I can't believe there's not an SCD on Timetwister already, but I tried the search function a few times and came up blank.
I am mainly interested in discussing using this card in otherwise unpowered cubes. It seems good, but about on par with regularly cubed cards like Balance, Armageddon, Wheel of Fortune, and so forth. Unlike cards like Mind Twist, Timetwister seems "fun" to lose to, because it lets both players see more cards. Anyway, thinking of adding this guy to my unpowered cube.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
I agree that it's a fun, splashy effect, but let's face it: even though cube is a casual format, most of the time you're still trying to brew decks that will WIN, because we all love WINNING. If you want to win with Timetwister you better be drafting storm or the like. As the blue mage, playing a sorcery-speed card that lets your opponent reshuffle their yard and draw SEVEN cube cards seems pretty janky 90%+ of the time.
I think the cards you mentioned: Wheel of Fortune. Armageddon, and Balance, especially Balance, are ALL more powerful and relevant than the twister, in MOST cube lists. Again, if storm and/or durdling around with Heartbeat of Spring/extra turns etc etc is possible in your list, by all means go nuts.
Timetwister has been considered the runt of the litter almost from the inception of the Power Nine. If anything, its spot belongs to Sol Ring or Library of Alexandria. With the knowledge of game theory we have today, that decision would immediately be apparent in 1994. It retains its status purely due to established tradition. I wouldn't call it pure jank though. Like Wheel of Fortune, it's devastating in a deck with a lower curve. You get the first crack at the cards, although its value goes down without the presence of power. As the blue mage, you also get to say no to the worst of the opponent's spells. I definitely don't need storm to play it.
It is roughly as powerful as Wheel of Fortune and Time Spiral. Actually even slightly less powerful than both those cards. You can run it without the fear of ruining drafts with it.
Timetwister is a magnificent card, and one of the many blue cards that encourages us to go blue in our aggro decks. It's obviously not primarily a control card, but like Wheel of Fortune and the other cheap draw sevens, it generates massive card advantage when you can empty your hand significantly faster than your opponent. You don't need to be enforcing Storm to make TT playable, and most cubes don't run that parasitic archetype anyway and still get mileage from TT.
That said, it is absolutely fine in an unpowered cube. It doesn't do something incredibly broken, doesn't automatically go into a deck of its colour, and is fine if you don't consider Wheel of Fortune overpowered. It is usually slightly less good than the latter card because red is considered more likely to form an aggro archetype, but in reality we see red control decks that DON'T want Wheel of Fortune and blue aggro decks that would love to have it, reasonably frequently.
@ Big Jim: We don't currently run fast artifact mana, and the performance was identical with and without that package.
Hey kids, do you like Wheel of Fortune? Like how it turns your 1-2 card hand of do-nothings into a full hand?
*shows a player who was sad with 1-2 cards now overjoyed with a full grip*
But it's just for red mages, right?!
*shows a player in red with a full grip overjoyed with a sad blue mage who somehow has just 1-2 cards*
NOW HERE'S TIMETWISTER!
Don't have Goblin Guide in your deck? Who cares! You still draw 7! In tempo? Draw 7! Looking for a splash for your mono-white deck to go with your Snapcaster Mage? No problem, it's Timetwister!
There are lots of good places for this in unpowered. Any low curve deck can handle it. Counter/ Burn is one of the better ones with this. Dropping some early bolt, than a Pyromancer, hit the draw seven to reload, then fire again. Also control deck have big outs. I played a friends cube and enjoyed timetwistering in my pure control deck. I had upheaval, wrath, and verdict along with some other bounce. If they are playing a creature deck it would often cause them to lay out 2-3 threats after a twister, and then I would just wrath. I am now multiple cards ahead.
Going Eot bounce, Snapcaster bounce you other guy, my turn twister is sexy.
Ok, I'm sold. Adding it in. I am also looking forward to its potential in ramp strategies that drop a bunch of early accelerators and could use the draw.
Total side note but I like how people are discussing running this over itself.
Well, it has to be said that Kolaghan is clearly better than Kolaghan. Considering what BR decks usually want and how stiff the competition in this guild is, there is no way that I would run Kolaghan over Kolaghan! Kolaghan might make it in as the sixth guild card or so. Kolaghan on the other hand ranks several places below that.
It was so funny to me when they described this as a downgrade to the original Zurgo during the Pax East panel. I was thinking if this is a downgrade, they should really "downgrade" all legendary creatures. Haha.
My deck designing is quite concise at this point:
1. Come up with deck idea
2. Realize this idea is somehow fundamentally similar to another deck I have or that is commonly played in my group
3. Decide I don't want to disassemble one of my existing decks
4. Give up and do nothing
I don't see the point of this new shroud mechanic. It's strictly worse than Hexproof. Threshold is pretty bad too, Delirium is a much better mechanic and probably easier to activate.
Otherwise this card is a pretty neat guy. Dodges removal and grows into a Primal Huntbeast. 3/5
About 1/5 of the powered cubes don't even run Timetwister, because they consider it not good enough.
If you are already supporting blue decks that want Time Spiral, the 3 mana version is a fine addition (powerwise).
I'm curious how it will play out. My gut says there's some blue decks that want both, but also decks that only want one. What's pushing me over the edge I think is that I want to try to support blue tempo as much as possible without playing many cards only good in blue tempo. I think Timetwister will help with that. I am also hoping it will help U/x ramp decks.
I run Timetwister in my unpowered Travel Cube - it's never felt unbalanced with it in decks. We find it fun and since I had one I decided why the heck not play it?
For a long time I've used Timetwister in unpowered cubes on cockatrice and seen it used in many other cubes people have run and never did it seem consistently OP. Draw 7s for 3 are still good, but it's less likely you'll empty you're hand before your opponent has done much and reset both hands, giving you fresh gas and your opponent a random 7 with way less resources to use the random 7. It's without a doubt an unpowered staple because draw 7s for 2U is a strong effect, probably all the way down to the 360, but the symmetrical effect is a bit more fair.
I'm surprised that 1/5 of the powered cubes aren't using it. Perhaps they're larger cubes with less of a chance of power-heavy drafts, but there are so many cards that can help break open Timetwister when you have moxen, sol ring, etc.
I can't believe there's not an SCD on Timetwister already, but I tried the search function a few times and came up blank.
I am mainly interested in discussing using this card in otherwise unpowered cubes. It seems good, but about on par with regularly cubed cards like Balance, Armageddon, Wheel of Fortune, and so forth. Unlike cards like Mind Twist, Timetwister seems "fun" to lose to, because it lets both players see more cards. Anyway, thinking of adding this guy to my unpowered cube.
It certainly seems fine.
I think the cards you mentioned: Wheel of Fortune. Armageddon, and Balance, especially Balance, are ALL more powerful and relevant than the twister, in MOST cube lists. Again, if storm and/or durdling around with Heartbeat of Spring/extra turns etc etc is possible in your list, by all means go nuts.
My Cube (DeckStats)
My Pauper Cube: 540 (CubeTutor link!)
Level 1 Judge
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
That said, it is absolutely fine in an unpowered cube. It doesn't do something incredibly broken, doesn't automatically go into a deck of its colour, and is fine if you don't consider Wheel of Fortune overpowered. It is usually slightly less good than the latter card because red is considered more likely to form an aggro archetype, but in reality we see red control decks that DON'T want Wheel of Fortune and blue aggro decks that would love to have it, reasonably frequently.
@ Big Jim: We don't currently run fast artifact mana, and the performance was identical with and without that package.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
*shows a player who was sad with 1-2 cards now overjoyed with a full grip*
But it's just for red mages, right?!
*shows a player in red with a full grip overjoyed with a sad blue mage who somehow has just 1-2 cards*
NOW HERE'S TIMETWISTER!
Don't have Goblin Guide in your deck? Who cares! You still draw 7! In tempo? Draw 7! Looking for a splash for your mono-white deck to go with your Snapcaster Mage? No problem, it's Timetwister!
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Going Eot bounce, Snapcaster bounce you other guy, my turn twister is sexy.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
I'm curious how it will play out. My gut says there's some blue decks that want both, but also decks that only want one. What's pushing me over the edge I think is that I want to try to support blue tempo as much as possible without playing many cards only good in blue tempo. I think Timetwister will help with that. I am also hoping it will help U/x ramp decks.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'm surprised that 1/5 of the powered cubes aren't using it. Perhaps they're larger cubes with less of a chance of power-heavy drafts, but there are so many cards that can help break open Timetwister when you have moxen, sol ring, etc.
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