Whenever you draw a card, put a +1/+1 counter on Chasm Skulker.
When Chasm Skulker dies, put X 1/1 blue Squid creature tokens with islandwalk onto the battlefield, where X is the number of +1/+1 counters on Chasm Skulker.
Would this guy be playable at all or is my initial gut reaction of him being too slow correct?
Wow, that's so weird. I was positive there was a thread on this card already. I'm sure we've discussed it at length somewhere.
I think you're right, as I also remember a discussion about this card. Maybe it got accidentally purged along with all the conspiracy stuff? It was one of the DOTP cards, so it got spoiled awhile before conspiracy dropped.
I'm pretty sure it got purged with the conspiracy stuff. I loved him, most responses were he was too slow and doesn't pass the vindicate test(and plenty of people saying exile was too plentiful to count on his death trigger).
I've tested him and its pretty hard not to have a drawspell in hand so if he survives to your turn he can be a 5/5 or 6/6 beater that provides value if killed. He fits well in tempo or control decks, which makes him better in my opinion then something like wake thrasher as well as his additional resiliency. He has some insane synergies with things like sylvan library. You really don't notice how much card draw you have in cube until you play this guy. Burn blanks against this guy simply because holding one mana untapped means he could get a permanent giant growth effect.
He is leagues better then Lorescale coatl(which I don't run or see run, but he was compared to in his old SCD) because of his death trigger and relatively easy casting cost.
I tried to summarize most of his negatives from the old SCD with my experiences to the contrary, but I'm biased, I love the card in cube.
1. Fact or Fiction with pretty much anything in play is great.
2. Chasm Skulker and Fact or Fiction don't work the way you think they do.
For me this card is about five years too late to the party and doesn't even compare that favorably to Wake Thrasher. In a slower cube this guy might gain some traction, but for tempo decks, why wouldn't you favor the creature that is always going to be at least a 4/4 for 3?
I think it has more value outside of tempo than Thrasher does though. It only takes a couple of turns (or 1 draw spell) to make this guy pretty nasty in terms of power and guaranteed value. I'm considering testing it in the cube as an extra dude for both tempo decks and blue midrange decks. Seems like it could be fun in an Opposition build or any blue deck with repeatable draw effects or draw 7 spells. And the islandwalk on the tokens is always relevant, because all the best decks have blue in them.
He didn't originally appeal to me, but the more I think about it, the better I think it might be. I think it's just going to be dependent on the number of draw spells in the deck. It'll grow (slowly) on its own, but with just one draw spell, it gets really scary, really fast. May have to be tested to see how good it is.
All it needs is a draw spell to make it a scary threat that potentially will make many small threats. I think it's likely a easy include for most cubes if you have a few draw 7s.
Looks like all the colors now have a 3cmc dude that produces tokens, except green! (Brimaz, Goblin Rabblemaster, Ophiomancer, and Chasm Stalker)
And that's leaving out about 10 cantrips that give this card "only" a single +1/+1 counter once.
Since the worst case scenarios are a) this guy trades with a cheaper or equally costed counter or removal spell (not great but acceptable) and b) this guy comes into play, gets a counter during the next turn, attacks and trades with an X/2, leaving behind a 1/1 (unimpressive but not terrible), I think this is Cube-worthy.
I love Wake Trasher more than most, but I think this is better.
An important question will be if this is better than Serendib Efreet. Opinions on that?
My problem with this card is that blue has sooo many good 3-drops. It is hard to make room for this guy. If only it were a 0/1 for 1U... that would be a definite inclusion for me. Or maybe I should just try it over Fettergeist?
I actually quite like this card. He's a pretty cool card for a number of archetypes including control, where he can sneak out early or with counter back up, and start accumulating +1/+1 counters. Then if he dies, Squid buddies. For aggro, look to your Brainstorms and Draw Sevens to get the job done. It's lastly very splashable.
The fact that the tokens have Islandwalk is also not irrelevant. Blue is a very common splash colour and these could be unblockable a fair amount of the time in our Winston environment, even if I'm in blue myself...
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
Ignoring your opponent and yourself playing or doing anything, this card is only worse then fettergeist for 1 turn, and it has a huge upside. That would probably be where I test the card.
Doesn't fly is the big problem with replacing geist or serendib. Otherwise it would be a nice switch out. And the bug butt on thsoe flyers when you play them turn 3 makes them great on defense early before you turn the corner to attack.
Too slow... for some.
Is it just me, or is this thing going to be all kinds of wacked-out bonkers in Multiplayer and EDH cubes?
Works with +1/+1 counters, acts as more of a combat deterrent the bigger it gets... I suspect this is going straight into my cube (provided it doesn't wind up $20+ a copy or something). This + Rhystic Study alone is one hell of a play.
After loads of testing in 360 8 man drafts, this card is nowhere near the chopping block. This may be due to really good draw existing at my size, but there are multiple cards that give this 3 +1+1 counters for U which is huge. The last game he saw play in he was a 6/6 turn four and won the game single handedly. The drafter was vocal in game about hoping for it to get removed so he could summon his "squid squad" and vocal after that the card should never be removed from the cube. This card is an early clock for control and a finisher for tempo decks, its amazing.
I'm going to go to a couple cards that have just been stellar in the last year or so that never really got any discussion after their initial placement in the cube, because I feel like a few allstars have slipped through the cracks in some cubes.(this, Ugin despite his mana cost, etc.)
I've loved this card ever since, on MTGO cube, I cast a turn 2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest off of a turn 1 Llanowar Elves, then I cast Chasm Skulker on turn 3 and attacked with both of my elves, drawing two cards.
Chasm Skulker is alright. It's one of those cards that I'd be fine to play with and have run him in many MTGO decks since he can do powerful things, but I've also watched him die to everything and been unimpressed if I can't draw more than one card while he's out there. But at the same time, I would never question him *not* being in a cube and see him being easily replaced as they continue to print cards that are good. When he's great he's the bomb, but he can take a while to get going and there are a lot of match ups where you can't afford to have your threats be snowballs rolling down the hill.
If you support blue devotion, Master of Waves can be very powerful and obviously pretty busted with Opposition, but I wouldn't run it without the UU package. That's probably the only blue token producing card I would consider other than Meloku.
I think Master of Waves don't need Coralhelm Commander, Frostburn Weird or any other UU to be good. He is absolutely solid on his own and starts becoming a bomb with any other Blue Mana on the board. But he don't always have to be. Just getting two 2/1 creatures on the board for 4 mana, while having the possibilty of making more, is quite nice. And like you said, with Opposition, he's just insane.
In fact, like I mentioned before, I see him more like a 4/2 P/T split in 2 body than can get more if you already have something out there. When it happens, he provides a lot of blocker and sometimes even enough to make them go on offense. But otherwise, he is not that offensive in cube and will never reach the level he was having in Standard for that matter.
I am pretty happy with Chasm Skulker's performance. It's a lot of fun and it accrues value very fast with any sort of card draw, and it can become the biggest thing in play very quickly. It's hard to deal with outside of popping it and dealing with a load of tokens. The ceiling is high enough that it warrants the odd time when it is dealt with immediately for no additional value, but even then losing a 3 drop for a 1-to-1 removal is not the end of the world.
I liked it enough the two times I drafted it in the legacy cube. Was nothing awe inspiring , but a solid creature. I'd play him in 450+ unpowered range, but wouldn't castrate someone for play him in a lower cube.
The lower the cube size the higher the ratio of exile effects to doom blade effects, making him worse. Plus blue is ultra stacked. I value cantrips and medicore counter spells more than most , so the bottom 10 blue cards in my cube I likely evaluate different than others. Eg I'd rather play negate or gitaxian probe than chasm skulker.
It's a solid card with an acceptable "generic" power level, it does pretty absurd things once in a while, and it adds some support for a couple of archetypes. It can also be very underwhelming in some contexts.
It won't (or shouldn't) make any small-to-medium lists if you evaluate purely on a power level basis, but if you don't, or your list is large, and you like the card, you should absolutely not feel ashamed for running it.
Creature - Squid Horror
Whenever you draw a card, put a +1/+1 counter on Chasm Skulker.
When Chasm Skulker dies, put X 1/1 blue Squid creature tokens with islandwalk onto the battlefield, where X is the number of +1/+1 counters on Chasm Skulker.
Would this guy be playable at all or is my initial gut reaction of him being too slow correct?
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I think you're right, as I also remember a discussion about this card. Maybe it got accidentally purged along with all the conspiracy stuff? It was one of the DOTP cards, so it got spoiled awhile before conspiracy dropped.
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I've tested him and its pretty hard not to have a drawspell in hand so if he survives to your turn he can be a 5/5 or 6/6 beater that provides value if killed. He fits well in tempo or control decks, which makes him better in my opinion then something like wake thrasher as well as his additional resiliency. He has some insane synergies with things like sylvan library. You really don't notice how much card draw you have in cube until you play this guy. Burn blanks against this guy simply because holding one mana untapped means he could get a permanent giant growth effect.
He is leagues better then Lorescale coatl(which I don't run or see run, but he was compared to in his old SCD) because of his death trigger and relatively easy casting cost.
I tried to summarize most of his negatives from the old SCD with my experiences to the contrary, but I'm biased, I love the card in cube.
thats my cube
1. Fact or Fiction with pretty much anything in play is great.
2. Chasm Skulker and Fact or Fiction don't work the way you think they do.
For me this card is about five years too late to the party and doesn't even compare that favorably to Wake Thrasher. In a slower cube this guy might gain some traction, but for tempo decks, why wouldn't you favor the creature that is always going to be at least a 4/4 for 3?
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He didn't originally appeal to me, but the more I think about it, the better I think it might be. I think it's just going to be dependent on the number of draw spells in the deck. It'll grow (slowly) on its own, but with just one draw spell, it gets really scary, really fast. May have to be tested to see how good it is.
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Looks like all the colors now have a 3cmc dude that produces tokens, except green! (Brimaz, Goblin Rabblemaster, Ophiomancer, and Chasm Stalker)
Mono Blue: Enclave Cryptologist, Looter il-Kor, Mulldrifter, Consecrated Sphinx, Jace Beleren, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm, Thirst for Knowledge, Timetwister, Deep Analysis, Time Spiral (HM: Opposition)
Blue/Red: Faithless Looting, Wheel of Fortune, Izzet Charm, Dack Fayden (HM: Red token support, especially Purphoros, God of the Forge and Goblin Bombardment)
Blue/Green: Garruk, Primal Hunter (kind of), Sylvan Library, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Kiora, the Crashing Wave
Blue/Black: Phyrexian Arena, Griselbrand (technically...), Shadowmage Infiltrator
Artifact: Skullclamp (twice!), Sensei's Diving Top, Sword of Fire and Ice
And that's leaving out about 10 cantrips that give this card "only" a single +1/+1 counter once.
Since the worst case scenarios are a) this guy trades with a cheaper or equally costed counter or removal spell (not great but acceptable) and b) this guy comes into play, gets a counter during the next turn, attacks and trades with an X/2, leaving behind a 1/1 (unimpressive but not terrible), I think this is Cube-worthy.
I love Wake Trasher more than most, but I think this is better.
An important question will be if this is better than Serendib Efreet. Opinions on that?
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My problem with this card is that blue has sooo many good 3-drops. It is hard to make room for this guy. If only it were a 0/1 for 1U... that would be a definite inclusion for me. Or maybe I should just try it over Fettergeist?
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The fact that the tokens have Islandwalk is also not irrelevant. Blue is a very common splash colour and these could be unblockable a fair amount of the time in our Winston environment, even if I'm in blue myself...
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
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Is it just me, or is this thing going to be all kinds of wacked-out bonkers in Multiplayer and EDH cubes?
Works with +1/+1 counters, acts as more of a combat deterrent the bigger it gets... I suspect this is going straight into my cube (provided it doesn't wind up $20+ a copy or something). This + Rhystic Study alone is one hell of a play.
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I'm going to go to a couple cards that have just been stellar in the last year or so that never really got any discussion after their initial placement in the cube, because I feel like a few allstars have slipped through the cracks in some cubes.(this, Ugin despite his mana cost, etc.)
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I think Master of Waves don't need Coralhelm Commander, Frostburn Weird or any other UU to be good. He is absolutely solid on his own and starts becoming a bomb with any other Blue Mana on the board. But he don't always have to be. Just getting two 2/1 creatures on the board for 4 mana, while having the possibilty of making more, is quite nice. And like you said, with Opposition, he's just insane.
In fact, like I mentioned before, I see him more like a 4/2 P/T split in 2 body than can get more if you already have something out there. When it happens, he provides a lot of blocker and sometimes even enough to make them go on offense. But otherwise, he is not that offensive in cube and will never reach the level he was having in Standard for that matter.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
The lower the cube size the higher the ratio of exile effects to doom blade effects, making him worse. Plus blue is ultra stacked. I value cantrips and medicore counter spells more than most , so the bottom 10 blue cards in my cube I likely evaluate different than others. Eg I'd rather play negate or gitaxian probe than chasm skulker.
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It's a solid card with an acceptable "generic" power level, it does pretty absurd things once in a while, and it adds some support for a couple of archetypes. It can also be very underwhelming in some contexts.
It won't (or shouldn't) make any small-to-medium lists if you evaluate purely on a power level basis, but if you don't, or your list is large, and you like the card, you should absolutely not feel ashamed for running it.
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
Side note: There is a second thread discussing the card here and they should proabaly be merged.