarely impressed with it. I don't feel like my cube is overly aggressive, but it felt like if you weren't playing control v control and you didn't see Vision before turn 4-5, you would likely finish the game with it suspended. It just takes so long for it to be useful.
Library of Alexandria is at least sometimes as good on turn five as it is on turn one. Ancestral Vision is never as good as it is on turn one. After that crucial first turn it starts a pretty steep downhill slope away from value town.
So drawing 3 extra cards on turn 6 is significantly worse than turn 5 in blue? That seems like overstating to me. I feel like turns 5-8 are all pretty good for extra cards, and beyond that you start losing some significant value (esp. vs. aggro); my blue decks are pretty happy to draw extra cards whenever, and if they can't survive until turn 7-8 then there are other issues with it beyond playing Ancestral Visions.
So drawing 3 extra cards on turn 6 is significantly worse than turn 5 in blue? That seems like overstating to me. I feel like turns 5-8 are all pretty good for extra cards, and beyond that you start losing some significant value (esp. vs. aggro); my blue decks are pretty happy to draw extra cards whenever, and if they can't survive until turn 7-8 then there are other issues with it beyond playing Ancestral Visions.
-AA
Not necessarily, the problem with AV is that it has no immediate impact. As long as it has time counters on it it is like milling them and they still have cards left to draw - it is only threatening something in the future but otherwise irrelevant for the present. In an otherwise solid deck with one dead card, drawing the dead card can very well be the reason to lose the game.
AV is great in your starting hand and still good when drawn early. After that it depends on the match-up, and against aggressive decks it will be dead more often than not.
I'm considering AV for re-inclusion because I no longer play powered, but I really don't like that it has no immediate impact. I prefer the library manipulation cards (Preordain, Ponder and Brainstorm) as one mana draw spells. My other draw spells are Thirst for Knowledge and Frantic Search to help out Reanimator, Standstill for blue tempo and Deep Analysis and Fact or Fiction because they are the nuts.
All that said, if my cube was slightly bigger I would play AV, say at 500 or 540 or something.
So drawing 3 extra cards on turn 6 is significantly worse than turn 5 in blue? That seems like overstating to me. I feel like turns 5-8 are all pretty good for extra cards, and beyond that you start losing some significant value (esp. vs. aggro); my blue decks are pretty happy to draw extra cards whenever, and if they can't survive until turn 7-8 then there are other issues with it beyond playing Ancestral Visions.
-AA
Not exactly. My point was that as the game goes on past the first turn, AV starts losing a ton of value. I want to have it in my opener or at the very least be able to suspend it before turn 4-5. If you don't see it before then, it's useless. Against an especially good aggro deck, you're most likely pretty close to dead (if not already there) by turn 5-7 (assuming you're the control player). Suspending AV on turn one means that on turn five you get three extra cards. Those cards could be the answer you were looking for to get back on your feet. If your control deck was able to turn the tides and tempo him out, but didn't see AV until after turn five, you have to sit in waiting and hope you can continue to hold control until it resolves four turns later. That's just too long, IMO, to be waiting on a card to provide me with value.
Let's look at it this way:
Suspending AV on turns 1-3 nets you cards on turns 5-7. That's pretty good. You'll likely be in need of a refill by then, and you might even be digging for answer. Suspending it that early makes the card totally awesome and completely worth it's slot in the cube.
Suspending AV on turns 4-6 nets you cards on turns 8-10. A good aggro deck is likely to have the game won by then, making AV useless. Against midrange, it's possible that they just weren't quick enough and by turn 10, you're starting your ascent toward victory and controlling the game. And in control v control, the games never finish before now, so it's still solid in that matchup. It's not terrible suspending it during those turns, but it's not optimal. It's still a very real possibility that the game will be over before it resolves.
Suspending AV on turns 7-9 nets you cards on turns 11-13. Against aggro this is only relevant if you managed to survive the early onslaught and take control. If that's the case you're likely going to win anyway, even without the extra three cards. It's turn 11. You're control deck should be wrapping up the game by now. The same for midrange. This late in the game, you have probably tempo'ed them out and and left them with basically nothing. It's likely that you're just winning with your Titan by now. Three extra cards, while welcome, still doesn't help you much. It's like giving Bill Gates a new car. And in control v control, the cards may help you to seal the deal. We all know how control v control matches can go very long, so getting cards one turn 11-13 can still be completely solid.
Suspending it any time after turn 9 is only relevant in control vs control.
So, with all that said, if you're not suspending it on turns 1-5, it's probably not going to provide you with much value. As I said, I saw too many games finish up with time counters still left on AV. My group was excited to include it, but after multiple drafts and games with it in, we were also excited to remove it.
Basically, the card is high-variance in a tempo/aggro deck, but solid in a deck with the tools and gameplan to make the game go long.
I just need to stop taking it so highly in tempo decks -- I hate black vise for the same reason, and that pairs better with a tempo deck's inherent plan.
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Ancestral Vision
While it's been known to be a powerhouse in constructed, does it deserve a spot in cube?
Ancestral Vision is the same.
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Moxen and Library replace basic lands, something you'd play regardless of their inclusion but with their inclusion you get a better version for the most part... Visions does not do the same.
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i don't like these comparisons because none of them do nothing when they're topdecked. they are also free. visions is literally a dead card past a certain turn. you spend mana and a card and get nothing from it.
A late game or ABU Moxen / library top deck at worst is free card and can tap for mana that turn.
Vision does nothing for 4 turns if u draw it. i wouldn't even consider playing it until 720.
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(Looks like eidolon did a better job with the poker math above)
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Don't forget that Shardless Agent has also added some extra value to AV as well...cascading into it is delightful, by the way!
-AA
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I also think it's a very solid card, for mostly the same reasons that have already been stated (games hardly end where it's suspended and the fear of that drawback is pretty overstated.)
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Uhh... Under rulings in Gatherer...
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Library of Alexandria is at least sometimes as good on turn five as it is on turn one. Ancestral Vision is never as good as it is on turn one. After that crucial first turn it starts a pretty steep downhill slope away from value town.
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-AA
I use descriptive language. Assume that I'm being nice and respectful. (I'll tell you when I'm not.)
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AV is great in your starting hand and still good when drawn early. After that it depends on the match-up, and against aggressive decks it will be dead more often than not.
I'm considering AV for re-inclusion because I no longer play powered, but I really don't like that it has no immediate impact. I prefer the library manipulation cards (Preordain, Ponder and Brainstorm) as one mana draw spells. My other draw spells are Thirst for Knowledge and Frantic Search to help out Reanimator, Standstill for blue tempo and Deep Analysis and Fact or Fiction because they are the nuts.
All that said, if my cube was slightly bigger I would play AV, say at 500 or 540 or something.
"What am I looking at? Ashes, dead man."
Not exactly. My point was that as the game goes on past the first turn, AV starts losing a ton of value. I want to have it in my opener or at the very least be able to suspend it before turn 4-5. If you don't see it before then, it's useless. Against an especially good aggro deck, you're most likely pretty close to dead (if not already there) by turn 5-7 (assuming you're the control player). Suspending AV on turn one means that on turn five you get three extra cards. Those cards could be the answer you were looking for to get back on your feet. If your control deck was able to turn the tides and tempo him out, but didn't see AV until after turn five, you have to sit in waiting and hope you can continue to hold control until it resolves four turns later. That's just too long, IMO, to be waiting on a card to provide me with value.
Let's look at it this way:
Suspending AV on turns 1-3 nets you cards on turns 5-7. That's pretty good. You'll likely be in need of a refill by then, and you might even be digging for answer. Suspending it that early makes the card totally awesome and completely worth it's slot in the cube.
Suspending AV on turns 4-6 nets you cards on turns 8-10. A good aggro deck is likely to have the game won by then, making AV useless. Against midrange, it's possible that they just weren't quick enough and by turn 10, you're starting your ascent toward victory and controlling the game. And in control v control, the games never finish before now, so it's still solid in that matchup. It's not terrible suspending it during those turns, but it's not optimal. It's still a very real possibility that the game will be over before it resolves.
Suspending AV on turns 7-9 nets you cards on turns 11-13. Against aggro this is only relevant if you managed to survive the early onslaught and take control. If that's the case you're likely going to win anyway, even without the extra three cards. It's turn 11. You're control deck should be wrapping up the game by now. The same for midrange. This late in the game, you have probably tempo'ed them out and and left them with basically nothing. It's likely that you're just winning with your Titan by now. Three extra cards, while welcome, still doesn't help you much. It's like giving Bill Gates a new car. And in control v control, the cards may help you to seal the deal. We all know how control v control matches can go very long, so getting cards one turn 11-13 can still be completely solid.
Suspending it any time after turn 9 is only relevant in control vs control.
So, with all that said, if you're not suspending it on turns 1-5, it's probably not going to provide you with much value. As I said, I saw too many games finish up with time counters still left on AV. My group was excited to include it, but after multiple drafts and games with it in, we were also excited to remove it.
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I just need to stop taking it so highly in tempo decks -- I hate black vise for the same reason, and that pairs better with a tempo deck's inherent plan.