And mana drained from pools until they invented a card that broke that rule too. I think the point of the card is that it breaks that rule.
Not really. As written, the card is quite clear. If it said "you play first each game" it would work like mr. Dandy Lions was suggesting, but it refers only to the "starting player" - and that's pretty well-defined in the rules.
It says clearly on the card "start the game with this conspiracy face-up in the command zone. You are the starting player."
That's pretty unequivocal. Your argument is that it would break this rule:
In a match of several games, the loser of the previous game chooses who takes the first turn.
But if that's the case, then Power Play is breaking this rule instead.
After the decks have been shuffled, the players determine which one of them will choose who takes the first turn. In the first game of a match (including a single-game match), the players may use any mutually agreeable method (flipping a coin, rolling dice, etc.) to do so.
Obviously you can't have it both ways; i was quoting the full rule to give context. You should notice the rule says usually, if you have the conspiracy in your command zone, obviously you are the starting player. And since the rules state clearly "The player chosen to take the first turn is the starting player" and "In a match of several games, the loser of the previous game chooses who takes the first turn", it follows that having Power Play means you play first in the first game of the match, but on the 2nd and 3rd game things go on as usual.
I would suggest you re-read the rule I posted above and the card again as well, "dude".
edit: It does not say "usually"; I misread, so let's try again. You are indeed the starting player (obviously, that's the point of the card). But being the starting player only implies you play first the FIRST game; the other part of the rule says clearly games 2, 3 and beyond go on as normally.
edit2: but then again, Cube is a casual format; do what you and your playgroup see fit. If this was played in a tournament setting and someone asked me this question I would rule like I did, but Cube is far from a tournament format.
Are there going to be official rules in place on gatherer for these cards? I assume that you would ignore all other deciding factors including who lost the last game and whoever has power play gets to always go first. As a judge do you get a rule book on these things or are you just guessing? I am not calling you out on guessing I am just trying to see where it states that rule for power play if it does anywhere.
also, "dude" is pretty much an affectionate term most of the time. If I called you a dude then it was because I think you are a cool and laid back regular guy. All my friends are dudes and I am a dude. No need to assume the worst, dude.
Are there going to be official rules in place on gatherer for these cards?
I don't know, but currently Power Play does not have any additional rulings on Gatherer.
I assume that you would ignore all other deciding factors including who lost the last game and whoever has power play gets to always go first.
I would assume otherwise just with the rule I posted...
As a judge do you get a rule book on these things or are you just guessing? I am not calling you out on guessing I am just trying to see where it states that rule for power play if it does anywhere.
That's a fair question.
In post #53 above I was quoting the actual Comprehensive Rules and using my best judgement as a judge. But to be fair, I was checking a slightly older version of the rulebook and now we have rule 103.2c: "One card, Power Play, states that its controller is the starting player. This effect supersedes these methods." This sentence seems very ambiguous to me (English is not my native language) and I believe it refers to rules 103.2a and 103.2b (respectively about team games and Archenemy), but it's there nonetheless.
I asked for the official ruling on this matter and I should have it in a couple of hours. I will post it here as soon as I get it. But like I said above - do whatever you and your playgroup want to do.
also, "dude" is pretty much an affectionate term most of the time. If I called you a dude then it was because I think you are a cool and laid back regular guy. All my friends are dudes and I am a dude. No need to assume the worst, dude.
Fair enough, I was too hasty in my response. It's very hard to convey (and understand) the correct tone online and I am certain it was used as a casual term. My line was a bit out of place and I apologize for that.
It's an interesting point, as I hadn't actually considered this aspect at all. I guess we'd assumed that you start first in every game with Power Play, but that wasn't based on anything concrete. Mrbrightside could well be right that it's only the first game, but there is some ambiguity with the rule you quote and the as-written effect on the card. An official ruling would be great.
I thought that "starting player" was used instead of "go first" to perserve the fact that as the starting player you have the option to go second. Definitely would appreciate an official ruling if you get one.
I thought that "starting player" was used instead of "go first" to perserve the fact that as the starting player you have the option to go second. Definitely would appreciate an official ruling if you get one.
I asked both Matt Tabak (the Rules Manager) and the Judge Community via the proper channels, I will post the official ruling as soon as I get one.
"Person with Power Play is the starting player regardless of game. Person can choose not to play it in games 2/3 if desired."
Sorry about the mess above; this seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me (but news flash: lots of rules are :p). This is as official as it gets, folks. The card is officially bonkers.
If 'starting player '= 'go first' that would mean that if you have this card you are forced to go first even if you don't want to. Doubt it would come up too often but there are some decks I could see avoiding the card for that reason.
I don't think I understand the argument for Izzet Charm as key to Reanimator or Combo. I don't think its particularly powerful in either and if I was devoting a spot to a niche enabler I could find 20 better cards easily. And its impossible to not classify Izzet Charm as niche due to its restrictive color requirement (and the fact that all of the modes are overpriced meaning you have to want its utility rather than specifically be focused on one of its effects).
Maybe a U/R 4 drop isn't the card that a 360 combo/reanimator Cube wants but if so the reason has nothing to do with the "need" to run Izzet Charm. That notion seems to silly to me I'm not even sure how seriously to take it.
Izzet Charm fits in all of our Izzet decks, as well as giving slightly more support to Reanimator/Storm. Those decks play (and enjoy playing) Izzet Charm in them to find more important spells in storm, or pitch fatties in reanimator.
Dack's Duplicate is probably a much better card, as I mentioned in my set review, but it's not the right choice for our playgroup or archetypes we're trying to support. Dedicated storm decks inparticular take up a lot of draft slots -- so it's nice to have cards that can work in that deck plus be good in every other deck that plays those colors. Dack's Duplicate, while likely a slightly stonger card, does not give us that same utility.
You're welcome to decide how seriously or not seriously you can take my comments.
If 'starting player '= 'go first' that would mean that if you have this card you are forced to go first even if you don't want to. Doubt it would come up too often but there are some decks I could see avoiding the card for that reason.
You're not, actually. Just like you don't have to play that Jace that your Boros aggro deck hatedrafted.
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Rest in RIP My Signature, I guess. 2015-2016, we hardly knew ye.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
So I played with 8 conspiracies in my cube tonight. I hated them and I will be removing them for the next draft. They are probably fine in a powered cube, but they are not for mine.
Care to elaborate? 'I hated them' is not a great deal of feedback or testing result to go on, really. Which ones? Why did you hate them? Why are they OK in a powered cube but not an unpowered one?
Care to elaborate? 'I hated them' is not a great deal of feedback or testing result to go on, really. Which ones? Why did you hate them? Why are they OK in a powered cube but not an unpowered one?
After trying Worldknit, I think my brother and I are in the "hate it" camp. It possibly makes a mess of the whole draft and the deck you end up with isn't even that good. It definitely doesn't make it on power level so it is relying on the "fun factor". Pretty sure its our first Conspiracy cut.
The card's more restrained relative seems to have promise, Unexpected Potential. So far we're thinking about adding something awesome to spice it up like Nicol Bolas. Literally everyone loves casting him.
Worldknit is a very pack-dependent card. If you get it in the first pack, your deck will be pretty good. Second or third pack and it's almost assuredly going to be last picked. Very odd card in that regard, but if you haven't done at least three drafts where it's a P1P1, don't cut it quite yet!
Now, we have a very ridiculous disproportionate cube in that aggro and combo are both very heavily supported within our 360 cube. That being said, the two strategies we've seen be very successful with it are 5 color aggro and 5 color Planeswalker control.
When drafting aggro, just take every one mana 2/1 you see and try to get looting effects (Faithless Looting, Looter il-Kor, etc) to trade your last picks (which are normally 4cmc+) for better stuff. In pack 2, you can take 2cmc and 3cmc cards that work well in aggro while wheeling the one mana 2/1s. In pack 3, you will wheel all the one mana 2/1s (hopefully), so you can make sure you don't get 5+cmc uncastables. Another helpful tip is to take lands (not shocks!) in packs where you don't want any cards -- it will reduce the amount of total cards you'll have to play, and you can hit your one mana 2/1s more often. Lands that have other abilities (Maze of Ith, Manlands, Wasteland, etc) are exceptional cards to take, so don't be afraid to pass on the aggro card for the land, you'll probably wheel the aggro card.
In most cubes, and even in ours, 5-color Planeswalker Control is a safer option. Make sure your cards are high-impact and keep an eye on your curve. Worldknit decks do not like high CMC cards. Try to pass as much of the ramp deck as possible, you actually don't want to be getting Woodfall Primus and Myr Battlesphere. Having a curve of 2-6 with most of your cards being around 4cmc is the goal. Prioritize card draw spells like Fact or Fiction over nearly everything.
Oh, and it definitely screws up the draft for everyone. But that's part of the fun. We like having something very different every third draft (Worldknit will be in a first pack a third of the time).
Each time a Worldknit was taken and played in pack 1, the player won the draft. Every time it was taken and played in pack 2, the player lost the draft. Pack 3 it's just last picked (it should be last picked in Pack 2 as well, honestly).
Care to elaborate? 'I hated them' is not a great deal of feedback or testing result to go on, really. Which ones? Why did you hate them? Why are they OK in a powered cube but not an unpowered one?
Most of them completely warp the game. The cantrip one with Forbid, +1/+1 with Kitchen Finks, haste with Kalonian Hydra. The ones that let you play with 5 less cards or draw two opening hands are way overpowered. It made it feel like a powered cube, really swingy games, which I really do not like. Some of the lesser conspiracies are probably ok, but not worth me cutting a card from my cube. I might keep one or two, ill have to sit down and evaluate some more.
I really like the Cogworks that alter the drafts. They are a lot of fun.
Most of them completely warp the game. The cantrip one with Forbid, +1/+1 with Kitchen Finks, haste with Kalonian Hydra. The ones that let you play with 5 less cards or draw two opening hands are way overpowered. It made it feel like a powered cube, really swingy games, which I really do not like.
I'd say this is a really great testament to how powerful Conspiracies can be. They're definitely best in a powered cube with players that like wild, swingy games. I wrote a little bit about that in my Conspiracy review, but I may even edit it a bit and add a bit about how the Conspiracies are probably a better fit in a powered cube.
I almost wish I were playing Kalonian Hydra so Immediate Action would be even swingier for us, haha. I think the Hydra is in the top 5 things you can combo with Immediate Action.
Sad to hear that you guys didn't like the power added from them, but happy to hear you like Cogwork Librarian & friends!
The conspiracies are very strong, that's for sure. I certainly wouldn't recommend the better ones for an unpowered cube. In a powered cube they offer some top tier picks.
I also had Unexpected Potential but picked it up rather late and didn't end up with a great target for it (I may have overlooked some great off-color picks during the draft though, you really need to keep this kind of effect in mind and it's very possible I missed something). But then, it's never bad, I named Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to make sure I could always cast it.
Worldknit came up way too late to have a shot at being used. Power Play was also in the pool and is obviously good for whatever deck ends up with it.
Paliano, the High City was used every time since it was included (3 times) which is surprising to me, I was expecting it to be garbage in Rochester.
Canal Dredger netted its drafter 11 cards of which there were 3 playables, which I suppose is decent enough. I'm unsure about this card, it seems rather lazy and random.
Lurking Automaton has been 9/9 and 11/11 so far and was maindecked both times. If you want big and dumb, this is your guy.
I was iffy on Lore Seeker before trying it but I've loved it so far, adding another booster to the pool is such a great effect for everyone and getting first pick is really tempting. It got Umezawa's Jitte the first time it was drafted and Mox Sapphire the second, both times its drafter was obviously very happy.
Deal Broker didn't really repeat its great debut when it comes to the deal, but it was maindecked every time so it's a good card just the same.
Everyone should be using Cogwork Librarian, it's just that fun and powerful.
My problem with a lot of the cards from this set is that I want to play with them but they're all Artifacts. My Colorless section is already super tight . . .
"Person with Power Play is the starting player regardless of game. Person can choose not to play it in games 2/3 if desired."
Sorry about the mess above; this seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me (but news flash: lots of rules are :p). This is as official as it gets, folks. The card is officially bonkers.
Remember this post from yesterday? Well, I just got a completely different answer in the official Judge Forums. :/
I will try to sort this out, again. Stay tuned.
EDIT: It works like I originally posted, the player with Power Play chooses who starts for games 1,2,3.
The conspiracies are very strong, that's for sure. I certainly wouldn't recommend the better ones for an unpowered cube. In a powered cube they offer some top tier picks.
I also had Unexpected Potential but picked it up rather late and didn't end up with a great target for it (I may have overlooked some great off-color picks during the draft though, you really need to keep this kind of effect in mind and it's very possible I missed something). But then, it's never bad, I named Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to make sure I could always cast it.
Worldknit came up way too late to have a shot at being used. Power Play was also in the pool and is obviously good for whatever deck ends up with it.
Paliano, the High City was used every time since it was included (3 times) which is surprising to me, I was expecting it to be garbage in Rochester.
Canal Dredger netted its drafter 11 cards of which there were 3 playables, which I suppose is decent enough. I'm unsure about this card, it seems rather lazy and random.
Lurking Automaton has been 9/9 and 11/11 so far and was maindecked both times. If you want big and dumb, this is your guy.
I was iffy on Lore Seeker before trying it but I've loved it so far, adding another booster to the pool is such a great effect for everyone and getting first pick is really tempting. It got Umezawa's Jitte the first time it was drafted and Mox Sapphire the second, both times its drafter was obviously very happy.
Deal Broker didn't really repeat its great debut when it comes to the deal, but it was maindecked every time so it's a good card just the same.
Everyone should be using Cogwork Librarian, it's just that fun and powerful.
Excellent report Fredo, thank you for sharing your experiences with conspiracies!
So Canal Dredger got 11 cards and only 3 of them were playable? Hmm. Sounds like he may get cut soon! I don't like him much largely because he takes up a draft spot from a strategy that could use the card. It does seem lazy.
I'm not surprised Paliano saw play each time it was drafted -- I'd love to have another mana fixer of that quality, but I just don't have the room for it, and I'm at powered 360. I can imagine being at 450, you have a little more wiggle room.
Not really. As written, the card is quite clear. If it said "you play first each game" it would work like mr. Dandy Lions was suggesting, but it refers only to the "starting player" - and that's pretty well-defined in the rules.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
It says clearly on the card "start the game with this conspiracy face-up in the command zone. You are the starting player."
That's pretty unequivocal. Your argument is that it would break this rule:
But if that's the case, then Power Play is breaking this rule instead.
You can't haveit both ways.
I would suggest you re-read the rule I posted above and the card again as well, "dude".
edit: It does not say "usually"; I misread, so let's try again. You are indeed the starting player (obviously, that's the point of the card). But being the starting player only implies you play first the FIRST game; the other part of the rule says clearly games 2, 3 and beyond go on as normally.
edit2: but then again, Cube is a casual format; do what you and your playgroup see fit. If this was played in a tournament setting and someone asked me this question I would rule like I did, but Cube is far from a tournament format.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
also, "dude" is pretty much an affectionate term most of the time. If I called you a dude then it was because I think you are a cool and laid back regular guy. All my friends are dudes and I am a dude. No need to assume the worst, dude.
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I don't know, but currently Power Play does not have any additional rulings on Gatherer.
I would assume otherwise just with the rule I posted...
That's a fair question.
In post #53 above I was quoting the actual Comprehensive Rules and using my best judgement as a judge. But to be fair, I was checking a slightly older version of the rulebook and now we have rule 103.2c: "One card, Power Play, states that its controller is the starting player. This effect supersedes these methods." This sentence seems very ambiguous to me (English is not my native language) and I believe it refers to rules 103.2a and 103.2b (respectively about team games and Archenemy), but it's there nonetheless.
I asked for the official ruling on this matter and I should have it in a couple of hours. I will post it here as soon as I get it. But like I said above - do whatever you and your playgroup want to do.
edit:
Fair enough, I was too hasty in my response. It's very hard to convey (and understand) the correct tone online and I am certain it was used as a casual term. My line was a bit out of place and I apologize for that.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I asked both Matt Tabak (the Rules Manager) and the Judge Community via the proper channels, I will post the official ruling as soon as I get one.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
"Person with Power Play is the starting player regardless of game. Person can choose not to play it in games 2/3 if desired."
Sorry about the mess above; this seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me (but news flash: lots of rules are :p). This is as official as it gets, folks. The card is officially bonkers.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
Izzet Charm fits in all of our Izzet decks, as well as giving slightly more support to Reanimator/Storm. Those decks play (and enjoy playing) Izzet Charm in them to find more important spells in storm, or pitch fatties in reanimator.
Dack's Duplicate is probably a much better card, as I mentioned in my set review, but it's not the right choice for our playgroup or archetypes we're trying to support. Dedicated storm decks inparticular take up a lot of draft slots -- so it's nice to have cards that can work in that deck plus be good in every other deck that plays those colors. Dack's Duplicate, while likely a slightly stonger card, does not give us that same utility.
You're welcome to decide how seriously or not seriously you can take my comments.
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You're not, actually. Just like you don't have to play that Jace that your Boros aggro deck hatedrafted.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
After trying Worldknit, I think my brother and I are in the "hate it" camp. It possibly makes a mess of the whole draft and the deck you end up with isn't even that good. It definitely doesn't make it on power level so it is relying on the "fun factor". Pretty sure its our first Conspiracy cut.
The card's more restrained relative seems to have promise, Unexpected Potential. So far we're thinking about adding something awesome to spice it up like Nicol Bolas. Literally everyone loves casting him.
Now, we have a very ridiculous disproportionate cube in that aggro and combo are both very heavily supported within our 360 cube. That being said, the two strategies we've seen be very successful with it are 5 color aggro and 5 color Planeswalker control.
When drafting aggro, just take every one mana 2/1 you see and try to get looting effects (Faithless Looting, Looter il-Kor, etc) to trade your last picks (which are normally 4cmc+) for better stuff. In pack 2, you can take 2cmc and 3cmc cards that work well in aggro while wheeling the one mana 2/1s. In pack 3, you will wheel all the one mana 2/1s (hopefully), so you can make sure you don't get 5+cmc uncastables. Another helpful tip is to take lands (not shocks!) in packs where you don't want any cards -- it will reduce the amount of total cards you'll have to play, and you can hit your one mana 2/1s more often. Lands that have other abilities (Maze of Ith, Manlands, Wasteland, etc) are exceptional cards to take, so don't be afraid to pass on the aggro card for the land, you'll probably wheel the aggro card.
In most cubes, and even in ours, 5-color Planeswalker Control is a safer option. Make sure your cards are high-impact and keep an eye on your curve. Worldknit decks do not like high CMC cards. Try to pass as much of the ramp deck as possible, you actually don't want to be getting Woodfall Primus and Myr Battlesphere. Having a curve of 2-6 with most of your cards being around 4cmc is the goal. Prioritize card draw spells like Fact or Fiction over nearly everything.
Oh, and it definitely screws up the draft for everyone. But that's part of the fun. We like having something very different every third draft (Worldknit will be in a first pack a third of the time).
Each time a Worldknit was taken and played in pack 1, the player won the draft. Every time it was taken and played in pack 2, the player lost the draft. Pack 3 it's just last picked (it should be last picked in Pack 2 as well, honestly).
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Most of them completely warp the game. The cantrip one with Forbid, +1/+1 with Kitchen Finks, haste with Kalonian Hydra. The ones that let you play with 5 less cards or draw two opening hands are way overpowered. It made it feel like a powered cube, really swingy games, which I really do not like. Some of the lesser conspiracies are probably ok, but not worth me cutting a card from my cube. I might keep one or two, ill have to sit down and evaluate some more.
I really like the Cogworks that alter the drafts. They are a lot of fun.
https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I'd say this is a really great testament to how powerful Conspiracies can be. They're definitely best in a powered cube with players that like wild, swingy games. I wrote a little bit about that in my Conspiracy review, but I may even edit it a bit and add a bit about how the Conspiracies are probably a better fit in a powered cube.
I almost wish I were playing Kalonian Hydra so Immediate Action would be even swingier for us, haha. I think the Hydra is in the top 5 things you can combo with Immediate Action.
Sad to hear that you guys didn't like the power added from them, but happy to hear you like Cogwork Librarian & friends!
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https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/3pq
I used Double Stroke on Mind Twist , saw Iterative Analysis being used on Firebolt and Muzzio's Preparations on Gravecrawler. Brago's Favor was in a deck with Hero of Bladehold and Brimaz, King of Oreskos (go ahead and imagine casting either with a discount).
I also had Unexpected Potential but picked it up rather late and didn't end up with a great target for it (I may have overlooked some great off-color picks during the draft though, you really need to keep this kind of effect in mind and it's very possible I missed something). But then, it's never bad, I named Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to make sure I could always cast it.
Worldknit came up way too late to have a shot at being used. Power Play was also in the pool and is obviously good for whatever deck ends up with it.
Paliano, the High City was used every time since it was included (3 times) which is surprising to me, I was expecting it to be garbage in Rochester.
Canal Dredger netted its drafter 11 cards of which there were 3 playables, which I suppose is decent enough. I'm unsure about this card, it seems rather lazy and random.
Lurking Automaton has been 9/9 and 11/11 so far and was maindecked both times. If you want big and dumb, this is your guy.
I was iffy on Lore Seeker before trying it but I've loved it so far, adding another booster to the pool is such a great effect for everyone and getting first pick is really tempting. It got Umezawa's Jitte the first time it was drafted and Mox Sapphire the second, both times its drafter was obviously very happy.
Deal Broker didn't really repeat its great debut when it comes to the deal, but it was maindecked every time so it's a good card just the same.
Everyone should be using Cogwork Librarian, it's just that fun and powerful.
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Hmm, that might be a really good idea. I'll have to mull over how to appropriately enhance it.
Remember this post from yesterday? Well, I just got a completely different answer in the official Judge Forums. :/
I will try to sort this out, again. Stay tuned.
EDIT: It works like I originally posted, the player with Power Play chooses who starts for games 1,2,3.
Former DCI L2 Judge
My old Cube podcast on ManaDeprived, with Goodking and artbcnco: http://manadeprived.com/podcasts/mtgin3d/
You can find me on Twitter as well.
Excellent report Fredo, thank you for sharing your experiences with conspiracies!
So Canal Dredger got 11 cards and only 3 of them were playable? Hmm. Sounds like he may get cut soon! I don't like him much largely because he takes up a draft spot from a strategy that could use the card. It does seem lazy.
I'm not surprised Paliano saw play each time it was drafted -- I'd love to have another mana fixer of that quality, but I just don't have the room for it, and I'm at powered 360. I can imagine being at 450, you have a little more wiggle room.
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