Thoughts on Harmonize and its value in Cube? We have new Garruk as another source to draw cards. I think it's still in Cube lists because it's such a unique effect in green. It's a card I've considered cutting from my 500 before but the people I play with think it should stay. I feel fairly neutral about it but with my upcoming AVR updates I feel like it's now the worst card in green. The way my games typically play out with green decks I'd rather drop another sweet 4-drop instead of drawing cards.
Like many older cards I feel like Harmonize's time may have passed in Cubes.
I'm not a fan. The 4cc slot is absolutely stacked in the cube, and green has a TON of card advantage in the cube to play the color-shifted Concentrate nowadays.
The card is bad against aggro, and not really that great against the rest of the field. Garruk 2 is leagues better, as is Sylvan Library. Frankly, as strange as this sounds, the days of dedicated draw spells (at least sorcery speed ones) might be numbered in cube. There are simply too many great cards and too many fast decks to spend an entire turn in the midgame getting +2 cards.
I cut it from my 500 card Powered cube and don't miss it. I'd consider it if went up to 720 or 800 cards but not before that. It's too fair for today's cube standards.
After running it in my more traditional cube (will still post it someday, when I curate it for recent sets) for quite a while, I strongly dislike Harmonize. I like it in constructed, but is just really sloooow for green in my cubes. There isn't a good time to spend four mana without impacting the board until hugely late in the game, making Harmonize way more of a virtual mulligan/booby trap than any number of other sweet green cards.
I wish there were more reasonable green draw cards in cube, but Harmonize isn't it. I hate saying 'compare the colors', but Concentrate is so far from being cubeable and I believe that it is just as awkward in green. Better to just get value with a million ETB dudes.
I like Hunter's Insight more than Harmonize, and think it's better fit on curve, and also have potential to be absurd later on in the game. But maybe that's just me. I cut it now, though.
the more pressing issue for me is why no one ever seems offended by blatant color pie offenders like this. i really don't get why people are so willing to sell out any semblance of color identity for cards like this and phyrexian mana.
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i haven't really been around here in forver, probably shouldn't have been so broad. my impression from looking at lists here a while back was that this was a very common include, but maybe that's changed.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
i really don't get why people are so willing to sell out any semblance of color identity for cards like this and phyrexian mana.
Because these things were printed as actual magic cards and some people aren't so arrogant as to presume they are the voice of objective truth in determining what certain colours should and should not be able to do?
actually, the very act of building a Cube is to take up that very role of "voice of objective truth". your Cube is a direct reflection of your choices and thought processes. i'm just curious why others choose something so clearly wrong to me. while I probably did sound pretty judgmental, there is no need for you to bring such venom and vitriol to the tenor.
Because these things were printed as actual magic cards
is appeal to authority. Wizards makes the decision, that doesn't make them the objective voice of truth either, just a more powerful voice. (until Cube came along that is)
"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
I do have a problem with colour bleed. This is one of the main reasons that I don't include Harmonize. For more powerful cards, though, it can be difficult to hold out strictly for colour pie reasons. I still don't run Sylvan Library because I don't feel it's on colour for Green either, but I'm not sure I'll be able to hold out forever. I mean, Land Tax isn't very White, is it? But I still run it. (Feels like a Green card to me).
Every color has precedence for most things, even from early sets. Sylvan Library is green draw, and it's 18 years old. Land Tax and other effects like it are plenty white, because it's been a small subtheme of white's since Legends.
Some dream cards could be gratuitous color bleed, which I could see someone having a problem with, but I don't care; I'd run it anyways.
I don't have a problem with color-bleed. Black doesn't get disenchants, but if they printed one, I'd sure as hell use it.
black really got double punished since they can't do **** about artifacts or enchantments, and since they don't get LD anymore since that's Not A Thing according to modern R&D. black has needed something for a long time, but i won't be holding my breath on them addressing the issue.
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Every color has precedence for most things, even from early sets. Sylvan Library is green draw, and it's 18 years old. Land Tax and other effects like it are plenty white, because it's been a small subtheme of white's since Legends.
I'd argue that the colour pie wasn't very clearly defined in the early days so for some of these effects, the fact that they existed early on doesn't mean much (to me) in terms of whether they belong in a particular colour. I'm also not the arbiter of the colour pie so I'm just trying to interpret it for my own purposes.
In terms of Green card draw, I'd argue that cards like Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Explosive Vegetation, etc. represent Green card draw - i.e. get multiple lands, which is not only acceleration and fixing, but also net card advantage. R&D have also being trying to introduce these Hunter's Insight type of cards as well, but I'm not convinced about them yet.
black really got double punished since they can't do **** about artifacts or enchantments, and since they don't get LD anymore since that's Not A Thing according to modern R&D. black has needed something for a long time, but i won't be holding my breath on them addressing the issue.
I'm not expecting it. But if they decided to give it something new, even something that was previously held by another color, I wouldn't shy away from using it just because it isn't "black". It's the same reason I like the fact that red is getting looting effects now.
..........
@ Amadeus8574: I guess my point was that I don't care about established color pie abilities. If the card's good, I'll be happy to cube with it.
In terms of Green card draw, I'd argue that cards like Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Explosive Vegetation, etc. represent Green card draw - i.e. get multiple lands, which is not only acceleration and fixing, but also net card advantage. R&D have also being trying to introduce these Hunter's Insight type of cards as well, but I'm not convinced about them yet.
i like those cards, and i also like the masked admirers effect, we just need more of them.
I'm not expecting it. But if they decided to give it something new, even something that was previously held by another color, I wouldn't shy away from using it just because it isn't "black". It's the same reason I like the fact that red is getting looting effects now.
i like the "reverse looting" (discard then draw) it looks like they're toying with in red. that is really cool to me because it fits red's tendency for emptying it's hand, allowing it to become effectively draw a card
i like the rise of haste in black cards, though i think they do it to much in green cards now. should be busted out for specialties in green like vengevine
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
@ Amadeus8574: I guess my point was that I don't care about established color pie abilities. If the card's good, I'll be happy to cube with it.
Your point of view is understood. In my frame of reference, your design criteria is the power level of the card. That's a very popular way of evaluating cards for cube. I personally like to add a bit more to the design criteria, including colour pie as well as things like "what does colour X do well".
i'm just curious why others choose something so clearly wrong to me. while I probably did sound pretty judgmental, there is no need for you to bring such venom and vitriol to the tenor.
You did sound pretty judgmental, asking why people were doing things that were obviously wrong and blatantly offensive. I'm sorry if my words were too strong but I felt like that post needed to be checked in a tone that mirrored it. Something about fighting fire with fire.
You'll find the answer to your question if you do some introspection to determine why you dislike cards like Harmonize. Off the top of my head, I'd assume that you're a rigid thinker with preconceived notions about the colour pie and have a hard time seeing that there is more than one way to skin a cat. You've already reached a conclusion about what Magic "should be" and now you wish that these damn kids would get off your lawn. With respect to why I think this particular instance of colour bleed is ok, Green is reflective and has an inner focus, in a naturally meditative sort of way, which jives with drawing cards. Blue's card draw comes from research and the obtaining of information. Both of these philosophies can be expressed through the mechanic of card draw and it just so happens that 2CC --> draw 3 cards is a fair cost at both points. It doesn't bother you that green has Grizzly Bears while white has Fresh Volunteers, does it?
this is appeal to authority. Wizards makes the decision, that doesn't make them the objective voice of truth either, just a more powerful voice. (until Cube came along that is)
The magic card is the fundamental building block of the cube. I don't really think its an appeal to authority to say that people include magic cards in their cubes because they are magic cards. While there's obviously no hard rule against custom cards and some fringe lists do include such things, cubes generally contain real magic cards that saw print and are strong enough to fit into the environment. Incidentally, how many custom cards are you running?
i like the "reverse looting" (discard then draw) it looks like they're toying with in red. that is really cool to me because it fits red's tendency for emptying it's hand, allowing it to become effectively draw a card
You did sound pretty judgmental, asking why people were doing things that were obviously wrong and blatantly offensive. I'm sorry if my words were too strong but I felt like that post needed to be checked in a tone that mirrored it. Something about fighting fire with fire.
Green is reflective and has an inner focus, in a naturally meditative sort of way, which jives with drawing cards. Blue's card draw comes from research and the obtaining of information. Both of these philosophies can be expressed through the mechanic of card draw
doesn't ring true to me, thus isn't true in my cube. same with this:
Off the top of my head, I'd assume that you're a rigid thinker with preconceived notions about the colour pie and have a hard time seeing that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
rude, imo, but w/e. quite the contrary, i often wish more were being done to change the color pie and put it in balance. since i can no longer look to wizards for this it has to be done by means of selective redundancy and restriction in cube.
You've already reached a conclusion about what Magic "should be" and now you wish that these damn kids would get off your lawn.
no, i really haven't. Cube has opened a whole new world of what it can be, and i'm (we're) only just beginning to chart the potential. if i have grumpy old man vibes it's probably because i have a clear definition of the meta i have crafted and am curious as to how others can come to such disparate end points
no but that has nothing really to do with this except prove my point that we craft through conscious inclusion and exclusion. almost no one would run either of those for some idealogical reason or another, some may even run the bear on those grounds.
Incidentally, how many custom cards are you running?
not one. if i were going to go through the trouble of creating and testing custom cards it would be for a game of my own design. at that point there would be no need to be constrained by the structure of mtg
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
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i like the "reverse looting" (discard then draw) it looks like they're toying with in red. that is really cool to me because it fits red's tendency for emptying it's hand, allowing it to become effectively draw a card
Again, it doesn't work that way. Discarding a card is part of the activation cost. If you don't have a card to discard, you don't get to draw.
Not only do I not have an issue with color bleed, I actually enjoy that some cards in cube are out of character for their respective colors. It's not like it ruins competitive balance, and Psionic Blasting your opponent to death is all sorts of fun.
Again, it doesn't work that way. Discarding a card is part of the activation cost. If you don't have a card to discard, you don't get to draw.
bah, this is all becoming painfully embarrassing how rusty i am.
they should have made it work so you could draw. that's be neat in red, and give it a way to generate card advantage for once.
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"There is no royal road to science, and only those who do not dread the fatiguing climb
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx Cube
Thoughts on Harmonize and its value in Cube? We have new Garruk as another source to draw cards. I think it's still in Cube lists because it's such a unique effect in green. It's a card I've considered cutting from my 500 before but the people I play with think it should stay. I feel fairly neutral about it but with my upcoming AVR updates I feel like it's now the worst card in green. The way my games typically play out with green decks I'd rather drop another sweet 4-drop instead of drawing cards.
Like many older cards I feel like Harmonize's time may have passed in Cubes.
Thoughts?
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I wish there were more reasonable green draw cards in cube, but Harmonize isn't it. I hate saying 'compare the colors', but Concentrate is so far from being cubeable and I believe that it is just as awkward in green. Better to just get value with a million ETB dudes.
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of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
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of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
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Because these things were printed as actual magic cards and some people aren't so arrogant as to presume they are the voice of objective truth in determining what certain colours should and should not be able to do?
e: also, this:
is appeal to authority. Wizards makes the decision, that doesn't make them the objective voice of truth either, just a more powerful voice. (until Cube came along that is)
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
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My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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Some dream cards could be gratuitous color bleed, which I could see someone having a problem with, but I don't care; I'd run it anyways.
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black really got double punished since they can't do **** about artifacts or enchantments, and since they don't get LD anymore since that's Not A Thing according to modern R&D. black has needed something for a long time, but i won't be holding my breath on them addressing the issue.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
I'd argue that the colour pie wasn't very clearly defined in the early days so for some of these effects, the fact that they existed early on doesn't mean much (to me) in terms of whether they belong in a particular colour. I'm also not the arbiter of the colour pie so I'm just trying to interpret it for my own purposes.
In terms of Green card draw, I'd argue that cards like Cultivate, Kodama's Reach, Explosive Vegetation, etc. represent Green card draw - i.e. get multiple lands, which is not only acceleration and fixing, but also net card advantage. R&D have also being trying to introduce these Hunter's Insight type of cards as well, but I'm not convinced about them yet.
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I'm not expecting it. But if they decided to give it something new, even something that was previously held by another color, I wouldn't shy away from using it just because it isn't "black". It's the same reason I like the fact that red is getting looting effects now.
..........
@ Amadeus8574: I guess my point was that I don't care about established color pie abilities. If the card's good, I'll be happy to cube with it.
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i like those cards, and i also like the masked admirers effect, we just need more of them.
i like the "reverse looting" (discard then draw) it looks like they're toying with in red. that is really cool to me because it fits red's tendency for emptying it's hand, allowing it to become effectively draw a card
i like the rise of haste in black cards, though i think they do it to much in green cards now. should be busted out for specialties in green like vengevine
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Your point of view is understood. In my frame of reference, your design criteria is the power level of the card. That's a very popular way of evaluating cards for cube. I personally like to add a bit more to the design criteria, including colour pie as well as things like "what does colour X do well".
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You did sound pretty judgmental, asking why people were doing things that were obviously wrong and blatantly offensive. I'm sorry if my words were too strong but I felt like that post needed to be checked in a tone that mirrored it. Something about fighting fire with fire.
You'll find the answer to your question if you do some introspection to determine why you dislike cards like Harmonize. Off the top of my head, I'd assume that you're a rigid thinker with preconceived notions about the colour pie and have a hard time seeing that there is more than one way to skin a cat. You've already reached a conclusion about what Magic "should be" and now you wish that these damn kids would get off your lawn. With respect to why I think this particular instance of colour bleed is ok, Green is reflective and has an inner focus, in a naturally meditative sort of way, which jives with drawing cards. Blue's card draw comes from research and the obtaining of information. Both of these philosophies can be expressed through the mechanic of card draw and it just so happens that 2CC --> draw 3 cards is a fair cost at both points. It doesn't bother you that green has Grizzly Bears while white has Fresh Volunteers, does it?
The magic card is the fundamental building block of the cube. I don't really think its an appeal to authority to say that people include magic cards in their cubes because they are magic cards. While there's obviously no hard rule against custom cards and some fringe lists do include such things, cubes generally contain real magic cards that saw print and are strong enough to fit into the environment. Incidentally, how many custom cards are you running?
To add to the list of precedents you already gave, this isn't a completely new thing for red, per Wheel of Fortune.
I can't believe this didn't occur to me!
whatevs, no hard feelings
mainly it's because this:
doesn't ring true to me, thus isn't true in my cube. same with this:
again, because in my world (cube, w/e) green cannot just pay mana and straight up draw at any price, let alone a parallel rate of blue
rude, imo, but w/e. quite the contrary, i often wish more were being done to change the color pie and put it in balance. since i can no longer look to wizards for this it has to be done by means of selective redundancy and restriction in cube.
no, i really haven't. Cube has opened a whole new world of what it can be, and i'm (we're) only just beginning to chart the potential. if i have grumpy old man vibes it's probably because i have a clear definition of the meta i have crafted and am curious as to how others can come to such disparate end points
no but that has nothing really to do with this except prove my point that we craft through conscious inclusion and exclusion. almost no one would run either of those for some idealogical reason or another, some may even run the bear on those grounds.
not one. if i were going to go through the trouble of creating and testing custom cards it would be for a game of my own design. at that point there would be no need to be constrained by the structure of mtg
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
-Karl Heinrich Marx
Cube
Again, it doesn't work that way. Discarding a card is part of the activation cost. If you don't have a card to discard, you don't get to draw.
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bah, this is all becoming painfully embarrassing how rusty i am.
they should have made it work so you could draw. that's be neat in red, and give it a way to generate card advantage for once.
of its steep paths have a chance of gaining its luminous summits"
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450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.