No way I'd cut Detention Sphere. It's still one of the three best Azorius cards, and it's not like I was thinking I had too many O-Rings in cube. Not sure what I'm cutting yet (maybe Seal of Cleansing, maybe Eternal Dragon) but it won't effect Azorius.
As for what to cut for this, I've always felt white could use a couple more solid removal spells.
Cube has much less spot removal than constructed formats. Since it's a fairly creature based format this is less than "wanted".
Cutting a premium removal spell to make room for this card seems silly in my eyes, unless you are hell bent on keeping the removal down in white.
I have 2x Path, 2x swords in my cube for this reason, and I haven't been unhappy with the effect on gameplay at all. In fact, I've been very happy with it.
White removal goes in ALL decks playing white, and it's all splashable, so it's 5 removal spells get distributed throughout all white decks in the draft, and often gets hated when a strong card is not available in the pack. So it's pretty typical that a draft deck has 1 MAYBE 2 white removal spells in it's 40.
Consistently having 2 per deck makes for more powerful decks, without making it so creatures that are vulnerable to removal become bad (wolfir silverheart).
Im pretty happy with the ratio I have now, so will be cutting one of my duplicates for this card.
Conclusion: Highly recommend do not cut a removal spell from your cube for this card
So jacked for this card. I spent time looking at it heartbroken because I thought it was an exact functional reprint of O-ring, then I realized it only targets your opponents permanents and a tear of joy ran down the side of my face.
Side note, why would you want to get rid of a like card when they're of the few planeswalker removal options
Ya, now I get to run O-Ring, Sphere AND this card. Just because we get great new removal doesn't mean I want to remove some of the best existing removal to do it...
I get that, and D-Sphere is definitely at a high enough level to justify remaining, but my personal preference is to keep unique effects in the few multicolor spots available. Not counting Colonnade, I currently run Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Geist of St. Traft, and Detention Sphere (in that order), and my playgroup wants to give Venser a try. Now I get to finally give that a shot.
Ya, now I get to run O-Ring, Sphere AND this card. Just because we get great new removal doesn't mean I want to remove some of the best existing removal to do it...
I get that, and D-Sphere is definitely at a high enough level to justify remaining, but my personal preference is to keep unique effects in the few multicolor spots available. Not counting Colonnade, I currently run Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Geist of St. Traft, and Detention Sphere (in that order), and my playgroup wants to give Venser a try. Now I get to finally give that a shot.
Fair, although personally I run Venser over Sphinx's Revelation.
Ya, now I get to run O-Ring, Sphere AND this card. Just because we get great new removal doesn't mean I want to remove some of the best existing removal to do it...
I get that, and D-Sphere is definitely at a high enough level to justify remaining, but my personal preference is to keep unique effects in the few multicolor spots available. Not counting Colonnade, I currently run Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Geist of St. Traft, and Detention Sphere (in that order), and my playgroup wants to give Venser a try. Now I get to finally give that a shot.
Ranked in order of power:
B(ombs)
R(emoval)
E(vasion)
A(ggro)
D(uds)
I'm not sure why on earth you would replace the 2nd best card type in your cube. Look to be trading down, not laterally (and sure as hell not upwards and take out a bomb!). Journey Into Nowhere, Faith's Fetters, Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light and Detention Sphere should all be easily included and have a home. In terms of the Azorious discussion: Sphinx's Revelation is strictly worse than Stroke of Genius - run that and leave the guild open to more powerful cards like Venser and D-Sphere.
To be fair removal in limited is rare, as are true bombs. In cube removal and bombs are plentiful. I know that a couple people(Wtwlf loves them 1 drops) really want to push the numbers of certain groups like Aggro (2nd lowest), because this isn't limited.
The real question is what to cut for this. I'm probably going to take out Journey to Nowhere. It costs more, but I've never seen a deck that would rather have Journey than an O-Ring.
I just think he had it backward. Surely he meant to say "Stoke of Genius is terrible, but similar to Sphix's Revelation, which I will troll, so I don't have to try and fit it in a tight guild section."
I am not currently running it, as I traded it for value older stuff. But after rotation I will pick it up as I feel it is the 4th best UW card and the 3rd most unique feeling.
This is actually a really good point. The only thing Journey has over this is a more aggressive cost. To essentially have 2 oblivion rings for mono-white is tremendous. I for one recall times I have journey in hand and wish I had an answer to a non-land, non-creature permanent. This also balances out equipment like the Swords of X/Y a marginal % more (which I am in favor of).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Ya, now I get to run O-Ring, Sphere AND this card. Just because we get great new removal doesn't mean I want to remove some of the best existing removal to do it...
I get that, and D-Sphere is definitely at a high enough level to justify remaining, but my personal preference is to keep unique effects in the few multicolor spots available. Not counting Colonnade, I currently run Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Geist of St. Traft, and Detention Sphere (in that order), and my playgroup wants to give Venser a try. Now I get to finally give that a shot.
Sphinx's Revelation always comes with additional value, and Supreme Verdict's clause is very relevant for me, given that I support blue tempo with lots of counterspells. On the other hand, tokens aren't a major theme for me, so Detention Sphere is largely just a worse O-Ring. It's a fine line to be sure, and D-Sphere is certainly a fine card to have handy if Venser doesn't pan out.
In white, I think Eternal Dragon is going to finally get the cut from me. I'll miss him, but Venser better fits what my durdly midrange Reveillark decks what to be doing.
I think there are more cards in the cube that Sphere's added ability is relevant against than Verdict's. Even if you don't support a token theme. But even so, Geist, Sphere and Verdict would be my top 3, and I'd cut Revelation for Venser if you wanna try him out.
Honestly from Tennessee's description, I would cut Supreme Verdict. It's really only applicable to blue (the counterspell clause), and it's not like there isn't a list of replacement of wrath effects out there that are all cubeable if he needs to keep his wrath count up. I think the weakest card is Sphinx's Rev, but there no realy effects like that in cube, and I think D-sphere is too powerful in it's versatility to let go (and it's value will go up as PW prevalency goes up).
I think there are more cards in the cube that Sphere's added ability is relevant against than Verdict's. Even if you don't support a token theme. But even so, Geist, Sphere and Verdict would be my top 3, and I'd cut Revelation for Venser if you wanna try him out.
My playgroup and I disagree, and I see Rev first picked on occasion. Perhaps there's some bias from it busting up standard, but it fits very well in both the big mana and control decks, and midrange decks usually maindeck it as well.
I don't get why Detention Sphere is in risk of being cut because a white card was printed. One is UW, one is W, and both are played in every deck that can run those counters. If I drafted O-Ring, D-Sphere, and B-Light for the same deck, chances are all 3 are making the final cut. Non-land permanent removal is just insane in a place where non-land permanents you want to remove are abundant.
If you had to run 4 azorious I would chose not to run verdict and run an additional wrath in the white section.
Simply because venser is so damn cool and Sphinx's revelation is extremly powerful in a powered cube.
There's 2 wrath of gods and terminus as premium sweepers and then there's at least a couple solid 6 mana wraths (austere command is underrated in general imo).
Supreme verdict is better than all of them, but by a very marginal amount, while Sphinx's revelation is a premium azorius finisher that has a fairly unique effect.
I don't get why Detention Sphere is in risk of being cut because a white card was printed. One is UW, one is W, and both are played in every deck that can run those counters. If I drafted O-Ring, D-Sphere, and B-Light for the same deck, chances are all 3 are making the final cut. Non-land permanent removal is just insane in a place where non-land permanents you want to remove are abundant.
Mostly just because there are some very cool cards in UW that I'd like to cube with. That color combo has been very good for me lately, so I want to try some new things with it rather than up the raw answer count with even more removal. It's not a direct swap, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it right now.
I don't get why Detention Sphere is in risk of being cut because a white card was printed. One is UW, one is W, and both are played in every deck that can run those counters. If I drafted O-Ring, D-Sphere, and B-Light for the same deck, chances are all 3 are making the final cut. Non-land permanent removal is just insane in a place where non-land permanents you want to remove are abundant.
Mostly just because there are some very cool cards in UW that I'd like to cube with. That color combo has been very good for me lately, so I want to try some new things with it rather than up the raw answer count with even more removal. It's not a direct swap, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it right now.
Why not seed Venser into future drafts instead of cutting an amazing card in D-Sphere? That way you can keep on playing with known commodities and continually test an unknown one.
The new card make me iffy about adding this card in. The effects are pretty similar and I'm not sure if I want 3 of this effect. Spaces in 360 are after all, very tight. But hey, I would probably end up playing all 3. They all function differently after all.
What I think is happening is that White is splitting even more into two separate camps. Most of its creatures (numerically) are oriented to attack and now its spells (plus some gold cards that are white) are going to be seated even more firmly in the control camp.
A card like Journey to Nowhere--which tries to situate itself in the middle--looks even less attractive. Aggressive decks are lukewarm on it and controlling decks will simply have too many better options unless you are intentionally making the decision to tip the balance in that direction. I also think that quantity and quality will intersect here because Faith's Fetters has been marginal for some time and presents yet another "hard" removal spell that can be countered by enchantment removal (Moat is on the list as well, don't forget, if you play that)
White could previously go in this same direction if it played cards like Condemn and Wall of Reverence, but they seemed to be viewed with some skepticism where Oblivion Rings #37, 38, & 39 apparently are not.
As a parting note, perhaps this could be the turning point where more Cubes start to deemphasize Wraths. Wrath effects are so-so in Limited because you are normally compelled to play creatures yourself and they are suspect in Eternal formats because individual creatures are so good. Cube is a combination of Limited and Eternal..
In particular, (mana) efficiency and powerful/versatile point removal are the two things that overshadow Wraths the most in those formats. And that is what white is getting more and more of. When this recognition/shift happens it seems to me it will be a long overdue update to the understanding of the Cube format.
Overall, I am personally fine with the trend I'm seeing in white but in our Cube white aggro often centers around Cold Snap and Once More With More Feeling, which most Cubes don't allow. Incidentally, Once More With Feeling is much better adapted to the role of finisher than Armageddon because it is just too hard/improbable to generate a commanding board position with Armageddon. A side effect of this--although there are multiple other reasons--is that white aggro decks tend to skew towards heavy (near mono) white.
One last point on the numbers. The Cube database and the associated analytics seems to show exactly what one would expect: an odd mingling of forward looking moves coupled with plenty of muck from outmoded ideas on Cube construction in general and the vector for the color white.
Thus we see advances (at least at smaller cube sizes which is all I can personally speak to) in the diminishing appearances of Kor Sanctifiers along with misfits like Kor Skyfisher and Cloudgoat Ranger (still strongly represented by raw numbers but significantly less played than Baneslayer, Reveillark, Gideon, and Sun Titan).
On the negative side of the ledger we see confusion regarding the second tier of low end attackers -- both in terms of which to choose and how many to play. Aggressive strategies even suffer a bit as it becomes chic to remove the three mana Ajani the *insane* Silverblade Paladin (which at least seems to have supplanted its less accomplished counterpart Soltari Champion). Perhaps some of this is the pull from token cards and Spear of Heliod, leading to decks which are willing to sacrifice oomph for sweep.
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Cube has much less spot removal than constructed formats. Since it's a fairly creature based format this is less than "wanted".
Cutting a premium removal spell to make room for this card seems silly in my eyes, unless you are hell bent on keeping the removal down in white.
I have 2x Path, 2x swords in my cube for this reason, and I haven't been unhappy with the effect on gameplay at all. In fact, I've been very happy with it.
White removal goes in ALL decks playing white, and it's all splashable, so it's 5 removal spells get distributed throughout all white decks in the draft, and often gets hated when a strong card is not available in the pack. So it's pretty typical that a draft deck has 1 MAYBE 2 white removal spells in it's 40.
Consistently having 2 per deck makes for more powerful decks, without making it so creatures that are vulnerable to removal become bad (wolfir silverheart).
Im pretty happy with the ratio I have now, so will be cutting one of my duplicates for this card.
Conclusion: Highly recommend do not cut a removal spell from your cube for this card
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Side note, why would you want to get rid of a like card when they're of the few planeswalker removal options
My 450 Cube
I get that, and D-Sphere is definitely at a high enough level to justify remaining, but my personal preference is to keep unique effects in the few multicolor spots available. Not counting Colonnade, I currently run Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Geist of St. Traft, and Detention Sphere (in that order), and my playgroup wants to give Venser a try. Now I get to finally give that a shot.
Cubetutor Link
Visual Spoiler
Draft!
Though if this is your logic, neither Sphinx's Revelation nor Supreme Verdict are terribly "unique" cards, being a simple Stroke of Genius and Day of Judgment variant respectively.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Ranked in order of power:
B(ombs)
R(emoval)
E(vasion)
A(ggro)
D(uds)
I'm not sure why on earth you would replace the 2nd best card type in your cube. Look to be trading down, not laterally (and sure as hell not upwards and take out a bomb!). Journey Into Nowhere, Faith's Fetters, Oblivion Ring, Banishing Light and Detention Sphere should all be easily included and have a home. In terms of the Azorious discussion: Sphinx's Revelation is strictly worse than Stroke of Genius - run that and leave the guild open to more powerful cards like Venser and D-Sphere.
My 540 Powered CubeTutor Page
thats my cube
I think you misunderstand the use of the term "strictly".
I am not currently running it, as I traded it for value older stuff. But after rotation I will pick it up as I feel it is the 4th best UW card and the 3rd most unique feeling.
This is actually a really good point. The only thing Journey has over this is a more aggressive cost. To essentially have 2 oblivion rings for mono-white is tremendous. I for one recall times I have journey in hand and wish I had an answer to a non-land, non-creature permanent. This also balances out equipment like the Swords of X/Y a marginal % more (which I am in favor of).
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Sphinx's Revelation always comes with additional value, and Supreme Verdict's clause is very relevant for me, given that I support blue tempo with lots of counterspells. On the other hand, tokens aren't a major theme for me, so Detention Sphere is largely just a worse O-Ring. It's a fine line to be sure, and D-Sphere is certainly a fine card to have handy if Venser doesn't pan out.
In white, I think Eternal Dragon is going to finally get the cut from me. I'll miss him, but Venser better fits what my durdly midrange Reveillark decks what to be doing.
Cubetutor Link
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 450 Cube
My playgroup and I disagree, and I see Rev first picked on occasion. Perhaps there's some bias from it busting up standard, but it fits very well in both the big mana and control decks, and midrange decks usually maindeck it as well.
Cubetutor Link
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Simply because venser is so damn cool and Sphinx's revelation is extremly powerful in a powered cube.
There's 2 wrath of gods and terminus as premium sweepers and then there's at least a couple solid 6 mana wraths (austere command is underrated in general imo).
Supreme verdict is better than all of them, but by a very marginal amount, while Sphinx's revelation is a premium azorius finisher that has a fairly unique effect.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Mostly just because there are some very cool cards in UW that I'd like to cube with. That color combo has been very good for me lately, so I want to try some new things with it rather than up the raw answer count with even more removal. It's not a direct swap, and I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it right now.
Cubetutor Link
Why not seed Venser into future drafts instead of cutting an amazing card in D-Sphere? That way you can keep on playing with known commodities and continually test an unknown one.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
My cube
My cube on Cube tutor
I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
A card like Journey to Nowhere--which tries to situate itself in the middle--looks even less attractive. Aggressive decks are lukewarm on it and controlling decks will simply have too many better options unless you are intentionally making the decision to tip the balance in that direction. I also think that quantity and quality will intersect here because Faith's Fetters has been marginal for some time and presents yet another "hard" removal spell that can be countered by enchantment removal (Moat is on the list as well, don't forget, if you play that)
White could previously go in this same direction if it played cards like Condemn and Wall of Reverence, but they seemed to be viewed with some skepticism where Oblivion Rings #37, 38, & 39 apparently are not.
As a parting note, perhaps this could be the turning point where more Cubes start to deemphasize Wraths. Wrath effects are so-so in Limited because you are normally compelled to play creatures yourself and they are suspect in Eternal formats because individual creatures are so good. Cube is a combination of Limited and Eternal..
In particular, (mana) efficiency and powerful/versatile point removal are the two things that overshadow Wraths the most in those formats. And that is what white is getting more and more of. When this recognition/shift happens it seems to me it will be a long overdue update to the understanding of the Cube format.
Overall, I am personally fine with the trend I'm seeing in white but in our Cube white aggro often centers around Cold Snap and Once More With More Feeling, which most Cubes don't allow. Incidentally, Once More With Feeling is much better adapted to the role of finisher than Armageddon because it is just too hard/improbable to generate a commanding board position with Armageddon. A side effect of this--although there are multiple other reasons--is that white aggro decks tend to skew towards heavy (near mono) white.
One last point on the numbers. The Cube database and the associated analytics seems to show exactly what one would expect: an odd mingling of forward looking moves coupled with plenty of muck from outmoded ideas on Cube construction in general and the vector for the color white.
Thus we see advances (at least at smaller cube sizes which is all I can personally speak to) in the diminishing appearances of Kor Sanctifiers along with misfits like Kor Skyfisher and Cloudgoat Ranger (still strongly represented by raw numbers but significantly less played than Baneslayer, Reveillark, Gideon, and Sun Titan).
On the negative side of the ledger we see confusion regarding the second tier of low end attackers -- both in terms of which to choose and how many to play. Aggressive strategies even suffer a bit as it becomes chic to remove the three mana Ajani the *insane* Silverblade Paladin (which at least seems to have supplanted its less accomplished counterpart Soltari Champion). Perhaps some of this is the pull from token cards and Spear of Heliod, leading to decks which are willing to sacrifice oomph for sweep.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!