I just think you have misinterpreted his statement.
If your cube section of 80ish cards has 20 dedicated aggro cards, 20 dedicated control cards, and 40 general purpose cards, there's probably 1-2 good aggro configurations you can build, whereas there are quite a few more good control configurations that can be built from the same pool.
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It's about being able to reach your ideal target saturation for every aggro deck in every draft. I think we still need help to reach those numbers at this point (I know I do, anyways).
Nobody is suggesting playing nothing but 1-drops and lands—that would make for a terrible deck. We're suggesting that the cube pool needs to be saturated with enough of them to build multiple consistent aggro decks in each draft.
And it's okay for non-aggro cards to be fewer in number. You can build a lot more control decks with 20 playable control cards than you can build aggro decks with 20 playable aggro cards.
I realize that. I was just disagreeing with Antknee's point that he'd add one drops "until aggro became too good". In my opinion, no amount of extra one drops will *by themselves* make aggro too good. On the contrary, there are other things aggro, and specifically black aggro, needs much more urgently to become better.
And about the last point, I don't disagree at all, but as a consequence, all aggro decks look alike. In your example, you'd need all 20 "aggro cards" to make a good aggro deck, i.e. all aggro decks are identical, but you could take 0-10 "aggro cards" and 10-20 "control cards" to make a control deck, so your control decks have much more diversity.
You can build a lot more control decks with 20 playable control cards than you can build aggro decks with 20 playable aggro cards.
I'm pretty sure you can build one aggro deck and one control deck in that situation.
The difference is, a lot of 2-4 mana aggro creatures can also serve good use in Midrange and Control decks, while few dedicated Control cards are good in Aggro decks, besides spot removal (which is good for everyone).
Well, we were talking about one-drops specifically. How many one-drops not named Grim Lavamancer (or Deathrite Shaman if you run that) are good in both control and aggro decks? That is precisely the point, each general-purpose card you replace with a two-power one-drop is one less broadly useful card and one more card that's only usable in one deck (aggro), so there is a real cost in terms of list space associated with them.
No matter how you look at it, 2-power 1-drops all do roughly the same thing. Each card they bump out of your list will do something different, oftentimes something unique.
Just reat wtwlft previous response to you, Falcone. He doesn't want 25 "Isamarus" in black. He wants 9. He now has 6, 7 with Scarhide. If Wizards print 5 more, he'll choose the best 9 among the 12 he has access to, just like everyone already does with for example "black spot removal" cards.
I don't know how many my cube wants. Maybe just 7? If that's so, I've just reached that amount. One more and I'll simply cut the worse ones. Five more, same thing, still at 7 (of better quality now). Yay for me!
You're the one talking about "unlimited" one-drops, Falcone. Everyone else want more because we still have less than the ideal amount at the moment.
Fair enough. Again, I'm not saying Gnarled Scarhide is not a good card (it will definitely make my list) and I'm also not saying that Wizards shouldn't print more two-power one-drops, I'm just disagreeing with the idea that this printing somehow makes (black) aggro decks significantly stronger.
Yes, I am also dying to hear what is inappropriate about art of a minotaur with one arm.
I expect(ed) better from you guys. I would think you are all aware that it is important to be sensitive to the perspective of ALL players. I already have players (PLURAL) who do not want this card to be played because of the art. Nor is that an unexpected development -- I knew when I first saw it that the art was going to be a problem,
I think you are not aware of the broad cross section of gamers who play Magic if you do not understand the complaint. It is myopic and self serving to filter the question only through the lens through which YOU see Magic.
Can you say what is inappropriate about this art? I just don't see this as any more gory or inappropriate than many other cards so I don't understand the complaint. I don't see blood or anything so I am just confused by this. If you could let me know what you guys find uncomfortable about the art maybe I will understand where you are coming from. What aspects of the art are you complaining about?
The only thing that I can think of is that KBH is playing with veterans or other people who lost parts of their body during a war. If it is not that, I really want to hear a clear statement about what he thinks is wrong with the art rather than a vague and reproachful response like the last one.
Amputees is really the only reason I could see someone being... not even offended, just put off by the card, in comparison to other cards. I mean sure, if you haven't seen many magic cards, this one is definitely on the gorey, and pg-13 side.
The whole offensive art thing is just ridiculous. Make an "offensive art" thread instead of discussing it here. It has no bearing on whether or not a card is good enough for the cube.
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I'm pretty sure you can build one aggro deck and one control deck in that situation.
I'm pretty sure you're just trolling and not paying any attention to what's actually being said at all. But that's kinda always been the case with you, so I'm not surprised.
If I have 20 dedicated aggro creatures, how many aggro decks can I build from that pool? Maybe 2 if I'm lucky?
If I have 20 dedicated control creatures, how many control decks can I build from that pool? Closer to 4 or even 5?
So having more aggro cards and less control cards doesn't make control less playable or aggro overrepresented. Control can build competitive decks with a significantly lower number of dedicated tools than aggro can.
Quote from Falcone1983 »
I'm just disagreeing with the idea that this printing somehow makes (black) aggro decks significantly stronger.
Well, if you're currently not reaching the saturation of 1cc aggro creatures you want for your aggro decks, having even 1 more make the pool is a significant boost to the strength of the deck. So I'd argue that every cube that is adding this to their existing suite rather than simply upgrading an existing creature is making a significant upgrade to the quality of their average black aggro decks.
No it doesn't, but in my lifetime of playing Cube actively, I highly doubt they could print enough playable ones for me to not include them in my Cube. Taking it to an extreme of 25 Isamarus doesn't prove or disprove my feelings about aggro cards. Even if you had 'enough' in your Cube, including mono one-drops isn't good drafting or deckbuilding IMO. I want enough 1s to cast them on t1 and 2, but I'm not super thrilled casting them anytime after that (as most of their value decreases after that part of the game, with a couple of exceptions).
To do that, you need quite a few in your deck to make sure that you have them early enough.
To do that, you need to draft enough for your deck.
To do that, you need enough in the Cube.
To do that, you need aggressive decks to represent enough of the viable decks available in the drafts in order to not have a bunch of last picks.
To do that, you need more one-armed minotaurs.
We don't have enough, ergo I'm always taking applications for openings.
Until the aggro decks start dominating every draft or represent to large a piece of the meta, I'm always taking apps.
No it doesn't, but in my lifetime of playing Cube actively, I highly doubt they could print enough playable ones for me to not include them in my Cube. Taking it to an extreme of 25 Isamarus doesn't prove or disprove my feelings about aggro cards. Even if you had 'enough' in your Cube, including mono one-drops isn't good drafting or deckbuilding IMO. I want enough 1s to cast them on t1 and 2, but I'm not super thrilled casting them anytime after that (as most of their value decreases after that part of the game, with a couple of exceptions).
To do that, you need quite a few in your deck to make sure that you have them early enough.
To do that, you need to draft enough for your deck.
To do that, you need enough in the Cube.
To do that, you need aggressive decks to represent enough of the viable decks available in the drafts in order to not have a bunch of last picks.
To do that, you need more one-armed minotaurs.
We don't have enough, ergo I'm always taking applications for openings.
Until the aggro decks start dominating every draft or represent to large a piece of the meta, I'm always taking apps.
-AA
Absolutely. One of the reasons Scarhide is so good is that he retains lots of value later in the game. It's an amazing one drop.
Still completely baffling as to the supposed offensive nature of the art. If there's a JIN art to be offended by, it's Brain Maggot... I mean, eww! I cannot conceive a situation where Scarhide would be offensive.
He's kidding. He's parodying the people who complain about there being skinny people on magic art, or how someone always complains when we get a magic art that contains an attractive female.
He's taking the argument to an extreme end, trying to show how silly he thinks those complaints are, since he's doing it from an angle that is not currently in vogue to be a white knight about.
I expect(ed) better from you guys. I would think you are all aware that it is important to be sensitive to the perspective of ALL players. I already have players (PLURAL) who do not want this card to be played because of the art. Nor is that an unexpected development -- I knew when I first saw it that the art was going to be a problem,
I think you are not aware of the broad cross section of gamers who play Magic if you do not understand the complaint. It is myopic and self serving to filter the question only through the lens through which YOU see Magic.
Good god, you sound like a whiny liberal. Does every picture have to come with a #triggerwarning or something? LOL. Art should not warrant exclusion of a card; the playability of the card should be the deciding factor.
I have a MTG-playing friend who was in an accident a few years ago and had to have his arm amputated. After seeing this post, I figured if anyone I knew would be offended by the art, he would have, but he hasn't.
I mean, small sample size and all but still. Desecration Demon has a demon holding a severed head of a king and I'd argue that art is more egregious of art offense for a cubeworthy card.
Regarding the card itself, pretty sweet and unless you're doing phoned in changes MTGO cube style, should be an easy addition. I've only bestowed it once so far but it's sweet even as a Tormented Hero.
Sorry I haven't taken the time to read all the posts here discussing this, so I don't know if I'm just repeating someone else, but this "threshold" for one drops for aggro is really more deeply rooted in accepted cube design than initially thought. I could go into extensive details with some cube design history, mathematics, and extensive links to testing (which if pressed I could do an article... but not my top priority right now), but really it all stems from control vs aggro. Without a dominant enough aggro to keep control in check, the cube environment can become heavily weighed towards control. What that means for cube designers is that you have a choice. You can either support aggro to rebalance the cube and let all archetypes thrive, or you can cut cards and make it a control orientated only cube (which is not necesarily bad, just not what a lot of people want, since it become stale very quickly with avid drafters). To rebalance aggro it comes back to the 20 cards vs 20 cards thing. To make an aggro deck that can achieve the tempo to overrun control before it stabilizes, you need a certain amount of early cards to do so (note the mana curve of that pool is also substantially smaller (0 - 4 cc vs 0 - 6+ cc)). If you can't overrun that stabilization then your deck is just not good.
Now there's multiple ways to lower the kill turn threshold, but from a design standpoint there's one easily trackable way to do it. By consistently playing a 2/1 on first turn, you essentially speed up the normal clock between that first turn and when you take out your opponent (if you don't understand why, if you did nothing there, then essentially you've shortened your # of turns to overrun your opponents stabilization by 1 turn, and the most damaging thing to do that turn is play a 2/X creature). Now this is awesome cause it not only quickens aggro, but this also allows you to lower the stabilization turn of your control, which in essence let's you play with better cards (cause better cards usually let you do this in some form or other) which is amazing for cube designers, cause it means we can play with all of our toys (we do this anyways, well powered cubes do, but I don't want to go into detail as to why that works (well maybe I do a bit, but it has to do with the timeframe that it takes to notice the unbalances and take advantage of them vs. the timeframe that we have as they release cards to update our cube and change the environment towards a more balanced one). So what do we do as cube designers that let's us take advantage of this? We figure out how many 1 drops does a aggro deck need to efficiently play one on first turn. So we have that number, now we figure out how many 1 drops do we need in the cube to ensure that an aggro deck can efficiently draft that many 1 drops if drafting. For wtwlf I think the number is 9 per color, which a lot of people base off of (Rather than doing the heavy work ourselves, get a rough estimate from someone who did the heavy work already for themselves). This is why we keep saying, don't cut, you need more one drops. We're not necessarily right, there's a huge amount of factors at hand that might make us wrong with any number of cubes, but in the vacuum of building a well designed cube, we are making educated suggestions that will be most likely right for the large majority of people, and the impact of someone who doesn't take our advice won't be as big as someone who does (as said cutting or not including a control card is not as big of a factor as cutting or not including an aggro card).
Anyways I hope all that made sense, I have problems with laying everything out logically and clearly. In essence to work the other way, by having enough 2/1's for one in your cube to consistently play a 2/1 on first turn in your draft deck, you speed up the aggressive nature of aggro and give them a higher probability of beating control before control stabilizes, which then in turn allows a wider range of deck possibilities, making your cube environment flavorful and fun for extensive repeated drafting.
I'm afraid it doesn't really answer my main question, though.
I know that 2-power 1-drops are essential to making aggro viable. I also know that making aggro viable is important to creating a balanced and fun cube environment.
My issue is that 2-power 1-drops are necessary, but not sufficient to make a good aggro deck. More specifically, I find my black aggro decks lacking, not because they have too few 2-power 1-drops, but because they lack the better high-end white and red aggro decks have. As a result, they have trouble closing out a game.
A typical game plays out with the black aggro deck playing a 1-drop, then on T2-T4 playing a variety of disruption spells (discard, mana denial, spot removal) crippling the opponent, but not putting a lot of pressure on. Eventually the opponent draws a blocker or a removal spell, stabilizes at 5-10 life and is favored to win the game.
The best cards black has to avoid such a scenario are Dark Confidant, Pain Seer and Braids, Cabal Minion, but that's too few cards to be reliable. I know a lot of people have a Pox package in this role, but I found that to be not good enough to justify the restrictive casting costs on those cards. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm experimenting with big fliers with drawbacks (Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, Abyssal Persecutor) to give black some pseudo-reach. I'll be sure to report back on how that goes.
Maybe I shouldn't have started this discussion in this thread. Gnarled Scarhide is a superb 1-drop, and it will be included in my list in addition to, not at the expense of, the other black 1-drops.
As I'm always saying, I find black to be the best aggro colour in my cube.
It has as many or more good one-drops as any other colour, and plenty of fantastic aggressive 2 and 3 drops (although until recently, the 3 drops were a problem, like they still are for red).
What really sets black apart is its disruption package. Being able to remove Wraths and planeswalkers from your opponents' hands is preferable to dealing with the fallout from one being played, and black has myriad ways of doing this. A single Thoughtseize or Inquisition can turn a good hand into a mediocre one, and remove your opponent's best answer to your horde. Sinkhole is the cheapest land destruction ever and can ruin many a good start. Mind Twist after an aggro start is its best use. Can't Thoughtseize the Wrath? Black also has fantastic resilient creatures like Bloodghast, or ones for rebuilding like Pack Rat. Outside green, you don't see too many.
Black has arguably the best supporting planeswalker for aggro decks in Liliana.
Black has crazy value enchantments in the likes Bitterblossom, Phyrexian Arena and Curse of Shallow Graves, and Nether Void is often every bit as good as Armageddon.
Black does card draw exceptionally well. Red and white, the other two real aggro colours, do not. Black is the last of these three that lacks reach, and my red and white aggro decks are best paired with black to get access to black's ridiculously efficient card draw at the cost of life. Black then benefits from the other colours' ability to remove artifacts and enchantments, which it has major issues with on its own. Not only that, but it has extremely relevant tutors in Demonic/Vampiric Tutor which allow you to search for your curve-topper or whatever else you need, another feature unique to black.
If you want to enforce mono-black aggro, you gain access to Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger. Necro is insane and the zombie is way above the curve for its cost. I don't run these two, but they are good.
All in all, there are some areas where black is slightly weaker than red or white (although not by a great deal), but makes up for that by having a ton of stuff that those colours can't even do at all. In most cases, those effects happen to be at their most potent in aggro.
Where does black lack? It could probably do with one of two more aggressive two drops, and I would have said the same for three drops until we recently got Ophiomancer, Herald of Torment and Master of the Feast. All of those are really good. White's agressive three drops are possibly the best package at any CMC in the cube, and black and (especially) red can't hold a candle to them. Other than this area, black is outstandingly well equipped for any aggro deck, outside of its inability to deal with certain permanent types. That usually means it gets paired with green or white splashes in our cube.
Between black's deep suite of both aggressive beaters, bountiful removal and powerful disruption spells it's been an aggro powerhouse for us. What it lacks in reach it makes up for in evasive/recursive threats and disruption/removal that are arguably more important.
We find black's card draw a more than acceptable form of reach. Top-decking burn spells to the face is all well and good, but it's criminally easy to keep your hand well supplied in black. Unless I want to run on an empty tank for Blood Scrivener. Black's long game, for an aggro deck, is pretty good. Of course it's still possible to Bob yourself to death.
Agree with what Goodking and wtwlf say about black aggro. It's really strong. It also slides easily into a Pox deck and that is some seriously disruptive poop right there. And I'm really happy to have the Scarhide, even if I'm having trouble deciding what to cut.
I see a lot of discussion of aggro on these boards that seem to focus on just one color. Are aggro decks usually one color in most cubes? Because we rarely see mono decks in my drafts (if we do, it's almost always mono black aggro). When I see people here saying "black aggro isn't good because black can't do X" or "green aggro is no good because it has no burn" I always think that's what other colors are for. I always assume that I'll be running two colors when I'm in aggro.
Ahh okay, sorry about the wall of text then. If that's the case upload your list! I love looking at lists and seeing what a person is running, and maybe help them with something design orientated.
Agree with what Goodking and wtwlf say about black aggro. It's really strong. It also slides easily into a Pox deck and that is some seriously disruptive poop right there. And I'm really happy to have the Scarhide, even if I'm having trouble deciding what to cut.
I see a lot of discussion of aggro on these boards that seem to focus on just one color. Are aggro decks usually one color in most cubes? Because we rarely see mono decks in my drafts (if we do, it's almost always mono black aggro). When I see people here saying "black aggro isn't good because black can't do X" or "green aggro is no good because it has no burn" I always think that's what other colors are for. I always assume that I'll be running two colors when I'm in aggro.
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Most mono-color decks are not that good. And when they are it's a special thing.
Ahh okay, sorry about the wall of text then. If that's the case upload your list! I love looking at lists and seeing what a person is running, and maybe help them with something design orientated.
Done. See my sig, and let me know any suggestions you may have (take note of the changes for new cards in the blog post).
I'm afraid it doesn't really answer my main question, though.
I know that 2-power 1-drops are essential to making aggro viable. I also know that making aggro viable is important to creating a balanced and fun cube environment.
My issue is that 2-power 1-drops are necessary, but not sufficient to make a good aggro deck. More specifically, I find my black aggro decks lacking, not because they have too few 2-power 1-drops, but because they lack the better high-end white and red aggro decks have. As a result, they have trouble closing out a game.
A typical game plays out with the black aggro deck playing a 1-drop, then on T2-T4 playing a variety of disruption spells (discard, mana denial, spot removal) crippling the opponent, but not putting a lot of pressure on. Eventually the opponent draws a blocker or a removal spell, stabilizes at 5-10 life and is favored to win the game.
The best cards black has to avoid such a scenario are Dark Confidant, Pain Seer and Braids, Cabal Minion, but that's too few cards to be reliable. I know a lot of people have a Pox package in this role, but I found that to be not good enough to justify the restrictive casting costs on those cards. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm experimenting with big fliers with drawbacks (Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, Abyssal Persecutor) to give black some pseudo-reach. I'll be sure to report back on how that goes.
Maybe I shouldn't have started this discussion in this thread. Gnarled Scarhide is a superb 1-drop, and it will be included in my list in addition to, not at the expense of, the other black 1-drops.
What would you suggest is needed to make black aggro good. I have tried to keep cards in my cube like Dauthi Marauder because it's always good to have shadow creatures that your opponent cannot block. I like having more creatures where I can attach a sword or jitte and they probably have no way of preventing that damage from happening. I am interested in the other new cards in this set like Master of the Feast. It seems like a good card being a 5/5 flyer for 3 mana despite the drawbacks.
Gnarled Scarhide is something I plan to add to my cube and will most likely be a 7th black 1 drop in my cube. I don't think I should be replacing any my other 1 drops. My friend has wondered what the purpose is of blacks other 2/1 creatures like Tormented Hero. Tormented Hero isn't a Zombie and what are the chances you are actually going to target it with something. I thought the whole purpose of cards like Tormented Hero or Gnarled Scarhide was they were 2/1 creatures for 1 mana. That 2 power is what makes them good. That is why many would run in green something like Jungle Lion. If you are trying to support aggro in your cube you want more 2/1 creatures where you can attack with them on turn 2.
Tell your friend that 2/1s or 2/2s with drawbacks used to be snap includes. for 360-450 cubes where we might consider bumping the worst drawback one drops. Tormented hero's bonus may never come up, but who cares? Over the weekend my buddy did finish a guy by downfalling his own hero, it was mostly showing off but it is better than a drawback. And human is the second best creature type in black, and has great synergy with other colors.
Scarhide has an actually useful upside to more than offset his drawback.
Tell your friend that 2/1s or 2/2s with drawbacks used to be snap includes. for 360-450 cubes where we might consider bumping the worst drawback one drops. Tormented hero's bonus may never come up, but who cares? Over the weekend my buddy did finish a guy by downfalling his own hero, it was mostly showing off but it is better than a drawback. And human is the second best creature type in black, and has great synergy with other colors.
Scarhide has an actually useful upside to more than offset his drawback.
What benefits do you get by having cards like Tormented Hero being a Human? I don't run things like Xanthrid Necromancer or Champion of the Parish in my cube. In black you are trying to run things such as more zombie creatures. I currently have 6 black 1 drops in my cube. I'm planning on adding Gnarled Scarhide as a 7th black 1 drop in my cube. Some had suggested that the worst out of those 2/2 creatures in black was the Vampire Lacerator. I'm running about a 400 card cube and I'm thinking I should just add the Ganrled Scarhide instead of replacing the Vampire Lacerator. Having more aggro 1 drops is good. I was going to add Herald of Torment because he isn't just a 3/3 flying creature for 3 mana. You can also you him to enchant another creature. This is what makes Gnarled Scarhide good. You can also use him to enchant one of your creatures you would attack with or use him on an opponents creatures so that creature cannot block. Gnarled Scarhide is more than just a 2/1 creature for 1 mana.
What benefits do you get by having cards like Tormented Hero being a Human? I don't run things like Xanthrid Necromancer or Champion of the Parish in my cube.
The other "human matters" cards you see in cube are Falkenrath Aristocrat and Mayor of Avabruck. On the other hand, it's still a drawback against Stromkirk Noble.
But yes, it's the second best black type, merely because only them and zombie have cards outside tribal cubes. Vampires have what, Bloodline Keeper? How many still play him?
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If your cube section of 80ish cards has 20 dedicated aggro cards, 20 dedicated control cards, and 40 general purpose cards, there's probably 1-2 good aggro configurations you can build, whereas there are quite a few more good control configurations that can be built from the same pool.
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I realize that. I was just disagreeing with Antknee's point that he'd add one drops "until aggro became too good". In my opinion, no amount of extra one drops will *by themselves* make aggro too good. On the contrary, there are other things aggro, and specifically black aggro, needs much more urgently to become better.
And about the last point, I don't disagree at all, but as a consequence, all aggro decks look alike. In your example, you'd need all 20 "aggro cards" to make a good aggro deck, i.e. all aggro decks are identical, but you could take 0-10 "aggro cards" and 10-20 "control cards" to make a control deck, so your control decks have much more diversity.
Well, we were talking about one-drops specifically. How many one-drops not named Grim Lavamancer (or Deathrite Shaman if you run that) are good in both control and aggro decks? That is precisely the point, each general-purpose card you replace with a two-power one-drop is one less broadly useful card and one more card that's only usable in one deck (aggro), so there is a real cost in terms of list space associated with them.
No matter how you look at it, 2-power 1-drops all do roughly the same thing. Each card they bump out of your list will do something different, oftentimes something unique.
Fair enough. Again, I'm not saying Gnarled Scarhide is not a good card (it will definitely make my list) and I'm also not saying that Wizards shouldn't print more two-power one-drops, I'm just disagreeing with the idea that this printing somehow makes (black) aggro decks significantly stronger.
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Can you say what is inappropriate about this art? I just don't see this as any more gory or inappropriate than many other cards so I don't understand the complaint. I don't see blood or anything so I am just confused by this. If you could let me know what you guys find uncomfortable about the art maybe I will understand where you are coming from. What aspects of the art are you complaining about?
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I'm pretty sure you're just trolling and not paying any attention to what's actually being said at all. But that's kinda always been the case with you, so I'm not surprised.
If I have 20 dedicated aggro creatures, how many aggro decks can I build from that pool? Maybe 2 if I'm lucky?
If I have 20 dedicated control creatures, how many control decks can I build from that pool? Closer to 4 or even 5?
So having more aggro cards and less control cards doesn't make control less playable or aggro overrepresented. Control can build competitive decks with a significantly lower number of dedicated tools than aggro can.
Well, if you're currently not reaching the saturation of 1cc aggro creatures you want for your aggro decks, having even 1 more make the pool is a significant boost to the strength of the deck. So I'd argue that every cube that is adding this to their existing suite rather than simply upgrading an existing creature is making a significant upgrade to the quality of their average black aggro decks.
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To do that, you need quite a few in your deck to make sure that you have them early enough.
To do that, you need to draft enough for your deck.
To do that, you need enough in the Cube.
To do that, you need aggressive decks to represent enough of the viable decks available in the drafts in order to not have a bunch of last picks.
To do that, you need more one-armed minotaurs.
We don't have enough, ergo I'm always taking applications for openings.
Until the aggro decks start dominating every draft or represent to large a piece of the meta, I'm always taking apps.
-AA
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Absolutely. One of the reasons Scarhide is so good is that he retains lots of value later in the game. It's an amazing one drop.
Still completely baffling as to the supposed offensive nature of the art. If there's a JIN art to be offended by, it's Brain Maggot... I mean, eww! I cannot conceive a situation where Scarhide would be offensive.
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He's taking the argument to an extreme end, trying to show how silly he thinks those complaints are, since he's doing it from an angle that is not currently in vogue to be a white knight about.
Anyway, card is good.
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Good god, you sound like a whiny liberal. Does every picture have to come with a #triggerwarning or something? LOL. Art should not warrant exclusion of a card; the playability of the card should be the deciding factor.
I mean, small sample size and all but still. Desecration Demon has a demon holding a severed head of a king and I'd argue that art is more egregious of art offense for a cubeworthy card.
Regarding the card itself, pretty sweet and unless you're doing phoned in changes MTGO cube style, should be an easy addition. I've only bestowed it once so far but it's sweet even as a Tormented Hero.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Sorry I haven't taken the time to read all the posts here discussing this, so I don't know if I'm just repeating someone else, but this "threshold" for one drops for aggro is really more deeply rooted in accepted cube design than initially thought. I could go into extensive details with some cube design history, mathematics, and extensive links to testing (which if pressed I could do an article... but not my top priority right now), but really it all stems from control vs aggro. Without a dominant enough aggro to keep control in check, the cube environment can become heavily weighed towards control. What that means for cube designers is that you have a choice. You can either support aggro to rebalance the cube and let all archetypes thrive, or you can cut cards and make it a control orientated only cube (which is not necesarily bad, just not what a lot of people want, since it become stale very quickly with avid drafters). To rebalance aggro it comes back to the 20 cards vs 20 cards thing. To make an aggro deck that can achieve the tempo to overrun control before it stabilizes, you need a certain amount of early cards to do so (note the mana curve of that pool is also substantially smaller (0 - 4 cc vs 0 - 6+ cc)). If you can't overrun that stabilization then your deck is just not good.
Now there's multiple ways to lower the kill turn threshold, but from a design standpoint there's one easily trackable way to do it. By consistently playing a 2/1 on first turn, you essentially speed up the normal clock between that first turn and when you take out your opponent (if you don't understand why, if you did nothing there, then essentially you've shortened your # of turns to overrun your opponents stabilization by 1 turn, and the most damaging thing to do that turn is play a 2/X creature). Now this is awesome cause it not only quickens aggro, but this also allows you to lower the stabilization turn of your control, which in essence let's you play with better cards (cause better cards usually let you do this in some form or other) which is amazing for cube designers, cause it means we can play with all of our toys (we do this anyways, well powered cubes do, but I don't want to go into detail as to why that works (well maybe I do a bit, but it has to do with the timeframe that it takes to notice the unbalances and take advantage of them vs. the timeframe that we have as they release cards to update our cube and change the environment towards a more balanced one). So what do we do as cube designers that let's us take advantage of this? We figure out how many 1 drops does a aggro deck need to efficiently play one on first turn. So we have that number, now we figure out how many 1 drops do we need in the cube to ensure that an aggro deck can efficiently draft that many 1 drops if drafting. For wtwlf I think the number is 9 per color, which a lot of people base off of (Rather than doing the heavy work ourselves, get a rough estimate from someone who did the heavy work already for themselves). This is why we keep saying, don't cut, you need more one drops. We're not necessarily right, there's a huge amount of factors at hand that might make us wrong with any number of cubes, but in the vacuum of building a well designed cube, we are making educated suggestions that will be most likely right for the large majority of people, and the impact of someone who doesn't take our advice won't be as big as someone who does (as said cutting or not including a control card is not as big of a factor as cutting or not including an aggro card).
Anyways I hope all that made sense, I have problems with laying everything out logically and clearly. In essence to work the other way, by having enough 2/1's for one in your cube to consistently play a 2/1 on first turn in your draft deck, you speed up the aggressive nature of aggro and give them a higher probability of beating control before control stabilizes, which then in turn allows a wider range of deck possibilities, making your cube environment flavorful and fun for extensive repeated drafting.
My 450 Cube
Thanks for taking the time to write this all out.
I'm afraid it doesn't really answer my main question, though.
I know that 2-power 1-drops are essential to making aggro viable. I also know that making aggro viable is important to creating a balanced and fun cube environment.
My issue is that 2-power 1-drops are necessary, but not sufficient to make a good aggro deck. More specifically, I find my black aggro decks lacking, not because they have too few 2-power 1-drops, but because they lack the better high-end white and red aggro decks have. As a result, they have trouble closing out a game.
A typical game plays out with the black aggro deck playing a 1-drop, then on T2-T4 playing a variety of disruption spells (discard, mana denial, spot removal) crippling the opponent, but not putting a lot of pressure on. Eventually the opponent draws a blocker or a removal spell, stabilizes at 5-10 life and is favored to win the game.
The best cards black has to avoid such a scenario are Dark Confidant, Pain Seer and Braids, Cabal Minion, but that's too few cards to be reliable. I know a lot of people have a Pox package in this role, but I found that to be not good enough to justify the restrictive casting costs on those cards. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm experimenting with big fliers with drawbacks (Herald of Torment, Master of the Feast, Abyssal Persecutor) to give black some pseudo-reach. I'll be sure to report back on how that goes.
Maybe I shouldn't have started this discussion in this thread. Gnarled Scarhide is a superb 1-drop, and it will be included in my list in addition to, not at the expense of, the other black 1-drops.
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
It has as many or more good one-drops as any other colour, and plenty of fantastic aggressive 2 and 3 drops (although until recently, the 3 drops were a problem, like they still are for red).
What really sets black apart is its disruption package. Being able to remove Wraths and planeswalkers from your opponents' hands is preferable to dealing with the fallout from one being played, and black has myriad ways of doing this. A single Thoughtseize or Inquisition can turn a good hand into a mediocre one, and remove your opponent's best answer to your horde. Sinkhole is the cheapest land destruction ever and can ruin many a good start. Mind Twist after an aggro start is its best use. Can't Thoughtseize the Wrath? Black also has fantastic resilient creatures like Bloodghast, or ones for rebuilding like Pack Rat. Outside green, you don't see too many.
Black has arguably the best supporting planeswalker for aggro decks in Liliana.
Black has crazy value enchantments in the likes Bitterblossom, Phyrexian Arena and Curse of Shallow Graves, and Nether Void is often every bit as good as Armageddon.
Black does card draw exceptionally well. Red and white, the other two real aggro colours, do not. Black is the last of these three that lacks reach, and my red and white aggro decks are best paired with black to get access to black's ridiculously efficient card draw at the cost of life. Black then benefits from the other colours' ability to remove artifacts and enchantments, which it has major issues with on its own. Not only that, but it has extremely relevant tutors in Demonic/Vampiric Tutor which allow you to search for your curve-topper or whatever else you need, another feature unique to black.
If you want to enforce mono-black aggro, you gain access to Necropotence and Geralf's Messenger. Necro is insane and the zombie is way above the curve for its cost. I don't run these two, but they are good.
All in all, there are some areas where black is slightly weaker than red or white (although not by a great deal), but makes up for that by having a ton of stuff that those colours can't even do at all. In most cases, those effects happen to be at their most potent in aggro.
Where does black lack? It could probably do with one of two more aggressive two drops, and I would have said the same for three drops until we recently got Ophiomancer, Herald of Torment and Master of the Feast. All of those are really good. White's agressive three drops are possibly the best package at any CMC in the cube, and black and (especially) red can't hold a candle to them. Other than this area, black is outstandingly well equipped for any aggro deck, outside of its inability to deal with certain permanent types. That usually means it gets paired with green or white splashes in our cube.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I see a lot of discussion of aggro on these boards that seem to focus on just one color. Are aggro decks usually one color in most cubes? Because we rarely see mono decks in my drafts (if we do, it's almost always mono black aggro). When I see people here saying "black aggro isn't good because black can't do X" or "green aggro is no good because it has no burn" I always think that's what other colors are for. I always assume that I'll be running two colors when I'm in aggro.
Cheers,
rant
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Ahh okay, sorry about the wall of text then. If that's the case upload your list! I love looking at lists and seeing what a person is running, and maybe help them with something design orientated.
Most mono-color decks are not that good. And when they are it's a special thing.
My 450 Cube
Done. See my sig, and let me know any suggestions you may have (take note of the changes for new cards in the blog post).
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
Gnarled Scarhide is something I plan to add to my cube and will most likely be a 7th black 1 drop in my cube. I don't think I should be replacing any my other 1 drops. My friend has wondered what the purpose is of blacks other 2/1 creatures like Tormented Hero. Tormented Hero isn't a Zombie and what are the chances you are actually going to target it with something. I thought the whole purpose of cards like Tormented Hero or Gnarled Scarhide was they were 2/1 creatures for 1 mana. That 2 power is what makes them good. That is why many would run in green something like Jungle Lion. If you are trying to support aggro in your cube you want more 2/1 creatures where you can attack with them on turn 2.
Scarhide has an actually useful upside to more than offset his drawback.
The other "human matters" cards you see in cube are Falkenrath Aristocrat and Mayor of Avabruck. On the other hand, it's still a drawback against Stromkirk Noble.
But yes, it's the second best black type, merely because only them and zombie have cards outside tribal cubes. Vampires have what, Bloodline Keeper? How many still play him?