3 free playables sounds pretty incredible to me. If I can get that on average from Canal Dredger, it'll be a solid mid-pack pick for the future of the cube's existence. Beats the hell out of one mid-pack playable card, IMO.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
The conspiracies are very strong, that's for sure. I certainly wouldn't recommend the better ones for an unpowered cube. In a powered cube they offer some top tier picks.
Okay, so I run an lower-powered unpowered 520 cube. Which conspiracies do you see as bad for the format, I'm curious?
If Canal Dredger gets picked after another drafter or drafters already made their last pick for the round, what happens there?
I would advise to do the same as people did in Conspiracy drafts: pass all your packs simultaneously, to avoid this sort of thing. Although, if it gets picked last...
We tried a few drafts with the new cards. My thoughts: first of all, we loved the draft-altering artifacts. I cube with a lot of boardgamers and reformed Magic players who are very familiar with drafting games like Ginkgopolis and 7 Wonders, so any wrinkle in the draft format that adds some decision making is very welcome indeed. My particular favorite is Deal Broker, we've had a blast with it, though they all seem pretty popular. Whispergear Sneak, sadly, was just too low impact to matter, and will be getting cut. I thought it might be cool to see what another player was grabbing early in a pack, but no one wanted to waste an early pick on the sneak, so he's going to be cut. As for the Conspiracies, those are more controversial. We play 450 unpowered, and they seem a little too strong for a format where we ban Sol Ring and friends. I can see keeping Worldknit and Unexpected Potential in, as both are fun, and neither is particularly game-breaking. Brago's Favor is also a possible keep. Favor is strong, but not as strong as Power Play, Double Stroke, etc. I'd be curious to see what the consensus ends up being on which conspiracies are good, but not too powerful for unpowered 450, and which are best reserved for powered cubes.
I'd be curious to see what the consensus ends up being on which conspiracies are good, but not too powerful for unpowered 450, and which are best reserved for powered cubes.
I think powered cubes like effects that create blowouts.
Unexpected Potential is pretty powerful too because it allows you to play something crazy like a Garruk, Primal Hunter in your blue-white control deck, but I don't think this card leads to as many blowouts as the above card because you still have to pump 5 mana into it, it doesn't draw you a card, etc.
Power Play, Advantageous Proclamation, and Backup Plan are probably all fine to run at cubes of any size because they don't add value to individual cards and actually affect the game inside the game.
Worldknit is just group preference, but the decks you draft with that conspiracy aren't ridiculously powerful most of the time.
Excellent report Fredo, thank you for sharing your experiences with conspiracies!
So Canal Dredger got 11 cards and only 3 of them were playable? Hmm. Sounds like he may get cut soon! I don't like him much largely because he takes up a draft spot from a strategy that could use the card. It does seem lazy.
I'm not surprised Paliano saw play each time it was drafted -- I'd love to have another mana fixer of that quality, but I just don't have the room for it, and I'm at powered 360. I can imagine being at 450, you have a little more wiggle room.
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Concerning Paliano: it should be noted that we Rochester draft, which makes Paliano quite a bit worse as everyone knows exactly which colors you play and even which colors you might splash (100% open information). Hence my scepticism. To be honest I'm still not convinced, but I'm willing to give it some time.
3 free playables sounds pretty incredible to me. If I can get that on average from Canal Dredger, it'll be a solid mid-pack pick for the future of the cube's existence. Beats the hell out of one mid-pack playable card, IMO.
Concerning Canal Dredger: in itself, '3 playables' doesn't really say much - if they're so weak none of them make the main deck, it's bad, but if you main deck them all, it'd be great. In this case, 2 of them ended up in the sideboard but the third was a roleplayer for the deck: Imperial Recruiter for a spells deck to go and fetch MVP Guttersnipe (among others). So in this case, Canal Dredger was great. Of course, what it will do in a draft is essentially outside your control. This is what bothers me most about the card. The jury is out on the Dredger.
Okay, so I run an lower-powered unpowered 520 cube. Which conspiracies do you see as bad for the format, I'm curious?
Let's see... Please take this advice with a grain of salt as my experience with Conspiracies (and unpowered cubes) is limited.
Double Stroke: Turns good cards into Time Walk caliber cards. Top tier pick even in powered environments. Backup Plan: I would not play this in unpowered. It's a huge advantage that's always active and doesn't require a spot in your deck. Advantageous Proclamation: unsure, it's not as strong as Backup Plan but it's also a big advantage for 'free'. I don't think I'd play it in unpowered but I could be wrong. Brago's Favor: 1 mana is often the difference between an ok card and a top card. I would avoid this in unpowered. Power Play: not sure, I think this scales with the power level of the cube so it could be ok in unpowered. Muzzio's Preparations: I think this is very powerful, but it's only broken with persist creatures. Because of that quality it may be unsuitable for unpowered cubes. Iterative Analysis: adds a lot of value, it seems innocuous but it turns a random spell into an amazing spell. It would be a high pick in unpowered. Immediate Action: similar to Analysis, but for aggressive decks only. We opted not to include it for that reason. Unexpected Potential: I don't think this card is over the top in any environment. Include it if its effect appeals to you. Worldknit: see Potential. Secrets of Paradise: fair card, not a problem for unpowered. We skipped it as we don't do fair Sentinel Dispatch: good for defensive decks. If these decks need a leg up in your cube, you could test it. We skipped it for being too narrow.
We just had two drafts (4 players) where I seeded the two conspiracies that I own into the boosters.
Advantageous Proclamation: This performed just as expected. It noticeably increases the quality of the deck, but not so much as to be broken. It was a high pick in both drafts, but not of the "OMG! I am so lucky to open this! Instant first pick!" kind of way. This seems to be at a very good power level. Best witnessed interaction: Shelldock Isle.
Sentinel Dispatch: Certainly the fairest conspiracy. Tabled once in each draft and was picked up around the middle of the pack. Its effect during gameplay was largely minor, but was ok for a card that was essentially free. It helped slower decks against aggro, but no so much as to be oppressive. Best witnessed interaction: Tinker!
There are three other conspiracies that I might try, but haven't yet:
Power Play: Might be super strong in aggro and reanimator decks or might be ok. This is the card that I am most likely to include of the three remaining non-Hidden Agenda conspiracies.
Worldknit: I fear that this one disrupts the draft too much if picked during pack one, while becoming a dead pick during later packs. The more I think about it, the less I want to include it.
Backup Plan: Now, this one looks like a "OMG! I am so lucky to open this! Instant first pick!" card. Might push reanimator over the top. I want to try it, but I might not keep it, due to being too powerful.
Backup Plan is powerful, but not ridiculously so. You're often taking it over a card that would absolutely make your deck better, so there is always that trade-off. You're actually trading power for consistency with this pick many times, but it's a trade most people will make because you see this card every game and it improves your ability to not lose to stupid manascrew.
I won't be cubing the Conspiracies full-time but they're a nice option. However at some point I could see cubing Sentinel Dispatch full-time. Currently I won't play it, but in the future when aggro becomes more powerful then I could see playing it to help the slower decks. Plus it aids artifact decks which is very nice.
Worldknit, Cogwork Grinder and Canal Dredger all rather early. To my knowledge Worldknit still works if you remove cards with cogwork grinder and it made for a huge vanilla for 6, i think it ended up as a 21/21.
If Worldknit works with Cogwork Grinder, that is a ridiculously good combo. Also, if true, that combination screws up the draft for everyone else like nothing else, haha.
So far it looks like I will be keeping a few on the constructs in full time (Deal Broker, Aether Searcher, Lore Seeker) but will just have the conspiracies as a separate stack that I seed in some drafts. They don't seem oppressive from a power stand point but they either warp someone's draft or are junk taken later. There are too few for me to really consider them full time without them getting stale.
Now that is just me, you may like them all the time, but after playing conspiracy a bunch already I am not looking to make my cube life exactly like that.
Just reread Cogwork Grinder and it does work with worldknit because it removes the cards from your draft pool, while worldknit only cares about using every card in your draft pool.
I'm running most conspiracies in red cases, whereas my cube is yellow cased.This allows me to remove them if necessary and doesn't reveal too much in the draft process, nor does it hinder or confuse gameplay.
In a powered cube, I can understand why Dack Fayden is the better card over his duplicate. However once we go unpowered, his duplicate will almost always surpass himself. Haste is so underrated. How many times have we seen planeswalkers getting killed because opponents had not anticipated it.
That said, I think Izzet Charm is an Izzet staple. All its modes are relevant.
I can't imagine the Duplicate being that much better in unpowered. Dack is still a double looter. That's his primary function, in my mind. And, even unpowered cubes have disgusting artifacts you'll want to steal: Swords, Clamp, Wurmcoil, Shackles, etc. I think the Duplicate is going to be great, but Dack is busted.
Just reread Cogwork Grinder and it does work with worldknit because it removes the cards from your draft pool, while worldknit only cares about using every card in your draft pool.
I'm running most conspiracies in red cases, whereas my cube is yellow cased.This allows me to remove them if necessary and doesn't reveal too much in the draft process, nor does it hinder or confuse gameplay.
Even with this sweet interaction, I don't think a six mana big dummy is good enough for the powered 360. I'll ask my playgroup Friday night and see what they think. You're right though, it specifically says it removes it from your card pool right on Cogwork Grinder.
Getting a bunch of last picks in cube is actually pretty sweet. There are a lot of last picks you'll either side in against people or play in your maindeck.
That being said, I don't run the card because I don't like how it plays with the draft and I also don't like removing a very valuable card for it, but I wouldn't blame anyone for drafting with it in cube.
Cogwork Grinder is a fantastic concept but just costs too much. Slinging my offcolour picks in Winston at a 4 fatty would make him into an awesome pick, but 6 for a vanilla is uncool.
Cogwork Grinder is a fantastic concept but just costs too much. Slinging my offcolour picks in Winston at a 4 fatty would make him into an awesome pick, but 6 for a vanilla is uncool.
In our experience, we end up with too many playables so you would have to decide which playables you will cut from your deck on the fly and chuck those. Many times you just don't get that many picks that you couldn't at least conceivably put in your deck. And the ones that you do get tend to be early picks before you settled into whatever deck you're drafting -- and that would mean you got those cards before you drafted Clockwork Grinder.
Cogwork Grinder is a fantastic concept but just costs too much. Slinging my offcolour picks in Winston at a 4 fatty would make him into an awesome pick, but 6 for a vanilla is uncool.
I agree. Costing 5 would likely be too much to play a big dummy for me too, but I'd definitely test him at 4.
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In our experience, we end up with too many playables so you would have to decide which playables you will cut from your deck on the fly and chuck those. Many times you just don't get that many picks that you couldn't at least conceivably put in your deck. And the ones that you do get tend to be early picks before you settled into whatever deck you're drafting -- and that would mean you got those cards before you drafted Clockwork Grinder.
I think almost everyone has too many playables in their cube drafts, so I think this rings true for the vast majority of playgroups, including mine.
Another big problem with Cogwork Grinder is that he's almost useless if he shows up in pack 3. He is great in Conspiracy (when picked pack 1) but he's not so hot in a much better drafting format such as cube.
I was going to say this exact thing until I got here.
Another problem with this guy is that if you do get him in the first pack, you'll be very aware of hate-drafting to make other people's decks less playable because you'll place more emphasis on building your deck as it goes and making educated guesses as to whether you're play a card or not. Rather than just taking the best card out of the pack for your deck and dealing with some extra playables, I can see pack 3 in particular being a hate-draft fest once you have assembled a good deck and don't need extra playables, so even at his best he may do more harm than good to the general draft pool.
An argument I haven't seen on this guy may also be very important to some playgroups: (If someone has posted this argument and I missed it, I apologize)
If you do a lot of 2-player-grids, this guy may be a good bit worse than if you pass 3 booster packs of 15 among 4-8 players. Rochester may be even worse. I'm not sure how much Winston would be affected, but I assume it's likely worse than a 3x15 normal draft.
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Okay, so I run an lower-powered unpowered 520 cube. Which conspiracies do you see as bad for the format, I'm curious?
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Is that the official ruling though?
I would advise to do the same as people did in Conspiracy drafts: pass all your packs simultaneously, to avoid this sort of thing. Although, if it gets picked last...
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I think powered cubes like effects that create blowouts.
Double Strike is the worst offender, but Brago's Favor, Immediate Action (lots of good targets, Hero of Bladehold, Master of the Feast, any titan, etc), Iterative Analysis (particularly on Forbid), and Muzzio's Preparations (particularly on persist guys) can all be giant blowouts.
Unexpected Potential is pretty powerful too because it allows you to play something crazy like a Garruk, Primal Hunter in your blue-white control deck, but I don't think this card leads to as many blowouts as the above card because you still have to pump 5 mana into it, it doesn't draw you a card, etc.
Power Play, Advantageous Proclamation, and Backup Plan are probably all fine to run at cubes of any size because they don't add value to individual cards and actually affect the game inside the game.
Worldknit is just group preference, but the decks you draft with that conspiracy aren't ridiculously powerful most of the time.
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Concerning Paliano: it should be noted that we Rochester draft, which makes Paliano quite a bit worse as everyone knows exactly which colors you play and even which colors you might splash (100% open information). Hence my scepticism. To be honest I'm still not convinced, but I'm willing to give it some time.
Concerning Canal Dredger: in itself, '3 playables' doesn't really say much - if they're so weak none of them make the main deck, it's bad, but if you main deck them all, it'd be great. In this case, 2 of them ended up in the sideboard but the third was a roleplayer for the deck: Imperial Recruiter for a spells deck to go and fetch MVP Guttersnipe (among others). So in this case, Canal Dredger was great. Of course, what it will do in a draft is essentially outside your control. This is what bothers me most about the card. The jury is out on the Dredger.
Let's see... Please take this advice with a grain of salt as my experience with Conspiracies (and unpowered cubes) is limited.
Double Stroke: Turns good cards into Time Walk caliber cards. Top tier pick even in powered environments.
Backup Plan: I would not play this in unpowered. It's a huge advantage that's always active and doesn't require a spot in your deck.
Advantageous Proclamation: unsure, it's not as strong as Backup Plan but it's also a big advantage for 'free'. I don't think I'd play it in unpowered but I could be wrong.
Brago's Favor: 1 mana is often the difference between an ok card and a top card. I would avoid this in unpowered.
Power Play: not sure, I think this scales with the power level of the cube so it could be ok in unpowered.
Muzzio's Preparations: I think this is very powerful, but it's only broken with persist creatures. Because of that quality it may be unsuitable for unpowered cubes.
Iterative Analysis: adds a lot of value, it seems innocuous but it turns a random spell into an amazing spell. It would be a high pick in unpowered.
Immediate Action: similar to Analysis, but for aggressive decks only. We opted not to include it for that reason.
Unexpected Potential: I don't think this card is over the top in any environment. Include it if its effect appeals to you.
Worldknit: see Potential.
Secrets of Paradise: fair card, not a problem for unpowered. We skipped it as we don't do fair
Sentinel Dispatch: good for defensive decks. If these decks need a leg up in your cube, you could test it. We skipped it for being too narrow.
Advantageous Proclamation: This performed just as expected. It noticeably increases the quality of the deck, but not so much as to be broken. It was a high pick in both drafts, but not of the "OMG! I am so lucky to open this! Instant first pick!" kind of way. This seems to be at a very good power level. Best witnessed interaction: Shelldock Isle.
Sentinel Dispatch: Certainly the fairest conspiracy. Tabled once in each draft and was picked up around the middle of the pack. Its effect during gameplay was largely minor, but was ok for a card that was essentially free. It helped slower decks against aggro, but no so much as to be oppressive. Best witnessed interaction: Tinker!
There are three other conspiracies that I might try, but haven't yet:
Power Play: Might be super strong in aggro and reanimator decks or might be ok. This is the card that I am most likely to include of the three remaining non-Hidden Agenda conspiracies.
Worldknit: I fear that this one disrupts the draft too much if picked during pack one, while becoming a dead pick during later packs. The more I think about it, the less I want to include it.
Backup Plan: Now, this one looks like a "OMG! I am so lucky to open this! Instant first pick!" card. Might push reanimator over the top. I want to try it, but I might not keep it, due to being too powerful.
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I also got to Shelldock Isle with Advantageous Proclamation in play. Ended up losing to Sword of Body and Mind though.
I won't be cubing the Conspiracies full-time but they're a nice option. However at some point I could see cubing Sentinel Dispatch full-time. Currently I won't play it, but in the future when aggro becomes more powerful then I could see playing it to help the slower decks. Plus it aids artifact decks which is very nice.
Worldknit, Cogwork Grinder and Canal Dredger all rather early. To my knowledge Worldknit still works if you remove cards with cogwork grinder and it made for a huge vanilla for 6, i think it ended up as a 21/21.
Aether Searcher named cloudgoat ranger and was a good beater as well.
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Now that is just me, you may like them all the time, but after playing conspiracy a bunch already I am not looking to make my cube life exactly like that.
I'm running most conspiracies in red cases, whereas my cube is yellow cased.This allows me to remove them if necessary and doesn't reveal too much in the draft process, nor does it hinder or confuse gameplay.
thats my cube
I can't imagine the Duplicate being that much better in unpowered. Dack is still a double looter. That's his primary function, in my mind. And, even unpowered cubes have disgusting artifacts you'll want to steal: Swords, Clamp, Wurmcoil, Shackles, etc. I think the Duplicate is going to be great, but Dack is busted.
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Even with this sweet interaction, I don't think a six mana big dummy is good enough for the powered 360. I'll ask my playgroup Friday night and see what they think. You're right though, it specifically says it removes it from your card pool right on Cogwork Grinder.
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You cut it from your cube.
If the card whose SOLE VALUE is picking up last picks isn't picked, then why are you running it?
That being said, I don't run the card because I don't like how it plays with the draft and I also don't like removing a very valuable card for it, but I wouldn't blame anyone for drafting with it in cube.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
In our experience, we end up with too many playables so you would have to decide which playables you will cut from your deck on the fly and chuck those. Many times you just don't get that many picks that you couldn't at least conceivably put in your deck. And the ones that you do get tend to be early picks before you settled into whatever deck you're drafting -- and that would mean you got those cards before you drafted Clockwork Grinder.
I agree. Costing 5 would likely be too much to play a big dummy for me too, but I'd definitely test him at 4.
I think almost everyone has too many playables in their cube drafts, so I think this rings true for the vast majority of playgroups, including mine.
I was going to say this exact thing until I got here.
Another problem with this guy is that if you do get him in the first pack, you'll be very aware of hate-drafting to make other people's decks less playable because you'll place more emphasis on building your deck as it goes and making educated guesses as to whether you're play a card or not. Rather than just taking the best card out of the pack for your deck and dealing with some extra playables, I can see pack 3 in particular being a hate-draft fest once you have assembled a good deck and don't need extra playables, so even at his best he may do more harm than good to the general draft pool.
An argument I haven't seen on this guy may also be very important to some playgroups: (If someone has posted this argument and I missed it, I apologize)
If you do a lot of 2-player-grids, this guy may be a good bit worse than if you pass 3 booster packs of 15 among 4-8 players. Rochester may be even worse. I'm not sure how much Winston would be affected, but I assume it's likely worse than a 3x15 normal draft.
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