I was just implying it's less fragile than Phyrexian Revoker, that's it. PR is almost certainly a better card for cube.
My mistake. I agree that Revoker is more fragile, but I'm more willing to accept its fragility because of how it impacts the game/board, and the versatility of being able to be played by any deck of any color.
My mistake. I agree that Revoker is more fragile, but I'm more willing to accept its fragility because of how it impacts the game/board, and the versatility of being able to be played by any deck of any color.
Guess I should have added a little more to the discussion. I initially thought this guy was going to be very good but after thinking about it more I think it suffers from the same problem as Banefire where the hosing ability is quite good but what it's hosing is in too limited quantities in cube to be very useful. We could have really used this guy a few years ago :/
Ya, the competition at the 2cc white creature slot gets more and more competitive with each block. It's hard to crack into that group, and ultimately I don't think this guy will do it. Only testing will let us know for sure.
Valid points on keeping Accorder Paladin for token support seeing as I'm trying to support white tokens more.
I also have been contemplating cutting steppe lynx, which has been brought up elsewhere in this forum as an underwhelming 1 drop. Eight-and-a-Half Tails is also up for cutting.
You need to count the non-blue cards and colourless options (Blue has a load) that this hoses, and work out the proportion of those in the average deck you might face. I'm going to do the numbers later. It's maybe good for the card that white doesn't have many, but it depends on the numbers elsewhere.
I got almost exactly the same figures, just under 10%. That's something like 2.4 cards per deck as a simple average. That might not be enough to make this guy worthwhile, but its WCS being OK and the potential high impact is enough to test it. There's not much it interacts with in G/W/R, but a decent smattering in blue/colourless/black and gold cards. Have to try it and see, I guess.
EDIT: Yeah, it doesn't affect CC and Remand particularly. Gave 'em a half mark each in my own count.
I'd just remove Remand and similar cards from the count as realistically they aren't being affected much. Also Prophetic Bolt and Forbidden Alchemy don't draw cards.
We had our first Spirit of the Labyrinth deck played today.
I played against it and both games it caused me to not be able to play my compulsive research and/or Thirst for knowledge while applying the beat down.
Seems like a borderline card at 450.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
That's the remarkable thing about life. It's never so bad that it can't get worse
Calvin and Hobbes Cube Tutor
Spirit was played this past weekend. It performed well as expected against blue, and was an on curve body otherwise. Not necessary for smaller cubes I think. Larger cubes should be able to find room for her tho.
This card was played in my cube. It only served as a 3/1, but that was all it needed to be - it followed a Stromkirk Noble and preceded Brimaz. That game ended quickly.
This card was played in my cube. It only served as a 3/1, but that was all it needed to be - it followed a Stromkirk Noble and preceded Brimaz. That game ended quickly.
I put Spirit over blade because I think that the ability to hose draw effects is worth the drawback of dying to enchantment removal. Spirit getting disenchanted means that your equipment or Anthem will be safe and targeted enchantment removal in cube costs at least as much as the Spirit herself. However, there are two similar creatures who don't depend on your opponent having specific cards and are generally better for beating down. And Skyjek doesn't make it into smaller cubes already, so I can't see Spirit being worth it for anything but a large list.
I'm wondering if this dude should be brought out of retirement to counter all these aggressive draw engines.
The issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that it's symmetrical. I'd rather just remove my opponent's engine and abuse my own (Skullclamp / Palace Jailer / Staff of the Storyteller / Esper Sentinel / etc).
I'm wondering if this dude should be brought out of retirement to counter all these aggressive draw engines.
The issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that it's symmetrical. I'd rather just remove my opponent's engine and abuse my own (Skullclamp / Palace Jailer / Staff of the Storyteller / Esper Sentinel / etc).
I'm more concerned about the 1 toughness. I've been told you better have a VERY good reason to play something of 1 toughness that is 2+ CMC or higher.
Solid card, I ran it for years before swapping it out for variety rather than power.
It's symetrical, but so are alot of cards; Balance, Armageddon, Wrath of God. You just have to be aware of what it's shutting off in your own deck and play accordingly. If your the agressive deck it's likly hurting your opponent alot more.
1 toughness is weak, but it also means it can be clamped or killed pretty easily when you want it off board.
Not a staple but I wouldn't think it was weird if I seen it in a list.
It's symetrical, but so are alot of cards; Balance, Armageddon, Wrath of God. You just have to be aware of what it's shutting off in your own deck and play accordingly.
The difference between Spirit of the Labyrinth and those sweepers is that it's much easier to tailor your deck around the sweepers to be very asymmetrical. It's much harder to break the symmetry of Spirit of the Labyrinth.
If your the agressive deck it's likly hurting your opponent alot more.
This was much more true back when Spirit of the Labyrinth was printed, but there are so many card draw engines now regardless of color / archetype. Back in the day the aggro deck really only had Skullclamp / Sword of Fire and Ice, but now there's Palace Jailer / Esper Sentinel / Staff of the Storyteller / etc.
It's symetrical, but so are alot of cards; Balance, Armageddon, Wrath of God. You just have to be aware of what it's shutting off in your own deck and play accordingly.
The difference between Spirit of the Labyrinth and those sweepers is that it's much easier to tailor your deck around the sweepers to be very asymmetrical. It's much harder to break the symmetry of Spirit of the Labyrinth.
If your the agressive deck it's likly hurting your opponent alot more.
This was much more true back when Spirit of the Labyrinth was printed, but there are so many card draw engines now regardless of color / archetype. Back in the day the aggro deck really only had Skullclamp / Sword of Fire and Ice, but now there's Palace Jailer / Esper Sentinel / Staff of the Storyteller / etc.
All true, its been a long time since I ran him so it could be a tinge of nostalgia. I opened my copy at first pre-release so its maybe a bit of a pet card.
Spirt's symetry is definitely alot harder to break than the cards I listed, a bit of exaggeration to make a point.
I still don't think I would be surprised to see it in a cube list; it's a 3 power 1W disruptive guy.
Is anyone still running the spirt, or would it look out of place in the average cube?
Spirit has been on my list of considerations lately, due to my own addition of the draw 7 combo. I can't disagree with the strikes against the card, but I understand the appeal and am interested in people providing me excuses to run it.
Is anyone still running the spirt, or would it look out of place in the average cube?
Can't say I've seen a lot of up to date cubes running it. Spirit was an easy include back in the day when there was no competition for Blade of the Sixth Pride variants / small creatures in general. Draw effects also weren't ubiquitous like they are today, blue still had a monopoly on it for the most part.
Spirit has been on my list of considerations lately, due to my own addition of the draw 7 combo. I can't disagree with the strikes against the card, but I understand the appeal and am interested in people providing me excuses to run it.
To me, Spirit of the Labyrinth is very similar to Collector Ouphe. Both are solid hate bears at a good cost and can really disrupt your opponent on certain matchups. However, both are symmetrical. It's a lot easier to break the symmetry of something like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben than it is this, especially since Thalia doesn't actually shut things down. Both Spirit and Ouphe are very specific answers to very specific problems, and I think there are generally better ways to solve said problems. In cubes that play them, Skullclamp / Palace Jailer / Forth Eorlings / etc, those are the best cards you can be playing in your white aggro deck. Betting against my own best cards within the same archetype seems extremely anti-pattern to me.
My mistake. I agree that Revoker is more fragile, but I'm more willing to accept its fragility because of how it impacts the game/board, and the versatility of being able to be played by any deck of any color.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Guess I should have added a little more to the discussion. I initially thought this guy was going to be very good but after thinking about it more I think it suffers from the same problem as Banefire where the hosing ability is quite good but what it's hosing is in too limited quantities in cube to be very useful. We could have really used this guy a few years ago :/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I also have been contemplating cutting steppe lynx, which has been brought up elsewhere in this forum as an underwhelming 1 drop. Eight-and-a-Half Tails is also up for cutting.
360 Uncommons only Cube!
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Visual Spoiler
Draft!
It doesn't seem like there's enough to make Spirit good, especially since many of these are instant speed.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
EDIT: Yeah, it doesn't affect CC and Remand particularly. Gave 'em a half mark each in my own count.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I played against it and both games it caused me to not be able to play my compulsive research and/or Thirst for knowledge while applying the beat down.
Seems like a borderline card at 450.
Calvin and Hobbes
Cube Tutor
360 Uncommons only Cube!
Incidentally, it makes arcane denial insane if you can cast it on your turn lol.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Might as well use Blade of the Sixth Pride or Daring Skyjek (not to mention Accorder Paladin) if all you want is a 3/1 for 1W.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I put Spirit over blade because I think that the ability to hose draw effects is worth the drawback of dying to enchantment removal. Spirit getting disenchanted means that your equipment or Anthem will be safe and targeted enchantment removal in cube costs at least as much as the Spirit herself. However, there are two similar creatures who don't depend on your opponent having specific cards and are generally better for beating down. And Skyjek doesn't make it into smaller cubes already, so I can't see Spirit being worth it for anything but a large list.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffThe issue with Spirit of the Labyrinth is that it's symmetrical. I'd rather just remove my opponent's engine and abuse my own (Skullclamp / Palace Jailer / Staff of the Storyteller / Esper Sentinel / etc).
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
I'm more concerned about the 1 toughness. I've been told you better have a VERY good reason to play something of 1 toughness that is 2+ CMC or higher.
It's symetrical, but so are alot of cards; Balance, Armageddon, Wrath of God. You just have to be aware of what it's shutting off in your own deck and play accordingly. If your the agressive deck it's likly hurting your opponent alot more.
1 toughness is weak, but it also means it can be clamped or killed pretty easily when you want it off board.
Not a staple but I wouldn't think it was weird if I seen it in a list.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffThe difference between Spirit of the Labyrinth and those sweepers is that it's much easier to tailor your deck around the sweepers to be very asymmetrical. It's much harder to break the symmetry of Spirit of the Labyrinth.
This was much more true back when Spirit of the Labyrinth was printed, but there are so many card draw engines now regardless of color / archetype. Back in the day the aggro deck really only had Skullclamp / Sword of Fire and Ice, but now there's Palace Jailer / Esper Sentinel / Staff of the Storyteller / etc.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
All true, its been a long time since I ran him so it could be a tinge of nostalgia. I opened my copy at first pre-release so its maybe a bit of a pet card.
Spirt's symetry is definitely alot harder to break than the cards I listed, a bit of exaggeration to make a point.
I still don't think I would be surprised to see it in a cube list; it's a 3 power 1W disruptive guy.
Is anyone still running the spirt, or would it look out of place in the average cube?
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
StaffCan't say I've seen a lot of up to date cubes running it. Spirit was an easy include back in the day when there was no competition for Blade of the Sixth Pride variants / small creatures in general. Draw effects also weren't ubiquitous like they are today, blue still had a monopoly on it for the most part.
To me, Spirit of the Labyrinth is very similar to Collector Ouphe. Both are solid hate bears at a good cost and can really disrupt your opponent on certain matchups. However, both are symmetrical. It's a lot easier to break the symmetry of something like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben than it is this, especially since Thalia doesn't actually shut things down. Both Spirit and Ouphe are very specific answers to very specific problems, and I think there are generally better ways to solve said problems. In cubes that play them, Skullclamp / Palace Jailer / Forth Eorlings / etc, those are the best cards you can be playing in your white aggro deck. Betting against my own best cards within the same archetype seems extremely anti-pattern to me.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra