It sure does render a lot of cube creatures pretty worthless, and the Flash may just net you a card if you can use it to counter an ETB trigger at the same time. It would go in an aggro shell that doesn't use ETB dudes and the effect will be pretty asymmetrical.
I think this is comparable in power level to Aven Mindcensor.
Either you play it on curve, which allows your opponent to play around it and leaving you with a subpar threat for your efforts, or you leave three mana for it, leading to serious tempo loss.
Most creatures with ETB effects in Cube have some value even without their ETB effect (esp. Titans).
While it's true they still get a body, I think it neuters most ETB creatures to the point of near unplayability. And unlike the Mindcensor, the Gryff hits a huge number of targets in the cube.
I don't think it's spectacular or anything, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant discussion.
Seems good for a WU tempo deck that will be leaving mana up a lot of the time anyways. But in other decks, it can be awkward to pass with the intent of "countering" a trigger.
I like this card! I was hoping for a Torpor Orb on a two mana guy, but this is nice too. I think I will pass on it for my own cube as white's three drops are just too tight, but the number of good ETB creatures make this a playable effect for a Pestermite body. It is also nice for aggro against midrange as an answer to something like a Skinrender or Nekrataal, or any token-producing four or five drops while beating down. I think often the correct play will be dropping it at EoT anyway, even if the opponent didn't play his ETB dude; it prevents their effect in subsequent turns while beating for two straight away.
I'm on the fence. In my cube, it stops the abilities of 7 of white's 23 creatures. That's a downer. Plus, white aggro's enemy isn't really ETB creatures. It does hose most of blue's creatures, all of black's high-end creatures, many of red's best creatures, a few of green's creatures, and some of the guilded creatures. Maybe it's worth it based on how powerful it is against U/B/R decks?
EDIT: I'm speaking from the standpoint of my small 300-card cube.
It looks like a super anti-midrange card against any colour decks, to me. Which is good for aggro/tempo. Not so great against control but I guess it's a 2 power flyer who will give you the opportunity to 1-for-1 their Titan or whatever, not the worst thing ever. At 3/1 I'd be all over this thing, as it is I'm on the fence leaning towards no.
This affects about a third of the creatures in each color of my cube, including 11 out of the 36 creatures in my white section. This puts it at cross purposes with the rest of the section, so I don't think I'd want this in my cube unless I were to move away from the blink archetype that so much of my white section supports right now.
It's a shame, because I think this is a really cool and powerful card.
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Cool card, but seems tough to "break" in cube, and you might be falling into the "Oath of Druids" trap (lowering your decks power level to support one card). I could see it finding a home in white weenie maybe? Splashing into red aggro?
This card could actually be interesting. Midrange and control decks often use creatures with strong etb triggers. In aggro decks - and especially white ones - the number of cheap creatures with etb triggers is actually quite low. This means that it will usually reduce the value of more creatures in opposing decks than in your own deck. I don't think that this is strong enough for smaller cubes (especially with only 1 toughness), but at 600, I might give it a try.
I think this is better then people are giving credit for. It shuts down a ton of creatures, even in white, but it extremely flexible in terms of when you play it. You don't have to cast it on t3 and hose yourself - that is why it has flash. You can play your cards getting the triggers until something comes up that you can't deal with. Responding to Natural Order for Hornet Queen by playing this will be worth turning off your Wall of Omens you have stuck in your hand. (Or even Sun Titan.) Sure that is the best case, but hitting any Titan with it is pretty amazing, or a Thragtusk, or a Sundering Titan. There are just so many huge triggers - most of which are not in white.
In my cube there are 9 ETB triggers in White, only 2 of which are often game-altering (Sun Titan, Stoneforge Mystic). Of course Stoneforge is extremely cheap, so can often be played before you need to respond to a major trigger. Sun Titan will often be screwed significantly, but even there will still trigger when it attacks. Other cards do become really bad when this is in play (looking at you Wall of Omens and Silverblade Paladin). I am willing to harm my own wall to respond to a Hornet Queen, or even Nekrataal.
So I think it is testable. I do not think it is anywhere near an auto include for 450, let alone 360. But certainly seems like some solid testing time would go a long way to understanding a very interesting card.
@flutterguy: I agree that he doesn't have to be played on T3, but sitting around with three mana up every turn, waiting to not-quite-counter a Titan or some such seems like a poor plan as well.
Responding to Natural Order for Hornet Queen by playing this will be worth turning off your Wall of Omens you have stuck in your hand.
I don't think this actually works, because you have to respond to the natural order and they will just choose a creature without an ETB trigger. The creature is chosen and enters the battlefield all as part of the resolution of natural order, so by the time you get a chance to respond after natural order resolves the creature is already in play and the ETB trigger is on the stack, and this doesn't counter triggers already on the stack it just prevents any more from going on the stack (in the same way silence doesn't counter spells.) So it's bad against stuff like natural order, but good against reanimator spells because those target when they are cast so you can respond.
Titans are still pretty darn good even without their trigger going off on etb. This guy counter a lot of cards, but titans are more like a cute roadblock then something you should wait to prevent from happening.
There's nothing I would want to drop for this. It seems like a fragile creature that does nothing a lot of the time. I don't like situational creatures in Cube. I want instant value or efficiency.
I think it's worth testing and could secretly be amazing, but skeptical it's good enough.
1) whites 3 drops are stacked with high quality creatures
2) you probably only want him in agro since he will hose your etb effects too (midrange has most etb effects)
I guess could also be used as a sideboard card in control
Playing this like counterspell really doesn't sound like a good plan. It's conditional (only ETB-creates) and partial (only counters the effect, not the body). That isn't worth keeping 3 mana open. In that mode it's much worse than Essence Scatter.
I think you'd drop this right away and use it as a (sub-par) beater, while hoping it hoses a card or two on their hand. Not sure if his stats are good enough.
I have been running it for a few months in a powered 450. It has seen a bit of play, but mostly from the sideboard against combo, ramp and reanimator decks relying heavily on etb effects.
Anyone have any testing results on this guy? This thread sounds mostly like theory-crafting...
He was ok; ended up being more of a silver bullet against ETB decks and whatnot and lost out to better cards like Hallowed Spiritkeeper, which likely closed the door for many (at least with smaller-ish cubes.)
It sure does render a lot of cube creatures pretty worthless, and the Flash may just net you a card if you can use it to counter an ETB trigger at the same time. It would go in an aggro shell that doesn't use ETB dudes and the effect will be pretty asymmetrical.
Thoughts?
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Either you play it on curve, which allows your opponent to play around it and leaving you with a subpar threat for your efforts, or you leave three mana for it, leading to serious tempo loss.
Most creatures with ETB effects in Cube have some value even without their ETB effect (esp. Titans).
I won't run it.
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I don't think it's spectacular or anything, but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant discussion.
Seems good for a WU tempo deck that will be leaving mana up a lot of the time anyways. But in other decks, it can be awkward to pass with the intent of "countering" a trigger.
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EDIT: I'm speaking from the standpoint of my small 300-card cube.
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It's a shame, because I think this is a really cool and powerful card.
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This card could actually be interesting. Midrange and control decks often use creatures with strong etb triggers. In aggro decks - and especially white ones - the number of cheap creatures with etb triggers is actually quite low. This means that it will usually reduce the value of more creatures in opposing decks than in your own deck. I don't think that this is strong enough for smaller cubes (especially with only 1 toughness), but at 600, I might give it a try.
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skyknights riding one and he's a 3/1.
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In my cube there are 9 ETB triggers in White, only 2 of which are often game-altering (Sun Titan, Stoneforge Mystic). Of course Stoneforge is extremely cheap, so can often be played before you need to respond to a major trigger. Sun Titan will often be screwed significantly, but even there will still trigger when it attacks. Other cards do become really bad when this is in play (looking at you Wall of Omens and Silverblade Paladin). I am willing to harm my own wall to respond to a Hornet Queen, or even Nekrataal.
So I think it is testable. I do not think it is anywhere near an auto include for 450, let alone 360. But certainly seems like some solid testing time would go a long way to understanding a very interesting card.
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I don't think this actually works, because you have to respond to the natural order and they will just choose a creature without an ETB trigger. The creature is chosen and enters the battlefield all as part of the resolution of natural order, so by the time you get a chance to respond after natural order resolves the creature is already in play and the ETB trigger is on the stack, and this doesn't counter triggers already on the stack it just prevents any more from going on the stack (in the same way silence doesn't counter spells.) So it's bad against stuff like natural order, but good against reanimator spells because those target when they are cast so you can respond.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
thats my cube
1) whites 3 drops are stacked with high quality creatures
2) you probably only want him in agro since he will hose your etb effects too (midrange has most etb effects)
I guess could also be used as a sideboard card in control
Love love the card
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I think you'd drop this right away and use it as a (sub-par) beater, while hoping it hoses a card or two on their hand. Not sure if his stats are good enough.
He was ok; ended up being more of a silver bullet against ETB decks and whatnot and lost out to better cards like Hallowed Spiritkeeper, which likely closed the door for many (at least with smaller-ish cubes.)
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