I have been playing too much TOR and not enough cube, but I did try to search the forums quickly for some kind of consensus quickly about Delver of Secrets. While cubing at the moment is kind of rare for me I am still working on an update with the new set and read every post on the DKA thread. Few minor organizational changes coming, standard additions etc.
From the little that I searched the general consensus is that Delver is too inconsistent but that's all I got from skimming. Has anyone tried Delver of Secrets in their cubes? Blue is the tight as always so it would be bad enough to fit it in... If a color combination would naturally be built to flip it, that would obviously be blue. I can always give it a go since a few people around here keep asking.
To give you an idea of Devler numbers, the constructed Delver decks range from 33-50% spells that can flip him. That translates into 13-20 spells in your Cube decks, which only leaves about 5-8 creature slots open in your aggressive blue deck. That doesn't seem like nearly enough.
Traditional blue sections aren't going to want Delver. If I pushed blue aggro, I'd give him a shot. However, I feel like he just wouldn't be worth the effort.
We're currently in the testing phases for Delver. It seems to be pretty good so far. If your deck has a lot of equipment, he doesn't feel as bad as a 1/1. We'll see how he pans out.
We're currently in the testing phases for Delver. It seems to be pretty good so far. If your deck has a lot of equipment, he doesn't feel as bad as a 1/1. We'll see how he pans out.
I think your Cube has the highest chance of success for Delver, to be honest.
I think it's extremely difficult to draft a competitive cube deck in which Delver of Secrets is a good card. Midrange & control decks don't want cheap beaters. Tempo decks don't want to play with the high number of spells required to give Delver good enough odds to transform.
It's unfortunate, because the card has great flavor. I really wish they'd made the transform trigger something more compatible with tempo decks.
I tried him in my cube as I push blue tempo quite a bit. He was slightly underwhelming in the U/W or U/G tempo builds as there just tended to be too many creatures to reliably flip it. The other thing that hurt him in those archetypes is that those decks really like equipments and enchantments (removal in White, and green has cards like Rancor, Slyvan Library, and Survival) lowering the # of cards that flipped it even further.
That said in U/R counter-burn delver tended to be one of the top cards in the deck. In a counter-burn shell it flipped very reliably and gave the deck a clock. Few cards in the entire Cube were better in that deck than delver.
Overall I felt that delver wasn't quite good enough for my cube but it was reasonably close, and Delver will stay on my list of borderline cards for the foreseeable future.
I've said it before, I love Delver more than I probably should, but no matter what you're paying a tiny investment for quite a big reward. How long it takes for you to receive that reward can vary from game to game, but eventually (barring the game ending or playing a deck with no instants or sorceries) it will get big.
In an aggressive deck, the 1/1 body can be somewhat improved by equipment, but what it really does is give the opponent a nasty decision. Do I use the removal on the Delver or the Jackal Pup (or insert aggro creature)? The Pup is more dangerous now, but any turn that Delver could be a much bigger problem.
And I'll echo what Grapefruit said about counterburn, he's awesome!
He's staying in my cube for now, at least as long as I keep a blue aggo/tempo package in the cube. But take it with a grain of salt, I know I like the card more than I probably should. It's just too awesome!
With 6-8 drafters you may see the counterburn deck enough for Delver to be good. I tested Delver--we mostly were doing winston and it just didn't flip often enough.
Sounds good thanks for the input, I will be adding in Delver for at least a bit in the next update. At the very least people around here want to cube with him which is good enough for me.
I'm putting it in my DKA expansion, but that expansion is going to bring my cube to 510 cards, and I deliberately leave out certain blue cards (such as recall and time walk) as its already the most powerful color by far, so I have more space for cards like Delver than a fully powered 360.
Saying that you leave out Ancestrall Recall and Time Walk out of blue because it is "already poweful" sounds like saying me that I should not wear cleavages because I already have a large rack.
This is true, but in this case, you also have to take into that you want people to notice your nice butt as well. So in order for people to appreciate all your curves you tone some of them down.
I don't agree, I'm all for cleavage, or in this case, powerful cards.
I think its still lacking a few more playable cards as an archetype, but as someone who is also actively looking to make this a thing, I'm excited we are slowly eeking towards it
It looks like R/U might be getting even more "spells matter" tools at their disposal in M14. The prospects for that deck as a cube archetype are looking up.
It looks like R/U might be getting even more "spells matter" tools at their disposal in M14. The prospects for that deck as a cube archetype are looking up.
Delver is not a great cube card. Delver's performance in constructed highly skews what happens with cube, as those decks are able to run way less lands then any cube deck could. You end up running into these situations:
-You have enough instants/sorceries, but not enough other threats and you can't end games.
-You have enough other threats, but delver never flips because you don't have enough sorceries/instants
-You flip an endless stream of lands.
-You flip delver and he dies because your deck is not full of free counters and Delver dies to almost everything
-Delver stays a 1/1.
Delver has just been awful in cube in every deck I've seen it in, if it's not just chilling in SBs. Even in the spells matters decks that are showing up the prowess guys make it so you rely less on instants/sorceries, so those decks don't always go great as well. Recently I played against a guy who played t1 delver on the play on XMage and he whiffed like 8-10 turns in a row; it's a small sample size, but it's what I see happen often.
Delver is performing better than I expected it to in this format. It's not a card for small cubes, but decks that focus on instant/sorcery triggers, or UR/UB tempo builds with a lot of spells have been happily maindecking Delver and having solid success with it.
Highly surprised to see my name show up, apparently made this thread... Only visit like once a month too.
But to add a comment, Delver is still too inconsistent in a 540. Probably find in a 360, but with a 360 you arguably cannot run it because you have better things to be doing that are more consistent.
What is the current status on this one? For reference I am at 480 cards, powered. I can't decide whether just to get rid of it. It feels like it is forcing people to make a deck that isn't really viable or optimal.
What is the current status on this one? For reference I am at 480 cards, powered. I can't decide whether just to get rid of it. It feels like it is forcing people to make a deck that isn't really viable or optimal.
This is why I cut it long ago. It's a bit too inconsistent in cube, and therefore no one wanted to play it. Had no shortage of replacements being a blue card.
If you look at a lot of constructed delver lists they often have so many cantrips and free counters and disruption, way higher of a percentage than a cube list could ever run. This is important for the strength of the card, as the cantrips often help keep the top organized and the free counters make it so you aren't just dying to t1 Fatal Pushes or Bolts.
In cube, that means you're going to need a deck with the same (or close to the same) % of spells to flip Delver consistently, but that just doesn't end up being that great of a deck in practice. You really can't afford your Delver dying when most of your deck is instants and sorceries, and you really can't afford to run delver if most of your deck's spells aren't instants or sorceries.
Someone has probably done the math on the # you would need to run in a deck to consistently flip, and it's probably not consistently achievable.
I've been much happier with my blue section since cutting Delver. In addition to everything Salmo said, another thing that separates Delver's strength in Constructed vs. Cube is constructed decks will run 4x of Delver, where cube you only get one. That's big because not only is Delver better when you can somewhat consistently play it turn 1, but also if you miss on the first flip, you may be able to play a second or third Delver on turn 2, and flip all of them together, which makes up for the missed flip.
yeah, I don't think delver has a home in cube under normal circumstances. Even if you heavily support the spells matter theme it is to inconsistent. you can see the same pattern in that he is a house in legacy, but even in modern it's not tier 1 any more, and probably won't be for long time until a replacement of gitaxian probe comes a long, or it's un-banned
I have been playing too much TOR and not enough cube, but I did try to search the forums quickly for some kind of consensus quickly about Delver of Secrets. While cubing at the moment is kind of rare for me I am still working on an update with the new set and read every post on the DKA thread. Few minor organizational changes coming, standard additions etc.
From the little that I searched the general consensus is that Delver is too inconsistent but that's all I got from skimming. Has anyone tried Delver of Secrets in their cubes? Blue is the tight as always so it would be bad enough to fit it in... If a color combination would naturally be built to flip it, that would obviously be blue. I can always give it a go since a few people around here keep asking.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
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It's unfortunate, because the card has great flavor. I really wish they'd made the transform trigger something more compatible with tempo decks.
That said in U/R counter-burn delver tended to be one of the top cards in the deck. In a counter-burn shell it flipped very reliably and gave the deck a clock. Few cards in the entire Cube were better in that deck than delver.
Overall I felt that delver wasn't quite good enough for my cube but it was reasonably close, and Delver will stay on my list of borderline cards for the foreseeable future.
In an aggressive deck, the 1/1 body can be somewhat improved by equipment, but what it really does is give the opponent a nasty decision. Do I use the removal on the Delver or the Jackal Pup (or insert aggro creature)? The Pup is more dangerous now, but any turn that Delver could be a much bigger problem.
And I'll echo what Grapefruit said about counterburn, he's awesome!
He's staying in my cube for now, at least as long as I keep a blue aggo/tempo package in the cube. But take it with a grain of salt, I know I like the card more than I probably should. It's just too awesome!
-rexx
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This is true, but in this case, you also have to take into that you want people to notice your nice butt as well. So in order for people to appreciate all your curves you tone some of them down.
I don't agree, I'm all for cleavage, or in this case, powerful cards.
Are you kidding? That post had Nof written all over it.
Funny thing is, first I read over the word 'cleavages' as a typo. Then I thought, wait a minute... a woman actually can have 2 cleavages.
A toast... to Nof, the most on-curve cube forum dweller!
...
Ok, I'm done now.
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That deck isn't terrible already, and while I'm not a fan of Delver or Talran, I do have a very big soft spot for good old Guttersnipe.
-You have enough instants/sorceries, but not enough other threats and you can't end games.
-You have enough other threats, but delver never flips because you don't have enough sorceries/instants
-You flip an endless stream of lands.
-You flip delver and he dies because your deck is not full of free counters and Delver dies to almost everything
-Delver stays a 1/1.
Delver has just been awful in cube in every deck I've seen it in, if it's not just chilling in SBs. Even in the spells matters decks that are showing up the prowess guys make it so you rely less on instants/sorceries, so those decks don't always go great as well. Recently I played against a guy who played t1 delver on the play on XMage and he whiffed like 8-10 turns in a row; it's a small sample size, but it's what I see happen often.
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But to add a comment, Delver is still too inconsistent in a 540. Probably find in a 360, but with a 360 you arguably cannot run it because you have better things to be doing that are more consistent.
Chimaera's 540 Card Depowered Cube
This is why I cut it long ago. It's a bit too inconsistent in cube, and therefore no one wanted to play it. Had no shortage of replacements being a blue card.
If you look at a lot of constructed delver lists they often have so many cantrips and free counters and disruption, way higher of a percentage than a cube list could ever run. This is important for the strength of the card, as the cantrips often help keep the top organized and the free counters make it so you aren't just dying to t1 Fatal Pushes or Bolts.
In cube, that means you're going to need a deck with the same (or close to the same) % of spells to flip Delver consistently, but that just doesn't end up being that great of a deck in practice. You really can't afford your Delver dying when most of your deck is instants and sorceries, and you really can't afford to run delver if most of your deck's spells aren't instants or sorceries.
Someone has probably done the math on the # you would need to run in a deck to consistently flip, and it's probably not consistently achievable.
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