If Beast Within only gave a 2/2, I would cube it over Song of the Dryads. However, a 3/3 turned out to be too relevant too often. Almost half the time, I used Beast on one of my own permanents because I couldn't afford to give my opponent a creature of that size.
And the trick to reduce the value of the "free" forest is to not use Song on a small target and ramp your opponent to Titan mana, but rather to hold it and use it on the Titan itself.
This card is worse than Oblivion Ring, but Oblivion Ring is a 360 staple. If this is a 360 borderline card, it'll still make every cube that isn't 360. It's also in a color that (somewhat arguably) needs the effect much more.
I sort of agree with this, but i) Oblivion Ring is of course 360 playable, but it's a very fair and unexciting card in that format to say the least ii) this is actually substantially worse than Oblivion Ring. Ramping your opponent is no trivial drawback.
Beast Within also has substantial drawbacks, but at least it has some advantages other Vindicate variants don't have.
I feel like Bramblecrush is usually going to be better than this card. The only advantage this has is that it costs G less, but if you cast this on turn 3 then you're ramping your opponent at a stage of the game where you really don't want to be doing so.
There are enough effects in cube that can deal with enchantments that I'd be pretty wary at running this card. That said, I'll still test it just because green has so little removal.
I feel like Bramblecrush is usually going to be better than this card. The only advantage this has is that it costs G less, but if you cast this on turn 3 then you're ramping your opponent at a stage of the game where you really don't want to be doing so.
There are enough effects in cube that can deal with enchantments that I'd be pretty wary at running this card. That said, I'll still test it just because green has so little removal.
This is way better than Bramblecrush because you're going to be killing a huge portion of the time.
That is true. The power level is not even close to Path but, the versatility in a color without Oblivion Ring is good. It's certainly better than Beast Within.
I'm still certain this card is on the power level of Oblivion Ring, and clearly testable in 360 lists.
Aren't all of these arguments people have against this card also the same arguments against Path to Exile, yet I see Path in almost all of your cubes.
Costing 1 and being an instant is quite a bit better, especially since you cant "take back" a Path to Exile by destroying Path. Not hitting PWs is worse, but at that point we're asking for, like, one of the best 1 mana spells of all time if it were to hit all the same permanents. Comparing this card to Path is apples to hamburgers.
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I'm surprised we're putting this much stock into ramping our opponent 1. I'd much rather face down 1 extra mana than soooooo many of the cards in cube. Is Jitte worse than a land? Inferno Titan? Elspeth? While the land issue will of course come up, the trade off seems fine as forcing your opponent to have the next card is better than having minimal/no options to deal with the current.
Aren't all of these arguments people have against this card also the same arguments against Path to Exile, yet I see Path in almost all of your cubes.
No. One mana at instant speed is worlds away from three mana at sorcery speed. At the vulnerability to Disenchant, and the cards are just not in the same league.
Whoops, I just noticed that I still have Bow of Nylea in my cube, that'll be coming out for this. I love Green's version of removal, I'll play all of it (Lignify, Beast Within, this)
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Just saying that this card is the most cubeworthly of all the similar green effects like Beast Within and Bramble Crush. The Path analogy might have been blown out of proportion.
I feel like this crushes Best Within and Bramblecrush. Those who like the higher upside(and worse downside) of Beast Within will keep it. But for me it was often bad removal as it was a great gotcha trick. This may be a bad o-ring but last time I checked, the best removal color was willing to play 3 o-rings at 360. So I am thinking that my 450 can get away with 1 bad o-ring in the worst removal color.
And I have no idea how anyone would cube bramblecrush over this.
I feel like this crushes Best Within and Bramblecrush. Those who like the higher upside(and worse downside) of Beast Within will keep it. But for me it was often bad removal as it was a great gotcha trick. This may be a bad o-ring but last time I checked, the best removal color was willing to play 3 o-rings at 360. So I am thinking that my 450 can get away with 1 bad o-ring in the worst removal color.
And I have no idea how anyone would cube bramblecrush over this.
You couldn't be more right. Creature removal in green has never been this good.
I'm curious if black will get some tools akin to Gate to Phyrexia to combat artifact and enchantments or something new.
Also if you are an oddball running an edh cube like me, this thing hoses commanders so freaking hard it's disgusting. "Wow, that's a nice nekusar. Have a forest."
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I'm assuming this card takes away all abilities, if it just adds the ability to tap for Green and takes away the taret's color, it's terrible. A card can be a Forest and a creature at the same time, after all (Dryad Arbor).
Also if you are an oddball running an edh cube like me, this thing hoses commanders so freaking hard it's disgusting. "Wow, that's a nice nekusar. Have a forest."
I'm afraid you are misunderstanding the card. The permanent will keep all its abilities not connected to a card type, so especially Nekusar, the Mindrazer won't mind at all.
If this were the case, Song would do nothing but give your opponent extra options (or it'd be a strange ramp card). Since it seems to be hailed everywhere as removal, I think the more intuitive interpretation (turn something into a tree, it stops being whatever it was) is the correct one.
We put it in the cube yesterday and it was key in surviving against an aggro deck by transforming a hasty Master of the Feast, a scenario in which any of the other mentioned cards in this thread would have been either completely ineffective (Bramblecrush) or not enough the turn the tide (Beast Within). So the first test was positive for us.
Also if you are an oddball running an edh cube like me, this thing hoses commanders so freaking hard it's disgusting. "Wow, that's a nice nekusar. Have a forest."
I'm afraid you are misunderstanding the card. The permanent will keep all its abilities not connected to a card type, so especially Nekusar, the Mindrazer won't mind at all.
This is not correct. The enchanted permanent simply becomes a colorless forest which means that it stops being the original card. Whatever is written on the card gets replaced with:
Name: Forest
Color: Colorless
Types: Basic Land - Forest
Ability: T: Add G to your mana pool.
If the original card were allowed to keep some (or even all) of its properties, this needs be specified on Song of the Dryads. It isn't though, thus making it a strong (if a bit quirky) removal.
What I don't get is why people think this is better than Beast within.
Because a 3/3 beast is a legitimate threat in the cube, and this card is significantly better creature removal which is what green needs the most of anyways. When I absolutely have to purge a threat from my opponent's board, Beast Within is terrible at doing that job. This card will always remove their threat, and replace it with something that can't attack and block. The forest will still be useful for them, but I'm far less afraid of that than I am of a 3/3 beast most of the time.
I'm a big proponent of Beast Within. Having something else for green that can deal with those trouble permanents (and also not have the same permanent-type limitations as Naturalizers) seems like a no-brainer to me. Also covers some ground that Beast Within can't, which makes it even more playable.
The only aspect of Beast Within I miss with this is the instant speed. A Forest is much less scary than a 3/3. It's funny because in cube where we play the best magic cards of all time, one might think a 3/3 isn't much, but it turns out that the board is rather empty more often than it is stalled and crowded, and then a 3/3 can kill you quite quickly. And equipment is also a thing.
This is of course not as good as Path to exile, but experience with Path has shown that the extra land sometimes doesn't matter at all, especially during the late game. Song of the Dryads similarly gets better in the late game, whereas Beast Within is always a threat.
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And the trick to reduce the value of the "free" forest is to not use Song on a small target and ramp your opponent to Titan mana, but rather to hold it and use it on the Titan itself.
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I sort of agree with this, but i) Oblivion Ring is of course 360 playable, but it's a very fair and unexciting card in that format to say the least ii) this is actually substantially worse than Oblivion Ring. Ramping your opponent is no trivial drawback.
Beast Within also has substantial drawbacks, but at least it has some advantages other Vindicate variants don't have.
I'm not particularly intrested in this card.
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There are enough effects in cube that can deal with enchantments that I'd be pretty wary at running this card. That said, I'll still test it just because green has so little removal.
This is way better than Bramblecrush because you're going to be killing a huge portion of the time.
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I'm still certain this card is on the power level of Oblivion Ring, and clearly testable in 360 lists.
Costing 1 and being an instant is quite a bit better, especially since you cant "take back" a Path to Exile by destroying Path. Not hitting PWs is worse, but at that point we're asking for, like, one of the best 1 mana spells of all time if it were to hit all the same permanents. Comparing this card to Path is apples to hamburgers.
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I'm surprised we're putting this much stock into ramping our opponent 1. I'd much rather face down 1 extra mana than soooooo many of the cards in cube. Is Jitte worse than a land? Inferno Titan? Elspeth? While the land issue will of course come up, the trade off seems fine as forcing your opponent to have the next card is better than having minimal/no options to deal with the current.
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No. One mana at instant speed is worlds away from three mana at sorcery speed. At the vulnerability to Disenchant, and the cards are just not in the same league.
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And I have no idea how anyone would cube bramblecrush over this.
I'm curious if black will get some tools akin to Gate to Phyrexia to combat artifact and enchantments or something new.
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WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
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RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I'm assuming this card takes away all abilities, if it just adds the ability to tap for Green and takes away the taret's color, it's terrible. A card can be a Forest and a creature at the same time, after all (Dryad Arbor).
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We put it in the cube yesterday and it was key in surviving against an aggro deck by transforming a hasty Master of the Feast, a scenario in which any of the other mentioned cards in this thread would have been either completely ineffective (Bramblecrush) or not enough the turn the tide (Beast Within). So the first test was positive for us.
I think it's going to be a fine card for cube.
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Name: Forest
Color: Colorless
Types: Basic Land - Forest
Ability: T: Add G to your mana pool.
If the original card were allowed to keep some (or even all) of its properties, this needs be specified on Song of the Dryads. It isn't though, thus making it a strong (if a bit quirky) removal.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Because a 3/3 beast is a legitimate threat in the cube, and this card is significantly better creature removal which is what green needs the most of anyways. When I absolutely have to purge a threat from my opponent's board, Beast Within is terrible at doing that job. This card will always remove their threat, and replace it with something that can't attack and block. The forest will still be useful for them, but I'm far less afraid of that than I am of a 3/3 beast most of the time.
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Green is definitely the color that needs removal the most to bring it up to par with the other colors. It's easily the worst removal color.
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Neither did I, but this card looks good. It's very much not Beast Within.
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This is of course not as good as Path to exile, but experience with Path has shown that the extra land sometimes doesn't matter at all, especially during the late game. Song of the Dryads similarly gets better in the late game, whereas Beast Within is always a threat.