I play the ones that are good enough and exclude the ones that aren't, just like every other card type. There's not much point just comparing Elspeth 3.0 to Ajani, Caller of the Pride, because the only thing they have in common is a card type. I mean, I wouldn't evaluate Omniscience for cube by considering how it rates compared to Equilbrium or Standstill because they are enchantments. In a vacuum the new PW is worse than the other PWs you mentioned, but that doesn't really influence whether I play her or not. I don't see a requirement to cap the PW numbers.
I think I would test this at 450. Sun Titan, Elesh Norn and this seems like a cool finisher suite.
I am not saying my 2 PW cap is for everyone ,but my group is ok with something drafting superrfriends.dec, but not ok with there being multiple in a draft. I think I could easily fit 4+ in each color on power level alone. It is funny that I disagree on he on the Omni point. I feel like Omniscience does compete with other blue "unique effect, archetype/dec enabling" blue enchantments like equilibrium, opposition etc. But yes Standstill is way different.
For those not concerned about PW count, I see this slotting in over Sunt Titan, or other finishers, or replacing any >4 CMC sweepers people might be running.
It is funny that I disagree on he on the Omni point. I feel like Omniscience does compete with other blue "unique effect, archetype/dec enabling" blue enchantments like equilibrium, opposition etc. But yes Standstill is way different.
Exactly. You are then comparing them because they are niche archetype support. Not because they share a card type. PWs are no different; sure I'll compare two PWs who share a similar role, but also I'll compare the creatures and sorceries from that archetype too.
The more I think about elpseth the better and better she seems.
I've changed my stance from very good to insane.
I suspect she's going to influence the game state 90 percent as much as the titans and is harder to interact with.
A huge plus is that a lot of the cards that interact with planeswalkers are white..
Which you can value/hate draft.
How many PWs do people play per color. I play two and might go to 3 at 450, but I feel that is distorting enough. This card does a lot of nice things but at 6+ in white is tough on its own. It can be cheated or reanimated. I think it is a miss for me. Probably 4th or 5th best white PW to me behind Knight Errant, Caller of the Pride, Goldmane at least.
I play the ones that are good enough and exclude the ones that aren't, just like every other card type. There's not much point just comparing Elspeth 3.0 to Ajani, Caller of the Pride, because the only thing they have in common is a card type. I mean, I wouldn't evaluate Omniscience for cube by considering how it rates compared to Equilbrium or Standstill because they are enchantments. In a vacuum the new PW is worse than the other PWs you mentioned, but that doesn't really influence whether I play her or not. I don't see a requirement to cap the PW numbers.
I think I would test this at 450. Sun Titan, Elesh Norn and this seems like a cool finisher suite.
I respectfully disagree because like dschumm, I cap my PWer numbers. I run into this hard cap the most with white and blue, which have the highest # of playable planeswalkers. Tossing another "good" card into the mix is actually something I'd have a discussion on.
Anywho, I agree with dschumm on her ranking. I'd love to see how she stacks up compared to Ajani 3 and Ajani 1. Pro's and Con's situation. Ajani 3 is definitely an aggro card. Ajani 1 can go many directions (curve-topper, midrange, tokens, control perhaps). Elspeth 3 looks like late mid-range to control. If I drafted white weenie I probably wouldn't play Elspeth 3 for curve-reasons.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I think it's interesting that they finally printed a planeswalker with only two abilities.
Koth would lile a word with you.
At first, I was lukewarm on Elspeth but I am warming up to her - she seems to defend herself incredibly well aside from a few. She seems to offer an ultimatum of "deal with me or this could get out of hand." Very excited to try her out.
I think it's interesting that they finally printed a planeswalker with only two abilities.
You're underrating the second ability. There will definitely be boards where that's super relevant.
I have mixed feelings about this Elspeth. I like having the creatures be CMC 6+ since reanimation strategies/cheat strategies like to use/abuse them, and while pooping out tokens and eliminating parts of boards with a pretty insane ultimate seems strong, is it enough for 4WW? Will probably try it if I get one in the prerelease or any of the ensuing drafts, but it's not a card I'd be willing to go out of my way to try without hearing how other people have liked it first.
Not close to good enough for small to medium cubes IMO. 6 mana is a ton, if you wrath her the turn she comes down there's a pretty good chance she just dies. However, if you are facing a ground army, chances are she is going to do more than protect herself every turn and will end up taking over the game.
I like this card so far.
It looks really good when curving out with Cloudgoat Ranger and other of white's plethora of dork mainstays. It seems good in a varity of boardstates and I like what it might be saying about the direction of white value and white cards they'll be pushing.
At first, I was lukewarm on Elspeth but I am warming up to her - she seems to defend herself incredibly well aside from a few. She seems to offer an ultimatum of "deal with me or this could get out of hand." Very excited to try her out.
I use the mana ability on Koth quite a bit, actually.
She's a great 'Walker once she resolves, but I'm wondering if another 6-mana card is really what any of my white decks are looking for. I like her more than Elspeth Tirel, but I don't think she'll be breaking into my 450. But who knows? I plan on testing her to find out.
I could see running her. I actually like Elspeth Tirel quite a bit, and am not convinced biggest Elspeth will be better. But she might be. 6 mana is a lot more than 5, and Tirel has done a fine job stabilizing the board for us. Sun's Champion seems very difficult to kill, but I feel she will often be coming down too late, or just be held in favor of other 6 drops.
If I open one I will certainly test her, and I could be convinced, but I do not think she is clearly better than Tirel, who is alright - not the greatest.
Running a finisher that is not also a creature might be considered too narrow, but if not, it's likely one of the better 6 mana investments you can make. I like the card, but I want my 6+ mana stuff to be cheatable or reanimatable as well as rampable or hardcastable, and this isn't.
comes down and can blow up most other decks 4-6cc plays. Some maybe not. Doesn't kill any cuter plays like venser. But boy does this ever rule late game boards.
This is a much stronger card than I anticipated. 6 mana is a lot, but 3 threats per turn is a lot. And in decks that are cranking out lots of token-sized threats, the wrath can be very lopsided in your favor. Definitely a good 'walker for sure, and if she continues to play as she's been testing, she'll be making it into my 450 list.
Not close to good enough for small to medium cubes IMO. 6 mana is a ton, if you wrath her the turn she comes down there's a pretty good chance she just dies. However, if you are facing a ground army, chances are she is going to do more than protect herself every turn and will end up taking over the game.
Just not quite good enough for 6 mana though IMO.
The more I look at her the more I think she has a chance actually. I still think 6 mana is alot, however if you stick her she is pretty much never going to die to ground attackers. Both of her abilities protect herself, and even just +ing her every turn she gets out of hand fairly quickly.
I'm still not sold, but I think she's testworthy in 450 and above. She is very, very hard to deal with without several low-power fliers.
This is a much stronger card than I anticipated. 6 mana is a lot, but 3 threats per turn is a lot. And in decks that are cranking out lots of token-sized threats, the wrath can be very lopsided in your favor. Definitely a good 'walker for sure, and if she continues to play as she's been testing, she'll be making it into my 450 list.
I originally thought her second ability said converted mana cost 4 or greater and thought it was absolutely phenomenal. I did finally realize is said power 4 or greater though and reevaluated it as less impressive. How has her second ability shown up in your testing?
I ask this same question of any who have tested her.
I think it's much better at 4 power. You have more control over the suite of creatures you use, and she doesn't destroy all of your ETB dudes, token generating guys and other cool critters you have out. But she does wipe out your opponent's more expensive investments, and kills creatures that have Swords and stuff strapped to 'em.
I think Elspeth outclasses Sun Titan pretty hard. For us, Sun Titan's floor is the lowest of the titans and doesn't exactly have a high ceiling. Luckily I run a large cube so I can fit both and will be replacing Elspeth Tirel with Sun's Champion.
I am not saying my 2 PW cap is for everyone ,but my group is ok with something drafting superrfriends.dec, but not ok with there being multiple in a draft. I think I could easily fit 4+ in each color on power level alone. It is funny that I disagree on he on the Omni point. I feel like Omniscience does compete with other blue "unique effect, archetype/dec enabling" blue enchantments like equilibrium, opposition etc. But yes Standstill is way different.
For those not concerned about PW count, I see this slotting in over Sunt Titan, or other finishers, or replacing any >4 CMC sweepers people might be running.
Exactly. You are then comparing them because they are niche archetype support. Not because they share a card type. PWs are no different; sure I'll compare two PWs who share a similar role, but also I'll compare the creatures and sorceries from that archetype too.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
I've changed my stance from very good to insane.
I suspect she's going to influence the game state 90 percent as much as the titans and is harder to interact with.
A huge plus is that a lot of the cards that interact with planeswalkers are white..
Which you can value/hate draft.
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I respectfully disagree because like dschumm, I cap my PWer numbers. I run into this hard cap the most with white and blue, which have the highest # of playable planeswalkers. Tossing another "good" card into the mix is actually something I'd have a discussion on.
Anywho, I agree with dschumm on her ranking. I'd love to see how she stacks up compared to Ajani 3 and Ajani 1. Pro's and Con's situation. Ajani 3 is definitely an aggro card. Ajani 1 can go many directions (curve-topper, midrange, tokens, control perhaps). Elspeth 3 looks like late mid-range to control. If I drafted white weenie I probably wouldn't play Elspeth 3 for curve-reasons.
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Koth would lile a word with you.
At first, I was lukewarm on Elspeth but I am warming up to her - she seems to defend herself incredibly well aside from a few. She seems to offer an ultimatum of "deal with me or this could get out of hand." Very excited to try her out.
I used to write cube articles on StarCityGames, now for GatheringMagic and podcast about cube (w/Antknee42.)
You're underrating the second ability. There will definitely be boards where that's super relevant.
I have mixed feelings about this Elspeth. I like having the creatures be CMC 6+ since reanimation strategies/cheat strategies like to use/abuse them, and while pooping out tokens and eliminating parts of boards with a pretty insane ultimate seems strong, is it enough for 4WW? Will probably try it if I get one in the prerelease or any of the ensuing drafts, but it's not a card I'd be willing to go out of my way to try without hearing how other people have liked it first.
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Just not quite good enough for 6 mana though IMO.
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It looks really good when curving out with Cloudgoat Ranger and other of white's plethora of dork mainstays. It seems good in a varity of boardstates and I like what it might be saying about the direction of white value and white cards they'll be pushing.
Resto also survives.
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I use the mana ability on Koth quite a bit, actually.
She's a great 'Walker once she resolves, but I'm wondering if another 6-mana card is really what any of my white decks are looking for. I like her more than Elspeth Tirel, but I don't think she'll be breaking into my 450. But who knows? I plan on testing her to find out.
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Elspeth tirels +1 is also a lot less relevant then elspeth SunnyD's -3 ability.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=484979
If I open one I will certainly test her, and I could be convinced, but I do not think she is clearly better than Tirel, who is alright - not the greatest.
On spoiled card wishlisting and 'should-have-had'-isms:
Also, Liliana of the Dark Realms wins the trophy for 2-ability PW for sure.
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The more I look at her the more I think she has a chance actually. I still think 6 mana is alot, however if you stick her she is pretty much never going to die to ground attackers. Both of her abilities protect herself, and even just +ing her every turn she gets out of hand fairly quickly.
I'm still not sold, but I think she's testworthy in 450 and above. She is very, very hard to deal with without several low-power fliers.
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I originally thought her second ability said converted mana cost 4 or greater and thought it was absolutely phenomenal. I did finally realize is said power 4 or greater though and reevaluated it as less impressive. How has her second ability shown up in your testing?
I ask this same question of any who have tested her.
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Now if only you could equip your opponent's creatures! THINK OF ALL THE COMBOS. =P
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