I am new to building a cube currently, and am looking at making it similar to a core set, with no multicolored cards, and simply put, just some good quality stuff that will impress my family and friends whom decide to use it.
I am allowing every color to have ONE Legendary Creature, and with Blue, well, I have come to a stalemate.
The first Creature I'll mention, is Vendilion Clique, and after reviewing other cube lists that I have seen here, I have seen Vendilion Clique being a preffered 3-mana cost for blue, having superb power to help decide and control some of the early game. She is deadly, able to flash on your opponents turn, and simply cause a little chaos with her 3 evasive power. I have always loved the clique, which is why the next one is hard for me as well. The cube, will have some flicker affects, but mainly in White.
Thassa, God of the Sea, My personal favorite of the Gods in the Theros Block, and most certainly the most playable I feel. If you have the right devotion, she is a 5/5 that can give herself and/or other fatties played evasive abilities. Scrying in Limited is a fantastic ability that I know, and being pretty big as she is, well, I'd enjoy using her for my cube, but the downside, is that there will not be many creatures for blue in the early part of the game(s), and her coming down early for a creature may appear irrealevant.
I would like to hear opinions on what you guys would like to use, and why? They both are capable of making a lot of fun in a Limited Format. They both fit in my 3-mana slot, and bring a lot to the table. I will only make room for one. Thanks for looking!
Wile I love Thassa, given your constraints, I would have to say clique. It represents everything I want blue to be. It is a flyer, it is disruption, it flashes in to keep counter magic up or ambush an attacker, it plays well with flicker. I am comfortable saying it is the best blue creature ever printed, and one of the best creatures period. Thassa is just fine by comparison.
Now you are building a very specific kind of cube so maybe you want the lone legendary to have some some epic status, so flavor wise it is up to you.
The only legendary blue creature that is on par with Clique (although Clique is likely better) is Meloku the Clouded-Mirror. So, really that's the choice. Thassa is good, but she can't compete against those two.
I like Thassa, God of the Sea more than quite a few people, but the comparison is insulting to the good legendary blue creatures. Vendilion Clique is LEAGUES better than Thassa.
One legendary creature per color is a brutal restriction, and it hurts blue a lot. Meloku the Clouded Mirror and Venser, Shaper Savant are two more legendary creatures that are significantly better than Thassa. All 3 of those creatures are staples, and it would be an awful loss to get rid of any of them.
Seems convincing. Yes, in the end the choice is mine, however, you guys have convinced me that the clique is what is more needed. I may lift the restrictions with legendaries, but I want to balance out my cube with all colors too. I only have a few spots open with 3cc, but I may just throw them both in there when I get the time.
Legendary creatures aren't fundamentally better than regular ones–in fact, most of them are garbage. The ban seems pretty arbitrary to me. If you're comfortable lifting it, I'd recommend doing so.
Legendary creatures aren't fundamentally better than regular ones–in fact, most of them are garbage. The ban seems pretty arbitrary to me. If you're comfortable lifting it, I'd recommend doing so.
I wanted to make it as basic as I can, while still using the cube with family and friends, especially ones whom are new to the game so that way I wouldn't have to answer to many questions at a single time. I am only adding one copy of any card I am using. It is silly, and will be changing it too, since I want my friends to know all the aspects of the game as possible, so, I will probably be adding more. I already have a list ready to go that didn't include many legendaries as it was. I am all up for change, but keeping everything modern frame pre-M15 I am new to this format, but, am already having fun in collecting the cards that I am going at.
I agree that the Clique is pretty freakishly amazing, but I still believe that Thassa is amazing in limited. I am having a rough time trying to get a Tarmogoyf for the list as it is. The clique will indeed be going in however. Just needed ya'll to tip the scale. I'll put the others into consideration in adding into the cube in general. I appreciate the feedback!
I think the Legendary restriction thing is arbitrary, especially in a singleton format where the rule does not apply except in a few corner cases. (The Legendary rule BTW is easy to understand and intuitive as well). I think playing with Legends enhances the game experience, having lots of flavour and giving identity to cards; they are way cooler than just generic soldiers or zombies.
As per your question, Clique by a wide margin. In my 450 I have a Clique but no Thassa. Thassa is OK, but you have to change the blue components of your Cube. Blue has more spells than permanents - and those permanents are mostly finishers already. In a modern cube, I can imagine blue having more permanents as it loses the best counter spells. But even then, Clique is far better.
Good luck in your cube creation and hope your family and friends enjoy playing it as much as you enjoy building it.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
Thassa should really only be a consideration if you're a hardcore supporter of blue aggro, since she's one of the main incentives to go in that direction. That said, every healthy cube should have a place for Vendillion Clique. 3 power flash flying is already a serious clock, and it offers blue hand disruption, an extremely powerful ability for that color. I can't think of a blue-heavy deck that doesn't want it.
9.9% of legendary creatures are from the Legends set. That skews the power level of legendary creatures more than a little.
Are any of the Legends legendary creatures commonly cubed? Off the top of my head, the best ones are three colors. If anything, Legends skews the power level of cubeable Legendary creatures *downward.*
Are any of the Legends legendary creatures commonly cubed? Off the top of my head, the best ones are three colors. If anything, Legends skews the power level of cubeable Legendary creatures *downward.*
I think what he means is that when you look at the percentage of creatures in the cube that are legendary vs the creatures in Magic that are legendary, it doesn't mean as much because such a huge percentage of them are from the Legends set. So if you discounted the Legends set, the number of legendary creatures in the cube would be a greater percentage of the legendary creatures out there from playable sets.
Like, the cube represents a greater percentage of the legendary creatures that have been printed outside of the Legends set, because it makes up a good percentage of the legends in Magic.
Legendary creatures are only slightly overrepresented in cube: 9.6% of the creatures in a cube are legendary, while 7.4% of all creatures are legendary.
I think what he means is that when you look at the percentage of creatures in the cube that are legendary vs the creatures in Magic that are legendary, it doesn't mean as much because such a huge percentage of them are from the Legends set. So if you discounted the Legends set, the number of legendary creatures in the cube would be a greater percentage of the legendary creatures out there from playable sets.
Yeah, you're probably right. That makes more sense.
Thassa should really only be a consideration if you're a hardcore supporter of blue aggro, since she's one of the main incentives to go in that direction.
I disagree. Thassa is more for midrange and control decks than for aggro decks. Mostly creature heavy midrange, but control can make good use of the constant scrying, too.
Also, 'unblockable' isn't too fun. Been on the giving and receiving end, and it doesn't seem fair at all. The Scry 1 also makes you feel a bit helpless and we won't get into 'indestructible.' All non-interactive abilities.
Clique is pretty unique in that if she does take a card, she gives you one back (it seems fair anyways) Her 1 toughness is totally reasonable. Mostly interactive abilities.
Also, 'unblockable' isn't too fun. Been on the giving and receiving end, and it doesn't seem fair at all. The Scry 1 also makes you feel a bit helpless and we won't get into 'indestructible.' All non-interactive abilities.
Clique is pretty unique in that if she does take a card, she gives you one back (it seems fair anyways) Her 1 toughness is totally reasonable. Mostly interactive abilities.
Thassa is a perfectly interactive card. You can turn off her being a creature by nuking other permanents, you can still respond to the unblockable activations by killing the creature they are trying to make unblockable, you can still kill her with toughness reducing effects or edicts (if they are getting their devotion from non-creature permanents), etc. Thassa is undoubtedly one of the fairer cards in cube.
Also, 'unblockable' isn't too fun. Been on the giving and receiving end, and it doesn't seem fair at all. The Scry 1 also makes you feel a bit helpless and we won't get into 'indestructible.' All non-interactive abilities.
Clique is pretty unique in that if she does take a card, she gives you one back (it seems fair anyways) Her 1 toughness is totally reasonable. Mostly interactive abilities.
Thassa is a perfectly interactive card. You can turn off her being a creature by nuking other permanents, you can still respond to the unblockable activations by killing the creature they are trying to make unblockable, you can still kill her with toughness reducing effects or edicts (if they are getting their devotion from non-creature permanents), etc. Thassa is undoubtedly one of the fairer cards in cube.
So you're saying the way to interact with Thassa is not to interact with her at all, but kill everything around her. But she's still around and she still filters your draws (ie not interactive for you). As soon as you drop a threat, it's unblockable.
Yeah, totally the opposite of the definition of 'interactive.'
I think it's a perfectly reasonable card. I don't fault cards for being "non-interactive" because that has no impact on whether or not a card is good. Despite her abilities limiting some interactions (yes, she makes things unblockable) she's absolutely a "fair" cube card. The non-interactive component's don't actually create a problem (the card isn't even close to overpowered) and you CAN interact with the things that make her good. You can kill the creatures she's making unblockable. You can kill the permanents that turn her into a threat. So the only thing that you can't interact with is the 3 mana scry 1 per turn ...which isn't powerful enough to whine about. I cut her for not being good enough. So excluding her because she creates scenarios that are too "unfun" or whatever for her opponent to deal with makes no sense to me.
So you're saying the way to interact with Thassa is not to interact with her at all, but kill everything around her. But she's still around and she still filters your draws (ie not interactive for you). As soon as you drop a threat, it's unblockable.
Yeah, totally the opposite of the definition of 'interactive.'
wtwlf said pretty much everything I was going to say to this, but in addition she also dies to any exile effect, whether a creature if she's active or an enchantment, so she is far from unkillable. It's not like she has hexproof or pro everything.
Since we are only comparing the two cards, I tried to keep it on topic and introducing a point no one else made. I'm not going to debate every scenario possible.
That's totally cool, and I'm glad you brought it up. If you A) consider it non-interactive, and B) consider non-interactivity important, it's a perfectly reasonable reason to exclude one and play the other. I just don't think it is non-interactive, and I don't think it would be a problem even if it was.
But even in a heads-up comparison between the two cards, I'd rather see Thassa on the other side of the table any day of the week than have my opponent playing Clique against me instead. Interactivity be damned, the cards aren't even remotely close in power-level. I'd argue that the Clique is even more non-interactive, if anything. Not only does it have evasion, and function as a threat entirely on its own, but it also strips the card from my hand I might have needed to combat it or the combat board state.
I am allowing every color to have ONE Legendary Creature, and with Blue, well, I have come to a stalemate.
The first Creature I'll mention, is Vendilion Clique, and after reviewing other cube lists that I have seen here, I have seen Vendilion Clique being a preffered 3-mana cost for blue, having superb power to help decide and control some of the early game. She is deadly, able to flash on your opponents turn, and simply cause a little chaos with her 3 evasive power. I have always loved the clique, which is why the next one is hard for me as well. The cube, will have some flicker affects, but mainly in White.
Thassa, God of the Sea, My personal favorite of the Gods in the Theros Block, and most certainly the most playable I feel. If you have the right devotion, she is a 5/5 that can give herself and/or other fatties played evasive abilities. Scrying in Limited is a fantastic ability that I know, and being pretty big as she is, well, I'd enjoy using her for my cube, but the downside, is that there will not be many creatures for blue in the early part of the game(s), and her coming down early for a creature may appear irrealevant.
I would like to hear opinions on what you guys would like to use, and why? They both are capable of making a lot of fun in a Limited Format. They both fit in my 3-mana slot, and bring a lot to the table. I will only make room for one. Thanks for looking!
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
Now you are building a very specific kind of cube so maybe you want the lone legendary to have some some epic status, so flavor wise it is up to you.
Cheers,
rant
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One legendary creature per color is a brutal restriction, and it hurts blue a lot. Meloku the Clouded Mirror and Venser, Shaper Savant are two more legendary creatures that are significantly better than Thassa. All 3 of those creatures are staples, and it would be an awful loss to get rid of any of them.
Edit: \/ \/ \/ Corrected. Thanks.
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Cheers,
rant
My Cube
CubeCobra: https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/5f5d0310ed602310515d4c32
Cube Tutor: http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1963
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
I wanted to make it as basic as I can, while still using the cube with family and friends, especially ones whom are new to the game so that way I wouldn't have to answer to many questions at a single time. I am only adding one copy of any card I am using. It is silly, and will be changing it too, since I want my friends to know all the aspects of the game as possible, so, I will probably be adding more. I already have a list ready to go that didn't include many legendaries as it was. I am all up for change, but keeping everything modern frame pre-M15 I am new to this format, but, am already having fun in collecting the cards that I am going at.
I agree that the Clique is pretty freakishly amazing, but I still believe that Thassa is amazing in limited. I am having a rough time trying to get a Tarmogoyf for the list as it is. The clique will indeed be going in however. Just needed ya'll to tip the scale. I'll put the others into consideration in adding into the cube in general. I appreciate the feedback!
EDH DECKS
Currently under construction
MAGECRAFT STORM
-Veyran, Voice of Duality-
Protection from Degeneracy
Do not pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one.
As per your question, Clique by a wide margin. In my 450 I have a Clique but no Thassa. Thassa is OK, but you have to change the blue components of your Cube. Blue has more spells than permanents - and those permanents are mostly finishers already. In a modern cube, I can imagine blue having more permanents as it loses the best counter spells. But even then, Clique is far better.
Good luck in your cube creation and hope your family and friends enjoy playing it as much as you enjoy building it.
My 380 Beginners’ Cube on Cube Tutor
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less." -Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
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Are any of the Legends legendary creatures commonly cubed? Off the top of my head, the best ones are three colors. If anything, Legends skews the power level of cubeable Legendary creatures *downward.*
I think what he means is that when you look at the percentage of creatures in the cube that are legendary vs the creatures in Magic that are legendary, it doesn't mean as much because such a huge percentage of them are from the Legends set. So if you discounted the Legends set, the number of legendary creatures in the cube would be a greater percentage of the legendary creatures out there from playable sets.
Like, the cube represents a greater percentage of the legendary creatures that have been printed outside of the Legends set, because it makes up a good percentage of the legends in Magic.
..........
At least, that's how I interpreted it.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
Yeah, you're probably right. That makes more sense.
I disagree. Thassa is more for midrange and control decks than for aggro decks. Mostly creature heavy midrange, but control can make good use of the constant scrying, too.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Clique is pretty unique in that if she does take a card, she gives you one back (it seems fair anyways) Her 1 toughness is totally reasonable. Mostly interactive abilities.
Thassa is a perfectly interactive card. You can turn off her being a creature by nuking other permanents, you can still respond to the unblockable activations by killing the creature they are trying to make unblockable, you can still kill her with toughness reducing effects or edicts (if they are getting their devotion from non-creature permanents), etc. Thassa is undoubtedly one of the fairer cards in cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
So you're saying the way to interact with Thassa is not to interact with her at all, but kill everything around her. But she's still around and she still filters your draws (ie not interactive for you). As soon as you drop a threat, it's unblockable.
Yeah, totally the opposite of the definition of 'interactive.'
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!
wtwlf said pretty much everything I was going to say to this, but in addition she also dies to any exile effect, whether a creature if she's active or an enchantment, so she is far from unkillable. It's not like she has hexproof or pro everything.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
But even in a heads-up comparison between the two cards, I'd rather see Thassa on the other side of the table any day of the week than have my opponent playing Clique against me instead. Interactivity be damned, the cards aren't even remotely close in power-level. I'd argue that the Clique is even more non-interactive, if anything. Not only does it have evasion, and function as a threat entirely on its own, but it also strips the card from my hand I might have needed to combat it or the combat board state.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 49th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from MKM!