A 3/1 for 1W that stops my opponent from drawing 1 card is pretty good I think. The question is more how often it can successfully do this.
Well, I guess I was envisioning a scenario where there is some incidental card draw happening that your opponent doesn't care that they miss. I mean, sure, if you drop this guy on t2 and a ponder, jace, bstorm whatever sits in your opponents hand, he's great. I think he's pretty strong if you follow up your opponents phyrexian arena with it even if he eats a removal spell immediately after (you still cost them a draw and a life so you get like a 2.2 for 1). But as you said, I just don't see it happening that often. I think at best this card stops your opponent from playing a draw spell of some kind for one turn while they answer it, which is maybe fine. I guess it's at its best against heavy U control which may have a hard time killing it once it's on the field, but any color with the U that makes sense in control is going to have no issues killing this thing.
Edit - Thinking about arena, they can actually even kill this guy with the arena trigger on the stack, or after it resolves, and still draw for their turn. So like, he's only good against arena if they have 0 removal in hand and don't draw one off the arena trigger. The more I think about this card the less impressed I am. It's not like blade of the sixth pride is making many waves, and this guy is just one of those with slightly worse creature types (although I dunno how big a cube would have to be to support rebels lol) too much of the time.
I think this is just wrong. A 3/1 for 2 that prevents a draw has done a lot more than most early drops late in the game. Not even close to "far and away the worst card in the deck." Some other cards that are way worse late in the game in those decks:
A 2/1 for BB that can't even block; A 0/1 that needs land drops to do anything for W; An enchantment that gets you lands and thins your deck for W; A 2/2 that deal you damage each turn after they stabilize; etc etc etc. All these cards are amazing, just not in every situation. And this guy's worst case is better than a lot of those.
After all that text, I will test this card, but likely cut it. Heh.
Except all those cards have something else making them amazing (I don't think land tax is a terribly appropriate comparison) - like that they are super undercosted,or they are recurable, etc. This guy is pretty on-par for cost, isn't recurrable, and is good against decks that Wx aggro is already good at. I guess I should have been more clear with the draw 1 example. What I mean is, this guy is sitting around, not able to block (cause you want the effect), not able to attack, and then he "gets" your opponent after a resolved csphinx where he only gets to draw 1 on your turn, which is almost completely irrelevant. That was what I meant when I said "he stops one draw." I see this guy in a lot of games stopping draws when you are so far behind it doesn't matter anymore.
I mean, yes, there are some games where he completely hoses UW control (which is the matchup I think this guy is best in), but does white aggro need that in cube? I don't think it does. I guess he's good in the UG edric tempo matchup, but he still can never attack or block.
Edit - Obviously this is all with no testing and just gut reaction. I do think hosers like this can be hard to evaluate because there's a lot of cards you might not think about and then you see this across the table and you look down at all your cantrips and just think "ugh....." So maybe he will be amazing, and I'll eat crow, but right now my gut is telling me he's not a small cubeable card. Maybe in powered which I have no real experience with.
Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
Every card in the deck is the worst card in the deck in some hypothetical scenario.
And in fact... a 3/1 for 2 that stops my opponent drawing a card? Hell yes.
I guess he's good in the UG edric tempo matchup, but he still can never attack or block.
Why not? Playing this creature doesn't make you bad at Magic.
It's not like blade of the sixth pride is making many waves, and this guy is just one of those
That's the worst case scenario, and Bot6P is a guy who saw a reasonable amount of cube play a few years ago, so it's not a terrible baseline. The ceiling against some decks is very high indeed, and the "price" you're paying is merely having "just" a 3/1 for 2 at times. You might need to play a Ponder early on occasion, or hold it back. He can be disenchanted sure but that's a 2 mana answer to a 2 mana card.
Thinking about arena, they can actually even kill this guy with the arena trigger on the stack, or after it resolves, and still draw for their turn. So like, he's only good against arena if they have 0 removal in hand and don't draw one off the arena trigger.
i.e. it dies to removal. All creature cards are only good against anything if they're not dead. This is an argument for why he/she/it is a very important target for removal if you have cards affected by it, and that's all - it's actually an endorsement of its effect on the game. So yeah, it's very good against Arena and co, because it just has to be removed. A two mana creature commanding that attention is excellent.
It's like saying Bob is only good at drawing cards if they have '0 removal in hand'
There are some good arguments as to why this card might not work a few pages back mooted by calibretto and wtwlf, but what you're saying in the last few posts is off the mark for a few reasons.
The potential issue with the card is that it harms the caster's deck if not sufficiently built around, and that it may not be quite good enough to be worth it. Its efficacy is NOT in debate here. We all know that it's obviously a huge impact against certain decks, and those decks WILL have to deal with it. The collateral damage is more the issue. Some groups won't like that.
Why not? Playing this creature doesn't make you bad at Magic.
He can't attack or block because, if you care about the hosing, he can't interact with any other creatures without dying. Someone who is good at magic would probably want to keep this guy alive against the edric deck.
i.e. it dies to removal. All creature cards are only good against anything if they're not dead. This is an argument for why he/she/it is a very important target for removal if you have cards affected by it, and that's all - it's actually an endorsement of its effect on the game. So yeah, it's very good against Arena and co, because it just has to be removed. A two mana creature commanding that attention is excellent.
It's like saying Bob is only good at drawing cards if they have '0 removal in hand'
Don't be deliberately asinine, obviously all creatures die to removal but what matters is the impact they have before they die. Bob draws you a card every turn for minimal life in a well-tuned deck. He always does that. He is never dead except as a late game top deck when you are at very low life. My arguments against this card have nothing to do with "it dies to removal," and everything to do with "the few times this card might legitimately hose people it's relatively easy to answer and a lot of the time it just doesn't do anything." Don't mix those two things up. No one is saying that Scornful Egotist is just as good as griselbrand because they both die to removal.
Further, bob is a card that always needs an answer and will usually take over the game if he's not. This is a card that doesn't really need an answer a lot of the time, and when it does need an answer, literally every removal spell in cube can kill it, as can combat with almost any creature.
There are some good arguments as to why this card might not work a few pages back mooted by calibretto and wtwlf, but what you're saying in the last few posts is off the mark for a few reasons.
The potential issue with the card is that it harms the caster's deck if not sufficiently built around, and that it may not be quite good enough to be worth it. Its efficacy is NOT in debate here. We all know that it's obviously a huge impact against certain decks, and those decks WILL have to deal with it. The collateral damage is more the issue. Some groups won't like that.
That is certainly a problem with the card, but it is not the only problem. There are lots of games/decks where this card doesn't hose you, doesn't hose your opponent, and is just a vanilla 3/1. I think that will be the scenario a large enough portion of the time to make this a mediocre cube card that can slot into 720's, but isn't going to make it into 450 or lower lists (again, it might be better in powered, I don't really play powered so IDK)
Also, you're treating cube like you can just add in whatever cards you want. You can't. Cube lists are a zero-sum game. When you put this card in, you have to take something else out. I'm sure there are games where this card would be great, and I think it's a fine card, but it's not good enough to warrant cutting a better white aggressive creature. I want to think about worst and average-case scenarios when evaluating a card, not just best-case. This is our white creatures lower than cmc 3 list.
Dryad Militant
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mother of Runes
Savannah Lions
Solider of the Pantheon
Steppe Lynx
Student of Warfare
Accorder Paladin
Imposing Sovereign
Knight of Meadowgrain
Kor Skyfisher
Leonin Relic-Warder
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Soltari Trooper
Stoneforge Mystic
Stormfront Pegasus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Wall of Omens
Blade Splicer
Flickerwisp
Mirran Crusader
Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Soltari Champion
I think everyone one of those either has a bigger impact on the game in Wx aggro or is important to another archetype in the cube (skyfisher in the blink deck, for example, or wall of omens in control decks)
The only creatures I think are close are meadowgrain, stormfront, and relic warder (because I think these creatures are on the bubble for being cut, not because I think they are directly comparable). I think relic warder is a much better hoser than this guy, especially since our cube now runs 2 gods and we have always run a very strong equipment package, not to mention how well warder can punish some ramp decks. I think the evasion on stormfront is much better than an extra power and the drawing hosing. Finally, I think meadowgrain is the closest to being cut, but it is so good in the aggro mirrors which is where the spirit is at its worse that I still think I'd rather have it than the spirit. And all of that is before we have to jam in another auto-include white 3-drop that is coming in this set.
If you have arguments for why you think it should be in over one of those other cards I'd be curious to hear them.
Imagine this in a tempo shell with Thassa and Accorder's Paladin or TNN or Oreo King. Some major unblockable early beats.
Except in this scenario what it's good for is its 3 power, not its hosing ability. Any 3-power beater is probably good in a tempo shell with thassa. In fact, it's worse than either TNN or accorder paladin in that example (and way worse than oreo king, but it costs 1 less mana, so that makes sense.) Also, a lot of those WU tempo decks have draw spells in them.
Like I said, maybe this card will be great, who knows, but the whole point of these new card threads is to say whether or not we think a card is good enough for cube. I don't think this one is for small unpowered lists. When it is not hosing your opponent, which I think will be a lot of the time, it is quite a mediocre card. I think our spirit friend has much bigger implications in legacy than cube.
I'm not being asinine, you were making flawed arguments. Your comment about removing it making it somehow ineffective against Phyrexian Arena, for example. We're now discussing what average impact on a game it might have and whether that makes it worth a slot, so good work getting the thread back on track I guess. And yes, there are cards in your list that I consider cuttable. We can carry that into your own thread rather than continuing to detail this one.
I'm not being asinine, you were making flawed arguments. Your comment about removing it making it somehow ineffective against Phyrexian Arena, for example. We're now discussing what average impact on a game it might have and whether that makes it worth a slot, so good work getting the thread back on track I guess. And yes, there are cards in your list that I consider cuttable. We can carry that into your own thread rather than continuing to detail this one.
Except you decided to take my statement, which was an example of how this card could be pretty bad even against a card it seems like it would be amazing against, and decide that it meant I was making a blanket argument that the card was bad because it died to removal, which you then decided was a flawed argument. Which, yes, saying a creature is bad because it dies to removal is a flawed argument, and not one I was making.
But bottom line - This card is a vanilla 3/1 enough of the time, and is sufficiently easy to answer when its ability is relevant, that it is not good enough warrant inclusion in small cubes. Maybe large and medium-large, where I still think it will be a SB, late-pick card. I feel like if you are MDing this in most drafts it means you didn't get the creature quality you wanted, you are playing some wonky cube with a hugely above-average number of draw effects, or you saw that the person you are about to play drafted jace, ponder, preordain, and brainstorm and have few scruples about pre-match sideboarding.
Cards I would be sympathetic to cutting for this, (not that I agree with them all.):
Steppe Lynx
Knight of Meadowgrain
Kor Skyfisher
Leonin Relic-Warder
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Reasons:
It doesn't cost WW, and it doesn't require any extra investment of any kind.
Also note that, aside from the 1 toughness, this thing goes away toward preventing your opponent from drawing answers to things. Digging through your deck for answers has always been a reliable way to deal with threats, and this card can potentially turn slight advantages into significant advantages.
Also note that, aside from the 1 toughness, this thing goes away toward preventing your opponent from drawing answers to things. Digging through your deck for answers has always been a reliable way to deal with threats, and this card can potentially turn slight advantages into significant advantages.
I don't really want to make this a thread about what our cube should cut, I was just using the list to demonstrate a point about the nature of cube and put a question into the post I shouldn't have.
Anyway, I agree that this hoses some ways decks dig for answers and threats (notably not FoF, impulse, jace, AoT or any card that reads "put...into your hand"). However, the problem is those decks that rely on that digging generally tend to be the controlling decks, where white aggro is already favored. I don't think a card that makes a favorable matchup slightly better warrants a slot.
I am surprised at how much focus UW Tempo is getting. Does everyone else play more UW Tempo than WR Aggro, BW Disruption, GW Midrange, or W/X Tokens combined? Why are we so narrowly focused on this one deck? Not every W card needs to go into UW Tempo...
This is the exact reason why I plan to actually test the card. UW tempo is very high on my list of favorite examples of possible aggressive white decks. This is why I'm personally putting so much emphasis on that specific deck. Though I feel like most aggressive white decks, even if they aren't blue, are very happy to pick up any kind of card draw. Wheel of Fortune, Dark Confidant, Blood Scrivener, Sylvan Library, Skullclamp, and Horizon Canopy (just to name a few off the top of my head) are all cards that I would want in my white aggro decks. Would I play this card alongside those cards? Maybe, depending on the rest of my deck and how many of these other spells I ended up with. It's an excellent hoser that I feel will be really good in specific matchups and I'm looking forward to testing it, but I'm keeping an open mind about it. I don't expect the card to blow me away and I'm putting it into the cube knowing that it might not make every single final 40 in white aggro decks. The bottom line is that this card is a perfect example of a card that warrants testing before deciding how good it is.
No, but if I have the choice of using a card that can go into all my white aggro decks and one that can't, I'm going to play the one that's more playable.
Well, it's not just the reason I list before, though. Like I say before, 3/1 for 1W is not really stellar stats anymore. So that leave blanking out draw. I rather run cards like Boiling Seas if I really want to hate out a certain color. It's much more effective and I think guarantee my win a lot more. The difference is of course that this card also hate out a certain colorless card and a few card draw in other color like Arena or Slyvan Library. But those cards are few, and even combine with the card draw in blue, it doesn't match hating out on the whole color, since cards like Boiling Seas are effective against the whole blue section.
I also think the body is really fragile (far more than Thalia's is) so the disruption won't be as good. Especially since Thalia's ability can actually prevent your opponent from playing the spells that remove her. I think at the end of the day, it'll be a 3/1 creature that has a small chance of effecting a couple of cards in your opponent's deck. And the only big impact she'll have is against decks you're already good against anyways.
It's a decent creature, but I wouldn't cut any of the commonly played white dudes for it. Especially not the ones that contribute to both aggro and other archetypes at the same time.
On the flipside I think it will be an autoinclude in the MTGO (Holiday) Cube. Cards like this Spirit are extremely necessary as a counterweight if you're going to include a bunch of broken interactions in your Cube. Its pretty much always 'the more the merrier' since some players will want to combat the insanity rather than partake in it.
If you feel that stuffing draw is more needed than lifelink/lifegain, artifact/enchantment hate, or bouncing a perm back to your hand then you're gonna want to test this.
I'm skipping out on this guy for now and see how he plays out for others. The only guys I would move for this are the Relic Warder or Lone Missionary and I value the artifact/enchantment hate and the ETB lifegain more right now. Also, as pointed out above, it gets in the way of too many cards that I would also want in my white aggro decks. I really do like the 3/1 body though and do prefer it over a 2/2.
This is kind of focusing on the least important part of my argument here.
I was just trying to give a niche example of how even in a blue/white tempo style deck this guy can be utilized. Obviously it would focus less on draw effects and more on aggro/unblockable/bounce.
Ok, but you didn't really show why it was better than any other generic beater, which it needs to be to make it in cube. That was the point I was making.
Obviously Spirit is worse than TNN or King Oreo. This doesn't compete with their slots either. Also your list missed Cloistered Youth (This is the swap I'm testing out. It should be close.) which many cubes still run. Unfortunately your list includes a lot of card slots at other mana costs that no one is arguing this should compete with.
I agree that Accorder Paladin (which this card is in competition with) is stronger as well. Spirit isn't exactly Oreo King which is coming soon to every regular cube near you, but it just might outclass an option or two that some people have presently.
Sorry, I was posting a list ofwhat we run in a 450 unpowered. We don't run youth, which is why it isn't on the list. I think youth is good, not great. I also think that youth is much better in most games than this guy is because it dodges some amount of red removal after it transforms, and can attack profitably into way more creatures than a 3/1 can.
Don't get me wrong, when this card does hose the opponent it's going to be real good, my concern is it doesn't do that a ton of the time and when it doesn't it's horrible in combat. 3/1 attacking into nothing is great, but as soon as they have a non-wall it gets real bad, which is rough in aggro.
I like Cloistered Youth more than the Spirit. The 2 toughness is more useful in more matchup than random card draw prevention. I just don't think this card do enough. It'll make some serious impact in Legacy. But Legacy is not cube. There are white card that hose a lot more (a whole color) and far more powerful than this card.
3/1 is a good statline on a two drop because it is a fast clock and trades up to as much as four mana. Have people forgotten how to play aggro? It 'gets rough' if they have an x/4. If these sort of creatures only last for one or two combats, that's fine. My Accorder Paladin often dies on the first swing!
Youth is better than this and should be in at 450.
The effect on this card is a lot better in constructed then in cube. In my opinion most of the time it will be a slightly better Blade of the sixth pride, which I don't really know if thats good enough. Thalia's body is much better with a more desired effect, as I've seen that comparison made. Toughness is really important, I would much rather have the 3/3 body of cloistered youth, despite the 1 life loss a turn, in most situations.
I think card drawing in Cube (and in general, really) is mainly the domain of blue. Other colors getting card draw is the rare exception, which makes this card pretty much a bullet against blue decks. In legacy you can count on most decks playing Brainstorm, and you can considerably slow down combo decks by taking their sorcery speed cantrips out of the equation as well. In Cube, only few decks will play blue spells. Against the rest of the field, this card will just be Blade of the Sixth Pride, which is not terrible of course.
My Cube design philosophy is to prioritize cards that consistently provide an advantage over cards that are match-up dependent. This can never be a strict line obviously, but the application to the spirit enchantment creature at hand is that I don't want to play it over something like Accorder Paladin or Daring Skyjek.
Now it's too fragile? Phyrexian Revoker is really good, this card isn't too fragile if the effect is good enough.
Phyrexian Revoker can A) go into any deck, and B) has assured value I can see.
When I play Revoker, it's turning off a super-powerful card that's already on the board having an impact in the game. You have no idea whether or not Spirit will have any impact on the game at all (well, most of the time ...there are occasions where it can impact cards on the board). And even when it does, it's not turning off a Sword or a Planeswalker your opponent has already spent mana on. It's also not matchup dependent.
Our impressions are that the impact is too marginal and too limited. It only has a significant impact against decks that are running lots of draw spells, and those are typically only going to be blue control decks. So the impact is hit or miss, provides inconsistent value even when it is relevant, and has the most value in matchups where I already have an advantage.
It's a good tool against draw-based combo, if your cube supports that. I'll be testing it out to see how good it really is, but my guess is that it's a hate-bear designed for constructed that won't have a huge impact in the cube. Due to the limited effect, the limited impact of the effect even when it's "on", and the fragility of the body.
Well, I guess I was envisioning a scenario where there is some incidental card draw happening that your opponent doesn't care that they miss. I mean, sure, if you drop this guy on t2 and a ponder, jace, bstorm whatever sits in your opponents hand, he's great. I think he's pretty strong if you follow up your opponents phyrexian arena with it even if he eats a removal spell immediately after (you still cost them a draw and a life so you get like a 2.2 for 1). But as you said, I just don't see it happening that often. I think at best this card stops your opponent from playing a draw spell of some kind for one turn while they answer it, which is maybe fine. I guess it's at its best against heavy U control which may have a hard time killing it once it's on the field, but any color with the U that makes sense in control is going to have no issues killing this thing.
Edit - Thinking about arena, they can actually even kill this guy with the arena trigger on the stack, or after it resolves, and still draw for their turn. So like, he's only good against arena if they have 0 removal in hand and don't draw one off the arena trigger. The more I think about this card the less impressed I am. It's not like blade of the sixth pride is making many waves, and this guy is just one of those with slightly worse creature types (although I dunno how big a cube would have to be to support rebels lol) too much of the time.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Except all those cards have something else making them amazing (I don't think land tax is a terribly appropriate comparison) - like that they are super undercosted,or they are recurable, etc. This guy is pretty on-par for cost, isn't recurrable, and is good against decks that Wx aggro is already good at. I guess I should have been more clear with the draw 1 example. What I mean is, this guy is sitting around, not able to block (cause you want the effect), not able to attack, and then he "gets" your opponent after a resolved csphinx where he only gets to draw 1 on your turn, which is almost completely irrelevant. That was what I meant when I said "he stops one draw." I see this guy in a lot of games stopping draws when you are so far behind it doesn't matter anymore.
I mean, yes, there are some games where he completely hoses UW control (which is the matchup I think this guy is best in), but does white aggro need that in cube? I don't think it does. I guess he's good in the UG edric tempo matchup, but he still can never attack or block.
Edit - Obviously this is all with no testing and just gut reaction. I do think hosers like this can be hard to evaluate because there's a lot of cards you might not think about and then you see this across the table and you look down at all your cantrips and just think "ugh....." So maybe he will be amazing, and I'll eat crow, but right now my gut is telling me he's not a small cubeable card. Maybe in powered which I have no real experience with.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
I was thinking, though, that he makes arcane denial amazing if you manage to counter a spell on your turn.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Every card in the deck is the worst card in the deck in some hypothetical scenario.
And in fact... a 3/1 for 2 that stops my opponent drawing a card? Hell yes.
Why not? Playing this creature doesn't make you bad at Magic.
That's the worst case scenario, and Bot6P is a guy who saw a reasonable amount of cube play a few years ago, so it's not a terrible baseline. The ceiling against some decks is very high indeed, and the "price" you're paying is merely having "just" a 3/1 for 2 at times. You might need to play a Ponder early on occasion, or hold it back. He can be disenchanted sure but that's a 2 mana answer to a 2 mana card.
i.e. it dies to removal. All creature cards are only good against anything if they're not dead. This is an argument for why he/she/it is a very important target for removal if you have cards affected by it, and that's all - it's actually an endorsement of its effect on the game. So yeah, it's very good against Arena and co, because it just has to be removed. A two mana creature commanding that attention is excellent.
It's like saying Bob is only good at drawing cards if they have '0 removal in hand'
There are some good arguments as to why this card might not work a few pages back mooted by calibretto and wtwlf, but what you're saying in the last few posts is off the mark for a few reasons.
The potential issue with the card is that it harms the caster's deck if not sufficiently built around, and that it may not be quite good enough to be worth it. Its efficacy is NOT in debate here. We all know that it's obviously a huge impact against certain decks, and those decks WILL have to deal with it. The collateral damage is more the issue. Some groups won't like that.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
He can't attack or block because, if you care about the hosing, he can't interact with any other creatures without dying. Someone who is good at magic would probably want to keep this guy alive against the edric deck.
Don't be deliberately asinine, obviously all creatures die to removal but what matters is the impact they have before they die. Bob draws you a card every turn for minimal life in a well-tuned deck. He always does that. He is never dead except as a late game top deck when you are at very low life. My arguments against this card have nothing to do with "it dies to removal," and everything to do with "the few times this card might legitimately hose people it's relatively easy to answer and a lot of the time it just doesn't do anything." Don't mix those two things up. No one is saying that Scornful Egotist is just as good as griselbrand because they both die to removal.
Further, bob is a card that always needs an answer and will usually take over the game if he's not. This is a card that doesn't really need an answer a lot of the time, and when it does need an answer, literally every removal spell in cube can kill it, as can combat with almost any creature.
That is certainly a problem with the card, but it is not the only problem. There are lots of games/decks where this card doesn't hose you, doesn't hose your opponent, and is just a vanilla 3/1. I think that will be the scenario a large enough portion of the time to make this a mediocre cube card that can slot into 720's, but isn't going to make it into 450 or lower lists (again, it might be better in powered, I don't really play powered so IDK)
Also, you're treating cube like you can just add in whatever cards you want. You can't. Cube lists are a zero-sum game. When you put this card in, you have to take something else out. I'm sure there are games where this card would be great, and I think it's a fine card, but it's not good enough to warrant cutting a better white aggressive creature. I want to think about worst and average-case scenarios when evaluating a card, not just best-case. This is our white creatures lower than cmc 3 list.
Dryad Militant
Elite Vanguard
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Mother of Runes
Savannah Lions
Solider of the Pantheon
Steppe Lynx
Student of Warfare
Accorder Paladin
Imposing Sovereign
Knight of Meadowgrain
Kor Skyfisher
Leonin Relic-Warder
Soltari Monk
Soltari Priest
Soltari Trooper
Stoneforge Mystic
Stormfront Pegasus
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Wall of Omens
Blade Splicer
Flickerwisp
Mirran Crusader
Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Soltari Champion
I think everyone one of those either has a bigger impact on the game in Wx aggro or is important to another archetype in the cube (skyfisher in the blink deck, for example, or wall of omens in control decks)
The only creatures I think are close are meadowgrain, stormfront, and relic warder (because I think these creatures are on the bubble for being cut, not because I think they are directly comparable). I think relic warder is a much better hoser than this guy, especially since our cube now runs 2 gods and we have always run a very strong equipment package, not to mention how well warder can punish some ramp decks. I think the evasion on stormfront is much better than an extra power and the drawing hosing. Finally, I think meadowgrain is the closest to being cut, but it is so good in the aggro mirrors which is where the spirit is at its worse that I still think I'd rather have it than the spirit. And all of that is before we have to jam in another auto-include white 3-drop that is coming in this set.
If you have arguments for why you think it should be in over one of those other cards I'd be curious to hear them.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
Except in this scenario what it's good for is its 3 power, not its hosing ability. Any 3-power beater is probably good in a tempo shell with thassa. In fact, it's worse than either TNN or accorder paladin in that example (and way worse than oreo king, but it costs 1 less mana, so that makes sense.) Also, a lot of those WU tempo decks have draw spells in them.
Like I said, maybe this card will be great, who knows, but the whole point of these new card threads is to say whether or not we think a card is good enough for cube. I don't think this one is for small unpowered lists. When it is not hosing your opponent, which I think will be a lot of the time, it is quite a mediocre card. I think our spirit friend has much bigger implications in legacy than cube.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Except you decided to take my statement, which was an example of how this card could be pretty bad even against a card it seems like it would be amazing against, and decide that it meant I was making a blanket argument that the card was bad because it died to removal, which you then decided was a flawed argument. Which, yes, saying a creature is bad because it dies to removal is a flawed argument, and not one I was making.
But bottom line - This card is a vanilla 3/1 enough of the time, and is sufficiently easy to answer when its ability is relevant, that it is not good enough warrant inclusion in small cubes. Maybe large and medium-large, where I still think it will be a SB, late-pick card. I feel like if you are MDing this in most drafts it means you didn't get the creature quality you wanted, you are playing some wonky cube with a hugely above-average number of draw effects, or you saw that the person you are about to play drafted jace, ponder, preordain, and brainstorm and have few scruples about pre-match sideboarding.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
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Mirror Entity
Silverblade Paladin
Reasons:
It doesn't cost WW, and it doesn't require any extra investment of any kind.
Also note that, aside from the 1 toughness, this thing goes away toward preventing your opponent from drawing answers to things. Digging through your deck for answers has always been a reliable way to deal with threats, and this card can potentially turn slight advantages into significant advantages.
I don't really want to make this a thread about what our cube should cut, I was just using the list to demonstrate a point about the nature of cube and put a question into the post I shouldn't have.
Anyway, I agree that this hoses some ways decks dig for answers and threats (notably not FoF, impulse, jace, AoT or any card that reads "put...into your hand"). However, the problem is those decks that rely on that digging generally tend to be the controlling decks, where white aggro is already favored. I don't think a card that makes a favorable matchup slightly better warrants a slot.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
This is the exact reason why I plan to actually test the card. UW tempo is very high on my list of favorite examples of possible aggressive white decks. This is why I'm personally putting so much emphasis on that specific deck. Though I feel like most aggressive white decks, even if they aren't blue, are very happy to pick up any kind of card draw. Wheel of Fortune, Dark Confidant, Blood Scrivener, Sylvan Library, Skullclamp, and Horizon Canopy (just to name a few off the top of my head) are all cards that I would want in my white aggro decks. Would I play this card alongside those cards? Maybe, depending on the rest of my deck and how many of these other spells I ended up with. It's an excellent hoser that I feel will be really good in specific matchups and I'm looking forward to testing it, but I'm keeping an open mind about it. I don't expect the card to blow me away and I'm putting it into the cube knowing that it might not make every single final 40 in white aggro decks. The bottom line is that this card is a perfect example of a card that warrants testing before deciding how good it is.
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No, but if I have the choice of using a card that can go into all my white aggro decks and one that can't, I'm going to play the one that's more playable.
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It's a decent creature, but I wouldn't cut any of the commonly played white dudes for it. Especially not the ones that contribute to both aggro and other archetypes at the same time.
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I'm skipping out on this guy for now and see how he plays out for others. The only guys I would move for this are the Relic Warder or Lone Missionary and I value the artifact/enchantment hate and the ETB lifegain more right now. Also, as pointed out above, it gets in the way of too many cards that I would also want in my white aggro decks. I really do like the 3/1 body though and do prefer it over a 2/2.
Ok, but you didn't really show why it was better than any other generic beater, which it needs to be to make it in cube. That was the point I was making.
Sorry, I was posting a list ofwhat we run in a 450 unpowered. We don't run youth, which is why it isn't on the list. I think youth is good, not great. I also think that youth is much better in most games than this guy is because it dodges some amount of red removal after it transforms, and can attack profitably into way more creatures than a 3/1 can.
Don't get me wrong, when this card does hose the opponent it's going to be real good, my concern is it doesn't do that a ton of the time and when it doesn't it's horrible in combat. 3/1 attacking into nothing is great, but as soon as they have a non-wall it gets real bad, which is rough in aggro.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
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Youth is better than this and should be in at 450.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
i wouldn't run at 450 though and most of you guys are in the <=450
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
I think card drawing in Cube (and in general, really) is mainly the domain of blue. Other colors getting card draw is the rare exception, which makes this card pretty much a bullet against blue decks. In legacy you can count on most decks playing Brainstorm, and you can considerably slow down combo decks by taking their sorcery speed cantrips out of the equation as well. In Cube, only few decks will play blue spells. Against the rest of the field, this card will just be Blade of the Sixth Pride, which is not terrible of course.
My Cube design philosophy is to prioritize cards that consistently provide an advantage over cards that are match-up dependent. This can never be a strict line obviously, but the application to the spirit enchantment creature at hand is that I don't want to play it over something like Accorder Paladin or Daring Skyjek.
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Phyrexian Revoker can A) go into any deck, and B) has assured value I can see.
When I play Revoker, it's turning off a super-powerful card that's already on the board having an impact in the game. You have no idea whether or not Spirit will have any impact on the game at all (well, most of the time ...there are occasions where it can impact cards on the board). And even when it does, it's not turning off a Sword or a Planeswalker your opponent has already spent mana on. It's also not matchup dependent.
Our impressions are that the impact is too marginal and too limited. It only has a significant impact against decks that are running lots of draw spells, and those are typically only going to be blue control decks. So the impact is hit or miss, provides inconsistent value even when it is relevant, and has the most value in matchups where I already have an advantage.
It's a good tool against draw-based combo, if your cube supports that. I'll be testing it out to see how good it really is, but my guess is that it's a hate-bear designed for constructed that won't have a huge impact in the cube. Due to the limited effect, the limited impact of the effect even when it's "on", and the fragility of the body.
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I was just implying it's less fragile than Phyrexian Revoker, that's it. PR is almost certainly a better card for cube.