Thragtusk is the epitome of versatile, it's the perfect bridge card for green monster decks, the kind of card you might search out with Natural Order or the kind of card you sacrifice to it. Makes for a super-easy splash in any deck, from Recurring Nightmare to tap-out control. Makes for a solid top end in G/x aggro. Makes for a perfect counter to fast decks.
Deranged Hermit hasn't exactly dipped in cube-ability over the years. Blink effects gave it new life. Like Thragtusk it's great at stabilizing your board while being a threat as well. Green's perfect follow up to getting Wrathed.
Acidic Slime, though I don't value artifact/enchantment removal very highly, has a lot going for it, enough for its rank IMO. You're pretty much never remiss for a target. I believe specific land destruction to have no place in cube, but cards like Acidic Slime get a pass for being so versatile, dealing with non-creature permanents and creatures simultaneously.
Wolfir Silverheart is powerful, and usually hard to deal with if you don't have hard removal. It's kind of a generic fatty, which is why I have it lower than the others, but gifting a 4 point bonus to a creature already in play isn't anything to scoff at. Sometimes 12 points of power will put you further ahead than anything else you could be doing with 5 mana.
Indrik Stomphowler is a card that usually doesn't make my main decks but I will happily board it in when I see a decent target for its ability. With 5 drops being so dense in green, it's hard to give this one the green light for game 1 scenarios. But I've won my share of games when his effect was exactly what I needed. His 1 green symbol is a huge plus.
I like Vorapede, but I don't think he goes in enough decks. Green loves him as a creature that plays great offense and great defense at the same time, but really if he's not in a green deck, he can't be played. The others on this list can be splashed, can go into many archetypes, and have slightly more utility.
Genesis has had his day. I wouldn't mind still seeing him in cube. Control can be a big thorn in green's side, and having a continuous stream of creatures post-wrath is indeed a powerful effect. I think it's a mistake to put him in the 5 drop slot, if you put him in the 3 slot suddenly the competition changes. Personally, I can see how paying 3 for a raise dead isn't good enough anymore, but I love to durdle so Genesis is right up my alley.
I think Thornling deserves some discussion here too. Like many of green's 5 drops it's very apt at closing out games, but there isn't anything on this list that offers as much blatant resilience to removal. I'd put it 4th on my rankings.
Thornling, like morphling, is never that good as a 5 drop but is pretty good as a 6 drop. Then you compare it to the other six drops you can get a hold of and it doesn't look as good. It is still a fun card and I wouldn't discredit anyone who wanted to run it but I don't think it holds up to the other fatties available.
I like Vorapede, but I don't think he goes in enough decks. Green loves him as a creature that plays great offense and great defense at the same time, but really if he's not in a green deck, he can't be played. The others on this list can be splashed, can go into many archetypes, and have slightly more utility.
This is true, and definitely a big drawback on the pede that I forgot to mention. GGG is so much harder than GG.
Edit - That I forgot to mention in the vorapede thread. Was getting my threads confused.
Thornling, like morphling, is never that good as a 5 drop but is pretty good as a 6 drop. Then you compare it to the other six drops you can get a hold of and it doesn't look as good. It is still a fun card and I wouldn't discredit anyone who wanted to run it but I don't think it holds up to the other fatties available.
Agree with this 100%. We ran Thornling in our 540 and it was one of the first cuts to 450. It's a fine card, but really nothing spectacular. It doesn't do enough in any arena that you want a green fatty to do. It blocks okay, it attacks okay, it survives okay (gotta keep up mana for all this junk though, and even when you do it's just meh).
I really like Thornling too, but it wasn't on the list so I didn't talk about it. It is another game-winner that can be hard to deal with, and has the ability to push through blockers. It is also resilient to sweepers, which is something the others are not.
First, I disagree that a vanilla 4/4 is more relevant than a 2/2 deathtouch. I can get a better body on almost any other green creature in this CMC range, but the deathtouch is always relevant. With regard to splashability, if I wanted splashable ench/art destruction I'd just ask for Reclamation Sage or Wickerbough Elder for their cheaper cost. For 5 mana I don't want to play a card that at times will just be a 4/4. The fact that slime always has a target is huge... and that target is a land of all things. This is without mentioning how broken the slime can be when you get a recursion engine going. I don't think they're close.
Wickerbough Elder is not more splashable than the Stomphowler since you need double green if you want to destroy something the turn you cast it. I am usually not holding back by artifact/enchantment destruction dudes that need five mana to kill anything because usually the target is already on the table and ready to die. I get that Wickerbough Elder is slightly more flexible if there are no targets yet but that never came up often enough that I considered it a plus compared to getting the effect immediately and for a more splashable cost.
Slime can be targeted by Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark thanks to that 2 power. I think Slime is way better. The deathtouch is relevant, and it can blow up lands (meaning it will always have a target).
Slime can be targeted by Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark thanks to that 2 power. I think Slime is way better. The deathtouch is relevant, and it can blow up lands (meaning it will always have a target).
And the target will never be one of your own things
Worse than a vanilla 4/4 is a vanilla 4/4 that costs you your own Sword or mana rock.
Well, around these parts Silverheart is pure gold in my eyes. The card hits like a dump truck, and I would run it in even the smallest of cubes. I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring and rank as well:
There's a lot of factors that go into making a green 5 drop better than another, but the most important in my eyes would be
1) How fast can it end the game by itself?
2) How well can it help stabalize a board when behind?
3) How consistant can it do these things ? How vulnerable is it ?(Vulnerability to a certain axis. IE Wolfir is weak to doomblade effects, Thragtusk is quite resilient. Soft to control magic only, deranged hermit is soft to red sweepers)
4) How much value can it generate?
1) Thragtusk presents a reasonable clock, stabilizes boards incredibly well, very resilient, generates absurd value and synergizes with other cards in cube to generate even more.
He's a bit on the slow side if you need a threat to end the game, but thats about his only weakness.
2) Deranged hermit strikes that perfect balance between, being able to stabalize boards, ending the game fast, is relatively hard to kill and can generate value with certain cards.
I put him extremly close to thragtusk in power level, since he presents a much faster clock, but he requires more mana investment, and can only present that clock if he's not killed.
3) Acidic slime is weird, since it's more of an "answer" than a threat. Doesn't follow these criteria very well. However, it is extremly abusable, and an extremly versatile answer.
If cube didn't have so many powerful non-creature permanants, or your deck already had many ways to answer them, acidic slime drops very low in the power level chart.
However, 1-3 versatile answers to non-creature permanants is essential for green. Control magic is a huge ***** to deal with otherwise. I see cards like acidic slime a necessity more than a game plan, and he's the best of them all.
It can become a threat when reanimated early into play, and then recurred somehow and erase your opponents lands.
4) Kalonian hydra has the best raw finishing power out of all the 5 drops, but is a little too vulnerable for my tastes. Nor does he stabilize a board very well. Thankfully green has many other cards that are good at stabilizing, so it's fine to have a bullet in your deck like this guy. Especially when you can abuse him with haste.
5) Wolfir silverheart is extremly powerful, and is a super bomb game ender. But he has a lot of weaknesses. It is really essential that the cube have ways to give him trample. Many token generators, army in a can effects, or removal heavy decks, blunt his effectiveness. I cut him from my cube when I cut rancor, berzerk and ghor-clan rampager. If all three of those cards are in your cube, I highly recommend running him.
6) Stomphowler is a worse acidic slime.. Which is good. But you don't need too many of those effects in your cube, and Im quite happy with Acidic slime + Reclamation sage + wickerbough elder for dealing with verstaile permanants.
7) Vorapede , GGG is a liability. More resilient than silverheart + hydra, but doesn't end the game as fast. Still soft to exile effects + control magic. If he cost 3GG, id put him like 9.5/10 the power level of silverheart.
8) Genesis is the best value generator out of all the 5 drops, but takes way too long to generate that value. Cube is way too fast for him IMO. He also doesn't fit with the nature of how green decks SHOULD be built to have the highest win %.
Green decks need to either, absolutely slaughter agro/beat other midrange decks to make up for a poor control/reanimator matchup.
Or compete with control/reanimator via heavy disruption + agression, or disruption + BROKEN value generation.
Genesis is too fair and conditional off a value generator. to be the sole engine to relied upon in those style decks.
Is be a very nice companion with recurring nightmare in those style of decks, but that is pretty narrow for a 5 drop slot.
Recurring nightmare , skull clamp and birthing pod are example of value generators that can be built around.
Phyrexian arena is another engine, but slightly less powerful.
I would be surprised if I still played him in 4 years.
4 years is a really long time. There's a ton of cards that are amazing current staples that probably won't be around in 4 years.
Yeah true, but wanted to highlight what I thought of his power level. I guess what you are saying is the term staple doesn't imply "indefinite staple".
My point was merely I think he is very clearly in the top 4 green 5 drops for creatures (so deserves a slot at 360), but I believe he is a low pick in a 360 environment,
don't think he is MUCH better than the competition, and expect to see a lot of powerful green 5 drops printed in the next few years that will knock him from his slot.
Perhaps I'm misusing the term staple. I always thought of staple as "Card that is powerful enough to be in everyone's (non-super weird) cube, and is not going anywhere anytime soon"
I always thought of staple as "Card that is powerful enough to be in everyone's (non-super weird) cube, and is not going anywhere anytime soon"
I do too. I guess I just don't consider 4 years to be "soon" as far as cube tenures go. I mean, I've only been cubing for 7-8 years, and only been managing my own lists for 6 ...so 4 years is an eternity for this format. Basically, a card that has a 4 year shelf life could still be a "staple" card at the moment. If you want the term "staple" to mean a concrete permanent addition, you can only say that about a handful of cards; most of them power or unprintable quality level cards, and mistakes.
Kalonian Hydra is amazing. The trample is extremely relevant especially since the cube is chock full of chump blockers/armies in a can. It's true, you won't get value if he gets hit with removal... But if the opponent doesn't have removal in their hand, well they're in a whole heap of trouble. I can't think of another 5-drop that can take an opponent from 20 to 0 in two swings.
Good interactions with Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark, and simply bananas with haste.
I always thought of staple as "Card that is powerful enough to be in everyone's (non-super weird) cube, and is not going anywhere anytime soon"
I do too. I guess I just don't consider 4 years to be "soon" as far as cube tenures go. I mean, I've only been cubing for 7-8 years, and only been managing my own lists for 6 ...so 4 years is an eternity for this format. Basically, a card that has a 4 year shelf life could still be a "staple" card at the moment. If you want the term "staple" to mean a concrete permanent addition, you can only say that about a handful of cards; most of them power or unprintable quality level cards, and mistakes.
Sure, misused the term staple. 2 years? The gap between 4 years and permanent is immeasurable. Id wager >50% of the current cards at 360 are in no danger of being cut from cubes within 4 years.
Guess I do consider Kalonian a staple, but not for long!
Key being , the trend that Wizards R&D's are taking towards style of cards that are seeing print.
Wizards has made it apparent that creature combat is the direction of magic's future, so definitely expect a bunch of big dumb powerful green 5 drop creatures to be printed...
Cheap universal removal is gone, counter magic is being nerfed, some speculation that 4 mana mass removal spells are being made to conditional 3 mana ones and unconditional 5-6 mana ones.
This is not only a trend in the card types being printed, but also discussed explicitly by magic R&D.
While I think that Mind Twist isn't too broken in an unpowered environment without super fast mana, the majority of my regular drafters have been urging me to cut that card for being too annoying to play against. So, I am looking for a replacement now. And since discard is one of black's signature mechanics, I'd like to replace it with another discard spell.
Despise is cheaper and more precise, but Stupor is closer to Twist, since it is almost a Twist with a fixed X=2. Are there any good discard creatures besides Liliana's Specter?
I'd go for Stupor. Despise is not that good and was so rarely drafted in my group that I eventually cut it. Despise hits only things that Black can remove on board anyway. The most important discard targets are those that are hard to deal with once they hit the board, like Enchantments or Artifacts.
Thragtusk is the epitome of versatile, it's the perfect bridge card for green monster decks, the kind of card you might search out with Natural Order or the kind of card you sacrifice to it. Makes for a super-easy splash in any deck, from Recurring Nightmare to tap-out control. Makes for a solid top end in G/x aggro. Makes for a perfect counter to fast decks.
I've been giving Kalonian Hydra haste a lot recently. G/r Sneak Attack is like, my favorite archetype, and there are so many dumb things you can do with a Kalonian Hydra in that deck -- Sneak Attack, Sarkhan Vol, Generator Servant, Fires of Yavimaya, Lightning Greaves, Orcish Lumberjack, Rofellos, and personal favorite Maelstrom Wanderer....but sometimes casting it on turn 5 is all you need to win a game because it's a 2 turn clock all by itself.
Deranged Hermit hasn't exactly dipped in cube-ability over the years. Blink effects gave it new life. Like Thragtusk it's great at stabilizing your board while being a threat as well. Green's perfect follow up to getting Wrathed.
Acidic Slime, though I don't value artifact/enchantment removal very highly, has a lot going for it, enough for its rank IMO. You're pretty much never remiss for a target. I believe specific land destruction to have no place in cube, but cards like Acidic Slime get a pass for being so versatile, dealing with non-creature permanents and creatures simultaneously.
Wolfir Silverheart is powerful, and usually hard to deal with if you don't have hard removal. It's kind of a generic fatty, which is why I have it lower than the others, but gifting a 4 point bonus to a creature already in play isn't anything to scoff at. Sometimes 12 points of power will put you further ahead than anything else you could be doing with 5 mana.
Indrik Stomphowler is a card that usually doesn't make my main decks but I will happily board it in when I see a decent target for its ability. With 5 drops being so dense in green, it's hard to give this one the green light for game 1 scenarios. But I've won my share of games when his effect was exactly what I needed. His 1 green symbol is a huge plus.
I like Vorapede, but I don't think he goes in enough decks. Green loves him as a creature that plays great offense and great defense at the same time, but really if he's not in a green deck, he can't be played. The others on this list can be splashed, can go into many archetypes, and have slightly more utility.
Genesis has had his day. I wouldn't mind still seeing him in cube. Control can be a big thorn in green's side, and having a continuous stream of creatures post-wrath is indeed a powerful effect. I think it's a mistake to put him in the 5 drop slot, if you put him in the 3 slot suddenly the competition changes. Personally, I can see how paying 3 for a raise dead isn't good enough anymore, but I love to durdle so Genesis is right up my alley.
I think Thornling deserves some discussion here too. Like many of green's 5 drops it's very apt at closing out games, but there isn't anything on this list that offers as much blatant resilience to removal. I'd put it 4th on my rankings.
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This is true, and definitely a big drawback on the pede that I forgot to mention. GGG is so much harder than GG.
Edit - That I forgot to mention in the vorapede thread. Was getting my threads confused.
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Agree with this 100%. We ran Thornling in our 540 and it was one of the first cuts to 450. It's a fine card, but really nothing spectacular. It doesn't do enough in any arena that you want a green fatty to do. It blocks okay, it attacks okay, it survives okay (gotta keep up mana for all this junk though, and even when you do it's just meh).
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Thragtusk
Deranged Hermit
Acidic Slime
Kalonian Hydra
Vorapede
----
Indrik Stomphowler
Wolfir Silverheart
Genesis
Playing the ones over the line
First, I disagree that a vanilla 4/4 is more relevant than a 2/2 deathtouch. I can get a better body on almost any other green creature in this CMC range, but the deathtouch is always relevant. With regard to splashability, if I wanted splashable ench/art destruction I'd just ask for Reclamation Sage or Wickerbough Elder for their cheaper cost. For 5 mana I don't want to play a card that at times will just be a 4/4. The fact that slime always has a target is huge... and that target is a land of all things. This is without mentioning how broken the slime can be when you get a recursion engine going. I don't think they're close.
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Thragtusk
Deranged Hermit
Acidic Slime
Kalonian Hydra
Genesis
----
Indrik Stomphowler
Wickerbough Elder
Vorapede
Thornling
Wolfir Silverheart
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And the target will never be one of your own things
Worse than a vanilla 4/4 is a vanilla 4/4 that costs you your own Sword or mana rock.
1. Thragtusk
2. Wolfir Silverheart
3. Deranged Hermit
4. Kalonian Hydra
5. Acidic Slime
6. Indrik Stomphowler
7. Vorapede
8. Thornling
9. Genesis
It's strange that back in 2007-2008, I would've ranked Genesis number one. Just goes to show just how different games of magic are these days...
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1. Thragtusk
2. Deranged Hermit
3. Acidic Slime
4. Kalonian Hydra
5. Wolfir Silverheart
6. Indrik Stomphowler
7. Vorapede
8. Genesis
There's a lot of factors that go into making a green 5 drop better than another, but the most important in my eyes would be
1) How fast can it end the game by itself?
2) How well can it help stabalize a board when behind?
3) How consistant can it do these things ? How vulnerable is it ?(Vulnerability to a certain axis. IE Wolfir is weak to doomblade effects, Thragtusk is quite resilient. Soft to control magic only, deranged hermit is soft to red sweepers)
4) How much value can it generate?
1) Thragtusk presents a reasonable clock, stabilizes boards incredibly well, very resilient, generates absurd value and synergizes with other cards in cube to generate even more.
He's a bit on the slow side if you need a threat to end the game, but thats about his only weakness.
2) Deranged hermit strikes that perfect balance between, being able to stabalize boards, ending the game fast, is relatively hard to kill and can generate value with certain cards.
I put him extremly close to thragtusk in power level, since he presents a much faster clock, but he requires more mana investment, and can only present that clock if he's not killed.
3) Acidic slime is weird, since it's more of an "answer" than a threat. Doesn't follow these criteria very well. However, it is extremly abusable, and an extremly versatile answer.
If cube didn't have so many powerful non-creature permanants, or your deck already had many ways to answer them, acidic slime drops very low in the power level chart.
However, 1-3 versatile answers to non-creature permanants is essential for green. Control magic is a huge ***** to deal with otherwise. I see cards like acidic slime a necessity more than a game plan, and he's the best of them all.
It can become a threat when reanimated early into play, and then recurred somehow and erase your opponents lands.
4) Kalonian hydra has the best raw finishing power out of all the 5 drops, but is a little too vulnerable for my tastes. Nor does he stabilize a board very well. Thankfully green has many other cards that are good at stabilizing, so it's fine to have a bullet in your deck like this guy. Especially when you can abuse him with haste.
5) Wolfir silverheart is extremly powerful, and is a super bomb game ender. But he has a lot of weaknesses. It is really essential that the cube have ways to give him trample. Many token generators, army in a can effects, or removal heavy decks, blunt his effectiveness. I cut him from my cube when I cut rancor, berzerk and ghor-clan rampager. If all three of those cards are in your cube, I highly recommend running him.
6) Stomphowler is a worse acidic slime.. Which is good. But you don't need too many of those effects in your cube, and Im quite happy with Acidic slime + Reclamation sage + wickerbough elder for dealing with verstaile permanants.
7) Vorapede , GGG is a liability. More resilient than silverheart + hydra, but doesn't end the game as fast. Still soft to exile effects + control magic. If he cost 3GG, id put him like 9.5/10 the power level of silverheart.
8) Genesis is the best value generator out of all the 5 drops, but takes way too long to generate that value. Cube is way too fast for him IMO. He also doesn't fit with the nature of how green decks SHOULD be built to have the highest win %.
Green decks need to either, absolutely slaughter agro/beat other midrange decks to make up for a poor control/reanimator matchup.
Or compete with control/reanimator via heavy disruption + agression, or disruption + BROKEN value generation.
Genesis is too fair and conditional off a value generator. to be the sole engine to relied upon in those style decks.
Is be a very nice companion with recurring nightmare in those style of decks, but that is pretty narrow for a 5 drop slot.
Recurring nightmare , skull clamp and birthing pod are example of value generators that can be built around.
Phyrexian arena is another engine, but slightly less powerful.
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Would your green decks want a 8/8 trampler for five mana? That's what the Hydra is. Then it simply ends the game if it swings a second time.
There's also a very nice synergy with the green Curse, if you're playing that.
It's the card Jace, Memory Adept wishes he was as good as.
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I don't. But I think he is powerful enough to deserve a spot.
I would be surprised if I still played him in 4 years.
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4 years is a really long time. There's a ton of cards that are amazing current staples that probably won't be around in 4 years.
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Yeah true, but wanted to highlight what I thought of his power level. I guess what you are saying is the term staple doesn't imply "indefinite staple".
My point was merely I think he is very clearly in the top 4 green 5 drops for creatures (so deserves a slot at 360), but I believe he is a low pick in a 360 environment,
don't think he is MUCH better than the competition, and expect to see a lot of powerful green 5 drops printed in the next few years that will knock him from his slot.
Perhaps I'm misusing the term staple. I always thought of staple as "Card that is powerful enough to be in everyone's (non-super weird) cube, and is not going anywhere anytime soon"
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I do too. I guess I just don't consider 4 years to be "soon" as far as cube tenures go. I mean, I've only been cubing for 7-8 years, and only been managing my own lists for 6 ...so 4 years is an eternity for this format. Basically, a card that has a 4 year shelf life could still be a "staple" card at the moment. If you want the term "staple" to mean a concrete permanent addition, you can only say that about a handful of cards; most of them power or unprintable quality level cards, and mistakes.
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Good interactions with Imperial Recruiter and Reveillark, and simply bananas with haste.
Sure, misused the term staple. 2 years? The gap between 4 years and permanent is immeasurable. Id wager >50% of the current cards at 360 are in no danger of being cut from cubes within 4 years.
Guess I do consider Kalonian a staple, but not for long!
Key being , the trend that Wizards R&D's are taking towards style of cards that are seeing print.
Wizards has made it apparent that creature combat is the direction of magic's future, so definitely expect a bunch of big dumb powerful green 5 drop creatures to be printed...
Cheap universal removal is gone, counter magic is being nerfed, some speculation that 4 mana mass removal spells are being made to conditional 3 mana ones and unconditional 5-6 mana ones.
This is not only a trend in the card types being printed, but also discussed explicitly by magic R&D.
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I am already running:
Potential inclusions (that I can think of) are:
Despise is cheaper and more precise, but Stupor is closer to Twist, since it is almost a Twist with a fixed X=2. Are there any good discard creatures besides Liliana's Specter?
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
If you really want to have another discard effect for B, go for Raven's Crime. While you can't choose what is discarded, it synergizes well with many other cards for mid- and lategame shenanigans like Life from the Loam, Upheaval, Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Land Tax or Crucible of Worlds.
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