This card just flat-out beats some decks that are out there.
That being said, it gets hate-drafted more in my 2-player drafts than the times where it actually gets drafted & played. For that reason I'm thinking of cutting it for a card that isn't as oppressive. A concern is that my 475-card Cube only has 22 ways of dealing with Moat (11 ways to remove it & 11 ways to counter it). I bet most other Cubes have similar numbers on ways to deal with it. Does this mean that it's too strong because there are so few ways to deal with it? I'm not necessarily a fan of cutting a card because it's "too powerful" but this card might be "too oppressive" (especially against aggro).
What are your thoughts on Moat for Cube? Please include thoughts on how you think the power would vary in drafts of different sizes (2-8 man drafts).
It's either amazing and stops everything or completely blank. I don't really like that type of card, might lead to Boring as we watch draw, go, draw, go, draw, go, etc, as the superior deck can't outright kill the guy with moat even if it can deal with all of its other threats.
I love Moat. It enables the Moat deck, and it's just a good all-around card. In the right deck, it's really powerful and oppressive, and in other situations, it can be beaten. Unless you ban cards for being "too good", I can't see cubing without it.
I guess if I already owned one I'd pop it in there to try it. As it stands, I don't think my cube would be more fun with it in there. Same reason I don't fill my cube with Walls.
I love Moat. It enables the Moat deck, and it's just a good all-around card. In the right deck, it's really powerful and oppressive, and in other situations, it can be beaten. Unless you ban cards for being "too good", I can't see cubing without it.
Yep, I'll agree with everything said here. I think it's an absolute staple at 360 and above. Even decks without ways to remove it in the maindeck or sideboard are usually able to beat it, but it's actually pretty awesome (IMO) when a four mana enchantment can just singlehandedly win the game against an unprepared opponent.
I think the most awesome Moat stories are ones where Moat wrecks a deck, the guy gets it out at ~8 life and thinks he's stabilized but through really awesome topdecks, the other deck wins just barely. Those are the stories cube is about, IMO.
Or better yet, having ONE answer to Moat (like an Indrik Stomphowler) and holding onto it / protecting it the entire game in fear of Moat, and it paying off for you being a good player when the opposing deck finally drops Moat.
It also helps the stock of enchantment destroyers go way up, which is always a good thing IMO. I can't say enough good things about Moat.
Moat is one of white's best cards, particularly in control decks. I see it as the other side of the coin for Armageddon/Ravages...a powerful 4 CC white spell.
I just wanted to discuss this one - I am at the point where I have restricted my cube to Legacy-legal cards only, but I want to then include all of the best Legacy cards. Now, Moat is an obvious inclusion on power level. I've read through the thread, but I have to be honest, I'm a little worried about it leading to games/matches where opponents just scoop rather than play magic. I've been trying hard to ensure that aggro is a thing, and this one card just blanks aggro decks, especially Red/Black who have no answers to an enchantment. Unfortunately, my play group is not particularly fond of cards that entire decks can't answer. Now, I get that there are some things you can do, (e.g. land destruction to keep them from getting to 4 to cast it, discard, fliers, straight burn) but I can already see people picking up their decks and moving on to the next match. They won't be angry - they just won't be having fun, which is the point. Has anyone tried Moat and had this experience?
EDIT: It may also be worth mentioning that I'm on the verge of dropping my cube down to 360 from 450 - meaning that an individual card, like Moat, would turn up more frequently than it currently does.
Some cards are just impossible for some combinations to deal with.
If I'm rakdos aggro, I really don't want to see Moat, but I do have ways around it. Master of the Feast can deal the last 5 if I get a good start off. Cursed Scroll can also provide some reach to get that last few damage in there.
Moat does not always lead to the most amazing or fun positions on board, but it does lead to interesting, amazing, and fun games where one player needs to topdeck a Disenchant and then does. It skews deck construction and drafting in a way that players need to be aware if a Moat is out there to draft and construct their decks differently.
I will never cut a card for power concern reasons. The entire reason to play a powered cube (IMO) is to play with the most powerful cards in Magic!
Thanks - I understand what you're saying. I may just need to remind players of some of the ways that you can work around a card like Moat after the first feel-bad moment. Also, I have a different goal for my cube - the goal isn't to play with the most powerful cards in Magic - the goal is to have fun playing Magic with awesome cards. If it isn't fun, then we're doing it wrong.
It doesn't cause any more scoops than any other really powerful cube card does. Armageddon ends 10x the games that Moat does, in all honesty. I wouldn't worry about it. Add ways to beat Moat to your deck.
I might sing a different tune if I was at 360 drafting with 8, but I just don't see it enough for it to wreck games. Most color combinations should have some kind of answer, be it bounce, flyers, disenchants, etc... If you don't then maybe you'll draft the disenchant stuff a bit higher next time!
I've also been really hesitant about running Moat. Maybe it's worth a trial run or two. The one thing I hadn't realized prior to watching random cube drafts online is the actual symmetry of the effect. Even though it can shut down your opponent, you either need to really build your deck to get around it, or have the ability to remove the moat when you're ready to win.
Black doesn't auto fold to Moat because it has targeted and random discard and some efficient fat fliers. Red has serious difficulties, but that's a weakness of mono-red decks and an incentive for players to not build decks with gaping flaws. Moat is usually not as good as the Wrath variants despite being a little harder to deal with. And you can randomly shut your own creatures down as MunchieeZ mentioned.
I don't like moat because it's such an all-or-nothing card. I don't think it's too powerful, but either your deck can deal with it and it's a speed bump at worst, or it can't and you just fold to it. I don't like cards that are so binary, especially ones that so punish one or two colors, like this does severely to red, and to black unless you can strip it from their hand, especially black aggro.
That being said, it is a powerful effect and its personal preference that I don't like it after playing with it, so proxy it up and test it out if you're curious. You can always take it out again if your playgroup finds it too unfun, and they might love it.
Just run more fliers in the colors that would make a difference. Go old school add in Shivan Dragon (and other dragons)a, Roc of Kher Ridges (flying hill giant), Sengir Vampire and the like (or you know better newer fliers) and Moat will be less of a problem.
I am with Smallcat here; Moat is a great card but it's just too binary for my Cube. It's either oppressive (a lot) or just a way to finally use your Stomphowler etc. in your hand and kill them. I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't awesome.
Just run more fliers in the colors that would make a difference. Go old school add in Shivan Dragon (and other dragons)a, Roc of Kher Ridges (flying hill giant), Sengir Vampire and the like (or you know better newer fliers) and Moat will be less of a problem.
I don't really like adding sub-par cards that are bad in every situation except against a specific card.
I don't really like adding sub-par cards that are bad in every situation except against a specific card.
So add newer better fliers. I hear Thundermaw Hellkite is a hit with the kids these days... Red also has Chaos Warp. Black has tons of fliers from Bloodgift Demon to tribalvampires and Master of the Feast and otherdemons. I suggested old cards because those are what I like, and because they were the primary answers available in those colors in the era when Moat was printed. You could also push to have those colors play out less aggro by adding more powerful non-creature spells. Moat will still be a good card with these additions, but the white player will need to save those Swords to Plowshares and other removal spells for the creatures that matter making it more of a strategic card and not just a one sided lock down.
Wow, I don't even remember making this thread two years ago. My Cube experience has changed so much since then. Back then it was almost exclusively 2-man drafts & now we're mostly 4 or 6 person drafts. I can't imagine cutting Moat in my current situation but can understand how someone would want to change their Cube if they only/mostly do 2-man drafts.
Moat is now one of my favorite build-around cards. There are also more cards that deal with it than even 2 years ago plus we've made black have a fliers subtheme. All of these things combine to make Moat a little weaker yet still insanely powerful. It's definitely in my top ten list of "build around" cards.
I seriously can't believe I made this thread two years ago. I think it's a perfect example of how Cubes & Cube experiences can change as well as opinions on them. The moral is to stay open-minded
Personally I don't care for Moat too much in cube, it seems underpowered at times, but then other times it's insane, its hit or miss for me, but I wouldn't cut it because when it's good it's really good and when it's bad/mediocre, it's still annoying.
I really don't like Moat. There are cards where the best case scenario pretty much wins you the game on the spot or at least within the next two or three turns. While those cards can crush the opponent, at least it is over quickly and you can start a new game. Moat's bcs however prolongs the game rather than shortens it. The opponent can no longer move the game forward, but can't really concede either, since he might draw either one of his few enchantment removals or flyers that are strong or numerous enough to win. It is a sucky situation to just sit there and hope that you draw your important cards before your opponent draws his good cards while most of your creatures have become completely useless. Another thing that I don't like about Moat is that it is sometimes worse than a Wrath, but against many aggro decks, it is better than a Wrath.
This card just flat-out beats some decks that are out there.
That being said, it gets hate-drafted more in my 2-player drafts than the times where it actually gets drafted & played. For that reason I'm thinking of cutting it for a card that isn't as oppressive. A concern is that my 475-card Cube only has 22 ways of dealing with Moat (11 ways to remove it & 11 ways to counter it). I bet most other Cubes have similar numbers on ways to deal with it. Does this mean that it's too strong because there are so few ways to deal with it? I'm not necessarily a fan of cutting a card because it's "too powerful" but this card might be "too oppressive" (especially against aggro).
What are your thoughts on Moat for Cube? Please include thoughts on how you think the power would vary in drafts of different sizes (2-8 man drafts).
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The only reason that I don't cube with it is because I don't play with proxies and can't justify the very high price tag.
If you have the cash, or play with proxies I don't see a reason not to include it.
Yeah, Moat and Gifts Given are too oppressive for my cube.
People just don't enjoy playing against them.
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Yep, I'll agree with everything said here. I think it's an absolute staple at 360 and above. Even decks without ways to remove it in the maindeck or sideboard are usually able to beat it, but it's actually pretty awesome (IMO) when a four mana enchantment can just singlehandedly win the game against an unprepared opponent.
I think the most awesome Moat stories are ones where Moat wrecks a deck, the guy gets it out at ~8 life and thinks he's stabilized but through really awesome topdecks, the other deck wins just barely. Those are the stories cube is about, IMO.
Or better yet, having ONE answer to Moat (like an Indrik Stomphowler) and holding onto it / protecting it the entire game in fear of Moat, and it paying off for you being a good player when the opposing deck finally drops Moat.
It also helps the stock of enchantment destroyers go way up, which is always a good thing IMO. I can't say enough good things about Moat.
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EDIT: It may also be worth mentioning that I'm on the verge of dropping my cube down to 360 from 450 - meaning that an individual card, like Moat, would turn up more frequently than it currently does.
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If I'm rakdos aggro, I really don't want to see Moat, but I do have ways around it. Master of the Feast can deal the last 5 if I get a good start off. Cursed Scroll can also provide some reach to get that last few damage in there.
Moat does not always lead to the most amazing or fun positions on board, but it does lead to interesting, amazing, and fun games where one player needs to topdeck a Disenchant and then does. It skews deck construction and drafting in a way that players need to be aware if a Moat is out there to draft and construct their decks differently.
I will never cut a card for power concern reasons. The entire reason to play a powered cube (IMO) is to play with the most powerful cards in Magic!
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That being said, it is a powerful effect and its personal preference that I don't like it after playing with it, so proxy it up and test it out if you're curious. You can always take it out again if your playgroup finds it too unfun, and they might love it.
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I don't really like adding sub-par cards that are bad in every situation except against a specific card.
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Moat is now one of my favorite build-around cards. There are also more cards that deal with it than even 2 years ago plus we've made black have a fliers subtheme. All of these things combine to make Moat a little weaker yet still insanely powerful. It's definitely in my top ten list of "build around" cards.
I seriously can't believe I made this thread two years ago. I think it's a perfect example of how Cubes & Cube experiences can change as well as opinions on them. The moral is to stay open-minded
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