If you saw it in a pack, would you take it over the cards you listed? Unless you have absolutely no idea how good a card would be or it requires some kind of crazy errata to make it work, I think it's safe to vote for it if you want to. But it's your list, and you can vote however you want. If you don't know how to rank a card, it's fine to decide to exclude it.
I only ever drafted power cards in virtual drafts (like at Cubetutor). I did what I was instructed: what I would most likely pick as P1P1 among all blue cube cards.
That's why I'm probably the only one who ranked Time Walk over Ancestral Recall, I do think I'd take the extra-turn over the extra-cards as P1P1.
I like this thinking. And while it's not at all incorrect, it's quite shocking what drawing 4 cards in between your opponent's end step and your 1st main phase does in the Cube
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Very interesting rankings! I'm surprised to see Stoneforge Mystic ranked so high - I didn't even vote her. I guess I would never take her P1P1 because I have a 720 cube, and there is a very legitimate chance that I would never see one of the swords, Jitte, or Skullclamp in my draft (those cards are valued very highly in my playgroup so it's not too likely that I would see one if I didn't open one).
Most of the time, in our Cube, getting a Sword with Stoneforge is a backup plan at best (we don't always run all 5 Swords..gonna be difficult for me on that point when we get to artifacts). If you don't get Jitte, Skullclamp, Batterskull, or maybe Wargear you might not even run Mystic. Still, if you want to move in on white you're going to have to first pick her and hope to pull a bomb equipment. Which is why I rated her so high.
After green, how will the votes go? As in the first post? (and if so, please explain better where lands go... wasteland and city of brass with the artifacts, dual lands with the guilds? And what about shard/wedge cards such as Nicol Bolas)
I have no idea how I am going to rank black. Black is basically modular in that you can't really support its crappy aggro creatures, combo, reanimator and the sac/Pox theme. They're all decent or better strategies (although the aggro package seems largely limited to a bunch of 1-drops..but Master of the Feast adds some appeal). Basically, the Reanimator is as absurd as you want to make it and if you push the Pox stuff hard enough your group will probably vote to disband the Cube rather than play with/against it. Not really looking forward to the vote because I will probably just be making stuff up.
I don't think the aggro package is just limited to a bunch of 1-drops. Black's disruption suite (and it's removal suite for that matter) are the bigger appeal to what it does for the aggro decks in the cube. The fact that it has a ton of playable 2-power 1-drops is an added bonus and the "push" it needs to be a big contributor to aggro's success in the cube.
Braids, Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant (not to mention the disruption and removal as wtwlf mentioned) are the black cards that draw me into aggro. Also being able to tutor for that Armageddon or Sword/Jitte never hurt :).
I can't imagine taking Elesh Norn first pick. I'd basically have to already be at least leaning toward ramp, reanimator, or Sneak Attack to taker her. She wheels in my group pretty often.
Black aggro is the nuts. All the cards mentioned above, the uniqueness of discard, the quality removal, Nether Void etc. A lot of black's random utility life-loss stuff is best in aggro anyway. Like White however, I don't expect a lot of the aggro one drops to rank particularly highly. They aren't generally the sort of thing I first pick. There are lots of B/x cards and a few select P1P1s that will definitely draw me into a black deck however.
While creating my list of top 20 blue cards, I also thought back to my top 20 white cards list and realized that there are basically three different methods to rank those cards:
There can be a huge difference between
(A) ranking cards by what I would P1P1.
(B) ranking cards by what a hypthecial drafter should P1P1.
(C) ranking cards according to their power level.
Now, the assignment is to rank the cards according to (A), but I sometimes feel like I inadvertently slip into (B) or especially (C) and that this creates quite different card placements. Sure, there is often an overlap between all three methods, but depending on the card, there can also be huge discrepancies. The main difference between (A) and (B) is the impact of personal preference. There are some cards that I just don't like to play or build a deck around, so I rank them lower than they probably should be ranked (example from blue: Vendilion Clique). The difference between (A) and (C) on the other hand is often related to how much I commit myself by taking a specific card. I would often first pick a splashable card that goes into all kinds of decks (like Restoration Angel) over a card that locks me into its color or even a special archetype. For this reason, Phyrexian Metamorph ranked quite highly on my blue list, even though several of the cards below it would be more powerful in a blue deck.
I can't imagine taking Elesh Norn first pick. I'd basically have to already be at least leaning toward ramp, reanimator, or Sneak Attack to taker her. She wheels in my group pretty often.
It's been consistently one of the best blue cards in our cube. Last deck I had with Shelldock Isle cast a Fact or Fiction, instant speed Myr Battlesphere combat blowout, and EOT Demonic Tutor. Maybe we appreciate the card more in a very powered 360, but a free spell is incredible in even an unpowered 720.
I recall one of the channelfireballers saying that Shelldock Isle is the most criminally underdrafted card in the modo cube, and I totally saw why in his games. We added it shortly after and it has been great for us.
I know an argument might be that Shelldock Isle is slow because it's a CITP tapped land, but if you think of all the times you play a Watery Grave untapped (EDIT: I meant TAPPED), it's a good bit of the time. I don't even side Shelldock Isle out against aggro because the card you hideaway can be an incredible blowout -- and our aggro sections are exceptionally fast (we play about the same amount of aggressive 1-and-2 drops wtwlf123 does but with 90 less total cards in our cube). Advantageous Proclamation (if you're playing with conspiracies, this one is incredible) also combos very well with it in that it reduces the time it takes to get Shelldock online.
Seeing how conspiracy is already out, is it too much work to redo the voting with conspiracy cards? That set do have some major impact on multicolor and white section, I believe. Note that I'm asking this as a user and not a mod, I just think since there isn't much voting that is done right now, correcting the section is a rather easy job and can be helpful in the 1 year future if not longer before we do another round of voting.
It's been consistently one of the best blue cards in our cube. Last deck I had with Shelldock Isle cast a Fact or Fiction, instant speed Myr Battlesphere combat blowout, and EOT Demonic Tutor. Maybe we appreciate the card more in a very powered 360, but a free spell is incredible in even an unpowered 720.
I love Shelldock Isle and would never cut it from my 600 cards cube. During our last draft, I was reminded how incredible the interaction with Fact or Fiction is: It turns the Isle on at instant speed increadibly early in the game. A friend used this combination to cast Sundering Titan as early as turn six during multiple games. The etb tapped drawback is also quite minor for a control deck. It is a great card that I certainly respect a lot.
That said, it is a land, not a spell, so I didn't put it on my blue top 20. Ranking Vedalken Shackles as a blue card is acceptable, since it is a spell that needs islands to work, but I find throwing spells and lands together abhorrent. The quality of blue spells is so high, that it wouldn't have made it into my top 10 anyway, so I decided to just leave it out of the whole top 20 to avoid having a land in a list of spells.
It's been consistently one of the best blue cards in our cube. Last deck I had with Shelldock Isle cast a Fact or Fiction, instant speed Myr Battlesphere combat blowout, and EOT Demonic Tutor. Maybe we appreciate the card more in a very powered 360, but a free spell is incredible in even an unpowered 720.
I recall one of the channelfireballers saying that Shelldock Isle is the most criminally underdrafted card in the modo cube, and I totally saw why in his games. We added it shortly after and it has been great for us.
I know an argument might be that Shelldock Isle is slow because it's a CITP tapped land, but if you think of all the times you play a Watery Grave untapped, it's a good bit of the time. I don't even side Shelldock Isle out against aggro because the card you hideaway can be an incredible blowout -- and our aggro sections are exceptionally fast (we play about the same amount of aggressive 1-and-2 drops wtwlf123 does but with 90 less total cards in our cube). Advantageous Proclamation (if you're playing with conspiracies, this one is incredible) also combos very well with it in that it reduces the time it takes to get Shelldock online.
Have you guys been underwhelmed with it?
I think you're right that if properly utilized it is top 10 material (in blue no less, which is that much more outrageous). That said, I'm not sure if it is a first pick or not. I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to get on my list so sacrifices had to be made.
Seeing how conspiracy is already out, is it too much work to redo the voting with conspiracy cards? That set do have some major impact on multicolor and white section, I believe. Note that I'm asking this as a user and not a mod, I just think since there isn't much voting that is done right now, correcting the section is a rather easy job and can be helpful in the 1 year future if not longer before we do another round of voting.
I agree because some cards get much better with the Hidden Agendas and if I am going to vote taking those into account then the Conspiracy is already tacitly under consideration. Not being able to vote for cards from the set just muddles the issue horribly.
Not usually, but I do like the blink deck so it's possible. Reveillark also isn't the worst curve topper for aggro. Having a 4/3 flier on the board that'll bring back two when dealt with is good. I think it's more flexible than Elesh Norn.
I don't think most of us have has time to put in much/any testing on Conspiracy cards. I think they should stay out. Also, redoing the voting would be a *****.
Besides the fact that Conspiracy is new (and there has been and will always been a new set at the time of PR voting), there hasn't truly been enough time to for everyone to get the cards, let alone have enough time to properly play and rate the cards that are in it. It's very easy to read a card and make a decent judgment call (in the case of Dack Fayden), but that can't be said for all of the cards. I'd rather everyone get some reps in with the new cards before we start voting on them conclusively. Hell, there are cards that have been out for years that people still haven't played with and cannot rank subjectively. I think it's too early to try and rank new cards that may become widely played in Cubes, that not everyone has played yet.
Case and point: Jace the Mind Sculptor was brand new at the time we ran our 2010 PR's and didn't get as much love as he is now (obviously a LOT more time than necessary has passed).
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom: The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray). The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it. The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
I am shocked how criminally underrated Shriekmaw is in the Black Top 20 voting thread. This card should be played in aggro, midrange, control, ramp, reanimator and even combo. It is also splashable and I would actually splash for it if I happen to pick up some fixing along the draft. Going into every single black deck, being easy to splash and being valuable to other colors (every deck wants to run some creature removal, but not all colors provide it) makes this one of the most perfect first picks! It is also flexible and powerful. Flexible because of its evoke option. Powerful, because cube is a creature-based format and one of the strongest things you can do is removing an opposing creature while gaining a creature for yourself with a single card. This is what makes Control Magic so powerful and the same logic applies to creatures that kill creatures on etb. And Shriekmaw is hands down the best of those. It is easily top 10 material and not putting it into the top 20 is just wrong.
I could have maybe justified putting it 16-20th. Although I will play it in any deck at all, removal is not that hard to come by, and it doesn't offer a unique effect. If I don't get my Bitterblossom or Tutors, there are not any other opportunities to get them. If I don't get my Shriekmaw, I can get a slightly inferior or similar standard of removal without compromising too much on my deck's overall strategy, either in red, white or black. There are many more cards that kill creatures than most any other effect in the cube, and it's the redundancy even for the really strong examples that prevents it from being higher on my list. I predict it to come out around 16-20 in the overall rankings, and that's probably its correct position.
I doubt I will vote for Shriekmaw because I can't envision that many packs where I will first pick it. GK is probably right that it could be one of the last 5 in, but to me those are spots to vote for anything I feel deserves to be mentioned rather than actually trying to figure out what the 17th best card to first pick in a color might be (which seems an exercise in futility to me)
While doing my black list, I realized that my black section has been in such flux that I am pretty dang stumped as to the order after the top five. Removal is especially difficult to place given the plethora of awesome black options these days. I realized I tend to get dragged into black by the creatures, and then scoop up removal or reanimation or even tutors.
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I like this thinking. And while it's not at all incorrect, it's quite shocking what drawing 4 cards in between your opponent's end step and your 1st main phase does in the Cube
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Most of the time, in our Cube, getting a Sword with Stoneforge is a backup plan at best (we don't always run all 5 Swords..gonna be difficult for me on that point when we get to artifacts). If you don't get Jitte, Skullclamp, Batterskull, or maybe Wargear you might not even run Mystic. Still, if you want to move in on white you're going to have to first pick her and hope to pull a bomb equipment. Which is why I rated her so high.
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My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I can't imagine taking Elesh Norn first pick. I'd basically have to already be at least leaning toward ramp, reanimator, or Sneak Attack to taker her. She wheels in my group pretty often.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
There can be a huge difference between
(A) ranking cards by what I would P1P1.
(B) ranking cards by what a hypthecial drafter should P1P1.
(C) ranking cards according to their power level.
Now, the assignment is to rank the cards according to (A), but I sometimes feel like I inadvertently slip into (B) or especially (C) and that this creates quite different card placements. Sure, there is often an overlap between all three methods, but depending on the card, there can also be huge discrepancies. The main difference between (A) and (B) is the impact of personal preference. There are some cards that I just don't like to play or build a deck around, so I rank them lower than they probably should be ranked (example from blue: Vendilion Clique). The difference between (A) and (C) on the other hand is often related to how much I commit myself by taking a specific card. I would often first pick a splashable card that goes into all kinds of decks (like Restoration Angel) over a card that locks me into its color or even a special archetype. For this reason, Phyrexian Metamorph ranked quite highly on my blue list, even though several of the cards below it would be more powerful in a blue deck.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
you'd first-pick Reveillark though?
It's been consistently one of the best blue cards in our cube. Last deck I had with Shelldock Isle cast a Fact or Fiction, instant speed Myr Battlesphere combat blowout, and EOT Demonic Tutor. Maybe we appreciate the card more in a very powered 360, but a free spell is incredible in even an unpowered 720.
I recall one of the channelfireballers saying that Shelldock Isle is the most criminally underdrafted card in the modo cube, and I totally saw why in his games. We added it shortly after and it has been great for us.
I know an argument might be that Shelldock Isle is slow because it's a CITP tapped land, but if you think of all the times you play a Watery Grave untapped (EDIT: I meant TAPPED), it's a good bit of the time. I don't even side Shelldock Isle out against aggro because the card you hideaway can be an incredible blowout -- and our aggro sections are exceptionally fast (we play about the same amount of aggressive 1-and-2 drops wtwlf123 does but with 90 less total cards in our cube). Advantageous Proclamation (if you're playing with conspiracies, this one is incredible) also combos very well with it in that it reduces the time it takes to get Shelldock online.
Have you guys been underwhelmed with it?
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That said, it is a land, not a spell, so I didn't put it on my blue top 20. Ranking Vedalken Shackles as a blue card is acceptable, since it is a spell that needs islands to work, but I find throwing spells and lands together abhorrent. The quality of blue spells is so high, that it wouldn't have made it into my top 10 anyway, so I decided to just leave it out of the whole top 20 to avoid having a land in a list of spells.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I think you're right that if properly utilized it is top 10 material (in blue no less, which is that much more outrageous). That said, I'm not sure if it is a first pick or not. I had a bunch of stuff I wanted to get on my list so sacrifices had to be made.
I agree because some cards get much better with the Hidden Agendas and if I am going to vote taking those into account then the Conspiracy is already tacitly under consideration. Not being able to vote for cards from the set just muddles the issue horribly.
Not usually, but I do like the blink deck so it's possible. Reveillark also isn't the worst curve topper for aggro. Having a 4/3 flier on the board that'll bring back two when dealt with is good. I think it's more flexible than Elesh Norn.
I don't think most of us have has time to put in much/any testing on Conspiracy cards. I think they should stay out. Also, redoing the voting would be a *****.
Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
Case and point: Jace the Mind Sculptor was brand new at the time we ran our 2010 PR's and didn't get as much love as he is now (obviously a LOT more time than necessary has passed).
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Subsequently, BLACK Voting is now OPEN.
NorCal Crew Collective Cube on Cube Tutor
My 2009 Cube Draft Article - "With The First Pick..."
2009 Official Cube Power Rankings
2010 Official Cube Power Rankings
2014 Official Cube Power Rankings
Silent Edge's Tidbits of Wisdom:
The Lewis Theory - When the presence of a single card makes every other card in your deck better (see Lewis, Ray).
The Rubber Edict - You'd rather have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.
The Shotgun Wedding - Don't commit early unless you absolutely have to.
Twitter: @archplus3
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!