I don't like Exalted Angel as a 3cc creature. I wouldn't play her if she were only a gray ogre. Without four total mana, she's not cube worthy.
I would classify Rout at 5cc and treat the instant speed cost as gravy.
Would we lump creatures and spells both into this new special category? Am I ranking Volrath's Stronghold, Tombstalker, and Profane Command all together? I'm not sure how much I like that. I like ranking all the 1, 2, 3 etc drops because it's nice to see the top tier alongside the bottom tier stuff. It gives people options. A category with all of these different types just seems like a bunch of cards that don't relate to each other outside of color identity.
I like a 0cc category, an X spell category, and a land category for each color more than trying to lump all these odd casting costs together.
Why would Spellskite be colorless? I've literally never played this in a nonblue deck.
I also don't like ranking the Phyrexian mana cards in colorless. It's rare, at least in my group, for these cards to be played outside of their colors. It happens occasionally, but not often enough to count them as colorless cards.
Herald of Torment would be a 3cc creature in my list. I would treat all Bestow creatures this way.
Slaughter Pact should just be a 3cc black spell.
Greater Gargadon suspends at one mana. It's never cast for more than that. Honestly it plays more like a 1cc spell than a 1cc creature, but it's still 1cc and I ranked it as such in my vote.
I agree that you don't always have to be green to take advantage of Gaea's Cradle, but it certainly helps. I would rank this as a green land.
Batterskull is a colorless equipment. Mortarpod as well.
Far//Away and other split cards would simply be a multicolor card. I'm not sure of the worth of ranking the multicolor cards so soon after the power rankings, since the votes will be quite similar. There's certainly not a need of going through all the casting costs for each guild.
I think the same could be said for guild lands. We just voted on this a few months ago and not much has changed since then.
Porcelain Legionnaire gets grabbed by aggro, no matter if it has access to white or not. It's a tough call since everyone classifies it one way or the other, but for the purposes of this exercise perhaps we can consider ranking the card (and the others in question) in both slots. Where Legionnaire would rank if it was a white 2-drop (or is it 3?), and where it would rank if it was a colourless 2-drop. That way if someone was to use this thread as a reference they can see where it would rank whichever way they choose to classify the card.
I think this should be classified as a morph creature at 3.
Kor Sanctifiers (3 or 4?)
Without kicker, no one would play this card. I think we should classify stuff as their kicker & miracle costs, since that's really what we want to be doing.
I'd classify Angel at 4 too, since that's really what I want to be doing.
What do you guys think about having a special voting section for cards that play at multiple costs?
I don't think it's necessary, and I don't think there's enough cards to justify their own voting section. If it has a variable cost, you can count it as X.
Morph at 3 cmc I think will be the norm
I don't think any morphs should just be lumped in as 3's, as the card is justified for inclusion based on the ability to turn it face-up. So if the cost to turn the card face-up is >3, I don't think 3 is the appropriate place for it. For cards that have morph cost ≤3, 3 is fine.
I always thought of them as 2/2's for 3 that had an 'ability' with a cost.
Ya, but the cost on that 'ability' is the reason it makes the deck. Same reason a card like Lingering Souls would be counted as an Orzhov card. It can be played as a white spell, but the reason it's good is because it can be flashed back in decks with access to both colors. Just like Morph. It can be played as a 3cc colorless creature, but the only reason they're any good is because of their face-up abilities. So I think paying attention to the costs and colors of those abilities is relevant.
I think other topics that warrant discussion in this vote should be whether or not to rank multicolor cards and guild aligned lands. We've already ranked the multicolor 1cc creatures, but honestly the ranking didn't seem too relevant to anything at all. Almost none of the cards in my top ten compete for the same slot, so I don't know what data we get from that ranking. I think the multicolor ranking is best left as Top X Guild Y Cards. There's more to be gained from a list of the ten best Azorius cards than there is from a list of the ten best 1cc creatures in the guild section. The same could be said for guild aligned lands.
Another thing to bring up is how we'll rank artifacts. I sort them separately based on function: Utility, Creatures, Mana, Equipment, and Land. I could see the value in voting for the Top X Ycc Utility Artifacts or the Top X Ycc Artifact Creatures. I could also see just voting for Top X Ycc Artifacts and lump them all together. We could also do something like a Top 20 Non Guild Non Color Aligned Lands to go along with that.
As to the other vote I think it should ranked like this for the different mechanics.
Bestow: Ignore the Bestow cost. (Herald of Torment is a 3cc black creature.)
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Delve: Counts as an Xcc spell or creature. (Tombstalker is an Xcc creature.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Phyrexian Mana: Counts as a colored card with a cmc that treats the Phyrexian mana as -2 life. (Phyrexian Metamorph is a 3cc blue creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with a varying casting cost count as X spells. (Dig Through Time is an Xcc blue spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Lands that are heavily aligned with a specific color count as that color. (Gaea's Cradle is a green land. Volrath's Stronghold is a black land.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
I always thought of them as 2/2's for 3 that had an 'ability' with a cost.
Ya, but the cost on that 'ability' is the reason it makes the deck. Same reason a card like Lingering Souls would be counted as an Orzhov card. It can be played as a white spell, but the reason it's good is because it can be flashed back in decks with access to both colors. Just like Morph. It can be played as a 3cc colorless creature, but the only reason they're any good is because of their face-up abilities. So I think paying attention to the costs and colors of those abilities is relevant.
The only reason to play Joraga Treespeaker is for its Level 1 ability. No one wants a 1/1 vanilla in the deck. So it should be counted as a 2cc creature?
I don't see why. Enclave Cryptologist gets played over Merfolk Looter in most cubes because even though it costs 1UU before you can loot for the first time with Cryptologist, it can be cast on turn 1 and tapped to loot on turn 2. A similar principle applies with Joraga Treespeaker. You're investing 1GG before you're tapping it for mana, but you can tap it for mana on turn 2 which makes it significantly different from, say, Priest of Titania.
Enclave Cryptologist and Joraga Treespeaker make the cut in most cubes because they're one drops even if they require more than a one mana investment. They should be evaluated as 1CMC creatures.
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Joraga Treespeaker can be cast as a Joraga Treespeaker for G. It's then a 1/1 creature with a really good ability that makes it good enough for cube. This is the same concept as other creatures with printed abilities like Fauna Shaman or Stoneforge Mystic. The ability is a big reason why they make the cut in cube, but it shouldn't be evaluated in the casting cost. Morph creatures are different, though. They can't exist as their face up version without the Morph cost available. This is why it's best to evaluate them based on that cost. If the Morph cost is less than or equal to three, you need at least three mana available. Then you can cast it face down and flip it up when it's relevant. If the Morph cost is more than three, however, you need that amount of mana available before that card can be flipped. Without that amount available, you're stuck with a face down Morph that can't do anything.
I always thought of them as 2/2's for 3 that had an 'ability' with a cost.
Ya, but the cost on that 'ability' is the reason it makes the deck. Same reason a card like Lingering Souls would be counted as an Orzhov card. It can be played as a white spell, but the reason it's good is because it can be flashed back in decks with access to both colors. Just like Morph. It can be played as a 3cc colorless creature, but the only reason they're any good is because of their face-up abilities. So I think paying attention to the costs and colors of those abilities is relevant.
The only reason to play Joraga Treespeaker is for its Level 1 ability. No one wants a 1/1 vanilla in the deck. So it should be counted as a 2cc creature?
No, because it doesn't really impact the evaluation of the card at all. Every deck that can cast it will realistically expect to be able to activate the ability. Same with all the other cheap creatures with cheap activation costs.
Let's look at a card like Akroma, Angel of Fury. Decks that expect to be playing 3-drops get no value from this creature if you classify it as a 3-drop. Because it functionally costs 6 mana before it's worthy of inclusion, or before it could expect to see play in a deck. Same goes for any creature with a face-up morph cost >3. If I have a glut of more important 4cc plays in my deck, Angel is far less likely to make the cut because it interferes with my ability to turn it face-up. If the activation cost is 3 mana or less, classifying it as a 3-drop makes sense because you can functionally use the card if you can reach that mana. If the morph cost is 4 or more, I think it needs to be evaluated on the impact it'll have later in the curve--especially in decks with low curves. I don't think that matters with Treespeaker or Cryptologist, since decks anticipate having access to 2 mana.
The problem with ignoring the functional cost is that you no loner get functional data. Why do I care if Greater Gargadon is red's best 10-drop? That means absolutely nothing to me as a cube manager, which is the point of this exercise.
Agreed. It seems like a lot of special rulings when they're all together, but there aren't many cards per color that require a special classification. We just outline those rules prior to each color and it's not that complicated.
I feel like as you go through the tier levels of cards in cube, it only gets harder to see where one tier stops and another begins. A Top Ten, however, makes this a little bit easier. It also seems easier on the organizer to tally. Personally I like the top ten lists. In the end I like looking at the results and finding cards that I may not be running. It's even better when I see a card I missed completely that's being ranked in the top five or better.
What if instead of doing a top 10 for each we do a tiered analysis.
This sounds more complicated and ultimately less helpful than Top 10s for each CMC for each color. At most CMC slots, we're running 10 or less, and I think it will be really helpful to see what the community as a whole sees as best in each slot. It's going to take a while to complete, but as long as people are willing to participate as they did for one-drops last week we can do this.
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Okay guys, so here's a giant post about the classification stuff.
We're gonna go with a top 10 for each cmc, color, and creature/spell.
We're going to re-do the 1 cmc creature votes so we can get Greater Gargadon and Sarcomancy in there.
Rules for our classification system here:
Bestow: Ignore the Bestow cost. (Herald of Torment is a 3cc black creature.)
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
I made some very small edits (mostly just deleting stuff that the alternate cost section fixes, like Delve)
IMPORTANT FOOTNOTE:
If you want to vote on a card in multiple places, you can. That means if you think Capsize is a 3cmc card as opposed to a 6cmc card, you may vote for it in the 3cmc section. You can also vote for it in both places. I’ll tally up your vote just the same. Keeping some amount of user fluidity is good for understanding where people are ranking things, and how it stacks up against other stuff.
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Based on all of the above, here’s a list of common cubeable cards:
1 cmc creatures / spells:
Terminus = white spell.
Ancestral Vision = blue spell.
Sarcomancy = black creature.
Burst Lightning = red spell.
Firebolt = red spell.
Greater Gargadon = red creature.
Vines of Vastwood = green spell.
Dismember = colorless spell.
2 cmc creatures / spells:
Eternal Dragon = white spell.
Spellskite = blue creature.
Ninja of the Deep Hours = blue creature.
Riftwing Cloudskate = blue creature.
Bitterblossom = black spell.
Shrine of Burning Rage = red spell.
Pyrewild Shaman = red spell.
Fire//Ice = multicolored spell.
Porcelain Legionnaire = colorless creature.
Signets = colorless spells. (signets get ONE spot, not 10)
3 cmc creatures / spells:
Spectral Procession = white creature.
Crystal Shard = blue spell.
Vedalken Shackles = blue spell.
Thassa, God of the Sea = blue spell.
Willbender = blue creature.
Herald of Torment = black creature.
Slaughter Pact = black spell.
Boon Satyr = green creature.
Birthing Pod = green spell.
Call of the Herd = green creature.
Krosan Tusker = green spell.
Phyrexian Metamorph = colorless creature.
4 cmc creatures / spells:
Exalted Angel = white creature.
Kor Sanctifiers = white creature.
Lashwrithe = black creature.
Purphoros, God of the Forge = red spell.
5 cmc creatures / spells:
Rout = white spell.
Pact of Negation = blue spell.
6+ cmc creatures / spells:
Capsize = blue spell.
Ashcloud Phoenix = red creature.
Rude Awakening = green spell.
0 cmc cards:
Force of Will
Daze
Fireblast
Snuff Out
Mutagenic Growth counts as a colorless card.
Mental Misstep counts as a colorless card.
Noxious Revival counts as a colorless card.
Lands:
Anything that has a mana symbol in its activation cost is played as that color. Faerie Conclave, Academy Ruins, and Shelldock Isle all count as blue lands instead of colorless. Volrath’s Stronghold is black, etc.
Kessig Wolf Run = multicolored land.
Gaea’s Cradle = colorless land.
Tolarian Academy = colorless land.
Alternate/Multiple cost cards:
ALL OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF SPELLS WILL BE VOTED ON IN THIS CATEGORY:
1) X spells (Bonefire of the Damned, Unexpectedly Absent, Bane of the Living, Engineered Explosives, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, etc).
2) Delve spells (Tombstalker, Treasure Cruise, etc).
3) Split cards with different costs (Fire//Ice counts as a 2 cmc spell, but Life//Death or Far//Away will be voted on here).
These cards are difficult to classify anywhere else, so I’m just throwing them all together and we can rank them against each other here. I know it’s kind of odd to be sizing up Tombstalker vs. Bane of the Living, but these cards are significantly harder to rank other places because of their varying costs.
Conspiracies and silver-bordered cards will be the last section.
I can get behind this, but there are two things I disagree with.
1.) Phyrexian cards as colorless.
2.) Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy as colorless
It's somewhat rare for us to see Phyrexian cards in an off color deck. Not that it never happens, but I'd venture to guess that most of my Metamorph decks are somewhat blue in nature. I do understand why some people choose to classify them in colorless, though, so if that's how it's to be, then well, that's how it's to be. If you do want Phyrexian cards as colorless, though, you should take my note about how to classify them out or change it up to fit the guideline. That's not how I classify them at all. Even Mutagenic Growth would be a green card in my cube.
Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy make green and blue mana respectively. In my book that would put them into the green and blue sections. Certainly there's an argument that a Boros deck that makes a bunch of creatures can benefit from a land like Gaea's Cradle. That still doesn't change the fact that Cradle is better in a Selesnya deck that can make a bunch of creatures using mana that's much more relevant. Again, though, if we are to vote on these as colorless, I'll do my best to try to imagine how I would rank them in that section.
Another thing to note is you left Tooth and Nail off the 6+ cmc section. I think this is a good starter list and a good guideline to base anything that's questionable on.
I also agree with you guys, and I would've put it with the black spells.
However, it's Colby's project, and if that's where he wants to out it, that's where we should put it. These projects require a ton of energy and effort to run, so if he has a system he wants to follow and we can just get moving on it, we probably should.
I can get behind this, but there are two things I disagree with.
1.) Phyrexian cards as colorless.
Phyrexian Metamorph is definitely not blue. I play that card in everything. Phyrexian Legionnaire is definitely not white, I play that guy in every aggro deck, doesn't necessarily need to be white. Mutagenic Growth might as well have been every color except green and blue in my cube in the past few months.
Some of them make more sense to classify them with their color. Maybe Dismember would be better as a black spell, but I have played Dismember in enough non-black decks to make it more comparable to other spells. Black decks obviously have more incentive to take the card, but I've seen a lot of Dismembers in Boros decks.
Some cards like Birthing Pod are rarely seen outside of decks associated with their Phyrexian Mana color, so it makes sense to classify them with their color. I guess we could have an entire series of arguments about whether certain Phyrexian Mana cards are more or less associated with their color, but I think the splits I made were pretty good.
It's somewhat rare for us to see Phyrexian cards in an off color deck. Not that it never happens, but I'd venture to guess that most of my Metamorph decks are somewhat blue in nature. I do understand why some people choose to classify them in colorless, though, so if that's how it's to be, then well, that's how it's to be. If you do want Phyrexian cards as colorless, though, you should take my note about how to classify them out or change it up to fit the guideline. That's not how I classify them at all. Even Mutagenic Growth would be a green card in my cube.
My bad, I thought I removed the Phyrexian Mana part because I was going a different way on it. Done.
Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy make green and blue mana respectively. In my book that would put them into the green and blue sections. Certainly there's an argument that a Boros deck that makes a bunch of creatures can benefit from a land like Gaea's Cradle. That still doesn't change the fact that Cradle is better in a Selesnya deck that can make a bunch of creatures using mana that's much more relevant. Again, though, if we are to vote on these as colorless, I'll do my best to try to imagine how I would rank them in that section.
2.) Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy as colorless
Again, same thing here. There's nothing about Tolarian Academy that makes it a blue card. It produces blue mana, which certainly gives you more incentive to go blue, but I have played the card in a mono-white deck that had a ton of mana artifacts, enchantments, balance, and things to ramp into like planeswalkers, wurmcoil engines, etc. I got a Tolarian Academy in pack 3 and played it and it was sweet for me. This happens a lot around here.
There's nothing on the card that requires you to be piloting a blue deck to play an Academy. Same with Gaea's Cradle. Again, we can argue how often these occurances happen and whatnot etc.
I would also rather compare these cards to other colorless lands like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors etc rather than comparing them to Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave.
Another thing to note is you left Tooth and Nail off the 6+ cmc section. I think this is a good starter list and a good guideline to base anything that's questionable on.
very strange comparing Dismember to mana rocks and equips, instead of other kill spells, discards and the other black 1cc spells.
Dismember might be better as a 1 cmc black spell, but I think that is too confining, as I mentioned earlier. Dismember is such good premium removal for aggressive decks that it's best comparisons are stuff like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, etc. In black decks, it's often not 1 mana removal, so it actually doesn't make a ton of sense for it to be fighting against Disfigure when a it's played like a Murder a lot.
I actually considered classifying Dismember as just some weird alternate cost card, but figured that had too many problems. It's a tricky card for this kind of voting for sure.
These projects require a ton of energy and effort to run, so if he has a system he wants to follow and we can just get moving on it, we probably should.
Yeah, it's a bit more than I originally thought it would be.
The good news is if we're only upset about two things on the list, awesome. That means that I did this stuff at least 99% in line with what the community at large would have.
However, it's Colby's project, and if that's where he wants to out it, that's where we should put it. These projects require a ton of energy and effort to run, so if he has a system he wants to follow and we can just get moving on it, we probably should.
My thoughts exactly. No need to have the age old debates about where on the curve Exalted Angel goes or what section the Phyrexian cards go in. Let's just vote. If a card is good enough, it'll make the cut no matter where we classify it.
The good news is if we're only upset about two things on the list, awesome. That means that I did this stuff at least 99% in line with what the community at large would have.
Probably it's because the others will only show in higher cost
I kid. No system would be perfect, and this is reasonable enough to work. Keep going on.
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I would classify Rout at 5cc and treat the instant speed cost as gravy.
Would we lump creatures and spells both into this new special category? Am I ranking Volrath's Stronghold, Tombstalker, and Profane Command all together? I'm not sure how much I like that. I like ranking all the 1, 2, 3 etc drops because it's nice to see the top tier alongside the bottom tier stuff. It gives people options. A category with all of these different types just seems like a bunch of cards that don't relate to each other outside of color identity.
I like a 0cc category, an X spell category, and a land category for each color more than trying to lump all these odd casting costs together.
Why would Spellskite be colorless? I've literally never played this in a nonblue deck.
I also don't like ranking the Phyrexian mana cards in colorless. It's rare, at least in my group, for these cards to be played outside of their colors. It happens occasionally, but not often enough to count them as colorless cards.
Herald of Torment would be a 3cc creature in my list. I would treat all Bestow creatures this way.
Slaughter Pact should just be a 3cc black spell.
Greater Gargadon suspends at one mana. It's never cast for more than that. Honestly it plays more like a 1cc spell than a 1cc creature, but it's still 1cc and I ranked it as such in my vote.
I agree that you don't always have to be green to take advantage of Gaea's Cradle, but it certainly helps. I would rank this as a green land.
Batterskull is a colorless equipment. Mortarpod as well.
Far//Away and other split cards would simply be a multicolor card. I'm not sure of the worth of ranking the multicolor cards so soon after the power rankings, since the votes will be quite similar. There's certainly not a need of going through all the casting costs for each guild.
I think the same could be said for guild lands. We just voted on this a few months ago and not much has changed since then.
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Spellskite is blue for me.
Greater Gargadon is without a doubt 1 cc creature. I never hardcast it during its entire life cycle in my cube.
A land and X category sounds good for me. Not sure about 0 cc spell, but there aren't too much of those anyhow.
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I'd classify Angel at 4 too, since that's really what I want to be doing.
I don't think it's necessary, and I don't think there's enough cards to justify their own voting section. If it has a variable cost, you can count it as X.
I don't think any morphs should just be lumped in as 3's, as the card is justified for inclusion based on the ability to turn it face-up. So if the cost to turn the card face-up is >3, I don't think 3 is the appropriate place for it. For cards that have morph cost ≤3, 3 is fine.
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Ya, but the cost on that 'ability' is the reason it makes the deck. Same reason a card like Lingering Souls would be counted as an Orzhov card. It can be played as a white spell, but the reason it's good is because it can be flashed back in decks with access to both colors. Just like Morph. It can be played as a 3cc colorless creature, but the only reason they're any good is because of their face-up abilities. So I think paying attention to the costs and colors of those abilities is relevant.
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All the more reason to rank some cards in multiple slots given that this exercise is about ranking and not about classification.
Another thing to bring up is how we'll rank artifacts. I sort them separately based on function: Utility, Creatures, Mana, Equipment, and Land. I could see the value in voting for the Top X Ycc Utility Artifacts or the Top X Ycc Artifact Creatures. I could also see just voting for Top X Ycc Artifacts and lump them all together. We could also do something like a Top 20 Non Guild Non Color Aligned Lands to go along with that.
As to the other vote I think it should ranked like this for the different mechanics.
Bestow: Ignore the Bestow cost. (Herald of Torment is a 3cc black creature.)
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Delve: Counts as an Xcc spell or creature. (Tombstalker is an Xcc creature.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Phyrexian Mana: Counts as a colored card with a cmc that treats the Phyrexian mana as -2 life. (Phyrexian Metamorph is a 3cc blue creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with a varying casting cost count as X spells. (Dig Through Time is an Xcc blue spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Lands that are heavily aligned with a specific color count as that color. (Gaea's Cradle is a green land. Volrath's Stronghold is a black land.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
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The only reason to play Joraga Treespeaker is for its Level 1 ability. No one wants a 1/1 vanilla in the deck. So it should be counted as a 2cc creature?
Enclave Cryptologist and Joraga Treespeaker make the cut in most cubes because they're one drops even if they require more than a one mana investment. They should be evaluated as 1CMC creatures.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
Joraga Treespeaker can be cast as a Joraga Treespeaker for G. It's then a 1/1 creature with a really good ability that makes it good enough for cube. This is the same concept as other creatures with printed abilities like Fauna Shaman or Stoneforge Mystic. The ability is a big reason why they make the cut in cube, but it shouldn't be evaluated in the casting cost. Morph creatures are different, though. They can't exist as their face up version without the Morph cost available. This is why it's best to evaluate them based on that cost. If the Morph cost is less than or equal to three, you need at least three mana available. Then you can cast it face down and flip it up when it's relevant. If the Morph cost is more than three, however, you need that amount of mana available before that card can be flipped. Without that amount available, you're stuck with a face down Morph that can't do anything.
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No, because it doesn't really impact the evaluation of the card at all. Every deck that can cast it will realistically expect to be able to activate the ability. Same with all the other cheap creatures with cheap activation costs.
Let's look at a card like Akroma, Angel of Fury. Decks that expect to be playing 3-drops get no value from this creature if you classify it as a 3-drop. Because it functionally costs 6 mana before it's worthy of inclusion, or before it could expect to see play in a deck. Same goes for any creature with a face-up morph cost >3. If I have a glut of more important 4cc plays in my deck, Angel is far less likely to make the cut because it interferes with my ability to turn it face-up. If the activation cost is 3 mana or less, classifying it as a 3-drop makes sense because you can functionally use the card if you can reach that mana. If the morph cost is 4 or more, I think it needs to be evaluated on the impact it'll have later in the curve--especially in decks with low curves. I don't think that matters with Treespeaker or Cryptologist, since decks anticipate having access to 2 mana.
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EDIT: Rounding up data today and posting it soonish. I've had a giant workload outside of magic recently guys!
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
MTGS Average Peasant Cube 2023 Edition
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This sounds more complicated and ultimately less helpful than Top 10s for each CMC for each color. At most CMC slots, we're running 10 or less, and I think it will be really helpful to see what the community as a whole sees as best in each slot. It's going to take a while to complete, but as long as people are willing to participate as they did for one-drops last week we can do this.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
We're gonna go with a top 10 for each cmc, color, and creature/spell.
We're going to re-do the 1 cmc creature votes so we can get Greater Gargadon and Sarcomancy in there.
Rules for our classification system here:
Bloodrush: Counts as the Bloodrush cost. (Pyrewild Shaman is a 2cc red spell.)
Buyback: If the Buyback cost is a mana cost, that cost is included. (Capsize is a 6cc blue spell. Forbid is still a 3cc blue spell.)
Entwine: Counts with the Entwine cost included. (Tooth and Nail is a 9cc green spell.)
Kicker: Ignored on spells. Included on creatures. (Burst Lightning is a 1cc red spell. Kor Sanctifiers is a 4cc white creature.)
Miracle: Counts as the Miracle cost. (Terminus is a 1cc white spell. Bonfire of the Damned is an Xcc red spell.)
Morph: Morph cost less than 3 or a variable Morph cost, it counts as 3cc. Morph cost more than 3, it counts as the Morph cost. (Willbender is a 3cc blue creature. Exalted Angel is a 4cc white creature.)
Multikicker: Counts as an X spell. (Everflowing Chalice is an Xcc artifact.)
Ninjutsu: Counts as the Ninjutsu cost. (Ninja of the Deep Hours is a 2cc blue creature.)
Suspend: Counts as the suspend cost. (Greater Gargadon is a 1cc red creature.)
Noncreature cards that that put a specific number of creatures into play, count as creatures. Noncreature cards that put a varying number of creatures into play do not count as creatures. (Sarcomancy is a 1cc black creature. Bitterblossom is a 2cc black spell.)
Cards with an alternate cost like discarding additional cards or losing life that can be played without paying any mana count as 0cc cards. (Force of Will is a 0cc blue spell.)
Cards with an delayed cost that can be cast for free now, but paid for later count as the cost that is to be paid later. (Slaughter Pact is a 3cc black spell.)
Colorless cards that are heavily aligned with a specific color (mention that color in the card text, have an ability activated with with that color of mana, or mention that specific land type) count as that color. (Shrine of Burning Rage is a red spell.)
Colorless hybrid mana counts as the lowest possible cmc. (Spectral Procession is a 3cc creature.)
Creature cards that play more like spells than creatures due to an alternate function, count as a spell with a cmc equal to the cost of the secondary ability. (Krosan Tusker is a 3cc green spell.)
Gods are enchantments, not creatures.
Spells with X in the casting cost count as X spells regardless of how variable the X can be. (Unexpectedly Absent is still an X spell, even though it can be cast with X at 0 for some value.)
I made some very small edits (mostly just deleting stuff that the alternate cost section fixes, like Delve)
If you want to vote on a card in multiple places, you can. That means if you think Capsize is a 3cmc card as opposed to a 6cmc card, you may vote for it in the 3cmc section. You can also vote for it in both places. I’ll tally up your vote just the same. Keeping some amount of user fluidity is good for understanding where people are ranking things, and how it stacks up against other stuff.
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Based on all of the above, here’s a list of common cubeable cards:
1 cmc creatures / spells:
Terminus = white spell.
Ancestral Vision = blue spell.
Sarcomancy = black creature.
Burst Lightning = red spell.
Firebolt = red spell.
Greater Gargadon = red creature.
Vines of Vastwood = green spell.
Dismember = colorless spell.
2 cmc creatures / spells:
Eternal Dragon = white spell.
Spellskite = blue creature.
Ninja of the Deep Hours = blue creature.
Riftwing Cloudskate = blue creature.
Bitterblossom = black spell.
Shrine of Burning Rage = red spell.
Pyrewild Shaman = red spell.
Fire//Ice = multicolored spell.
Porcelain Legionnaire = colorless creature.
Signets = colorless spells. (signets get ONE spot, not 10)
3 cmc creatures / spells:
Spectral Procession = white creature.
Crystal Shard = blue spell.
Vedalken Shackles = blue spell.
Thassa, God of the Sea = blue spell.
Willbender = blue creature.
Herald of Torment = black creature.
Slaughter Pact = black spell.
Boon Satyr = green creature.
Birthing Pod = green spell.
Call of the Herd = green creature.
Krosan Tusker = green spell.
Phyrexian Metamorph = colorless creature.
4 cmc creatures / spells:
Exalted Angel = white creature.
Kor Sanctifiers = white creature.
Lashwrithe = black creature.
Purphoros, God of the Forge = red spell.
5 cmc creatures / spells:
Rout = white spell.
Pact of Negation = blue spell.
6+ cmc creatures / spells:
Capsize = blue spell.
Ashcloud Phoenix = red creature.
Rude Awakening = green spell.
0 cmc cards:
Force of Will
Daze
Fireblast
Snuff Out
Mutagenic Growth counts as a colorless card.
Mental Misstep counts as a colorless card.
Noxious Revival counts as a colorless card.
Lands:
Anything that has a mana symbol in its activation cost is played as that color. Faerie Conclave, Academy Ruins, and Shelldock Isle all count as blue lands instead of colorless. Volrath’s Stronghold is black, etc.
Kessig Wolf Run = multicolored land.
Gaea’s Cradle = colorless land.
Tolarian Academy = colorless land.
Alternate/Multiple cost cards:
ALL OF THE FOLLOWING TYPES OF SPELLS WILL BE VOTED ON IN THIS CATEGORY:
1) X spells (Bonefire of the Damned, Unexpectedly Absent, Bane of the Living, Engineered Explosives, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, etc).
2) Delve spells (Tombstalker, Treasure Cruise, etc).
3) Split cards with different costs (Fire//Ice counts as a 2 cmc spell, but Life//Death or Far//Away will be voted on here).
These cards are difficult to classify anywhere else, so I’m just throwing them all together and we can rank them against each other here. I know it’s kind of odd to be sizing up Tombstalker vs. Bane of the Living, but these cards are significantly harder to rank other places because of their varying costs.
Conspiracies and silver-bordered cards will be the last section.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
1.) Phyrexian cards as colorless.
2.) Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy as colorless
It's somewhat rare for us to see Phyrexian cards in an off color deck. Not that it never happens, but I'd venture to guess that most of my Metamorph decks are somewhat blue in nature. I do understand why some people choose to classify them in colorless, though, so if that's how it's to be, then well, that's how it's to be. If you do want Phyrexian cards as colorless, though, you should take my note about how to classify them out or change it up to fit the guideline. That's not how I classify them at all. Even Mutagenic Growth would be a green card in my cube.
Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy make green and blue mana respectively. In my book that would put them into the green and blue sections. Certainly there's an argument that a Boros deck that makes a bunch of creatures can benefit from a land like Gaea's Cradle. That still doesn't change the fact that Cradle is better in a Selesnya deck that can make a bunch of creatures using mana that's much more relevant. Again, though, if we are to vote on these as colorless, I'll do my best to try to imagine how I would rank them in that section.
Another thing to note is you left Tooth and Nail off the 6+ cmc section. I think this is a good starter list and a good guideline to base anything that's questionable on.
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Yes. It felt very strange comparing Dismember to mana rocks and equips, instead of other kill spells, discards and the other black 1cc spells.
However, it's Colby's project, and if that's where he wants to out it, that's where we should put it. These projects require a ton of energy and effort to run, so if he has a system he wants to follow and we can just get moving on it, we probably should.
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My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Phyrexian Metamorph is definitely not blue. I play that card in everything. Phyrexian Legionnaire is definitely not white, I play that guy in every aggro deck, doesn't necessarily need to be white. Mutagenic Growth might as well have been every color except green and blue in my cube in the past few months.
Some of them make more sense to classify them with their color. Maybe Dismember would be better as a black spell, but I have played Dismember in enough non-black decks to make it more comparable to other spells. Black decks obviously have more incentive to take the card, but I've seen a lot of Dismembers in Boros decks.
Some cards like Birthing Pod are rarely seen outside of decks associated with their Phyrexian Mana color, so it makes sense to classify them with their color. I guess we could have an entire series of arguments about whether certain Phyrexian Mana cards are more or less associated with their color, but I think the splits I made were pretty good.
My bad, I thought I removed the Phyrexian Mana part because I was going a different way on it. Done.
Again, same thing here. There's nothing about Tolarian Academy that makes it a blue card. It produces blue mana, which certainly gives you more incentive to go blue, but I have played the card in a mono-white deck that had a ton of mana artifacts, enchantments, balance, and things to ramp into like planeswalkers, wurmcoil engines, etc. I got a Tolarian Academy in pack 3 and played it and it was sweet for me. This happens a lot around here.
There's nothing on the card that requires you to be piloting a blue deck to play an Academy. Same with Gaea's Cradle. Again, we can argue how often these occurances happen and whatnot etc.
I would also rather compare these cards to other colorless lands like Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors etc rather than comparing them to Treetop Village and Faerie Conclave.
It's 6+ mana whether it's entwined or not.
Dismember might be better as a 1 cmc black spell, but I think that is too confining, as I mentioned earlier. Dismember is such good premium removal for aggressive decks that it's best comparisons are stuff like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, etc. In black decks, it's often not 1 mana removal, so it actually doesn't make a ton of sense for it to be fighting against Disfigure when a it's played like a Murder a lot.
I actually considered classifying Dismember as just some weird alternate cost card, but figured that had too many problems. It's a tricky card for this kind of voting for sure.
Yeah, it's a bit more than I originally thought it would be.
The good news is if we're only upset about two things on the list, awesome. That means that I did this stuff at least 99% in line with what the community at large would have.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
My thoughts exactly. No need to have the age old debates about where on the curve Exalted Angel goes or what section the Phyrexian cards go in. Let's just vote. If a card is good enough, it'll make the cut no matter where we classify it.
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Probably it's because the others will only show in higher cost
I kid. No system would be perfect, and this is reasonable enough to work. Keep going on.