but if you consider that you could have had a card that could actually do something (even in it's WCS) with that draft pick, that makes Shelldock Isle a pretty bad first pick.
Are you saying Shelldock Isle doesn't "actually do something" ? It's BCS is one of the greatest in the entire cube, and you're sacrificing extremely little to pick Shelldock. It's a land, which makes it basically like a free pickup for your deck. Our blue decks always have at least four excess cuttables (largely because we play a powered 360), so Shelldock Isle is almost like taking two cards in one pick because you don't have to cut your 24th card.
Honestly, talking about Shelldock Isle as a potential P1P1 is just silly. I can't imagine how abysmal my opening pack would have to be in order for me to take a Shelldock Isle with my very first pick.
Would you tell that to the channelfireball pro who said it was one of the most criminally underdrafted cards in the entire 720 modo cube, picked it extremely early, and proceeded to crush with it?
and anyway, the post that got us started talking about Shelldock Isle rated it as the 7th strongest blue card. I know we aren't supposed to judge rankings of other players but...that just ain't right. I really love Shelldock Isle, but there is NO WAY i would EVER take it P1P1.
Yep, that was me, and yes, I completely stand by that ranking. It's been absolutely fantastic for us. I absolutely would take it over every card I listed below it P1P1, although obviously passing some of those cards would be difficult to do.
It doesn't sound like you really love Shelldock Isle.
-------
About the WCS:
Coming into play tapped is less of a deal for blue than it is for any other color in the cube. I agree that if it's WCS is coming into play tapped, that's a point in its favor. It's BCS is ridiculously good (whatever that may be), and it doesn't take up a spell slot in your deck. I think the card is nuts good and surprised other people don't think so.
In any case, we've had some good discussion about it, which I'm happy about.
Would you tell that to the channelfireball pro [...] ?
I would. A) being a pro doesn't necessarily mean your opinion on cube is gospel, and B) even if it's the right call for the 720 MODO cube, that means next to nothing in terms of how it will play in other cube environments.
Isle spends at least half its games never activating, and half of the times it activates it's either too little too late or activating in games I'm already crushing. So the number of activations where it contributes to a win where I otherwise would've lost is minuscule compared to the number of times it's a really bad Island. Is it capable of doing broken things? Of course! That's what makes it a fun inclusion for the cube. But I don't think it should be anywhere near the top 20.
Regarding Shelldock Isle: Actually, its WCS is coming into play tapped and locking away (one of) your finisher(s) without being able to regain access to that card. It's a huge inconvenience when it occurs and I'd say that it's more common not to activate SDI than to activate SDI. In one example, I saw Ponder, land, land, Sun Titan and put the Titan under the Isle. However that left me just a Meloku as a finisher in that deck. Exiling a potentially useful card can be detrimental unless you play it for free, particularly in decks that have the means to go looking for the big finishers when needed (blue's draw/filter and black's tutoring), unless you have a lot of redundancy going on with all effects in your deck.
Of course you could always lock down that Ponder, but is that really worth it? Not picking the bomb makes its BCS much worse.
I have no problem with SDI making the list. For a long time it existed on the bubble for me of including it. Then I started to shift my thinking on the card from 'Control-Tool' to 'Combo-Piece'. Sure it can be used in control decks but it is just ok there, potentially locking away a finisher as Goodking said.
The real power is thinking of it as a card like tinker, that when exploited is just nuts. I have been building up my U/R spells matter deck, and pushing for greater redundancy across all of the combo decks. Tinker/Big Ramp/Storm/Upheaval/Wildfire can all use SDI to get it done. There are fewer things better than free and while not truely free(It really costs you UU) it is the most potentially powerful spell land in cube.(outside of Library of Alexandria)
Now if you cube has a very low curve, and your cube has less combo or ramp support I can see it going way down in value. I just would have no problem picking it first. For me it might be close to #10-#15 for blue first picks but remember that is just saying it is the top 20% of cube for first pick criteria.
As an aside, I like how much of a debate the 5 drops are. It seems like if I were new to cube the message is to first picka blue 5 drop. I don't currently run memory adept, meloku, or bribery just because I can't have all 5 drops, but it is an embarrassment of riches when you play blue. I also rank the blue 5 drops lower just because they there so much goodness in the 4-6 drop for blue and I only need so many.
Would you tell that to the channelfireball pro [...] ?
I would. A) being a pro doesn't necessarily mean your opinion on cube is gospel, and B) even if it's the right call for the 720 MODO cube, that means next to nothing in terms of how it will play in other cube environments.
I'd certainly give someone who has won Grand Prix(s?) and Pro Tours more of my ear than the average cuber, I believe they've earned that.
I'd argue Shelldock Isle is better in a smaller list than in a larger one. You have a higher percentage of picking up cards that work extremely well with it, as well as more powerful effects to put under it. Perhaps it's why we really love it at powered 360.
Isle spends at least half its games never activating, and half of the times it activates it's either too little too late or activating in games I'm already crushing. So the number of activations where it contributes to a win where I otherwise would've lost is minuscule compared to the number of times it's a really bad Island. Is it capable of doing broken things? Of course! That's what makes it a fun inclusion for the cube. But I don't think it should be anywhere near the top 20.
You just said Evolving Wilds is a nearly 100% maindeck percentage:
But why does it get nearly 100% maindeck percentage?
Because it's a solid and reasonable inclusion for most decks. Just like Evolving Wilds (which pretty much does have 100% maindeck percentage). Doesn't mean I want to pick it up P1P1.
Why are your decks maindecking Evolving Wilds nearly 100% of the time, but not Shelldock Isle? (serious question, not being antagonistic)
The way I see it is because blue is the color that gets hurt the least by ETBT lands (slowest color), I'm not exactly sure why Evolving Wilds is getting so much play in your group but the far superior Shelldock Isle is considered a bad island.
Regarding Shelldock Isle: Actually, its WCS is coming into play tapped and locking away (one of) your finisher(s) without being able to regain access to that card. It's a huge inconvenience when it occurs and I'd say that it's more common not to activate SDI than to activate SDI. In one example, I saw Ponder, land, land, Sun Titan and put the Titan under the Isle. However that left me just a Meloku as a finisher in that deck. Exiling a potentially useful card can be detrimental unless you play it for free, particularly in decks that have the means to go looking for the big finishers when needed (blue's draw/filter and black's tutoring), unless you have a lot of redundancy going on with all effects in your deck.
Of course you could always lock down that Ponder, but is that really worth it? Not picking the bomb makes its BCS much worse.
We almost always pick the bomb. Unless you're casting Demonic Tutor specifically for Sun Titan, you actually didn't lose out on much.
If Hideaway was the bottom four cards of your library instead of the top four cards, I don't think you would be making this argument. The four cards on the bottom of your library are just as random as the ones on the top four of your library. Perhaps the Isle removing four cards that would have been detrimental to your game happens just as often as it hurts you (law of large numbers).
Saying, "Well, I would have drawn Sun Titan this game and that would have won me the game, but instead I died in the time that I would have been able to cast it normally, but not off of Shelldock Isle" is irrelevant because the draws are completely random. There are very few times when I've died with mana to cast the card under Shelldock Isle, it would have won me the game, I could have tutored for it, no other card would have been a sufficient replacement, and no library ever got to 20 cards. That is a lot of requirements to happen to say that the card under Shelldock Isle being hideaway'd actually affected the game.
Except getting the top 4 instead of bottom 4 is way better because you can use Brainstorm effects, Vampiric Tutor effects, Sensei's Divining Top, etc to ensure you get something you want under the Isle.
Hope that makes sense and I'm not coming off as a douchebag.
Now, I do think a fine argument is if Shelldock Isle gets wastelanded, you lose out on the card forever. That I think is an appropriate argument against it, but running a 360 where the chances of that happening are higher than in a 450/540/630 etc, I'd say it has happened only a few times on one hand in years that a Shelldock Isle has been wastelanded where:
1) The Shelldock Isle hid something that the player absolutely needed (A Tendrils of Agony where it's their only storm kill)
2) The Shelldock Isle got wastelanded
3) The player lost the game because of it and would have won otherwise
I'd certainly give someone who has won Grand Prix(s?) and Pro Tours more of my ear than the average cuber, I believe they've earned that.
I think it depends entirely on context. They can say something that's completely contradictory to my experience with the card in the cube. Suddenly my experiences are wrong because their opinion says so? I value their opinions, but I often find their opinions clashing with my first-hand experiences with cards. Most people that manage a cube list have 10x the cube experience that a random pro does with the cube. And cube card evaluation is all about context and experience.
Quote from ColbyCube »
I'd argue Shelldock Isle is better in a smaller list than in a larger one. You have a higher percentage of picking up cards that work extremely well with it, as well as more powerful effects to put under it. Perhaps it's why we really love it at powered 360.
Smaller cubes tend to be much faster. I'd argue that the bigger and slower the cube is, the better Shelldock will perform. Aggro decks being sculpted from a powered 360 cube should end games long before Isle is even available to be activated.
Quote from ColbyCube »
Why are your decks maindecking Evolving Wilds nearly 100% of the time, but not Shelldock Isle? (serious question, not being antagonistic)
Because one fixes my mana, and the other one doesn't. Isle won't see play in decks that are planning on winning the game early (all U/x aggro/tempo decks will exclude it, for example). Whereas universally playable mana fixing is useful in a greater percentage of decks.
Quote from ColbyCube »
The way I see it is because blue is the color that gets hurt the least by ETBT lands (slowest color), I'm not exactly sure why Evolving Wilds is getting so much play in your group but the far superior Shelldock Isle is considered a bad island.
Explained above. Fixing is universally valuable. Isle is only good in slow blue decks. When Isle's at it's worst, it's a really bad Island. Wilds/Expanse perform exactly the same every time.
And again, maindeck percentage is not a factor of how P1P1 worthy a card is. Like I said before, I cube Isle, and I think it's a fine card. But it doesn't just automatically go into every deck, and it isn't worthy of being first-picked.
but if you consider that you could have had a card that could actually do something (even in it's WCS) with that draft pick, that makes Shelldock Isle a pretty bad first pick.
Are you saying Shelldock Isle doesn't "actually do something" ? It's BCS is one of the greatest in the entire cube, and you're sacrificing extremely little to pick Shelldock. It's a land, which makes it basically like a free pickup for your deck. Our blue decks always have at least four excess cuttables (largely because we play a powered 360), so Shelldock Isle is almost like taking two cards in one pick because you don't have to cut your 24th card.
Of course Shelldock Isle has a great BCS. And of course you'll always play SDI when you draft it. But you ARE sacrificing a LOT to pick Shelldock Isle, when you consider that you could have picked something else with your P1P1.
Honestly, talking about Shelldock Isle as a potential P1P1 is just silly. I can't imagine how abysmal my opening pack would have to be in order for me to take a Shelldock Isle with my very first pick.
Would you tell that to the channelfireball pro who said it was one of the most criminally underdrafted cards in the entire 720 modo cube, picked it extremely early, and proceeded to crush with it?
Yes I would. Picking up a SDI early is not the same as picking it P1P1, and I would bet anything that LSV would never take a SDI P1P1 (assuming he is actually trying to win and not just doing silly things like he tends to do).
And remember, just because something is underdrafted (which I agree, SDI is underdrafted, at least it was before LSV made that top 8 list a few years ago) does not mean that it is near the top of the list in terms of best cards.
and anyway, the post that got us started talking about Shelldock Isle rated it as the 7th strongest blue card. I know we aren't supposed to judge rankings of other players but...that just ain't right. I really love Shelldock Isle, but there is NO WAY i would EVER take it P1P1.
Yep, that was me, and yes, I completely stand by that ranking. It's been absolutely fantastic for us. I absolutely would take it over every card I listed below it P1P1, although obviously passing some of those cards would be difficult to do.
It doesn't sound like you really love Shelldock Isle.
I do love Shelldock Isle! I'm always happy to draft it! Just not P1P1. Ever. There are so many cards that you ranked lower that are better a much larger percentage of the time. Think of how often you cast Upheaval with a few mana floating, and DON'T win that game. How often does that even happen? Now think about how often you play a SDI and see four cards that don't really impact the game, even when cast at instant speed for UU. I'm not saying it happens every time, but I would take the Upheaval (or the Shackles, or Snappy, or pretty much every other card in your top 20) P1P1.
you're sacrificing extremely little to pick Shelldock
If you're ranking it on this list, you're sacrificing your P1P1. I'd say that's more than "extremely little".
..........
@ColbyCube: Remember, I'm not saying that Isle is a bad card. It's just not one I'd consider for a P1P1 choice based on my experiences with it. Its powerlevel will vary from cube to cube, and there are cubes out there where it has a chance to be a tremendous consistent powerhouse, and it might crack the top 20 for blue in those cubes. But I don't have enough experience with it in that setting to have it influence my choice. The opportunity cost of taking it is low because it's a land that produces colored mana. But that benefit is mitigated if I have to use a first pick to get it. I cube with the card myself, and it has a fantastic BCS. However, its average performance (for me) is too low for me to consider first-picking it. And Maindeck percentage is an important factor for evaluating a card's value in the cube, but not necessarily for it's P1P1 value.
We almost always pick the bomb. Unless you're casting Demonic Tutor specifically for Sun Titan, you actually didn't lose out on much.
As would I.
If Hideaway was the bottom four cards of your library instead of the top four cards, I don't think you would be making this argument.
Yes I would, and it would still be just as relevant.
The four cards on the bottom of your library are just as random as the ones on the top four of your library. Perhaps the Isle removing four cards that would have been detrimental to your game happens just as often as it hurts you (law of large numbers).
Correct. This is predicated on the fact that you apparently think that I am unable to distinguish cards on the bottom and top of the library. The second part is irrelevant because if you have access to tutoring effects, you won't be searching for cards detrimental to your game.
Saying, "Well, I would have drawn Sun Titan this game and that would have won me the game, but instead I died in the time that I would have been able to cast it normally, but not off of Shelldock Isle" is irrelevant because the draws are completely random.
Yes, draws are random. However, in a deck capable of looking for its bomb, preemptively removing it is then a very concrete drawback if you can't then activate the isle. In a deck without any tutoring or filtering capacity, you are correct, because draws are random. In a deck with these capacities, saying that is not irrelevant any more. Which is actually the majority of decks in which I would run SDI.
Except getting the top 4 instead of bottom 4 is way better because you can use Brainstorm effects, Vampiric Tutor effects, Sensei's Divining Top, etc to ensure you get something you want under the Isle.
Correct.
Hope that makes sense and I'm not coming off as a douchebag.
Only in the sense that you think I would be stupid enough to fall into 'it's stuck under the Isle and I would have drawn it two turns later' trap (i.e. Schrodinger's card), which is either pretty insulting or a straw-man argument. Yes, it could have been anywhere in the stack, but the fact it's suddenly not available any more becomes relevant when there are means available of accessing a card irrespective of deck position (Natural Order, any tutor) and filter effects to search actively for the same bomb you would put under the isle are also potentially influenced. It is not a major argument against the card, but to say that its WCS is 'merely' a ETBT Island is simply not true in the majority of decks. Although an ETBT non-basic Island is already much worse indeed than a regular Island unless you activate it, so it may be almost a moot point.
Now, I do think a fine argument is if Shelldock Isle gets wastelanded, you lose out on the card forever. That I think is an appropriate argument against it, but running a 360 where the chances of that happening are higher than in a 450/540/630 etc, I'd say it has happened only a few times on one hand in years that a Shelldock Isle has been wastelanded where:
That can also happen and is frustrating. However, if you never activate the SDI, you also lost out on the card forever. Sometimes that's OK, but occasionally it really isn't OK. Like when I have tutors, NO, copious filtering, or Tinker and would have looked for that exact card with 25 cards in my library. If it's an effect with redundancy (you have a Wrath under the SDI and a DoJ in the library) this drawback is pretty much negated by being able to dig for the duplicate effect.
Lots of responses! I'm excited for this discussion.
Quote from "wtwlf123 »
I think it depends entirely on context. They can say something that's completely contradictory to my experience with the card in the cube. Suddenly my experiences are wrong because their opinion says so? I value their opinions, but I often find their opinions clashing with my first-hand experiences with cards. Most people that manage a cube list have 10x the cube experience that a random pro does with the cube. And cube card evaluation is all about context and experience.
I wasn't saying that your experiences are nullified -- just that some of the top players in the world consider Shelldock Isle to be criminally underdrafted in the modo cube. It may not be underdrafted in your cube, and it may be very underdrafted in someone else's cube. I think the point I was trying to make is that I think a lot of people undervalue the card in general. I'd agree with you that I'd take a cube manager's opinion very highly, but when it comes to pick orders and understanding what is best in a particular cube format, pros do extremely well with formats they know, much better than the average cuber.
Quote from "wtwlf123 »
Smaller cubes tend to be much faster. I'd argue that the bigger and slower the cube is, the better Shelldock will perform. Aggro decks being sculpted from a powered 360 cube should end games long before Isle is even available to be activated.
This hasn't been our experience. We run a very fast and very small cube. Our aggro section is great! Take a look, I think we run almost all of the aggro guys you do (at least the very aggressive ones @ 1cmc and 2cmc) but with 90 cards less. Shelldock Isle is definitely at its worse against aggro, but none of us ever board it out.
Shelldock Isle may be great in our cube because we run a ton of Draw 7s compared to the average 360 (or probably any other cube), and we only support red, white, and black as aggro colors.
Quote from "wtwlf123 »
Because one fixes my mana, and the other one doesn't. Isle won't see play in decks that are planning on winning the game early (all U/x aggro/tempo decks will exclude it, for example). Whereas universally playable mana fixing is useful in a greater percentage of decks.
I can see that, but I'd still question what decks you're using Evolving Wilds in. They're probably the same ones you're using Shelldock Isle in.
All I'm saying is ETBT is not that big of a drawback, and if you're running Evolving Wilds you're likely to agree with that.
Quote from "wtwlf123 »
Explained above. Fixing is universally valuable. Isle is only good in slow blue decks. When Isle's at it's worst, it's a really bad Island. Wilds/Expanse perform exactly the same every time.
Isle is not only good in slow blue decks, we use it in storm (where it's absolutely incredible) and 3+ color planeswalker decks all the time. Evolving Wilds is good in those decks too, actually.
Quote from "preppypoof »
but if you consider that you could have had a card that could actually do something (even in it's WCS) with that draft pick, that makes Shelldock Isle a pretty bad first pick.
Quote from "preppypoof »
Of course Shelldock Isle has a great BCS. And of course you'll always play SDI when you draft it. But you ARE sacrificing a LOT to pick Shelldock Isle, when you consider that you could have picked something else with your P1P1.
I disagree with both of these statements. Picking up a land is naturally much better than picking up a spell, and lands generally go much later than they should in any draft format, but particularly cube.
Upheaval is a great card, but the Shelldock Isle will allow me to play my 24th card along with the power that comes from the Shelldock Isle. While you say I am losing out on a first pick, I say I'm essentially gaining two cards by drafting Shelldock Isle.
Perhaps this matters more in my cube where we have sometimes 10+ cuttable cards from our draft decks and cards that wheel are absolutely bonkers since we're playing a very high powered 360.
Quote from "preppypoof »
Yes I would. Picking up a SDI early is not the same as picking it P1P1, and I would bet anything that LSV would never take a SDI P1P1 (assuming he is actually trying to win and not just doing silly things like he tends to do).
And remember, just because something is underdrafted (which I agree, SDI is underdrafted, at least it was before LSV made that top 8 list a few years ago) does not mean that it is near the top of the list in terms of best cards.
Again, I disagree. I would take Shelldock Isle over every single blue card, save the six I listed on my top 20. My playgroup loves Shelldock Isle. It will not wheel. I have seen Upheaval wheel. I have seen True-Name Nemesis wheel. I have seen Fact or Fiction wheel. I have seen Snapcaster Mage wheel. I have never seen Shelldock Isle wheel, and my playgroup thinks the card is bonkers. Probably has a lot to do with why I value the card so highly.
Quote from "preppypoof »
I do love Shelldock Isle! I'm always happy to draft it! Just not P1P1. Ever. There are so many cards that you ranked lower that are better a much larger percentage of the time. Think of how often you cast Upheaval with a few mana floating, and DON'T win that game. How often does that even happen? Now think about how often you play a SDI and see four cards that don't really impact the game, even when cast at instant speed for UU. I'm not saying it happens every time, but I would take the Upheaval (or the Shackles, or Snappy, or pretty much every other card in your top 20) P1P1.
I've never cast Emrakul and lost either, but that doesn't mean I'd take Emrakul over Library.
Quote from "wtwlf123 »
@ColbyCube: Remember, I'm not saying that Isle is a bad card. It's just not one I'd consider for a P1P1 choice based on my experiences with it. Its powerlevel will vary from cube to cube, and there are cubes out there where it has a chance to be a tremendous consistent powerhouse, and it might crack the top 20 for blue in those cubes. But I don't have enough experience with it in that setting to have it influence my choice. The opportunity cost of taking it is low because it's a land that produces colored mana. But that benefit is mitigated if I have to use a first pick to get it. I cube with the card myself, and it has a fantastic BCS. However, its average performance (for me) is too low for me to consider first-picking it. And Maindeck percentage is an important factor for evaluating a card's value in the cube, but not necessarily for it's P1P1 value.
That's very true. It may be just ridiculous in our cube.
Quote from "Goodking »
Correct. This is predicated on the fact that you apparently think that I am unable to distinguish cards on the bottom and top of the library. The second part is irrelevant because if you have access to tutoring effects, you won't be searching for cards detrimental to your game.
Quote from "Goodking »
Yes, draws are random. However, in a deck capable of looking for its bomb, preemptively removing it is then a very concrete drawback if you can't then activate the isle. In a deck without any tutoring or filtering capacity, you are correct, because draws are random. In a deck with these capacities, saying that is not irrelevant any more. Which is actually the majority of decks in which I would run SDI.
Quote from "Goodking »
Only in the sense that you think I would be stupid enough to fall into 'it's stuck under the Isle and I would have drawn it two turns later' trap (i.e. Schrodinger's card), which is either pretty insulting or a straw-man argument.
I did think you were falling into that trap, which is why I was explaining the caveat I have with that argument. No insult intended (and apologies if you took offense), I've seen many of my playgroup fall into similar traps as I'm sure you have as well.
Quote from "Goodking »
Yes, it could have been anywhere in the stack, but the fact it's suddenly not available any more becomes relevant when there are means available of accessing a card irrespective of deck position (Natural Order, any tutor) and filter effects to search actively for the same bomb you would put under the isle are also potentially influenced. It is not a major argument against the card, but to say that its WCS is 'merely' a ETBT Island is simply not true in the majority of decks. Although an ETBT non-basic Island is already much worse indeed than a regular Island unless you activate it, so it may be almost a moot point.
I agree with all of this. We do play Shelldock Isle very often in green/blue ramp where it often finds a Natural Order target. However, our decks that play Natural Order consistently play at least 2+ targets for the card, so we don't worry about dropping a bomb underneath it.
I like how you say that it's not a major argument against the card, because I too think that. All of the following has to go "right" in order for that to be something I'm worried about:
1) Shelldock Isle has to hide a fatty that you could (and would want to tutor for) via Natural Order, Tinker, or Demonic Tutor type effects
2) Shelldock Isle has to never become active throughout the game
3) Being unable to tutor for the card has to actually lose you the game
The more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't think this has ever happened in our playgroup, and we've cubed Shelldock Isle for years now and take it extremely high.
That can also happen and is frustrating. However, if you never activate the SDI, you also lost out on the card forever. Sometimes that's OK, but occasionally it really isn't OK. Like when I have tutors, NO, copious filtering, or Tinker and would have looked for that exact card with 25 cards in my library. If it's an effect with redundancy (you have a Wrath under the SDI and a DoJ in the library) this drawback is pretty much negated by being able to dig for the duplicate effect.
Agree. I think getting my Shelldock Isle Wastelanded is particularly frustrating because I like the card so much, haha.
I think the point I was trying to make is that I think a lot of people undervalue the card in general.
I actually think it's massively overrated by the cube community at large. Seeing it off the top 20 list this time around makes me think people are starting to get it right.
Quote from ColbyCube »
pros do extremely well with formats they know, much better than the average cuber.
So if I had a question about what would be best for the format they play at the pro tour, I'd ask them. But when it comes to cube, trust the managers running the cubes. Trust the people that cube 24/7. Trust the people that know your format. Pros are a good source of information, but their voice is far from gospel when it comes to cube, a format that's usually nothing more than a casual side splash for them if anything.
Quote from ColbyCube »
I'd still question what decks you're using Evolving Wilds in. They're probably the same ones you're using Shelldock Isle in.
No. Wilds/Expanse are playable in everything. Universal fixing has value everywhere. Isle is limited to slow blue decks.
Quote from ColbyCube »
All I'm saying is ETBT is not that big of a drawback, and if you're running Evolving Wilds you're likely to agree with that.
I don't agree. I can deal with the drawback on Wilds because it always fixes my mana. It's harder to deal with the drawback on Isle when half the time it doesn't do anything else. And coming into play tapped is a tremendous drawback. The only ways it's really justifiable are when it fixes every color of mana for you and/or can attack your opponent. Isle needs to be in the right deck, played in the right window, needs to get lucky and/or set up w/ the top of your library, and has to be played in a matchup where it will actually have time to activate. That's a much greater set of restrictions than Wilds/Expanse, that basically only check to see if you're playing more than one color.
Quote from ColbyCube »
Isle is not only good in slow blue decks, we use it in storm (where it's absolutely incredible) and 3+ color planeswalker decks all the time.
Storm decks in the cube are pretty slow, as are 3+ color superfriends decks. The land is largely unplayable in any deck that's focussed on being aggressive and/or playing tempo. Whereas Wilds/Expanse are still playable in those decks because the fixing is so valuable. Wilds may not be ideal in aggro, but it's playable there to get the fixing you need. The same can't be said for Isle. I simply won't play that card outside of a deck that intends get under 30 cards.
I think everything you've said in the last post I'd agree with, except for your analysis of Evolving Wilds vs. Shelldock Isle. Evolving Wilds, while it does fix your mana, is also often used in slow blue decks. I'm certainly not going to play Evolving Wilds in my black, white, or red aggro deck (and for you, green aggro), nor would I play it in a two-color midrange deck like RG beatdown, so that leaves us with three color mid-range or control decks, largely the same places that Shelldock Isle shows up.
Storm decks in the cube are pretty slow.
I actually drafted a storm deck last night that ended up going 1-2 (lost) but the game I won was a turn 1 kill, haha. Our storm decks usually kill around turn 4-6, about the same as an aggro deck that gets hit by some resistance.
Ya, that's where we disagree. Fixing is good enough to go in everything. I mean, I'll play colorless mana fixing in every deck. Control will play City of Brass and aggro will play Evolving Wilds. It might not be perfect, but it's still good enough. Whereas Isle IS limited to slower decks. Not just due to the ETBT clause, but because of the activation criteria. It's a double-whammy.
I don't think we would put evolving wilds into our aggro decks with less than about 6 landfall dudes. I have to assume that "still good enough" is being used as a euphemism for "pretty much terrible"
ETBT lands are a huge liability in an aggressive deck that needs to squeeze out as much of its mana each turn as possible.
ETBT lands (ala Shelldock Isle) are not as great a liability in a slower deck that will often have unused mana (and therefore the ability to play a ETBT with no sacrifice) at least once in the first five turns.
ETBT lands are a huge liability in an aggressive deck that needs to squeeze out as much of its mana each turn as possible.
ETBT lands (ala Shelldock Isle) are not as great a liability in a slower deck that will often have unused mana (and therefore the ability to play a ETBT with no sacrifice) at least once in the first five turns.
This is correct.
I am willing, however, to sacrifice tempo for mana fixing and manlands on occasion, even in my aggro decks. But I won't make those same exceptions for Shelldock Isle, because the ETBT drawback is compounded with the 30 card drawback, which makes it twice as hard to get value out of in decks that are planning on winning the game as fast as possible.
Some of that might come from being a 360 cube too. With 8 drafters and a 360 list, you'll probably see the fixing you need to leave Wilds/Expanse etc in the board for your aggro decks. I don't have that luxury in a ~6 man draft with a 465 card cube. We need to play all the maindeckable fixing we can get our hands on.
But in terms of Shelldock's powerlevel, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on, I think. On to bigger and better discussions!
Yep, I think the 360 format definitely lends itself to better fixing. We only use shocks, duals, fetches for lands (not even any man-lands like Creeping Tar Pit or Celestial Colonnade!) and we do great with fixing in our aggro decks -- and that's with storm trying to gobble up some of their manafixing.
I'd be interested to see what the average manabase looks like for your aggro decks. Even if you got all 3 of your matching dual/shock/fetch in every draft, I'd still want more fixing in my final 40.
I'd be interested to see what the average manabase looks like for your aggro decks. Even if you got all 3 of your matching dual/shock/fetch in every draft, I'd still want more fixing in my final 40.
Next time we cube, I'll get an aggro decklist. Keep in mind there are also fetches that hit your dual and shock on either end, so that's always a possibility too.
Lands are valued [b]very[/b] high in my playgroup. Lots of people take them over other playable cards for their deck with the expectation that they'll table or they'll get something equally as good in a future pack. You're unlikely to get 3 fixing lands in the same color in my playgroup. I'm going to have to agree with wtwlf on this. We have several pro tour players in our group and even they do not hesitate to add Evolving Wilds[/b] into a BW Aggro list. Fixing is that good. And were Shelldock Isle to make a return to my Cube, it would be questioned by every player. Because last time it was in it did . . . pretty much nothing.
Are you saying Shelldock Isle doesn't "actually do something" ? It's BCS is one of the greatest in the entire cube, and you're sacrificing extremely little to pick Shelldock. It's a land, which makes it basically like a free pickup for your deck. Our blue decks always have at least four excess cuttables (largely because we play a powered 360), so Shelldock Isle is almost like taking two cards in one pick because you don't have to cut your 24th card.
Would you tell that to the channelfireball pro who said it was one of the most criminally underdrafted cards in the entire 720 modo cube, picked it extremely early, and proceeded to crush with it?
Yep, that was me, and yes, I completely stand by that ranking. It's been absolutely fantastic for us. I absolutely would take it over every card I listed below it P1P1, although obviously passing some of those cards would be difficult to do.
It doesn't sound like you really love Shelldock Isle.
-------
About the WCS:
Coming into play tapped is less of a deal for blue than it is for any other color in the cube. I agree that if it's WCS is coming into play tapped, that's a point in its favor. It's BCS is ridiculously good (whatever that may be), and it doesn't take up a spell slot in your deck. I think the card is nuts good and surprised other people don't think so.
In any case, we've had some good discussion about it, which I'm happy about.
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I would. A) being a pro doesn't necessarily mean your opinion on cube is gospel, and B) even if it's the right call for the 720 MODO cube, that means next to nothing in terms of how it will play in other cube environments.
Isle spends at least half its games never activating, and half of the times it activates it's either too little too late or activating in games I'm already crushing. So the number of activations where it contributes to a win where I otherwise would've lost is minuscule compared to the number of times it's a really bad Island. Is it capable of doing broken things? Of course! That's what makes it a fun inclusion for the cube. But I don't think it should be anywhere near the top 20.
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Of course you could always lock down that Ponder, but is that really worth it? Not picking the bomb makes its BCS much worse.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
The real power is thinking of it as a card like tinker, that when exploited is just nuts. I have been building up my U/R spells matter deck, and pushing for greater redundancy across all of the combo decks. Tinker/Big Ramp/Storm/Upheaval/Wildfire can all use SDI to get it done. There are fewer things better than free and while not truely free(It really costs you UU) it is the most potentially powerful spell land in cube.(outside of Library of Alexandria)
Now if you cube has a very low curve, and your cube has less combo or ramp support I can see it going way down in value. I just would have no problem picking it first. For me it might be close to #10-#15 for blue first picks but remember that is just saying it is the top 20% of cube for first pick criteria.
As an aside, I like how much of a debate the 5 drops are. It seems like if I were new to cube the message is to first picka blue 5 drop. I don't currently run memory adept, meloku, or bribery just because I can't have all 5 drops, but it is an embarrassment of riches when you play blue. I also rank the blue 5 drops lower just because they there so much goodness in the 4-6 drop for blue and I only need so many.
I'd certainly give someone who has won Grand Prix(s?) and Pro Tours more of my ear than the average cuber, I believe they've earned that.
I'd argue Shelldock Isle is better in a smaller list than in a larger one. You have a higher percentage of picking up cards that work extremely well with it, as well as more powerful effects to put under it. Perhaps it's why we really love it at powered 360.
You just said Evolving Wilds is a nearly 100% maindeck percentage:
Why are your decks maindecking Evolving Wilds nearly 100% of the time, but not Shelldock Isle? (serious question, not being antagonistic)
The way I see it is because blue is the color that gets hurt the least by ETBT lands (slowest color), I'm not exactly sure why Evolving Wilds is getting so much play in your group but the far superior Shelldock Isle is considered a bad island.
We almost always pick the bomb. Unless you're casting Demonic Tutor specifically for Sun Titan, you actually didn't lose out on much.
If Hideaway was the bottom four cards of your library instead of the top four cards, I don't think you would be making this argument. The four cards on the bottom of your library are just as random as the ones on the top four of your library. Perhaps the Isle removing four cards that would have been detrimental to your game happens just as often as it hurts you (law of large numbers).
Saying, "Well, I would have drawn Sun Titan this game and that would have won me the game, but instead I died in the time that I would have been able to cast it normally, but not off of Shelldock Isle" is irrelevant because the draws are completely random. There are very few times when I've died with mana to cast the card under Shelldock Isle, it would have won me the game, I could have tutored for it, no other card would have been a sufficient replacement, and no library ever got to 20 cards. That is a lot of requirements to happen to say that the card under Shelldock Isle being hideaway'd actually affected the game.
Except getting the top 4 instead of bottom 4 is way better because you can use Brainstorm effects, Vampiric Tutor effects, Sensei's Divining Top, etc to ensure you get something you want under the Isle.
Hope that makes sense and I'm not coming off as a douchebag.
Now, I do think a fine argument is if Shelldock Isle gets wastelanded, you lose out on the card forever. That I think is an appropriate argument against it, but running a 360 where the chances of that happening are higher than in a 450/540/630 etc, I'd say it has happened only a few times on one hand in years that a Shelldock Isle has been wastelanded where:
1) The Shelldock Isle hid something that the player absolutely needed (A Tendrils of Agony where it's their only storm kill)
2) The Shelldock Isle got wastelanded
3) The player lost the game because of it and would have won otherwise
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I think it depends entirely on context. They can say something that's completely contradictory to my experience with the card in the cube. Suddenly my experiences are wrong because their opinion says so? I value their opinions, but I often find their opinions clashing with my first-hand experiences with cards. Most people that manage a cube list have 10x the cube experience that a random pro does with the cube. And cube card evaluation is all about context and experience.
Smaller cubes tend to be much faster. I'd argue that the bigger and slower the cube is, the better Shelldock will perform. Aggro decks being sculpted from a powered 360 cube should end games long before Isle is even available to be activated.
Because one fixes my mana, and the other one doesn't. Isle won't see play in decks that are planning on winning the game early (all U/x aggro/tempo decks will exclude it, for example). Whereas universally playable mana fixing is useful in a greater percentage of decks.
Explained above. Fixing is universally valuable. Isle is only good in slow blue decks. When Isle's at it's worst, it's a really bad Island. Wilds/Expanse perform exactly the same every time.
And again, maindeck percentage is not a factor of how P1P1 worthy a card is. Like I said before, I cube Isle, and I think it's a fine card. But it doesn't just automatically go into every deck, and it isn't worthy of being first-picked.
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Of course Shelldock Isle has a great BCS. And of course you'll always play SDI when you draft it. But you ARE sacrificing a LOT to pick Shelldock Isle, when you consider that you could have picked something else with your P1P1.
Yes I would. Picking up a SDI early is not the same as picking it P1P1, and I would bet anything that LSV would never take a SDI P1P1 (assuming he is actually trying to win and not just doing silly things like he tends to do).
And remember, just because something is underdrafted (which I agree, SDI is underdrafted, at least it was before LSV made that top 8 list a few years ago) does not mean that it is near the top of the list in terms of best cards.
I do love Shelldock Isle! I'm always happy to draft it! Just not P1P1. Ever. There are so many cards that you ranked lower that are better a much larger percentage of the time. Think of how often you cast Upheaval with a few mana floating, and DON'T win that game. How often does that even happen? Now think about how often you play a SDI and see four cards that don't really impact the game, even when cast at instant speed for UU. I'm not saying it happens every time, but I would take the Upheaval (or the Shackles, or Snappy, or pretty much every other card in your top 20) P1P1.
If you're ranking it on this list, you're sacrificing your P1P1. I'd say that's more than "extremely little".
..........
@ColbyCube: Remember, I'm not saying that Isle is a bad card. It's just not one I'd consider for a P1P1 choice based on my experiences with it. Its powerlevel will vary from cube to cube, and there are cubes out there where it has a chance to be a tremendous consistent powerhouse, and it might crack the top 20 for blue in those cubes. But I don't have enough experience with it in that setting to have it influence my choice. The opportunity cost of taking it is low because it's a land that produces colored mana. But that benefit is mitigated if I have to use a first pick to get it. I cube with the card myself, and it has a fantastic BCS. However, its average performance (for me) is too low for me to consider first-picking it. And Maindeck percentage is an important factor for evaluating a card's value in the cube, but not necessarily for it's P1P1 value.
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As would I.
Yes I would, and it would still be just as relevant.
Correct. This is predicated on the fact that you apparently think that I am unable to distinguish cards on the bottom and top of the library. The second part is irrelevant because if you have access to tutoring effects, you won't be searching for cards detrimental to your game.
Yes, draws are random. However, in a deck capable of looking for its bomb, preemptively removing it is then a very concrete drawback if you can't then activate the isle. In a deck without any tutoring or filtering capacity, you are correct, because draws are random. In a deck with these capacities, saying that is not irrelevant any more. Which is actually the majority of decks in which I would run SDI.
Correct.
Only in the sense that you think I would be stupid enough to fall into 'it's stuck under the Isle and I would have drawn it two turns later' trap (i.e. Schrodinger's card), which is either pretty insulting or a straw-man argument. Yes, it could have been anywhere in the stack, but the fact it's suddenly not available any more becomes relevant when there are means available of accessing a card irrespective of deck position (Natural Order, any tutor) and filter effects to search actively for the same bomb you would put under the isle are also potentially influenced. It is not a major argument against the card, but to say that its WCS is 'merely' a ETBT Island is simply not true in the majority of decks. Although an ETBT non-basic Island is already much worse indeed than a regular Island unless you activate it, so it may be almost a moot point.
That can also happen and is frustrating. However, if you never activate the SDI, you also lost out on the card forever. Sometimes that's OK, but occasionally it really isn't OK. Like when I have tutors, NO, copious filtering, or Tinker and would have looked for that exact card with 25 cards in my library. If it's an effect with redundancy (you have a Wrath under the SDI and a DoJ in the library) this drawback is pretty much negated by being able to dig for the duplicate effect.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I wasn't saying that your experiences are nullified -- just that some of the top players in the world consider Shelldock Isle to be criminally underdrafted in the modo cube. It may not be underdrafted in your cube, and it may be very underdrafted in someone else's cube. I think the point I was trying to make is that I think a lot of people undervalue the card in general. I'd agree with you that I'd take a cube manager's opinion very highly, but when it comes to pick orders and understanding what is best in a particular cube format, pros do extremely well with formats they know, much better than the average cuber.
This hasn't been our experience. We run a very fast and very small cube. Our aggro section is great! Take a look, I think we run almost all of the aggro guys you do (at least the very aggressive ones @ 1cmc and 2cmc) but with 90 cards less. Shelldock Isle is definitely at its worse against aggro, but none of us ever board it out.
Shelldock Isle may be great in our cube because we run a ton of Draw 7s compared to the average 360 (or probably any other cube), and we only support red, white, and black as aggro colors.
I can see that, but I'd still question what decks you're using Evolving Wilds in. They're probably the same ones you're using Shelldock Isle in.
All I'm saying is ETBT is not that big of a drawback, and if you're running Evolving Wilds you're likely to agree with that.
Isle is not only good in slow blue decks, we use it in storm (where it's absolutely incredible) and 3+ color planeswalker decks all the time. Evolving Wilds is good in those decks too, actually.
I disagree with both of these statements. Picking up a land is naturally much better than picking up a spell, and lands generally go much later than they should in any draft format, but particularly cube.
Upheaval is a great card, but the Shelldock Isle will allow me to play my 24th card along with the power that comes from the Shelldock Isle. While you say I am losing out on a first pick, I say I'm essentially gaining two cards by drafting Shelldock Isle.
Perhaps this matters more in my cube where we have sometimes 10+ cuttable cards from our draft decks and cards that wheel are absolutely bonkers since we're playing a very high powered 360.
Again, I disagree. I would take Shelldock Isle over every single blue card, save the six I listed on my top 20. My playgroup loves Shelldock Isle. It will not wheel. I have seen Upheaval wheel. I have seen True-Name Nemesis wheel. I have seen Fact or Fiction wheel. I have seen Snapcaster Mage wheel. I have never seen Shelldock Isle wheel, and my playgroup thinks the card is bonkers. Probably has a lot to do with why I value the card so highly.
I've never cast Emrakul and lost either, but that doesn't mean I'd take Emrakul over Library.
That's very true. It may be just ridiculous in our cube.
I did think you were falling into that trap, which is why I was explaining the caveat I have with that argument. No insult intended (and apologies if you took offense), I've seen many of my playgroup fall into similar traps as I'm sure you have as well.
I agree with all of this. We do play Shelldock Isle very often in green/blue ramp where it often finds a Natural Order target. However, our decks that play Natural Order consistently play at least 2+ targets for the card, so we don't worry about dropping a bomb underneath it.
I like how you say that it's not a major argument against the card, because I too think that. All of the following has to go "right" in order for that to be something I'm worried about:
1) Shelldock Isle has to hide a fatty that you could (and would want to tutor for) via Natural Order, Tinker, or Demonic Tutor type effects
2) Shelldock Isle has to never become active throughout the game
3) Being unable to tutor for the card has to actually lose you the game
The more I think about it, the more I realize that I don't think this has ever happened in our playgroup, and we've cubed Shelldock Isle for years now and take it extremely high.
Agree. I think getting my Shelldock Isle Wastelanded is particularly frustrating because I like the card so much, haha.
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I actually think it's massively overrated by the cube community at large. Seeing it off the top 20 list this time around makes me think people are starting to get it right.
So if I had a question about what would be best for the format they play at the pro tour, I'd ask them. But when it comes to cube, trust the managers running the cubes. Trust the people that cube 24/7. Trust the people that know your format. Pros are a good source of information, but their voice is far from gospel when it comes to cube, a format that's usually nothing more than a casual side splash for them if anything.
No. Wilds/Expanse are playable in everything. Universal fixing has value everywhere. Isle is limited to slow blue decks.
I don't agree. I can deal with the drawback on Wilds because it always fixes my mana. It's harder to deal with the drawback on Isle when half the time it doesn't do anything else. And coming into play tapped is a tremendous drawback. The only ways it's really justifiable are when it fixes every color of mana for you and/or can attack your opponent. Isle needs to be in the right deck, played in the right window, needs to get lucky and/or set up w/ the top of your library, and has to be played in a matchup where it will actually have time to activate. That's a much greater set of restrictions than Wilds/Expanse, that basically only check to see if you're playing more than one color.
Storm decks in the cube are pretty slow, as are 3+ color superfriends decks. The land is largely unplayable in any deck that's focussed on being aggressive and/or playing tempo. Whereas Wilds/Expanse are still playable in those decks because the fixing is so valuable. Wilds may not be ideal in aggro, but it's playable there to get the fixing you need. The same can't be said for Isle. I simply won't play that card outside of a deck that intends get under 30 cards.
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I think everything you've said in the last post I'd agree with, except for your analysis of Evolving Wilds vs. Shelldock Isle. Evolving Wilds, while it does fix your mana, is also often used in slow blue decks. I'm certainly not going to play Evolving Wilds in my black, white, or red aggro deck (and for you, green aggro), nor would I play it in a two-color midrange deck like RG beatdown, so that leaves us with three color mid-range or control decks, largely the same places that Shelldock Isle shows up.
I actually drafted a storm deck last night that ended up going 1-2 (lost) but the game I won was a turn 1 kill, haha. Our storm decks usually kill around turn 4-6, about the same as an aggro deck that gets hit by some resistance.
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ETBT lands (ala Shelldock Isle) are not as great a liability in a slower deck that will often have unused mana (and therefore the ability to play a ETBT with no sacrifice) at least once in the first five turns.
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This is correct.
I am willing, however, to sacrifice tempo for mana fixing and manlands on occasion, even in my aggro decks. But I won't make those same exceptions for Shelldock Isle, because the ETBT drawback is compounded with the 30 card drawback, which makes it twice as hard to get value out of in decks that are planning on winning the game as fast as possible.
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But in terms of Shelldock's powerlevel, we'll just have to agree to disagree and move on, I think. On to bigger and better discussions!
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Next time we cube, I'll get an aggro decklist. Keep in mind there are also fetches that hit your dual and shock on either end, so that's always a possibility too.
We like that our lands are very valuable.
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