I'm not surprised at the differing opinions here. I agree that I would like this more as a 2/1 first strike like Thalia. But this ability has a ton of upside - hardly a niche hose, as U and B decks of any ilk draw a ton of cards - and while it can be symmetrical, it needn't be as I build/play to accommodate it, also a bit like Thalia.
3/1 for 2 is a sort of 'very nearly-cubeable' body, and I much prefer the chances of this effect nullifying a bunch of cards in my opponent's deck than maybe getting flying (i.e. the Skyjek). I don't think Accorder Paladin is the cut, as I'm a big fan of that card too since its reinclusion.
There are matchups where this is 'just' a 3/1 for 2, but that's a good WCS statline and the upside against U/x or B/x midrange and control is silly for a two drop. That's not a narrow selection of decks.
My first reaction was initially positive before I cooled on this card with the same opinion as Konfusius, but I slept on it (I was up kind of late...) and actually I've warmed to it a great deal. I think it's going to be good. It's not just good in aggro, too. In midrange it neuters some of control's goodies, or trades with a 3-drop or 4-drop against aggro.
The list in the OP is helpful. I like the interactions and impact this has for a splashable two-drop.
I hope I didn't make it sound like the creature is terrible or anything, I just don't think I need the effect in the deck that would play the 3/1 1W creature as much as the other options (including a couple I don't currently have in). But that's not to say that the effect isn't good. It interferes with a ton of card draw in the cube, which can be big game against certain decks, and randomly hose other cards here and there. I will be testing it out, but my guess is that it'll just miss my 450 list because of how it performs in the matchups where I need it to be good. It's a great anti-control card, but my aggro decks are usually very good in those matchups anyways, and I don't play that many midrange decks that want the 3/1 2-drop.
Of that list of cards that it hoses, I'm only running about 3/4 of them at the moment and several of those cards only come up from time to time due to the size of my cube and our normal draft environment (eg multicolor cards). I may slot this guy in to test in the current spot that Icatian Javelineers is holding, but against non blue decks, I feel the ability will rarely be relevant and he'll mostly just be a vanilla 3/1 duder.
I'll also note that saying it gives Vendillion Clique some extra value is slightly misplaced. It does give the Clique some more value, but I don't think I'd want to run the two together in the same deck very often. Those decks tend to be UW aggro/tempo and they also want to run the cheap blue card draw spells.
@wtwlf and calibretto: That's a series of good points. I think if you see a variety of U/x or B/x midrange or ramp decks, this could shine very well. Otherwise it only reinforces a matchup which is already beneficial. I live for this sort of card in spoiler season rather than a Soldier of the Pantheon or Brimaz. As great as the obvious staples are, they are not conducive to more interesting in-depth discussions like these. It's all about the crazy cards and fringe cards!
There are definitely times where Thalia misses the cut in a deck she'd otherwise be stellar in because she interferes too heavily with noncreature spells that are critical to my own gameplan. I picture that being the case with this Spirit creature in my UW tempo decks more often than not. If I wind up excluding multiple draw-related spells from my deck in order to run her, I wonder if she's actually hurting more than helping. I'd rather run a WU tempo deck with Ponder/Preordain/etc and a random white 2-drop than exclude those draw spells and play her.
However, like Thalia, Spirit will be hard to evaluate because you won't always see the impact she has against the opponent. It may look like she's done nothing, and at the end of the game you opponent may reveal a Brainstorm and a Phyrexian Arena from their hands and give you the ol' :(. She can have a tremendous impact, but she can also blank and interfere with a potentially more ideal final 40 because of how impactful she is. Only testing will tell.
I'm not sure I would exclude a Ponder or Preordain because I'm running Spirit. The chances of having both available at once are low, and even then I can play the filter first, or see to it that the 3/1 trades in combat to re-enable it.
Something persistent like an Arena may give me pause for thought during deck-building, though.
I'm not sure I would exclude a Ponder or Preordain because I'm running Spirit. The chances of having both available at once are low, and even then I can play the filter first, or see to it that the 3/1 trades in combat to re-enable it.
Something persistent like an Arena may give me pause for thought during deck-building, though.
Sorry, I should've clarified that I was talking about both. Like, excluding multiple draw spells in order to play her. Ancestral Recall included, of course. Hell, I'd exclude her if Recall was my only blue card in the deck.
I think this does help with a bad matchup, combo, if your cube supports that. Wrecking the draw 7s and the cantrips can just win you a lot of games.
I think hosing a large swath of very important cards in the cube and being attached to a very reasonable body is going to merit inclusion. Maybe not in small, unpowered cubes, but I'd want this in any powered cube that supports white aggressive decks, and in a lot of unpowered cubes as well.
Sorry, I should've clarified that I was talking about both. Like, excluding multiple draw spells in order to play her. Ancestral Recall included, of course. Hell, I'd exclude her if Recall was my only blue card in the deck.
I probably would not, as if your turn two 3/1 is alive long enough for that to matter, you are likely winning.
This guy is obviously made for constructed, but the number of cards with which he interferes is pretty high, especially vs. blue decks. For those that use sideboards this card seems sweet, but for me I'm going to have to test it a bit and see how much the ability matters (because there are random things it hoses for yourself in white aggro builds, like SoFI, Arena, etc.)
In my personal opinion, the biggest problem facing cubes today is inadequate disruption, and this card helps. Even though it's fragile, it provides redundancy for aggro and disrupts something that can't really be dealt with efficiently in any other way.
I'm on the fence about this but leaning towards no. It doesn't really help the matchups that white aggro needs help with. Some creature heavy midrange decks might like it, but I'm not sure that justifies this a spot. I could be wrong and it could be great. I'm just skeptical.
If you are running accorder paladin still, i think the disruptive gain is a lot better than the battlecry. since I'm running Paladin, I'll test this guy out too.
I think the Battle Cry is far more relevant (at least it will be for me). It represents a faster clock, benefits the token/anthem archetype, and allows my smaller creatures to attack into midrange's blockers more profitably, which is far more important for my aggressive decks. Plus, Accorder Paladin can't be disenchanted.
I like this guy alot, think Accorder Paladin might be getting bumped. Library of Alexandria kinda gets around this by being able to draw on opponent's turn which is slightly annoying.
Also being able to Enlightened Tutor for a creature is very relevant in my book.
The enlightened tutor trick is nice, but there's no way this is better than accorder paladin, which often ends up being 5 or 6 power for 2 mana. Accorder paladin is always good in Wx aggro, this is always fine and occasionally very good, which is not what I am looking for in a deck like aggro that rises or falls on its consistency.
At first glance I think she's a powerful card, but can definitely see why some people don't like it. Drawing cards is the most powerful effect in Magic, so anything that can disrupt that seems strong to me.
Some people have mentioned how it doesn't allow them to play cards like Ancestral Recall, but neither can your opponent, and I don't think that should be so easily over looked. If you can find a deck for it, than I think it's an easy include (at least for my 450 unpowered list), but if not, than I would pass on it unless you don't mind having a good sideboard card floating around.
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My white aggro decks and my WX token decks will get more out of Accorder Paladin than Spirit of the Labyrinth in an average game. I can't imagine cutting Paladin for this.
My white aggro decks and my WX token decks will get more out of Accorder Paladin than Spirit of the Labyrinth in an average game. I can't imagine cutting Paladin for this.
It's definitely a similar design to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, and honestly I think this is where Spirit might get tripped up. Those that support UW tempo now have two creatures that will often miss the cut in Thalia and Spirit, and I don't feel comfortable having two of the white 2-drop creatures (one of the most essential slots) being doubtful maindeck choices. Thalia is usually going to be the better card of the two, since she does actual work against non-blue decks and makes it much harder for control to cast the actual kill spells that will help them stabilize.
I would probably cube Spirit in three situations:
1. A powered cube, particularly a blue-dominant one or that supports heavy combo. White needs good hatebears to survive in an environment where other colors are able to do more broken stuff and a higher proportion of draw effects exist in all colors.
2. A 540+ cube, where benefit of being a straight 3/1 for 2 starts to manifest itself and the competition with Thalia becomes less of a problem.
3. A cube where UW tempo is not supported, needs to be powered down, or is usually passed over in favor of other White Weenie archetypes.
Still, going into four aggro decks - W/G, W/R, W/B and mono-W - and some midrange ones is OK, no? And besides, I wouldn't actually be deterred from running it in W/u tempo unless there are a lot of spells that it hoses in my deck. In my 24 non-land cards, maybe 6-12 of those might be blue, including a lot of creatures and tempo counters. Maybe 2-3 spells tops that are affected. And if I see one in my hand with the Spirit, I can play around it by playing it first. I don't think including it somehow obviates UW tempo as an archetype or even weakens it significantly. It's at worst something to think about when deck-building in the same way you keep an eye on life-loss cards in black, or expensive spells in a deck with Bob.
Still, going into four aggro decks - W/G, W/R, W/B and mono-W - and some midrange ones is OK, no? And besides, I wouldn't actually be deterred from running it in W/u tempo unless there are a lot of spells that it hoses in my deck. In my 24 non-land cards, maybe 6-12 of those might be blue, including a lot of creatures and tempo counters. Maybe 2-3 spells tops that are affected. And if I see one in my hand with the Spirit, I can play around it by playing it first. I don't think including it somehow obviates UW tempo as an archetype or even weakens it significantly. It's at worst something to think about when deck-building in the same way you keep an eye on life-loss cards in black, or expensive spells in a deck with Bob.
Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
I am surprised at how much focus UW Tempo is getting. Does everyone else play more UW Tempo than WR Aggro, BW Disruption, GW Midrange, or W/X Tokens combined? Why are we so narrowly focused on this one deck? Not every W card needs to go into UW Tempo...
At least around here WR Aggro and GW Midrange are definitely more common than WU Tempo (despite my best efforts). Both of those deck like this card a lot. And maybe I am just bad at drafting WU Tempo, but a 3/1 for 2 is not generally what my Tempo decks want anyway. They much rather a 3/4 Flier for 3...
As for the card itself, I feel it is not the Bee's Knees, sure, but it is very interesting. My guess is that a lot of people will test it, some will love it, some will hate it. I'd guess that even those that dislike it will hate it less than the anti-Blood Scrivener folks. It has some really sweet interactions (like turning Wheel of Fortune into Mind Twist for Boros Aggro) and some huge weakness (*cough* Arc Lightning *cough*). For a cube card it is rather fair, but seems solid enough.
Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
I think this is just wrong. A 3/1 for 2 that prevents a draw has done a lot more than most early drops late in the game. Not even close to "far and away the worst card in the deck." Some other cards that are way worse late in the game in those decks:
A 2/1 for BB that can't even block; A 0/1 that needs land drops to do anything for W; An enchantment that gets you lands and thins your deck for W; A 2/2 that deal you damage each turn after they stabilize; etc etc etc. All these cards are amazing, just not in every situation. And this guy's worst case is better than a lot of those.
After all that text, I will test this card, but likely cut it. Heh.
3/1 for 2 is a sort of 'very nearly-cubeable' body, and I much prefer the chances of this effect nullifying a bunch of cards in my opponent's deck than maybe getting flying (i.e. the Skyjek). I don't think Accorder Paladin is the cut, as I'm a big fan of that card too since its reinclusion.
There are matchups where this is 'just' a 3/1 for 2, but that's a good WCS statline and the upside against U/x or B/x midrange and control is silly for a two drop. That's not a narrow selection of decks.
My first reaction was initially positive before I cooled on this card with the same opinion as Konfusius, but I slept on it (I was up kind of late...) and actually I've warmed to it a great deal. I think it's going to be good. It's not just good in aggro, too. In midrange it neuters some of control's goodies, or trades with a 3-drop or 4-drop against aggro.
The list in the OP is helpful. I like the interactions and impact this has for a splashable two-drop.
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I'll also note that saying it gives Vendillion Clique some extra value is slightly misplaced. It does give the Clique some more value, but I don't think I'd want to run the two together in the same deck very often. Those decks tend to be UW aggro/tempo and they also want to run the cheap blue card draw spells.
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However, like Thalia, Spirit will be hard to evaluate because you won't always see the impact she has against the opponent. It may look like she's done nothing, and at the end of the game you opponent may reveal a Brainstorm and a Phyrexian Arena from their hands and give you the ol' :(. She can have a tremendous impact, but she can also blank and interfere with a potentially more ideal final 40 because of how impactful she is. Only testing will tell.
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Something persistent like an Arena may give me pause for thought during deck-building, though.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Sorry, I should've clarified that I was talking about both. Like, excluding multiple draw spells in order to play her. Ancestral Recall included, of course. Hell, I'd exclude her if Recall was my only blue card in the deck.
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I think hosing a large swath of very important cards in the cube and being attached to a very reasonable body is going to merit inclusion. Maybe not in small, unpowered cubes, but I'd want this in any powered cube that supports white aggressive decks, and in a lot of unpowered cubes as well.
I probably would not, as if your turn two 3/1 is alive long enough for that to matter, you are likely winning.
This guy is obviously made for constructed, but the number of cards with which he interferes is pretty high, especially vs. blue decks. For those that use sideboards this card seems sweet, but for me I'm going to have to test it a bit and see how much the ability matters (because there are random things it hoses for yourself in white aggro builds, like SoFI, Arena, etc.)
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Argh. Even more cards I love to run in aggro that she shuts off.
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The enlightened tutor trick is nice, but there's no way this is better than accorder paladin, which often ends up being 5 or 6 power for 2 mana. Accorder paladin is always good in Wx aggro, this is always fine and occasionally very good, which is not what I am looking for in a deck like aggro that rises or falls on its consistency.
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Some people have mentioned how it doesn't allow them to play cards like Ancestral Recall, but neither can your opponent, and I don't think that should be so easily over looked. If you can find a deck for it, than I think it's an easy include (at least for my 450 unpowered list), but if not, than I would pass on it unless you don't mind having a good sideboard card floating around.
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I completely agree.
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On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I would probably cube Spirit in three situations:
1. A powered cube, particularly a blue-dominant one or that supports heavy combo. White needs good hatebears to survive in an environment where other colors are able to do more broken stuff and a higher proportion of draw effects exist in all colors.
2. A 540+ cube, where benefit of being a straight 3/1 for 2 starts to manifest itself and the competition with Thalia becomes less of a problem.
3. A cube where UW tempo is not supported, needs to be powered down, or is usually passed over in favor of other White Weenie archetypes.
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Well sure, it goes in those decks but when it's dead or only stops, say, 1 draw from your opponent it's far and away the worst card in the deck.
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A 3/1 for 1W that stops my opponent from drawing 1 card is pretty good I think. The question is more how often it can successfully do this.
At least around here WR Aggro and GW Midrange are definitely more common than WU Tempo (despite my best efforts). Both of those deck like this card a lot. And maybe I am just bad at drafting WU Tempo, but a 3/1 for 2 is not generally what my Tempo decks want anyway. They much rather a 3/4 Flier for 3...
As for the card itself, I feel it is not the Bee's Knees, sure, but it is very interesting. My guess is that a lot of people will test it, some will love it, some will hate it. I'd guess that even those that dislike it will hate it less than the anti-Blood Scrivener folks. It has some really sweet interactions (like turning Wheel of Fortune into Mind Twist for Boros Aggro) and some huge weakness (*cough* Arc Lightning *cough*). For a cube card it is rather fair, but seems solid enough.
I think this is just wrong. A 3/1 for 2 that prevents a draw has done a lot more than most early drops late in the game. Not even close to "far and away the worst card in the deck." Some other cards that are way worse late in the game in those decks:
A 2/1 for BB that can't even block; A 0/1 that needs land drops to do anything for W; An enchantment that gets you lands and thins your deck for W; A 2/2 that deal you damage each turn after they stabilize; etc etc etc. All these cards are amazing, just not in every situation. And this guy's worst case is better than a lot of those.
After all that text, I will test this card, but likely cut it. Heh.