Nice job on the cube, CB. After about 3-4 drafts of the optimal list, I'm a little concerned that reanimator is too strong of an archetype, or that graveyard hate isn't prevalent enough. I was drawn strongly toward reanimator decks each time I took the cube for a spin. Maybe the AI just isn't developed enough yet?
Ha! Was about to respond to your comment on CubeTutor, but it popped up here before I did!
It does look strong ATM, though I seem to be leaning towards Boros tokens a lot, as well as reanimator (ROFLCOPTER @ mass token production + Vicious Shadows + Blasphemous Act!)... admittedly, this doesn't rock a lot of graveyard hate, though. It's about the same level as my own cube, which has two really good yard hosers (Scavenging Ooze and Nezumi Graverobber) and not much else. That seems to have been a decent-enough balance for our group, which likes to reanimate stuff (and Ooze is rightfully hated for its ability to stop this).
Though Ben @ CubeTutor says it takes at least six drafts for the AI to kick in properly, so we'll see where it is next week. If it's staying like that, it might be time to drop Terramorphic Expanse for Bojuka Bog or something.
Nice job on the cube, CB. After about 3-4 drafts of the optimal list, I'm a little concerned that reanimator is too strong of an archetype, or that graveyard hate isn't prevalent enough. I was drawn strongly toward reanimator decks each time I took the cube for a spin. Maybe the AI just isn't developed enough yet?
-D
That's funny. I run quite a bit of graveyard hate and have not been able to get reanimator to work for *****. Dur. I wonder why.
Behold, it is finished - The 2014 Optimal Multiplayer Cube is available for a read/comment/troll.
Thanks to all who voted in the Power Rankings!
For those who don't want to sit through thirteen blogs posts of my drivel, you can draft the optimal cubes at CubeTutor already:
Looking through your list, I have a couple of suggestions:
-Brightstone Ritual seems weird, especially since you aren't running a lot of the great red goblin token generators like Mogg War-Marshall and Beetleback Chief. Battle Hymn costs one more, but counts ALL creatures you have, which makes it better support for the overall tokens archetype, especially outside of mono-red.
-Hateflayer is a creature I've never really gotten the love for. It's a 5/5 for 7 and needs to swing (barring outside help like Opposition) AND spend mana to get more than that + Wither. I'd much rather play Inferno Titan, which burns immediately and also on every attack, has a larger body, and can turn mana into extra damage anyways.
-Red has no Planeswalkers, while each other color has one. There are a lot of strong options in red, including Chandra Ablaze (mini-wheels, discard outlet, and large burn effects), Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (efficient beatdown body and large burn), Daretti, Scrap Savant (draw and recursion), Koth of the Hammer (efficient beatdown and ramp), Chandra, Pyromaster (draw and efficient ping/removing of blockers).
-In a similar vein, I question a few of your other Walker choices. I prefer either other version of Liliana over Dark Realms. Veil is mass discard (including a discard outlet for your own stuff) and removal, and Vess is repeatable targeted discard and tutors. Sorin Markov is also great as a way to counter lifegain/put someone into a kill zone, and his +2 is decent removal while boosting your life. I also prefer either other Elspeth over Tirel. Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be my pick here. For just one more mana than Tirel, she makes as many tokens as Tirel's - on a +, and she has access to a wrath effect right away as opposed to needing to wait a turn.
-30 lands seems like too few. Normal 360 cubes run 3 full cycles of dual lands (generally ABU Duals, Fetches, and Shocklands). It looks like you're running... fetches, duals, and the allied-only M10 checklands? And then only 5 additional nonbasics (looks like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Tolarian Academy, and Teramorphic Expanse). I'd definitely suggest upping this number to ~45, running a full set of shocks over the Checklands (or allied Worldwake Manduals + enemy shocks), and including some of the following nonbasics in your count: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (makes Coffers, Dark Realms, Tendrils, and similar much better), Volrath's Stronghold, Bojuka Bog, Library of Alexandria, Academy Ruins, City of Brass/Mana Confluence, Kor Haven, Emeria, the Sky Ruin/Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle (maybe), Oran-Rief, the Vastwood, Mosswort Bridge, Windbrisk Heights, Spinerock Knoll, Thawing Glaciers, Temple of the False Gods, Strip Mine, Maze of Ith, Vesuva. As for things to cut to make room, I'd start with your tricolor cards and your fifth allied card (4 per pair is pushing it at 360 anyways, and 5 is definitely too many, plus why are they imbalanced between allied/enemy?), then maybe trim one from each monocolored section
-Why, of the swords, is Sword of Light and Shadow the only one excluded? I like this one much more than Sword of Body and Mind and arguably more than Sword of War and Peace.
-I'd consider additional Nevinyrral's Disk effects, as these are extremely key for multiplayer, especially if you're pushing monocolored at all (which coffers, Caged Sun, Dark Realms, and Tendrils all seem to indicate you are). Oblivion Stone or Perilous Vault are both great choices. Expedition Map seems like it can be cut (especially if you don't expand your nonbasic section, as there are relatively few strong targets at the moment) for one of these.
-Black's Six slot seems a bit heavy, I'd consider losing Midnight Banshee for something on the lower end like Carrion Feeder, Bloodsoaked Champion, or Reassembling Skeleton. I'm not sure if you have enough vampires to make Malakir Bloodwitch strong enough, so that's another slot you can play with.
-I like Emeria Angel much more than Requiem Angel in terms of angels that make tokens.
-I'm not sure you have enough enchantments to make Replenish and Sigil of the Empty Throne worthwhile. Consider additional wraths like Day of Judgment and Catastrophe over them. Alternatively, Marshall's Anthem and Martial Coup are great token support cards you could replace these with
-Leonin Sun Standard is a bit more mana efficient than Gerard's Battle Cry
-Enchantress's Presence in the green section has the same issue as Replenish/Sigil. Where's Song of the Dryads?
-The Treefolk theme in green seems odd. How has this played for you?
-I think I'd prefer a consistent token generator like Sacred Mesa over the questionable and inconsistent Murder Investigation
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You've pretty much inadvertently hit on about the last ten cards I put in and dithered over, so I'll show my thought process one by one.
I've put it under a spoiler because it's a wall of text, but please don't let that distract anyone from going in and reading the discussion - debate of the choices is what makes this thread great, and what makes my own cube design get better!
-Brightstone Ritual seems weird, especially since you aren't running a lot of the great red goblin token generators like Mogg War-Marshall and Beetleback Chief. Battle Hymn costs one more, but counts ALL creatures you have, which makes it better support for the overall tokens archetype, especially outside of mono-red.
That's a really good call, and I should probably swap it. Brightstone Ritual was literally the last Goblin card I put in, and I had my blinders on due to a Goblin storm deck running around in my meta ATM (you know the type, Brightstone / Empty the Warrens / Jeskai Ascendancy and combo out before anyone cottons on). Battle Hymn would indeed be much more useful outside of that archetype, and no-one cares it costs one more mana when they're in a slower format like ours.
-Hateflayer is a creature I've never really gotten the love for. It's a 5/5 for 7 and needs to swing (barring outside help like Opposition) AND spend mana to get more than that + Wither. I'd much rather play Inferno Titan, which burns immediately and also on every attack, has a larger body, and can turn mana into extra damage anyways.
Only reason this is so is because Hateflayer got votes this year and Inferno Titan did not. And you're basically talking to the president of the Hateflayer Fanboi Club, and even I pick Inferno Titan over Hateflayer (... er... this would be where I go back and check my own voting patterns this year, and probably find I ranked Hateflayer above the Titan... I suspect my votes played a part in this happening, and if I did, this is where I say mea culpa!)
-Red has no Planeswalkers, while each other color has one. There are a lot of strong options in red, including Chandra Ablaze (mini-wheels, discard outlet, and large burn effects), Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (efficient beatdown body and large burn), Daretti, Scrap Savant (draw and recursion), Koth of the Hammer (efficient beatdown and ramp), Chandra, Pyromaster (draw and efficient ping/removing of blockers).
Chandra, Pyromaster was indeed the one, and she must have literally been the last thing I cut, as I'm surprised she's not in there. I suspect I probably had her listed in one of the other archetypes and put Goblins in instead.
-In a similar vein, I question a few of your other Walker choices. I prefer either other version of Liliana over Dark Realms. Veil is mass discard (including a discard outlet for your own stuff) and removal, and Vess is repeatable targeted discard and tutors. Sorin Markov is also great as a way to counter lifegain/put someone into a kill zone, and his +2 is decent removal while boosting your life. I also prefer either other Elspeth over Tirel. Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be my pick here. For just one more mana than Tirel, she makes as many tokens as Tirel's - on a +, and she has access to a wrath effect right away as opposed to needing to wait a turn.
Most of my choices there were driven by the fact that the things I pick inside the archetypes have to fit in the budget cube as well, which means I try and keep to cards under $20 a copy. This is the only reason Lili of the Veil and Elspeth, Sun's Champion didn't make an appearance - they'd have been in like a shot otherwise. Other than that, Wild Wild Vess actually snuck into the Legacy-legal version, and I've generally avoided Sorin Markov due to his triple-black CC (but don't get me wrong, he is very good). Lili of the Dark Realms is only in due to her ability to help ramp the swamps out for Griselbrand, Obliterator and all those other triple/quadruple black guys. I believe there's actually an MCD thread lying about from around six months back regarding the potential for mono-black ramp archetypes that references her in particular. But yeah, she's definitely only in as part of an archetype - I wouldn't put her inside the best 360.
I have thought that too, actually. I stuck to the cube section sizes defined in Hip to be Square (as you can see in the introduction), but this doesn't match my own personal cube anymore. My own has moved to 45 mono / 55 gold / 40 colourless / 40 land, and this seems to be a good mix for a Multiplayer / EDH cube (which is traditonally a little higher in the awesome golden things anyway). This has left a bit more room for some fun in gold and land in particular... perhaps we move to that shape next year? (Because, yeah, we missed Bojuka Bog and a couple of others this year... I even thought hard about Maze of Ith or Kor Haven for the control archetype).
The Swords all got voted lower this year, and SoLaS was so low that it didn't make it into the cube. Once it's not inside the first 80%, it's hard to get a $20+ card back in for budget reasons anyway, even if it does complete cycles.
Though, as much as I don't want to restart the "which Sword is the worst" debate, my playgroup generally ranks Body and Mind the highest of the five (as we're playing with 40 card decks, and it's decked a few people out all by itself in the past), while Light and Shadow is probably bottom (as there are other cards around that are better at recursing than the Sword is, and if you move past that, all it offers is protection and a little life gain). It's debatable as to why it was last of the five, but I can understand why it was there (and, for the record, this time last year, I had Feast and Famine on the bottom of my list, and it has promptly spent 2014 telling me I was an idiot, so there's hope for Light and Shadow yet).
-I'd consider additional Nevinyrral's Disk effects, as these are extremely key for multiplayer, especially if you're pushing monocolored at all (which coffers, Caged Sun, Dark Realms, and Tendrils all seem to indicate you are). Oblivion Stone or Perilous Vault are both great choices. Expedition Map seems like it can be cut (especially if you don't expand your nonbasic section, as there are relatively few strong targets at the moment) for one of these.
True dat. I probably could consider sticking a second one in, at least. I generally shy away from putting too many resets in, as my own meta spent a year or two mired in Reset-Every-Six-Turns Hell, and we've now self-regulated to the point that we limit the resets we play. But colourless ones are valuable, yes. I did leave All is Dust in along with the Disk, though, I guess. Fine line, that one.
Agreed with both of those, yes. Midnight Banshee was about the last black card I chose, and that is in solely because I couldn't find another decent black ramp card. It was almost Zombie Trailblazer, TBH. And yes, Bloodwitch was right on the edge - it has five other vampires to play with (Bloodghast, Blood Artist, Nighthawk, Nirkana Revenant, Olivia), along with whatever Sorin spits out token-wise. I think if it had been one vampire less, I'd have cut it.
And I agree with you. Requiem Angel just got the votes this year. Don't know how Emeria didn't garner enough votes to make it in, TBH - she's in the same boat as Inferno Titan, in that she's an awesome card that should be in the list but didn't get voted in.
Another close-run thing like Malakir Bloodwitch, yes. These guys were all voted pretty highly, so I was somewhat hesitant to drop them. That, coupled with my own experience of dropping Enchantress's Presence into a non-Enchantress-centric deck that just happened to coincidentally be running a few (simply in the name of a bit of card advantage... and yes, it works well enough to justify decking), led me to leave them in. I definitely considered both Marshal's Anthem and Martial Coup strongly. I think Coup might have been the last white card I dropped... you're running Soldiers as an archetype, and you don't include it? Are you mad?
-The Treefolk theme in green seems odd. How has this played for you?
While I can't say I've tried it in Cube yet, I have run a very cohesive mono-green Treefolk deck with these cards in normal Multiplayer for a couple of years now, and it is sneaky good. It works because the creatures are hard to deal with (Timber Protector, Dungrove Elder, Sapling of Colfenor), it carries a lot of solutions for a green strategy (Lignify, Rootgrapple, Woodfall Primus, Wickerbough Elder), it carries a sneaky-good finisher (Dauntless Dourbark, which will have trample 99.9% of the time), and Treefolk Harbinger finds every single bit of it (I cannot underestimate how good the Harbingers are in general, but this one in particular is incredible... even on the off chance that you don't need to dig out a Protector or part of your toolbox, it can fish out Forests instead, which ramps you and makes your Dungroves and Dourbarks fatter).
While it doesn't stand out as being strong, it is very, very resilient for a green strategy, particularly if you couple it with black and starting recursing Treefolk Harbinger, or with blue and starting to clone Timber Protector. And it certainly helps that the only obvious high pick in there is Woodfall Primus. I suspect if I threw it in my own cube, it would start playing quite similarly to Knights. Knight Exemplar went through a phase where it was almost getting first-picked, once the Knights proved to be a game-winning strategy with that on the board. Treefolk would do something very similar with Timber Protector out. In normal multiplayer, this deck is always there at the end of the game.
-I think I'd prefer a consistent token generator like Sacred Mesa over the questionable and inconsistent Murder Investigation
Yeah, that was very much white card #50. I was searching for something that made Soldiers in particular, though. Perhaps this should get dropped for Martial Coup? Two birds, one stone...
EDIT: Ooh, forgot to mention... Song of the Dryads is not in because I started the power rankings before C14 came out. Suspect it would be in otherwise.
Seems to me that you're being a little too much of a slave to your "multiplayer rankings" votes, which are, clearly, subjective. I'm not sure I'd call a list "optimal" if it ran cards that are weaker than other cards just because a few more people voted for the card being included.
But hey, that's just me. I'm interested to hear what your results are from testing. Maybe stuff works out better than I'm imagining.
Also, re: Enchantress's Presence - have you considered Eidolon of Blossoms? It's a bit more vulnerable, but it draws whenever you get an enchantment ETBing (like from Replenish, for example) and it guarantees a card to replace itself at the minimum, plus is a decent flicker/bounce target because of that.
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Seems to me that you're being a little too much of a slave to your "multiplayer rankings" votes, which are, clearly, subjective. I'm not sure I'd call a list "optimal" if it ran cards that are weaker than other cards just because a few more people voted for the card being included.
Yeah, I am a slave to the votes, but that's mostly because I'd rather be using the cards that a bunch of people consider the best - otherwise, it's just my own thoughts on the matter. And I can easily be proven an idiot on some matters.
What I want to do when I have some time in the new year, though, is the following... I have three years' worth of data now, and I think there's probably close to 200 cards that you could call "must-haves" by now. Anything that finished in about the top five in a given year (to cover the new cards this year, like Gary), or anything consistently voted highly across all three years. It would be nice to begin to get to a point where we can say "These are the top cards in this colour / CC / guild".
Also, re: Enchantress's Presence - have you considered Eidolon of Blossoms? It's a bit more vulnerable, but it draws whenever you get an enchantment ETBing (like from Replenish, for example) and it guarantees a card to replace itself at the minimum, plus is a decent flicker/bounce target because of that.
Yah, I'm amazed that thing didn't get more votes. I guess not many have played with it yet... I stayed away from it a bit myself given it's a creature (which is why I lean towards Presence... it gets axed a lot less in my meta than a creature equivalent would). But the interaction with Replenish is indeed gorgeous.
I'm thankfully drawing to a close an intense, months-long overhaul of my edh cube, one that will probably represent about 25-50% of the cube being replaced. Much of it represents shedding questionable cards, incorporating powerful and expensive staples, and reducing the overall CMC curve, but I'm also excited to test out bunch of cards whose permanent place has yet to be determined. Here a are some of them:
Archangel of thune - it's a bit surprising to me the low incidence of this card throughout the edh cubes I've looked over. Her 5 cmc puts her in a nice position of not overpopulating the 6+ slot that many angels occupy. I think she will do nicely supporting orzhov lifegain/lifelinking/extort strategies, white equipment, and tokens.
Master of waves - this guy is in a few cubes, although I don't recall any specific discussions. I am excited to see how he fares amidst blue's cloning and copying strategies. Although he is strongly aligned with blue devotion, his ability seems like a good compliment to the other five colors - anthem support in white and green, vicious shadows and similar effects in red, and value sac in black and artifact.
Reef worm - similar to master of waves, I am looking forward to this card in conjunction with the aforementioned clone and especially copyabuse. Each creature produced, really sets up a hard to deal with chain reaction. All of the exile removal I packed into mine will finally justify its inclusion.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage - my planeswalker selection has ballooned enormously during my update. Hopefully this general performs well in the superfriends I am envisioning occurring.
Freed from the real - is a card that I have had fantastic luck with in pauper edh, and I hope can make the transition to traditional. I will likely be testing phenax, god of deception over oona, queen of the fae during one of my updates, and am hopeful that freed comes in handy there. It of course also has great applications with kiki jiki and variety of other creatures and effects.
Waste not - I will probably need to beef up my discard suite to better facilitate this, but an inexpensive, and versatile black enchant is enticing to me! Repercussion - a recent addition to the cube, and one I am anticipating wreaking all sorts of havoc.
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - a controversial choice, due to perceptions of too high a cmc for the card. In practice and observations of the precons, she is a pretty nifty general, and one I hope will allow G/x decks to grow unexpectedly out of control through board state and cashing out on card draw.
See the unwritten - I cut chord of calling for this as a way of reducing both triple mana symbols and ratcheting back the number of tutors in my cube. I will be keen to see how "look at x top card effects" such as see, dig through time, and tezzeret, agent of bolas perform in this format. Will the density of relevant cards be enough for these to shine?
dreadbore - I was initially dismissive of this card due to sorcery speed, but the recent addition of so many new planeswalkers I feel will necessitate this, as will more "permanent" killers such as banishing light and song of the dryads.
Huntmaster of the fells - recent reports of success with this guy (flipping constantly[/c] have prompted me to add him to my creature-deficient gruul section.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - probably a controversial inclusion, but one I'm completing out of a desire for > 1 planeswalker for each guild. I am getting close to testing hardened scales as well, due to the glut of hydras and other counter loving cards wizards has been producing as of late.
Deathreap ritual - I am keen to see if this card results in the amount of card draw some users have reported.
Mindcrank - I was somewhat surprised I had never noticed the potential of this card; very low cmc, and benefits greatly off of squabbling between opponents, like edric. It will remain to be seen whether this will attract too much attention to its owner, or may backfire when opponents unleash their own reanimation effects...
Are any folks using members of the Hunted cycle in their cubes? Do the tokens they grant still outweigh their benefits, even in a multiplayer setting?
I'm considering hunted dragon as a possible replacement for hoard-smelter dragon in my own edh cube. HD's CMC, haste, and creature type (kaalia) are all attractive to me, and I don't see that much issue with giving the losing-est opponent some tokens to speed bump the other players. I could see the hunted cycle working well with Æther Flash, pyroclasm, and pyrohemia, which I know a few cubes run.
If you like Freed from the Real, what about Pemmin's Aura. It provides the same Untap ability at the same CMC, but also provides a slew of other interesting abilities. It can't be used to shut off an opposing threat by tapping it every turn, but you can dump all your mana into the +1/-1 ability to kill something off with it too.
Works great on Phenax if you get devotion to turn him on, as you can pump your toughness huge and then untap to get a ton of cards milled at once.
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Also re: the Hunted cycle, they're decent if you can play politics well. Getting 13 power of dudes aimed at your opponents for two mana is amazing. You just have to be able to convince the person who ends up with 6 of that power to swing them where you want.
But ultimately, they're just fatties, and don't do anything super interesting, so I'm not drawn to play them.
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Also re: the Hunted cycle, they're decent if you can play politics well. Getting 13 power of dudes aimed at your opponents for two mana is amazing. You just have to be able to convince the person who ends up with 6 of that power to swing them where you want.
But ultimately, they're just fatties, and don't do anything super interesting, so I'm not drawn to play them.
How is Hunted Horror anything BUT interesting? He's not "just a fatty." He's a 13/13 Trampler spread across 3 bodies for 2 mana. He's Entomb + Exhume except you don't need the Entomb and GY hate is useless. Assuming that some people in your circle do adopt a "I don't mess with people who don't mess with me/who help me" mentality then the card is frikkin' busted. Clearly he won't work for everyone but I've played with throngs of newer players in my hayday and a huge % of them don't like to rustle any feathers if they can help it. I refuse to believe that no one out there regularly plays with less-seasoned adversaries who wouldn't behave similarly. Obviously a big dork won't close a multiplayer game out but that doesn't mean that it won't put you in a strong position to win. I've used that card (and ones similar to it) to cheese some of the stronger players at the table out (you have 1 turn to answer it or you're basically screwed; even if you don't die immediately the incidental damage will finish you off shortly) at which point it was just me vs people who I knew that I was better than.
Hunted Phantasm is similar except I don't think there's any significant risk with respect to playing it. The card is a ginormous wall and giving someone chump blockers rarely has significant negative consequences in my experience. Blue (in general) doesn't have much meat at lower CMCs which means that you can often get run over by the Green/White/Red decks. This card is a "Fog bank" early on if needed but it's also a legitimate beatstick for when you need to take someone down. I refuse to draft cards that I would actively put in my opponents' decks (given the option) which means that things like Propaganda and Fog Bank are no-gos (and I have no idea how people make those things work). Phantasm is nice because it's something at sub 4 CMC that can legitimately dissuade attacks without being a useless, do-nothing piece of crap wall. Blue clearly has other options, it's not the only playable card or anything, but there's only so many Callous Oppressors that you can play without taking a ton of pressure.
Hunted Dragon has been stellar for me. I think that "Wildfires" are some of the best Red win conditions in the game and so any cheap threats that can survive them are aces in my mind. Your top picks are Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, etc. so cards like these are "free kills" that can easily take a player out before they can answer it.
Hunted Lammasu was "fine" but then power-creep happened and now 4 CMC is filled with nothing but all-upside bombs like Hero of Bladehold. I don't dislike the card, I do think that it's underrated (a 4/4 just sits around and threatens blocks) but ultimately it's just not what most White decks need. The real problem with this card is that "good stuffs White" isn't really an archetype because White is worse than 3 of the other colors. If you're not building something synergistic and/or unfair you're not going to win value wars against Blue/Black/Green decks so you kinds of need to slant your Cubes to support things like Enchantress, Stax, Token, etc. as opposed to simply running good cards. These kinds of cards are the first to go if you need to make room for, oh, say, Sphere of Safety.
Hunted Troll is just garbage. It's the card that sits around and blocks while your opponent gets in for free damage in the air. The card is complete trash and shouldn't be played.
A) People don't always drink the Kool-aid. If you give me two 3/3 pro blacks but start terrorizing the board with a 7/7 trample on turn two, those 3/3's are probably headed your way
B) Fat creatures with no other abilities aren't really exciting. Sure, I get to beat down some, but it's going to take 18 hits of a 7/7 to kill 3 people from 40, meaning it's hardly a fast clock on its own. If he gave YOU the tokens, he'd be more exciting because of the token abuse potential, but you can't really take his BCS (the person you give the tokens to follows your lead) to be gospel truth, especially when you CAN'T actually do any of the usual token abuse stuff with him.
C) Wrath effects are super common in EDH. If all your fatty did was get in some damage before being swept, it's generally not worthwhile.
I know this is another schism of Multiplayer vs EDH Cube, but that's how I see it.
I wouldn't run Serra Ascendant if it didn't also gain you life, and he's a 6/6 flying for W.
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I can see why you wouldn't want a card that is just a beater in the cube, but I wouldn't say it isn't interesting.
What I like with this card, is that it forces people to react. You can't just ignore 13 power on turn 2. It is also a pretty good follow up play to a wrath since you put the pressure back up for 2 mana.
The obvious downside is that turn 2, you don't know where the tokens will go, but in my experience, they generally don't come back to your face very often. Later in the game, you should have a good idea of what is to come.
I also like that you can help out the random mana-screwed opponent so he has some fun at least.
Now that we're about 70 cards deep into spoiler season, what's jumping out to folks as interesting, testable, or surefire inclusions during your next update?
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - I'm not going to scramble for this one until its hype price comes down a bit, but this will likely replace eldrazi conscription in my edh cube. No real downsides to the card at all.
Dragonscale General - will watch as potential support for tokens, counters, voltron support; might be too win more, but I imagine you can make your tokens quite large off attacking a prostrate opponent.
Soulfire Grand Master - I've started running a lore seeker-only draft pack of tri-color cards in my cube. This will probably replace flying crane technique, but again, no rush to grab this one at its prerelease price.
Monastery Mentor - would like to test for token/durdle archetype support; in no rush to acquire though, depending on standard/modern inflated price point.
Monastery Siege - This is interesting to me as a utility enchant, fetchable with Zur. I might test it, although in exchange for what, I am uncertain.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest - I will likely test this as a replacement for either Numot or Ruhan. Numot is a favorite whipping dragon around here, but I'm leaning on taking out Ruhan, as having Shu Yun and Ruhan strikes me as a too much voltron in that wedge.
Supplant Form - neat card I'll be watching, but I don't think it has a place in my cube right now; I'm already saturated with clones in mine, and have been in the process of actually cutting down that department. Instant speed on this guy might make lead to backbreaking plays off of it.
Archfiend of Depravity - surefire replacement for Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. Crippling against certain deck types, assuming you can protect the demon.
Palace Siege - will watch, but a doubtful inclusion.
Soulflayer - will likely test in the place of mortivore or some other high CMC demon in my cube.
Flamerush Rider - very interested, will likely test over some 6+ cmc red card.
Flamewake Phoenix - will watch. Seems a little on the weak side, but I'm hungry for good red 3 drops in my cube. I imagine that there might be some good altar shenanigans available via this creature. Not sure if the combat-only resurrection clause might subvert its abuse potential though.
Frontier Siege - will watch, but this is not at the front of the line for green priority replacements
Shamanic Revelation - watching closely, especially if I continue to push forward with cutting tutors in favor of top decking.
Whisperwood Elemental - very interesting card. I may test it if a copy falls in my lap, but no immediate plans. Neat card and I'm sure in the right hands can really produce some novel interactions and board states.
Dromoka, the Eternal, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, + the U/W dragon - unless reforged and dragons of tarkir produce some really insane non-red dragon options, I can't see any of these making their way into my generals section.
Lots of great stuff in this set, but strangely very little of it is "must have."
Monastery Mentor: Seems like a nice little engine, that only costs 3 mana.
Soulfire Grand Master: This guy does a lot of work for a 2 drop. Sadly another mythic!
Archfiend of Depravity: Doubt this guy will survive for long, but if he does he can do serious damage to a board.
Brutal Hordechief: Goes perfectly in a tokens deck to add some reach and the ability can be a fun way to mess combat between 2 opponents.
Outpost Siege: I don't really like the card, but that's how bad red card draw is...
Shaman of the Great Hunt: I like this guy, but I think he might be slow for a regular MP cube. Will test it anyways since it serves as an anthem and repeatable card draw is always sweet.
Shamanic Revelation: I like the combination of lifegain and card draw, but this does nothing after a wrath where you need the gas to recover. I could be wrong, but I don't think this cuts it.
Whisperwood Elemental: I love wrath protection and this does a good job at it, so I will definitely test it.
------------------------------------------
Also, I've been analyzing my cube and have made a few changes. I'm still on the fence about a few in each section. First off, black:
I feel like 45 of the 47 cards are locked in or close, but I have 2 I'm unsure about. Skirsdag High Priest Abyssal Persecutor/Desecration Demon
I am considering the following as potential replacements:
- Bloodchief Ascension: Can take over a game, but also draws a lot of hate your way. Mediocre top deck later as well.
- Wight of Precinct Six: Cheap beater, but that's all he is. Plus he isn't really a 2 drop.
- Falkenrath Noble: Can make it rough to wrath you and offsets black life loss. Stats are pretty bad though for a 4 drop.
So what do you think? I'm open to other suggestions I might have missed.
Erebos, God of the Dead has been surprisingly solid in a few games we've played. When he's "turned off" and his innate indestructibility really make him a good stand by card. Coffin Queen is a classic that I don't see on your cube list. Black Sun's Zenith is super cheap now, due to over reprinting in commander products. I think that's a must have, IMO.
If you're tempted by cards like bloodchief ascension, I think you'll need global discard effects to help rack up the counters. Consider bottomless pit, necrogen mists, cunning lethemancer, and oppression. Before I'd include ascension, I think I'd also want to try out waste not, which just has a ton of cool modes IF you're able to get one of the aforementioned discard effects to stick.
I did in fact forget Erebos. He seems good. I chose Victimize over Queen since it seems really fragile. As for BSZ I cut it because at the time people commented I had too many wraths for 360. But it clearly is a sweet card.
As for the Ascension it triggers off damage so I don't think I need (or want) to include discard. I see it as an aggro card that adds reach to the deck.
Thanks for the feedback!
I wasn't fond of Erebos for the longest time, then I built a budget EDH deck based around him. Pestilence effects are amazing with him, as your opponents can't raise their life to get out from under the Pestilence pressure, they enable his devotion, and when he's enabled, he's a creature that survives any amount of Pestilence to keep them around. Plus, since I run my own life gain cards to keep my life ahead of other peoples' so they die to the pestilence, he can draw some extra cards pretty easily.
I'm still not sure he's got a place in my Cube though. I don't run that many Pestilence effects, nor that much black lifegain. There are tons of other black draw for life cards, and they're basically all way more efficient than he is. Shutting off opposing lifegain is also pretty situational.
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I feel like I'm legitimately excited about Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Flamewake Phoenix, and Archfiend of Depravity. Nothing else so far has me all that excited but I always end up trying out a few things and seeing how they play. I bet a few of the Siege cards will at least get a trial run.
As to Miaou's question, I think Bloodchief Ascension is a great stand alone card. I haven't made any conscience decisions to support it and it's frequently great (though admittedly an awful top deck late game). I'm not a fan of Abyssal Persecutor, and Desecration Demon in cube, and I've found Skirsdag High Priest to be underperforming as well and am thinking about replacing it (two extra guys to tap is a lot). There aren't a lot of 4 drops I can think of that you aren't already running, but I'd also recommend Coffin Queen, and Liliana's Specter is pretty good too (and would support Ascension if you went that way). As for two drops, I like Wight of Precinct Six. It costs so little mana, many times you can wrath and then cast it on the same turn for good value.
For me so far, Shaman of the Great Hunt is in if its price lands somewhere affordable - I am of the mind that Gruul in particular could do with that card draw. Obviously, Ugin is in the same boat, but I'm under no illusion that he's going to be anything less than $40 a copy!
I would love to put Soulfire Grand Master in, but he doesn't have enough direct damage spells to work with (I believe I'm at ten spells capable of triggering the lifelink, but most of them have a lot of modes or conditions and won't always trigger). That said, buyback is always sweet. I'll see what my playgroup says.
I'm pondering Shamanic Revelation, too. Collective Unconscious was always a good card in my meta, and this is strictly better.
Following your suggestions guys, I think I will go:
-1 Skirsdag High Priest
-1 Abyssal Persecutor
-1 Victimize
+1 Bloodchief Ascension
+1 Wight of Precinct Six
+1 Coffin Queen
I'll bug you guys again later for another color Thanks!
Is anyone else excited about the interaction between Rush and Extort or is it just me? I'm hoping for a couple more good Rush cards in black.
Seems like a cute interaction: mardu shadowspear + B to bleed the table a bit. What's your extort suite look like?
Spoilers: Tasigur, the Golden Fang is interesting; I'll probably test this over the disappointing Sidisi. Damia and mimeoplasm still aren't going anywhere though.
Ha! Was about to respond to your comment on CubeTutor, but it popped up here before I did!
It does look strong ATM, though I seem to be leaning towards Boros tokens a lot, as well as reanimator (ROFLCOPTER @ mass token production + Vicious Shadows + Blasphemous Act!)... admittedly, this doesn't rock a lot of graveyard hate, though. It's about the same level as my own cube, which has two really good yard hosers (Scavenging Ooze and Nezumi Graverobber) and not much else. That seems to have been a decent-enough balance for our group, which likes to reanimate stuff (and Ooze is rightfully hated for its ability to stop this).
Though Ben @ CubeTutor says it takes at least six drafts for the AI to kick in properly, so we'll see where it is next week. If it's staying like that, it might be time to drop Terramorphic Expanse for Bojuka Bog or something.
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Looking through your list, I have a couple of suggestions:
-Brightstone Ritual seems weird, especially since you aren't running a lot of the great red goblin token generators like Mogg War-Marshall and Beetleback Chief. Battle Hymn costs one more, but counts ALL creatures you have, which makes it better support for the overall tokens archetype, especially outside of mono-red.
-Hateflayer is a creature I've never really gotten the love for. It's a 5/5 for 7 and needs to swing (barring outside help like Opposition) AND spend mana to get more than that + Wither. I'd much rather play Inferno Titan, which burns immediately and also on every attack, has a larger body, and can turn mana into extra damage anyways.
-Red has no Planeswalkers, while each other color has one. There are a lot of strong options in red, including Chandra Ablaze (mini-wheels, discard outlet, and large burn effects), Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker (efficient beatdown body and large burn), Daretti, Scrap Savant (draw and recursion), Koth of the Hammer (efficient beatdown and ramp), Chandra, Pyromaster (draw and efficient ping/removing of blockers).
-In a similar vein, I question a few of your other Walker choices. I prefer either other version of Liliana over Dark Realms. Veil is mass discard (including a discard outlet for your own stuff) and removal, and Vess is repeatable targeted discard and tutors. Sorin Markov is also great as a way to counter lifegain/put someone into a kill zone, and his +2 is decent removal while boosting your life. I also prefer either other Elspeth over Tirel. Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be my pick here. For just one more mana than Tirel, she makes as many tokens as Tirel's - on a +, and she has access to a wrath effect right away as opposed to needing to wait a turn.
-30 lands seems like too few. Normal 360 cubes run 3 full cycles of dual lands (generally ABU Duals, Fetches, and Shocklands). It looks like you're running... fetches, duals, and the allied-only M10 checklands? And then only 5 additional nonbasics (looks like Cabal Coffers, Gaea's Cradle, Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx, Tolarian Academy, and Teramorphic Expanse). I'd definitely suggest upping this number to ~45, running a full set of shocks over the Checklands (or allied Worldwake Manduals + enemy shocks), and including some of the following nonbasics in your count: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth (makes Coffers, Dark Realms, Tendrils, and similar much better), Volrath's Stronghold, Bojuka Bog, Library of Alexandria, Academy Ruins, City of Brass/Mana Confluence, Kor Haven, Emeria, the Sky Ruin/Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle (maybe), Oran-Rief, the Vastwood, Mosswort Bridge, Windbrisk Heights, Spinerock Knoll, Thawing Glaciers, Temple of the False Gods, Strip Mine, Maze of Ith, Vesuva. As for things to cut to make room, I'd start with your tricolor cards and your fifth allied card (4 per pair is pushing it at 360 anyways, and 5 is definitely too many, plus why are they imbalanced between allied/enemy?), then maybe trim one from each monocolored section
-Why, of the swords, is Sword of Light and Shadow the only one excluded? I like this one much more than Sword of Body and Mind and arguably more than Sword of War and Peace.
-I'd consider additional Nevinyrral's Disk effects, as these are extremely key for multiplayer, especially if you're pushing monocolored at all (which coffers, Caged Sun, Dark Realms, and Tendrils all seem to indicate you are). Oblivion Stone or Perilous Vault are both great choices. Expedition Map seems like it can be cut (especially if you don't expand your nonbasic section, as there are relatively few strong targets at the moment) for one of these.
-Black's Six slot seems a bit heavy, I'd consider losing Midnight Banshee for something on the lower end like Carrion Feeder, Bloodsoaked Champion, or Reassembling Skeleton. I'm not sure if you have enough vampires to make Malakir Bloodwitch strong enough, so that's another slot you can play with.
-I like Emeria Angel much more than Requiem Angel in terms of angels that make tokens.
-I'm not sure you have enough enchantments to make Replenish and Sigil of the Empty Throne worthwhile. Consider additional wraths like Day of Judgment and Catastrophe over them. Alternatively, Marshall's Anthem and Martial Coup are great token support cards you could replace these with
-Leonin Sun Standard is a bit more mana efficient than Gerard's Battle Cry
-Enchantress's Presence in the green section has the same issue as Replenish/Sigil. Where's Song of the Dryads?
-The Treefolk theme in green seems odd. How has this played for you?
-I think I'd prefer a consistent token generator like Sacred Mesa over the questionable and inconsistent Murder Investigation
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You've pretty much inadvertently hit on about the last ten cards I put in and dithered over, so I'll show my thought process one by one.
I've put it under a spoiler because it's a wall of text, but please don't let that distract anyone from going in and reading the discussion - debate of the choices is what makes this thread great, and what makes my own cube design get better!
That's a really good call, and I should probably swap it. Brightstone Ritual was literally the last Goblin card I put in, and I had my blinders on due to a Goblin storm deck running around in my meta ATM (you know the type, Brightstone / Empty the Warrens / Jeskai Ascendancy and combo out before anyone cottons on). Battle Hymn would indeed be much more useful outside of that archetype, and no-one cares it costs one more mana when they're in a slower format like ours.
Only reason this is so is because Hateflayer got votes this year and Inferno Titan did not. And you're basically talking to the president of the Hateflayer Fanboi Club, and even I pick Inferno Titan over Hateflayer (... er... this would be where I go back and check my own voting patterns this year, and probably find I ranked Hateflayer above the Titan... I suspect my votes played a part in this happening, and if I did, this is where I say mea culpa!)
Chandra, Pyromaster was indeed the one, and she must have literally been the last thing I cut, as I'm surprised she's not in there. I suspect I probably had her listed in one of the other archetypes and put Goblins in instead.
Most of my choices there were driven by the fact that the things I pick inside the archetypes have to fit in the budget cube as well, which means I try and keep to cards under $20 a copy. This is the only reason Lili of the Veil and Elspeth, Sun's Champion didn't make an appearance - they'd have been in like a shot otherwise. Other than that, Wild Wild Vess actually snuck into the Legacy-legal version, and I've generally avoided Sorin Markov due to his triple-black CC (but don't get me wrong, he is very good).
Lili of the Dark Realms is only in due to her ability to help ramp the swamps out for Griselbrand, Obliterator and all those other triple/quadruple black guys. I believe there's actually an MCD thread lying about from around six months back regarding the potential for mono-black ramp archetypes that references her in particular. But yeah, she's definitely only in as part of an archetype - I wouldn't put her inside the best 360.
I have thought that too, actually. I stuck to the cube section sizes defined in Hip to be Square (as you can see in the introduction), but this doesn't match my own personal cube anymore. My own has moved to 45 mono / 55 gold / 40 colourless / 40 land, and this seems to be a good mix for a Multiplayer / EDH cube (which is traditonally a little higher in the awesome golden things anyway). This has left a bit more room for some fun in gold and land in particular... perhaps we move to that shape next year? (Because, yeah, we missed Bojuka Bog and a couple of others this year... I even thought hard about Maze of Ith or Kor Haven for the control archetype).
The Swords all got voted lower this year, and SoLaS was so low that it didn't make it into the cube. Once it's not inside the first 80%, it's hard to get a $20+ card back in for budget reasons anyway, even if it does complete cycles.
Though, as much as I don't want to restart the "which Sword is the worst" debate, my playgroup generally ranks Body and Mind the highest of the five (as we're playing with 40 card decks, and it's decked a few people out all by itself in the past), while Light and Shadow is probably bottom (as there are other cards around that are better at recursing than the Sword is, and if you move past that, all it offers is protection and a little life gain). It's debatable as to why it was last of the five, but I can understand why it was there (and, for the record, this time last year, I had Feast and Famine on the bottom of my list, and it has promptly spent 2014 telling me I was an idiot, so there's hope for Light and Shadow yet).
True dat. I probably could consider sticking a second one in, at least. I generally shy away from putting too many resets in, as my own meta spent a year or two mired in Reset-Every-Six-Turns Hell, and we've now self-regulated to the point that we limit the resets we play. But colourless ones are valuable, yes. I did leave All is Dust in along with the Disk, though, I guess. Fine line, that one.
Agreed with both of those, yes. Midnight Banshee was about the last black card I chose, and that is in solely because I couldn't find another decent black ramp card. It was almost Zombie Trailblazer, TBH. And yes, Bloodwitch was right on the edge - it has five other vampires to play with (Bloodghast, Blood Artist, Nighthawk, Nirkana Revenant, Olivia), along with whatever Sorin spits out token-wise. I think if it had been one vampire less, I'd have cut it.
And I agree with you. Requiem Angel just got the votes this year. Don't know how Emeria didn't garner enough votes to make it in, TBH - she's in the same boat as Inferno Titan, in that she's an awesome card that should be in the list but didn't get voted in.
Another close-run thing like Malakir Bloodwitch, yes. These guys were all voted pretty highly, so I was somewhat hesitant to drop them. That, coupled with my own experience of dropping Enchantress's Presence into a non-Enchantress-centric deck that just happened to coincidentally be running a few (simply in the name of a bit of card advantage... and yes, it works well enough to justify decking), led me to leave them in. I definitely considered both Marshal's Anthem and Martial Coup strongly. I think Coup might have been the last white card I dropped... you're running Soldiers as an archetype, and you don't include it? Are you mad?
I always forget that thing exists, as I stick it under colourless in my own brain, but yes, it probably deserves the white slot, yes.
While I can't say I've tried it in Cube yet, I have run a very cohesive mono-green Treefolk deck with these cards in normal Multiplayer for a couple of years now, and it is sneaky good. It works because the creatures are hard to deal with (Timber Protector, Dungrove Elder, Sapling of Colfenor), it carries a lot of solutions for a green strategy (Lignify, Rootgrapple, Woodfall Primus, Wickerbough Elder), it carries a sneaky-good finisher (Dauntless Dourbark, which will have trample 99.9% of the time), and Treefolk Harbinger finds every single bit of it (I cannot underestimate how good the Harbingers are in general, but this one in particular is incredible... even on the off chance that you don't need to dig out a Protector or part of your toolbox, it can fish out Forests instead, which ramps you and makes your Dungroves and Dourbarks fatter).
While it doesn't stand out as being strong, it is very, very resilient for a green strategy, particularly if you couple it with black and starting recursing Treefolk Harbinger, or with blue and starting to clone Timber Protector. And it certainly helps that the only obvious high pick in there is Woodfall Primus. I suspect if I threw it in my own cube, it would start playing quite similarly to Knights. Knight Exemplar went through a phase where it was almost getting first-picked, once the Knights proved to be a game-winning strategy with that on the board. Treefolk would do something very similar with Timber Protector out. In normal multiplayer, this deck is always there at the end of the game.
Yeah, that was very much white card #50. I was searching for something that made Soldiers in particular, though. Perhaps this should get dropped for Martial Coup? Two birds, one stone...
EDIT: Ooh, forgot to mention... Song of the Dryads is not in because I started the power rankings before C14 came out. Suspect it would be in otherwise.
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But hey, that's just me. I'm interested to hear what your results are from testing. Maybe stuff works out better than I'm imagining.
Also, re: Enchantress's Presence - have you considered Eidolon of Blossoms? It's a bit more vulnerable, but it draws whenever you get an enchantment ETBing (like from Replenish, for example) and it guarantees a card to replace itself at the minimum, plus is a decent flicker/bounce target because of that.
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Yeah, I am a slave to the votes, but that's mostly because I'd rather be using the cards that a bunch of people consider the best - otherwise, it's just my own thoughts on the matter. And I can easily be proven an idiot on some matters.
What I want to do when I have some time in the new year, though, is the following... I have three years' worth of data now, and I think there's probably close to 200 cards that you could call "must-haves" by now. Anything that finished in about the top five in a given year (to cover the new cards this year, like Gary), or anything consistently voted highly across all three years. It would be nice to begin to get to a point where we can say "These are the top cards in this colour / CC / guild".
That's the fun part, right?
Yah, I'm amazed that thing didn't get more votes. I guess not many have played with it yet... I stayed away from it a bit myself given it's a creature (which is why I lean towards Presence... it gets axed a lot less in my meta than a creature equivalent would). But the interaction with Replenish is indeed gorgeous.
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Archangel of thune - it's a bit surprising to me the low incidence of this card throughout the edh cubes I've looked over. Her 5 cmc puts her in a nice position of not overpopulating the 6+ slot that many angels occupy. I think she will do nicely supporting orzhov lifegain/lifelinking/extort strategies, white equipment, and tokens.
Master of waves - this guy is in a few cubes, although I don't recall any specific discussions. I am excited to see how he fares amidst blue's cloning and copying strategies. Although he is strongly aligned with blue devotion, his ability seems like a good compliment to the other five colors - anthem support in white and green, vicious shadows and similar effects in red, and value sac in black and artifact.
Reef worm - similar to master of waves, I am looking forward to this card in conjunction with the aforementioned clone and especially copy abuse. Each creature produced, really sets up a hard to deal with chain reaction. All of the exile removal I packed into mine will finally justify its inclusion.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage - my planeswalker selection has ballooned enormously during my update. Hopefully this general performs well in the superfriends I am envisioning occurring.
Freed from the real - is a card that I have had fantastic luck with in pauper edh, and I hope can make the transition to traditional. I will likely be testing phenax, god of deception over oona, queen of the fae during one of my updates, and am hopeful that freed comes in handy there. It of course also has great applications with kiki jiki and variety of other creatures and effects.
Waste not - I will probably need to beef up my discard suite to better facilitate this, but an inexpensive, and versatile black enchant is enticing to me!
Repercussion - a recent addition to the cube, and one I am anticipating wreaking all sorts of havoc.
Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - a controversial choice, due to perceptions of too high a cmc for the card. In practice and observations of the precons, she is a pretty nifty general, and one I hope will allow G/x decks to grow unexpectedly out of control through board state and cashing out on card draw.
See the unwritten - I cut chord of calling for this as a way of reducing both triple mana symbols and ratcheting back the number of tutors in my cube. I will be keen to see how "look at x top card effects" such as see, dig through time, and tezzeret, agent of bolas perform in this format. Will the density of relevant cards be enough for these to shine?
dreadbore - I was initially dismissive of this card due to sorcery speed, but the recent addition of so many new planeswalkers I feel will necessitate this, as will more "permanent" killers such as banishing light and song of the dryads.
Huntmaster of the fells - recent reports of success with this guy (flipping constantly[/c] have prompted me to add him to my creature-deficient gruul section.
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - probably a controversial inclusion, but one I'm completing out of a desire for > 1 planeswalker for each guild. I am getting close to testing hardened scales as well, due to the glut of hydras and other counter loving cards wizards has been producing as of late.
Deathreap ritual - I am keen to see if this card results in the amount of card draw some users have reported.
Mindcrank - I was somewhat surprised I had never noticed the potential of this card; very low cmc, and benefits greatly off of squabbling between opponents, like edric. It will remain to be seen whether this will attract too much attention to its owner, or may backfire when opponents unleash their own reanimation effects...
Thanks!
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
I'm considering hunted dragon as a possible replacement for hoard-smelter dragon in my own edh cube. HD's CMC, haste, and creature type (kaalia) are all attractive to me, and I don't see that much issue with giving the losing-est opponent some tokens to speed bump the other players. I could see the hunted cycle working well with Æther Flash, pyroclasm, and pyrohemia, which I know a few cubes run.
Thanks!
For reference -
hunted dragon
hunted horror
hunted lammasu
hunted phantasm
hunted troll
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Works great on Phenax if you get devotion to turn him on, as you can pump your toughness huge and then untap to get a ton of cards milled at once.
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"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
But ultimately, they're just fatties, and don't do anything super interesting, so I'm not drawn to play them.
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How is Hunted Horror anything BUT interesting? He's not "just a fatty." He's a 13/13 Trampler spread across 3 bodies for 2 mana. He's Entomb + Exhume except you don't need the Entomb and GY hate is useless. Assuming that some people in your circle do adopt a "I don't mess with people who don't mess with me/who help me" mentality then the card is frikkin' busted. Clearly he won't work for everyone but I've played with throngs of newer players in my hayday and a huge % of them don't like to rustle any feathers if they can help it. I refuse to believe that no one out there regularly plays with less-seasoned adversaries who wouldn't behave similarly. Obviously a big dork won't close a multiplayer game out but that doesn't mean that it won't put you in a strong position to win. I've used that card (and ones similar to it) to cheese some of the stronger players at the table out (you have 1 turn to answer it or you're basically screwed; even if you don't die immediately the incidental damage will finish you off shortly) at which point it was just me vs people who I knew that I was better than.
Hunted Phantasm is similar except I don't think there's any significant risk with respect to playing it. The card is a ginormous wall and giving someone chump blockers rarely has significant negative consequences in my experience. Blue (in general) doesn't have much meat at lower CMCs which means that you can often get run over by the Green/White/Red decks. This card is a "Fog bank" early on if needed but it's also a legitimate beatstick for when you need to take someone down. I refuse to draft cards that I would actively put in my opponents' decks (given the option) which means that things like Propaganda and Fog Bank are no-gos (and I have no idea how people make those things work). Phantasm is nice because it's something at sub 4 CMC that can legitimately dissuade attacks without being a useless, do-nothing piece of crap wall. Blue clearly has other options, it's not the only playable card or anything, but there's only so many Callous Oppressors that you can play without taking a ton of pressure.
Hunted Dragon has been stellar for me. I think that "Wildfires" are some of the best Red win conditions in the game and so any cheap threats that can survive them are aces in my mind. Your top picks are Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Wildfire, Burning of Xinye, Destructive Force, etc. so cards like these are "free kills" that can easily take a player out before they can answer it.
Hunted Lammasu was "fine" but then power-creep happened and now 4 CMC is filled with nothing but all-upside bombs like Hero of Bladehold. I don't dislike the card, I do think that it's underrated (a 4/4 just sits around and threatens blocks) but ultimately it's just not what most White decks need. The real problem with this card is that "good stuffs White" isn't really an archetype because White is worse than 3 of the other colors. If you're not building something synergistic and/or unfair you're not going to win value wars against Blue/Black/Green decks so you kinds of need to slant your Cubes to support things like Enchantress, Stax, Token, etc. as opposed to simply running good cards. These kinds of cards are the first to go if you need to make room for, oh, say, Sphere of Safety.
Hunted Troll is just garbage. It's the card that sits around and blocks while your opponent gets in for free damage in the air. The card is complete trash and shouldn't be played.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
A) People don't always drink the Kool-aid. If you give me two 3/3 pro blacks but start terrorizing the board with a 7/7 trample on turn two, those 3/3's are probably headed your way
B) Fat creatures with no other abilities aren't really exciting. Sure, I get to beat down some, but it's going to take 18 hits of a 7/7 to kill 3 people from 40, meaning it's hardly a fast clock on its own. If he gave YOU the tokens, he'd be more exciting because of the token abuse potential, but you can't really take his BCS (the person you give the tokens to follows your lead) to be gospel truth, especially when you CAN'T actually do any of the usual token abuse stuff with him.
C) Wrath effects are super common in EDH. If all your fatty did was get in some damage before being swept, it's generally not worthwhile.
I know this is another schism of Multiplayer vs EDH Cube, but that's how I see it.
I wouldn't run Serra Ascendant if it didn't also gain you life, and he's a 6/6 flying for W.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
What I like with this card, is that it forces people to react. You can't just ignore 13 power on turn 2. It is also a pretty good follow up play to a wrath since you put the pressure back up for 2 mana.
The obvious downside is that turn 2, you don't know where the tokens will go, but in my experience, they generally don't come back to your face very often. Later in the game, you should have a good idea of what is to come.
I also like that you can help out the random mana-screwed opponent so he has some fun at least.
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - I'm not going to scramble for this one until its hype price comes down a bit, but this will likely replace eldrazi conscription in my edh cube. No real downsides to the card at all.
Dragonscale General - will watch as potential support for tokens, counters, voltron support; might be too win more, but I imagine you can make your tokens quite large off attacking a prostrate opponent.
Soulfire Grand Master - I've started running a lore seeker-only draft pack of tri-color cards in my cube. This will probably replace flying crane technique, but again, no rush to grab this one at its prerelease price.
Monastery Mentor - would like to test for token/durdle archetype support; in no rush to acquire though, depending on standard/modern inflated price point.
Monastery Siege - This is interesting to me as a utility enchant, fetchable with Zur. I might test it, although in exchange for what, I am uncertain.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest - I will likely test this as a replacement for either Numot or Ruhan. Numot is a favorite whipping dragon around here, but I'm leaning on taking out Ruhan, as having Shu Yun and Ruhan strikes me as a too much voltron in that wedge.
Supplant Form - neat card I'll be watching, but I don't think it has a place in my cube right now; I'm already saturated with clones in mine, and have been in the process of actually cutting down that department. Instant speed on this guy might make lead to backbreaking plays off of it.
Torrent Elemental - interesting, except I like villainous wealth more in the BUG slot of my lore seeker pack.
Archfiend of Depravity - surefire replacement for Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. Crippling against certain deck types, assuming you can protect the demon.
Palace Siege - will watch, but a doubtful inclusion.
Soulflayer - will likely test in the place of mortivore or some other high CMC demon in my cube.
Flamerush Rider - very interested, will likely test over some 6+ cmc red card.
Flamewake Phoenix - will watch. Seems a little on the weak side, but I'm hungry for good red 3 drops in my cube. I imagine that there might be some good altar shenanigans available via this creature. Not sure if the combat-only resurrection clause might subvert its abuse potential though.
Shaman of the Great Hunt - no rush, but probable replacement for guided passage in my lore seeker pack.
Frontier Siege - will watch, but this is not at the front of the line for green priority replacements
Shamanic Revelation - watching closely, especially if I continue to push forward with cutting tutors in favor of top decking.
Whisperwood Elemental - very interesting card. I may test it if a copy falls in my lap, but no immediate plans. Neat card and I'm sure in the right hands can really produce some novel interactions and board states.
Dromoka, the Eternal, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, + the U/W dragon - unless reforged and dragons of tarkir produce some really insane non-red dragon options, I can't see any of these making their way into my generals section.
Lots of great stuff in this set, but strangely very little of it is "must have."
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: Like Dolono, once this becomes affordable, I want it!
Monastery Mentor: Seems like a nice little engine, that only costs 3 mana.
Soulfire Grand Master: This guy does a lot of work for a 2 drop. Sadly another mythic!
Archfiend of Depravity: Doubt this guy will survive for long, but if he does he can do serious damage to a board.
Brutal Hordechief: Goes perfectly in a tokens deck to add some reach and the ability can be a fun way to mess combat between 2 opponents.
Outpost Siege: I don't really like the card, but that's how bad red card draw is...
Shaman of the Great Hunt: I like this guy, but I think he might be slow for a regular MP cube. Will test it anyways since it serves as an anthem and repeatable card draw is always sweet.
Shamanic Revelation: I like the combination of lifegain and card draw, but this does nothing after a wrath where you need the gas to recover. I could be wrong, but I don't think this cuts it.
Whisperwood Elemental: I love wrath protection and this does a good job at it, so I will definitely test it.
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Also, I've been analyzing my cube and have made a few changes. I'm still on the fence about a few in each section. First off, black:
I feel like 45 of the 47 cards are locked in or close, but I have 2 I'm unsure about.
Skirsdag High Priest
Abyssal Persecutor/Desecration Demon
I am considering the following as potential replacements:
- Bloodchief Ascension: Can take over a game, but also draws a lot of hate your way. Mediocre top deck later as well.
- Wight of Precinct Six: Cheap beater, but that's all he is. Plus he isn't really a 2 drop.
- Falkenrath Noble: Can make it rough to wrath you and offsets black life loss. Stats are pretty bad though for a 4 drop.
So what do you think? I'm open to other suggestions I might have missed.
Thanks!
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
Coffin Queen is a classic that I don't see on your cube list.
Black Sun's Zenith is super cheap now, due to over reprinting in commander products. I think that's a must have, IMO.
If you're tempted by cards like bloodchief ascension, I think you'll need global discard effects to help rack up the counters. Consider bottomless pit, necrogen mists, cunning lethemancer, and oppression. Before I'd include ascension, I think I'd also want to try out waste not, which just has a ton of cool modes IF you're able to get one of the aforementioned discard effects to stick.
-Dolono
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
As for the Ascension it triggers off damage so I don't think I need (or want) to include discard. I see it as an aggro card that adds reach to the deck.
Thanks for the feedback!
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
I'm still not sure he's got a place in my Cube though. I don't run that many Pestilence effects, nor that much black lifegain. There are tons of other black draw for life cards, and they're basically all way more efficient than he is. Shutting off opposing lifegain is also pretty situational.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
As to Miaou's question, I think Bloodchief Ascension is a great stand alone card. I haven't made any conscience decisions to support it and it's frequently great (though admittedly an awful top deck late game). I'm not a fan of Abyssal Persecutor, and Desecration Demon in cube, and I've found Skirsdag High Priest to be underperforming as well and am thinking about replacing it (two extra guys to tap is a lot). There aren't a lot of 4 drops I can think of that you aren't already running, but I'd also recommend Coffin Queen, and Liliana's Specter is pretty good too (and would support Ascension if you went that way). As for two drops, I like Wight of Precinct Six. It costs so little mana, many times you can wrath and then cast it on the same turn for good value.
My 540 card Free-for-All Multiplayer Cube
I would love to put Soulfire Grand Master in, but he doesn't have enough direct damage spells to work with (I believe I'm at ten spells capable of triggering the lifelink, but most of them have a lot of modes or conditions and won't always trigger). That said, buyback is always sweet. I'll see what my playgroup says.
I'm pondering Shamanic Revelation, too. Collective Unconscious was always a good card in my meta, and this is strictly better.
My Stupidly Large Number of Current Decks
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The Multiplayer Power Rankings
Cube: the Gittening (My Multiplayer Cube) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
The N00b Cube (Peasant cube for new players) - MTGS Cube List | @ CubeTutor
-1 Skirsdag High Priest
-1 Abyssal Persecutor
-1 Victimize
+1 Bloodchief Ascension
+1 Wight of Precinct Six
+1 Coffin Queen
I'll bug you guys again later for another color Thanks!
My 450ish 1vs1 cube
Seems like a cute interaction: mardu shadowspear + B to bleed the table a bit. What's your extort suite look like?
Spoilers: Tasigur, the Golden Fang is interesting; I'll probably test this over the disappointing Sidisi. Damia and mimeoplasm still aren't going anywhere though.
"Personally I love high-riak, low-reqars gambles. Life's best with a decent amount of riak. And f*** reqars."
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!