You won't get the bodies back when it's relevant, and you won't get the reach when they're low on life.
I think this is the point that you're missing. An opponent who is low on life against this card is in a terrible position no matter what choice he makes. An opponent low on life wants to use combat damage and removal spells to pull out of it and run you out of gas. This guy prevents that from happening. That's what you want from cards that force your opponent to make a choice. You want there to basically be no choice at all. This guy will eventually put your opponent in that position. Vexing Devil, however, is a perfect example of a bad punisher card. Your 1cc guys need to come out early to be good. In the early game Vexing Devil is basically just a Lava Spike. In the late game, when they can't afford to take the four, then any of the good 1cc creatures would probably suffice. The biggest difference with Athreos, I think, is the fact that he stays on the board pretty much indefinitely. He constantly screws up combat math and removal decisions for your opponent. And he poses the threat of eventually becoming an unkillable 5/4 beater as well.
Again, no one is saying this is the card that busts Orzhov wide open. We're just saying it's not garbage and cubes with larger multicolor sections could easily sub him in for a decent middle of the road Orzhov card like Gerrard's Verdict or something. No one is cutting Vindicate or Lingering Souls for this guy and no one is claiming that he's gonna be a 360 staple. The bottom line is that we don't know how he's gonna play. You may be 100% correct. The effect here may basically always do nothing and ultimately be an irrelevant card that ends up sitting in sideboards. My cube is big enough, however, that I have the luxury of being able to fairly easily find room to test a card like this.
It's actually not good in Pox/Stax decks. Those archetypes are filled to the brim with token generators and recursive creatures. Especially in BW, where the main reason to choose white as a secondary color for a Pox deck is to get abundant token producers. Bloodghast, Reassembling Skeleton, Gravecrawler, creature tokens ...those are the kinds of cards that bring your creature death count up to reasonable numbers—and none of them get any benefit from this god.
Quote from calibretto »
An opponent who is low on life against this card is in a terrible position no matter what choice he makes.
This is true of all punisher cards. Doesn't make them good.
And there's also no guarantee that your opponent will be at a low life either. Especially when your 3-drop doesn't impact the board or push additional damage through. I'd honestly rather play something like Griffin Guide, because it provides wrath protection while also pushing more damage through right away (and immediately providing pressure with the body it creates). I don't want to sacrifice tempo against my opponent's when I'm playing an aggressive deck.
I can't imagine cutting any of the good 3+cc aggro cards for this thing.
Because of the influence you have on this community, it saddens me when you think a card like this is "garbage". It's not garbage. It may not be amazing, but it's worth testing in larger multicolor sections. So Pox decks with tokens and creatures that come back anyway don't really benefit from this card. Ok, so? Not every BW deck is a Pox deck, and not every BW card has to be good in every BW deck. Sometimes your BW deck is just early aggro beaters. Those are the decks where I'd be happy to try this guy out.
Because of the influence you have on this community, it saddens me when you think a card like this is "garbage".
Sorry, but I'm still going to voice my opinion.
There are a lot of cards that I don't cube with that are solid cards. Cards I would happily draft in someone else's cube if I was a guest drafter. This isn't one of them. I would not add this card to any final 40 that I'd create.
Quote from calibretto »
It's not garbage.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's complete trash. There's at least 10 BW cards I think better serve the cube than this card, and I'd happily play pretty much any "on-deck" mono-colored 3cc card over it. Plus all the ones in the cube already.
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So Pox decks with tokens and creatures that come back anyway don't really benefit from this card. Ok, so?
What do you mean "so"? It was a response to someone saying that it was good for Pox/Stax. Which it isn't.
Quote from calibretto »
Sometimes your BW deck is just early aggro beaters. Those are the decks where I'd be happy to try this guy out.
I'd much rather use another threat, disruption or removal spell. Any day of the week.
..........
Look at it objectively. Lets say that the card performs as you hope it does. You get three solid triggers from the card, and you get lucky with the timing windows so your opponent is forced to make decisions the way you want them to. They give you two cards back and take 3 damage from it. That would be a solid performance from the card, which could certainly do much worse than that in the average resolution. That puts it in the realm of Blightning in terms of power-level. I don't know about you, but I don't want to cross my fingers with a gold card and hope that I get a Blightning-quality effect from it. And it's arguably still worse than Blightning even if you do get 3 triggers, because the cards you get back might not be as valuable as the ones you could've purged from their hand, and Blightning works as reach every time you play it. You don't have to dislike the card, but I certainly don't think it's any good at all.
I'm hedging my bets on both sides. The card is undoubtedly very, very abuseable in constructed, but it's also very specific about the kind of game he wants to play: he wants your deck to be attacking, utilize lots of ETB/LTB triggers, and feature enough devotion to turn him on regularly.
That last point is the key. He's comparable to Thassa, God of the Sea: the abilities are no doubt useful, but they're still just stupid enchantments that only have a narrow effect on the board if they never turn on. If they do a significant portion of the time though, they're bombs. In exchange for Thassa's flexibility (can work with a higher curve, requires less of your deck, WCS is still Think Tank), Athreos should be easier to activate and has higher upside in the right deck.
The reason I won't be cubing him to start with is that he just demands too much. Wheras Thassa often gets taken late as a hedge for blue decks if they find more permanents, Athreos needs you to have exactly the right type of deck to even consider him, which is a huge strike against him as a multicolor card.
I'm not saying you shouldn't voice your opinion. It's just frustrating. I think people with larger multicolor sections should at least be considering this card for testing, but unfortunately not everyone's opinion goes as far around here as yours. That's not your fault and not a strike against you, it's just the way of the world on MTGS. You speak and people listen. I just think this card is deserving of a more open mind than just outright saying it's garbage, that's all.
Apparently I missed the post where Pox decks were recommended. I thought your Pox post was just a thought you had and wanted to voice.
I feel like I am looking at the card objectively. I've been cubing long enough to know how many games are decided by creatures. Creatures die in combat. Creatures die to spells. Creatures die to sacrifice effects. I don't think it's so out there to think that in a seven turn game where this guy lands on turn three, that you'll get three or more triggers from him. I'm completely ok with adding this choice to every creature death.
This cards seems like the epitome of a card that needs to be tested before you can really know how it's going to play.
People listen to a lot of voices on here, yours included. They'll read your opinion and be inspired to test the card. They may read my opinion and concur that it's trash. They may read the opinion of someone who's hellbent on praising the card and follow their advice. All we can do is share our thoughts and opinions on the card. It shouldn't be frustrating if someone has an opinion that differs from yours.
I've been cubing long enough to know that cards where your opponent decides what they do aren't good. You're okay with the "choice" because both effects are beneficial to you. This is the case for every punisher mechanic card, and they're never good. I'm not okay with it because I don't include cards in my final 40 just for a random beneficial effect. I include cards for a specific purpose, and this card doesn't give me that. I think I would need the game to run at least 7 turns, resolve on T3, and have at least 3 of my creatures die after it resolves for it to have a barely acceptable level of play. Equal only then in value to cards currently riding the bench. That's not acceptable to me. I don't want to roll the dice and hope that my card might be as valuable as Blightning, and take 7 turns to get there.
I think the card is bad. I think the card is the epitome of a card that has no business in a cube deck. You disagree. Oh well. That happens in the cube forum from time to time.
Because of the influence you have on this community, it saddens me when you think a card like this is "garbage". It's not garbage. It may not be amazing, but it's worth testing in larger multicolor sections. So Pox decks with tokens and creatures that come back anyway don't really benefit from this card. Ok, so? Not every BW deck is a Pox deck, and not every BW card has to be good in every BW deck. Sometimes your BW deck is just early aggro beaters. Those are the decks where I'd be happy to try this guy out.
I mean, if someone looks at the card and gets excited about trying it out and then they change their mind based on wtwlf's pre-testing opinion isn't that sort of silly? He is an influence on the forum because of his articles and his prolific posting and objective insight, but he's not like...the cube inquisition that you must adhere to. It's easy to tell where the difference in opinion comes from. He runs one of the fastest lists on the forum, and so it makes sense that this card will be pretty crappy in his cube. I for one, could see this doing much better in a list like my own which is unpowered and so a fair bit slower. The card will get more activations per game and will probably test pretty well at least in the midrange mirror, and at least well enough to keep around for some amount of time. Plus, I think my players will like it, which is really just an inarguable stance to take. I would run storm crow if my players got enough of a kick out of it to run it. I think the card is worth testing in slower cubes where a good number of activations are pretty much guaranteed.
I'm with calibretto on this one. I don't think the card is garbage, but I'm not going to be running it either. Neither effect is negligible, and though your getting the worst effect, it isn't a one time deal like most other punsiher cards. With the current black suite you could easily make a deck that takes advantage of this card to get value out of plays constantly. Instead of thinking about it as a card that you get the worst effect out of, think of it as a card that gives you value every time your creatures die. Not only that white black IMO is the easiest to reach devotion with.
Now the downsides wtwlf listed are huge and I'm not saying I don't necesarilly agree, but I also dont think this card shouldn't be pushed to be tested, and it definitely doesn't deserve the label of garbage.
So my verdict. I won't be running it but I encourage it to be tested, cause it does have the potential to be good ( cubes still running cards like innocent blood and fleshbag marauder and the like. )
I felt too lazy to comment on this god, but I agree 100% with wtw.
Maybe slightly exagerating on how bad it is, but don't think it's anywhere close to inclusion.
Smaller cubes, there are too many better cards, and larger cubes doesnt have the style of deck required to make this card good.
Neither effect is negligible, and though your getting the worst effect, it isn't a one time deal like most other punsiher cards. With the current black suite you could easily make a deck that takes advantage of this card to get value out of plays constantly. Instead of thinking about it as a card that you get the worst effect out of, think of it as a card that gives you value every time your creatures die.
This is exactly why I think the card deserves testing and is better than your average run of the mill one shot punisher card. It adds value to something that happens naturally in game play while being aggressively priced and having the potential of becoming a 5/4 indestructible beat stick at some point in the game. Again, it's not the best card Orzhov has to offer, but I think it's a far cry from "garbage".
The comparison to Blightning is rather convincing. I think this card could turn out to be a #5 or #6 Orzhov card though. I definitely wouldn't call it garbage without testing since the right card combinations could really push it.
I'd like to point out that, assuming no life gain, there is a cap on how many creatures your opponent can send to the bin. 18/3 = 6. Assuming no life gain, your opponent can only afford to put six creatures in the graveyard. If you deal damage by attacking or burning the opponent, the number of creatures drops even less. Many of your creatures will go back to your hand. Yes your opponent will have some control - at first. But if the game goes long enough, there won't be a choice anymore.
I'm sure I couldn't give you all of them, but off the top of my head, this and evoke goes well together. Goblin bombardment/other sac outlet and etb dudes, Sneak Attack. I'm pretty sure some others could be dreamed up especially in larger cubes where more diverse options could be easily had and are the only placees you'd find a 5-6 card Orzhov section.
Imho the card isn't garbage per se, but it isn't good enough either. The trigger is good. It's very abusable and the indestructibility gives the card a feeling of inevitability. However, it's only an enchantment. An enchantment that wants to get dropped on curve for maximum effect. That is the problem of the card. It's a matter of opportunity cost. Is the card good enough to justify skipping a 3-drop threat? I don't think so. If the trigger was on a guaranteed body, I'd seriously consider playing this card, as it gave me a good effect in addition to a threatening body. But it doesn't. Also it doesn't work with tokens, which is a huge minus.
Is the card good enough to justify skipping a 3-drop threat? I don't think so.
While it's not on a guaranteed body, I don't think it's exactly skipping your 3-drop threat either. White and black are both full of cards with multiple mana symbols in their cost. I don't think it will be very hard to activate devotion on this guy and turn him into a monster. Obviously I don't know that for sure and he may play differently, but on paper it seems like a fairly easy task.
Like almost all punisher cards, this one seems pretty weak. Your opponent is always going to pick exactly the wrong choice for you at any given time.
Beyond my quick evaluation of the card, I do want to chime in on the controversy surrounding WTWLF and his opinions. If they carry authority, it's because he obviously cubes quite a bit. I don't always agree with him, but he usually presents an argument that's cogent and direct. As shown by the diversity in cubes, his word isn't law, and it seems sad to try and criticize him for participating in a discussion here.
I'd like to point out that, assuming no life gain, there is a cap on how many creatures your opponent can send to the bin. 18/3 = 6. Assuming no life gain, your opponent can only afford to put six creatures in the graveyard. If you deal damage by attacking or burning the opponent, the number of creatures drops even less. Many of your creatures will go back to your hand. Yes your opponent will have some control - at first. But if the game goes long enough, there won't be a choice anymore.
This also assumes that your opponent wants to bin your creatures, which is not the case. Want to dome your opponent because he's got the ground gummed up? You're going to get Elite Vanguard back. Want to replay your Grave Titan? You're not getting it back. Assuming this even gets to six activations, are six activations like the above really desirable? I don't think so. This card gets a teensy bit of slack from me because its ability is somewhat synergistic when it comes to turning on devotion, but again - your opponent will always choose the time and place for it, and that's just not good enough.
It is very rare but punisher cards can work. They just need to be more like fact or fiction, and less like browbeat.
Vexing devil was uncubable for me because sometimes 1 mana 4 to the face isn't good. 1 man 4/3 creatures are good all the time. So combined the opponent had a way out.
If we look at the non creature part of the card it is either a 3 damage death trigger, something that some decks would love to have all the time. Or it can be return to hand effect, most decks would love that kind of card advantage. Now the question is not if you opponent has an easy choice, they usually will, but if their easy choice is still of significant value to you. I argue the is just might be, because it is repeatable. Imagine if vexing devil was 2 damage instead of 4, but it returned to your hand. Meaning they have to deal with your cheap fatty, or keep taking two damage. I look at this god giving each creature's damage output a potential +3. This is huge in an aggro deck that is looking to do 4-6 damage with each of it's early creatures.
Now I am satisfied that it is a card I want to play. But there is still the question of the opportunity cost. How does it compare in the decks that want it vs. other cards that are on the bubble for normal sized cubes? How often will a deck come up that wants this?
In black there are value engines like Xathrid Necromancer, which act similarly but more reliably, with a lower ceiling. You also have pure aggressive 3 drops like Herald of Torment that are better at more points of the game. In white you have Glorious Anthem which makes your team better, is more reliable, plays well with tokens, but is bad against removal. In the guild section you could be running cards like Obzedat, Stillmoon Caviler, or Gerrard's Verdict. I think all of those put a larger immediate pressure on the opponent. The only way the god seems to rise well above the competing options is environments crazy full of removal. It is here that the long term value vs. casting cost makes it shine. And while the average cube is very heavy with removal, you need to be fighting sweepers every match to make that value.
The last question is how often will this turn into a creature. And since I feel that I only want this card if I am staring down removal by the bucket full, I should not expect to get to 7 devotion.
So after a couple days, and a thought exercise, I may have talked myself out of this one. I probably will still try it (Since I want to build an 24 creature 2 power 1 drop standard deck.) but it may just be too narrow. I would love to hear if anyone's cube trials turn out differently than I expect.
No way that this card beats out Obzedat, Gerrard's Verdict or Unburial Rites for my Orzhov section. I know it looks like a fun card, but it's a waste of a BW slot.
The more I think about it the less I think that's true.
If my 3 drop deals 6 damage to my opponent: I'm happy
If my 3 drop returns 2 creatures from GY to hand: I'm happy
If my 3 drop beats for 5 damage: I'm happy
If my 3 drop changes how my opponent plays, as an indestructible enchantment: I'm happy.
Athreos hits using 3 different angles on the same front. He may be a punisher card, but he's a damned good one. Just because he's a punisher doesn't automatically make him trash. Thassa turns on every couple games and Athreos seems a lot easier to turn on, so yes, my evaluation does include Athreos as a 5/X beater sometimes.
Its a very flexible card, for example, to respond to "I only want this card if I'm staring down removal by the bucketful".
When your opponent has removal, he is a defense/reach mechanism, but when they don't have it he is a very fast clock.
When I was talking about load of removal, I meant Control/Wrath or Black Attrition. I think it is very good there. When my opponent is playing mono red, or green/white fair fatties this is way less good. Hopefully my creatures are better at one and 2, but the Green deck might just put out a Thrun or Polukronos in response to this. Am I going to just run my little guys into that? No way.
Against red they don't mind giving up their life or sending a card back. They don't intend for me to live long enough to cast all my spells anyway.
I am not sure that a super aggro deck wants to take turn 3 off. Maybe against midrange you can activate this guy to go toe to toe with their fatties, but creature modes on these gods are a trap. Even when they activate my opponent blows out another one of my creatures mid combat to deactivate it. Only late game when spells are used up can they dominate the board (Thassa).
Now maybe in more of a midrange, going Mother of Runes, Thalia, this, removal....
At this point I'm very skeptical that this God will be playable. That said I've enjoyed trolling the discussion. So far this set has provided a lot of interesting and discussion worthy cards... and I'll be very interested to see results from those that decide to test the card. If it cost 4 I wouldn't even consider it but for 3... we'll see.
I opened this guy tonight and he was a blast to play. Does anyone have any feedback from cube or did no one give him a shot? I havnt really seen him in any lists, was it because he actually played bad or was it off the back of the theory crafting? I'm considering giving him a try for afew drafts.
I think this is the point that you're missing. An opponent who is low on life against this card is in a terrible position no matter what choice he makes. An opponent low on life wants to use combat damage and removal spells to pull out of it and run you out of gas. This guy prevents that from happening. That's what you want from cards that force your opponent to make a choice. You want there to basically be no choice at all. This guy will eventually put your opponent in that position. Vexing Devil, however, is a perfect example of a bad punisher card. Your 1cc guys need to come out early to be good. In the early game Vexing Devil is basically just a Lava Spike. In the late game, when they can't afford to take the four, then any of the good 1cc creatures would probably suffice. The biggest difference with Athreos, I think, is the fact that he stays on the board pretty much indefinitely. He constantly screws up combat math and removal decisions for your opponent. And he poses the threat of eventually becoming an unkillable 5/4 beater as well.
Again, no one is saying this is the card that busts Orzhov wide open. We're just saying it's not garbage and cubes with larger multicolor sections could easily sub him in for a decent middle of the road Orzhov card like Gerrard's Verdict or something. No one is cutting Vindicate or Lingering Souls for this guy and no one is claiming that he's gonna be a 360 staple. The bottom line is that we don't know how he's gonna play. You may be 100% correct. The effect here may basically always do nothing and ultimately be an irrelevant card that ends up sitting in sideboards. My cube is big enough, however, that I have the luxury of being able to fairly easily find room to test a card like this.
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This is true of all punisher cards. Doesn't make them good.
And there's also no guarantee that your opponent will be at a low life either. Especially when your 3-drop doesn't impact the board or push additional damage through. I'd honestly rather play something like Griffin Guide, because it provides wrath protection while also pushing more damage through right away (and immediately providing pressure with the body it creates). I don't want to sacrifice tempo against my opponent's when I'm playing an aggressive deck.
I can't imagine cutting any of the good 3+cc aggro cards for this thing.
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Sorry, but I'm still going to voice my opinion.
There are a lot of cards that I don't cube with that are solid cards. Cards I would happily draft in someone else's cube if I was a guest drafter. This isn't one of them. I would not add this card to any final 40 that I'd create.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's complete trash. There's at least 10 BW cards I think better serve the cube than this card, and I'd happily play pretty much any "on-deck" mono-colored 3cc card over it. Plus all the ones in the cube already.
What do you mean "so"? It was a response to someone saying that it was good for Pox/Stax. Which it isn't.
I'd much rather use another threat, disruption or removal spell. Any day of the week.
..........
Look at it objectively. Lets say that the card performs as you hope it does. You get three solid triggers from the card, and you get lucky with the timing windows so your opponent is forced to make decisions the way you want them to. They give you two cards back and take 3 damage from it. That would be a solid performance from the card, which could certainly do much worse than that in the average resolution. That puts it in the realm of Blightning in terms of power-level. I don't know about you, but I don't want to cross my fingers with a gold card and hope that I get a Blightning-quality effect from it. And it's arguably still worse than Blightning even if you do get 3 triggers, because the cards you get back might not be as valuable as the ones you could've purged from their hand, and Blightning works as reach every time you play it. You don't have to dislike the card, but I certainly don't think it's any good at all.
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That last point is the key. He's comparable to Thassa, God of the Sea: the abilities are no doubt useful, but they're still just stupid enchantments that only have a narrow effect on the board if they never turn on. If they do a significant portion of the time though, they're bombs. In exchange for Thassa's flexibility (can work with a higher curve, requires less of your deck, WCS is still Think Tank), Athreos should be easier to activate and has higher upside in the right deck.
The reason I won't be cubing him to start with is that he just demands too much. Wheras Thassa often gets taken late as a hedge for blue decks if they find more permanents, Athreos needs you to have exactly the right type of deck to even consider him, which is a huge strike against him as a multicolor card.
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Apparently I missed the post where Pox decks were recommended. I thought your Pox post was just a thought you had and wanted to voice.
I feel like I am looking at the card objectively. I've been cubing long enough to know how many games are decided by creatures. Creatures die in combat. Creatures die to spells. Creatures die to sacrifice effects. I don't think it's so out there to think that in a seven turn game where this guy lands on turn three, that you'll get three or more triggers from him. I'm completely ok with adding this choice to every creature death.
This cards seems like the epitome of a card that needs to be tested before you can really know how it's going to play.
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I've been cubing long enough to know that cards where your opponent decides what they do aren't good. You're okay with the "choice" because both effects are beneficial to you. This is the case for every punisher mechanic card, and they're never good. I'm not okay with it because I don't include cards in my final 40 just for a random beneficial effect. I include cards for a specific purpose, and this card doesn't give me that. I think I would need the game to run at least 7 turns, resolve on T3, and have at least 3 of my creatures die after it resolves for it to have a barely acceptable level of play. Equal only then in value to cards currently riding the bench. That's not acceptable to me. I don't want to roll the dice and hope that my card might be as valuable as Blightning, and take 7 turns to get there.
I think the card is bad. I think the card is the epitome of a card that has no business in a cube deck. You disagree. Oh well. That happens in the cube forum from time to time.
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I mean, if someone looks at the card and gets excited about trying it out and then they change their mind based on wtwlf's pre-testing opinion isn't that sort of silly? He is an influence on the forum because of his articles and his prolific posting and objective insight, but he's not like...the cube inquisition that you must adhere to. It's easy to tell where the difference in opinion comes from. He runs one of the fastest lists on the forum, and so it makes sense that this card will be pretty crappy in his cube. I for one, could see this doing much better in a list like my own which is unpowered and so a fair bit slower. The card will get more activations per game and will probably test pretty well at least in the midrange mirror, and at least well enough to keep around for some amount of time. Plus, I think my players will like it, which is really just an inarguable stance to take. I would run storm crow if my players got enough of a kick out of it to run it. I think the card is worth testing in slower cubes where a good number of activations are pretty much guaranteed.
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Now the downsides wtwlf listed are huge and I'm not saying I don't necesarilly agree, but I also dont think this card shouldn't be pushed to be tested, and it definitely doesn't deserve the label of garbage.
So my verdict. I won't be running it but I encourage it to be tested, cause it does have the potential to be good ( cubes still running cards like innocent blood and fleshbag marauder and the like. )
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Maybe slightly exagerating on how bad it is, but don't think it's anywhere close to inclusion.
Smaller cubes, there are too many better cards, and larger cubes doesnt have the style of deck required to make this card good.
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This is exactly why I think the card deserves testing and is better than your average run of the mill one shot punisher card. It adds value to something that happens naturally in game play while being aggressively priced and having the potential of becoming a 5/4 indestructible beat stick at some point in the game. Again, it's not the best card Orzhov has to offer, but I think it's a far cry from "garbage".
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Also W00T! for an EDH cube powerhouse!!!!!
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I won't give this one a try.
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While it's not on a guaranteed body, I don't think it's exactly skipping your 3-drop threat either. White and black are both full of cards with multiple mana symbols in their cost. I don't think it will be very hard to activate devotion on this guy and turn him into a monster. Obviously I don't know that for sure and he may play differently, but on paper it seems like a fairly easy task.
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Beyond my quick evaluation of the card, I do want to chime in on the controversy surrounding WTWLF and his opinions. If they carry authority, it's because he obviously cubes quite a bit. I don't always agree with him, but he usually presents an argument that's cogent and direct. As shown by the diversity in cubes, his word isn't law, and it seems sad to try and criticize him for participating in a discussion here.
This also assumes that your opponent wants to bin your creatures, which is not the case. Want to dome your opponent because he's got the ground gummed up? You're going to get Elite Vanguard back. Want to replay your Grave Titan? You're not getting it back. Assuming this even gets to six activations, are six activations like the above really desirable? I don't think so. This card gets a teensy bit of slack from me because its ability is somewhat synergistic when it comes to turning on devotion, but again - your opponent will always choose the time and place for it, and that's just not good enough.
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Level 1 Judge
Vexing devil was uncubable for me because sometimes 1 mana 4 to the face isn't good. 1 man 4/3 creatures are good all the time. So combined the opponent had a way out.
If we look at the non creature part of the card it is either a 3 damage death trigger, something that some decks would love to have all the time. Or it can be return to hand effect, most decks would love that kind of card advantage. Now the question is not if you opponent has an easy choice, they usually will, but if their easy choice is still of significant value to you. I argue the is just might be, because it is repeatable. Imagine if vexing devil was 2 damage instead of 4, but it returned to your hand. Meaning they have to deal with your cheap fatty, or keep taking two damage. I look at this god giving each creature's damage output a potential +3. This is huge in an aggro deck that is looking to do 4-6 damage with each of it's early creatures.
Now I am satisfied that it is a card I want to play. But there is still the question of the opportunity cost. How does it compare in the decks that want it vs. other cards that are on the bubble for normal sized cubes? How often will a deck come up that wants this?
In black there are value engines like Xathrid Necromancer, which act similarly but more reliably, with a lower ceiling. You also have pure aggressive 3 drops like Herald of Torment that are better at more points of the game. In white you have Glorious Anthem which makes your team better, is more reliable, plays well with tokens, but is bad against removal. In the guild section you could be running cards like Obzedat, Stillmoon Caviler, or Gerrard's Verdict. I think all of those put a larger immediate pressure on the opponent. The only way the god seems to rise well above the competing options is environments crazy full of removal. It is here that the long term value vs. casting cost makes it shine. And while the average cube is very heavy with removal, you need to be fighting sweepers every match to make that value.
The last question is how often will this turn into a creature. And since I feel that I only want this card if I am staring down removal by the bucket full, I should not expect to get to 7 devotion.
So after a couple days, and a thought exercise, I may have talked myself out of this one. I probably will still try it (Since I want to build an 24 creature 2 power 1 drop standard deck.) but it may just be too narrow. I would love to hear if anyone's cube trials turn out differently than I expect.
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Draft!
If my 3 drop deals 6 damage to my opponent: I'm happy
If my 3 drop returns 2 creatures from GY to hand: I'm happy
If my 3 drop beats for 5 damage: I'm happy
If my 3 drop changes how my opponent plays, as an indestructible enchantment: I'm happy.
Athreos hits using 3 different angles on the same front. He may be a punisher card, but he's a damned good one. Just because he's a punisher doesn't automatically make him trash. Thassa turns on every couple games and Athreos seems a lot easier to turn on, so yes, my evaluation does include Athreos as a 5/X beater sometimes.
Its a very flexible card, for example, to respond to "I only want this card if I'm staring down removal by the bucketful".
When your opponent has removal, he is a defense/reach mechanism, but when they don't have it he is a very fast clock.
thats my cube
Against red they don't mind giving up their life or sending a card back. They don't intend for me to live long enough to cast all my spells anyway.
I am not sure that a super aggro deck wants to take turn 3 off. Maybe against midrange you can activate this guy to go toe to toe with their fatties, but creature modes on these gods are a trap. Even when they activate my opponent blows out another one of my creatures mid combat to deactivate it. Only late game when spells are used up can they dominate the board (Thassa).
Now maybe in more of a midrange, going Mother of Runes, Thalia, this, removal....