There are two or maybe three cubeworthy ways to untap it, and it won't ever see maindeck play without access to at least two others in the same deck. It's trash.
Just no. I wouldn't put this in a deck unless I had at least three enablers in the same deck as Vault. Better yet the whole cube. I would want 5-6 enablers at 360, and that would be if I was drafting 6+ players in each event.
I'd be more comfortable playing those drafted decks with something besides Time Vault/Key in them, until they can go into a deck that has a huge percent chance of going infinite with Vault every time it's drawn, which probably requires somewhere around 4 enablers in the same deck as it.
So even the nut Time Vault deck with every piece in the cube in it (if you support 3 untap pieces) still fails more times than it succeeds.
Now, when the number in the cube goes up to ~6, so the number in my deck can go to ~4-5 + tutors, things look a lot better. With Vault + 5 combo pieces + 1 Tutor, It at least goes up to 52%, so it works more than half the time. That seems a bit more reasonable to me.
TL;DR- I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
You’re still standing firm on these quotes and numbers ?
Yep. The card is just as terrible as it was a couple months ago.
Just because it worked some of the times it was streamed on MTGO doesn't mean it's a good cube card. For each success we witnessed, it was probably an utter failure 10x as many times. We don't see all the players holding Time Vault in their hands when they die, or taking the card over spells that are actually good and having it be worthless in their draft. Or the number of times it is drawn without enablers or vice versa. I would wager that it's lost more games for people that have drafted it on MTGO than it's won, and that would correlate perfectly with my hands-on experiences drafting it in my cube. I witnessed other streamers (pros too, like LSV) lose games where they've drawn half the combo just as many times as I've seen the combo win games because it was properly assembled or they lucked into it. But those moments aren't as memorable and flashy, and we don't watch the videos of all the other MTGO players that have had the Vault draft cost them tix. Still a complete for me.
Just because it worked some of the times it was streamed on MTGO doesn't mean it's a good cube card. For each success we witnessed, it was probably an utter failure 10x as many times.
So you think when LSV and other pros describe Time Vault as being one of the best, if not the very best card in the entire cube, they're actually losing with it 10x more than they win with it?
Am I reading this right?
Also, because you're sticking with your numbers, could you tell me which ones they are?
I'd be more comfortable playing those drafted decks with something besides Time Vault/Key in them, until they can go into a deck that has a huge percent chance of going infinite with Vault every time it's drawn, which probably requires somewhere around 4 enablers in the same deck as it.
5 enablers! 5 in the same deck... No, it would depend on the number of tutors paired with the combo, I suppose. It can be successful with just 1 way to untap it, but it won't be very consistent. 2 would make it better. 3 would be better than that. So we can split the difference and say 2 and a tutor or 1 and 2 tutors? That would be pretty close, I think.
I have watched pros fail with the card too. They don't just auto-win with it every time they try and use the card.
And for better drafters, the ratio of wins to losses will be better than the average cube drafter, mainly because they know when not to play the card. Which is more often than not. What I was saying, is that for each successful draft the card has, there are probably 10 times where it went through a draft and didn't accomplish anything for anyone at the table.
We should definitely agree to disagree. I think the card is terrible. You don't.
It would depend on the number of tutors paired with the combo, I suppose. It can be successful with just 1 way to untap it, but it won't be very consistent. 2 would make it better. 3 would be better than that. So we can split the difference and say 2 and a tutor or 1 and 2 tutors? That would be pretty close, I think.
In decks that have 3 ways to untap Vault (either by raw draw or Tutor) Time Vault is still a completely dead card more than half the times you draw it. It's not until you have 6 or more Tutors/Untap pieces that the number reaches 66% that Vault will be paired with something of value. Oh, and that's assuming that Vault is actually seeded into your opening hand.
Now, when the number in the cube goes up to ~6, so the number in my deck can go to ~4-5 + tutors, things look a lot better. With Vault + 5 combo pieces + 1 Tutor, It at least goes up to 52%, so it works more than half the time. That seems a bit more reasonable to me.
TL;DR- I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
These numbers seem way different than the ones you just quoted.
TL;DR- I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
But now that I'm at 450 again, the math changes a little bit. It looks like Vault + 5 + a Tutor provided math where you can win a game with the combo more than half the times you shuffle it up. That requires a lot more pieces at the cube size I'm at now.
The modo cube uses 4 enablers: Ral Zarek, Tezzeret the Seeker, Voltaic Key, and Kiora's Follower along with Time Vault in a 540 card cube. This is 5 total combo pieces (Time Vault + 4 enablers) in a 540 card cube.
Quote from wtwlf123 »
I'll replay the combo when there are more enablers, because the math simply doesn't support combo viability at 360 with only 3 enablers, even when the nut deck is drafted with 8 players.
4 total combo pieces (TV + 3 enablers) in a 360 is actually a higher ratio than what the MODO cube had. If my math is right...
5/540 = 0.009259
4/360 = 0.011111
It would actually be stronger at 360 than at 540 due to auxiliary support, like a higher chance of opening and being passed tutors, in addition to combo pieces.
However, I can tell you beyond math, and using my own personal years of experience, that your math is wrong. You can actually hear expert witnesses on why your numbers are wrong. LSV said Time Vault was the best card in the MODO Holiday cube. Other cube managers that have actually have played the card have vouched for its power level.
You haven't even tested it since Ral Zarek was released. I guess you'd rather use your own abstract guesswork rather than looking at testimonials or data. In addition to everyone on this thread who has vouched for Time Vault's power level, I can also present data from the MODO 2014 holiday cube on Cubetutor, which has Time Vault as the #11 most drafted card.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
-------
For those of you who don't want to include Time Vault because it's a two-card combo win, -- I feel you guys. I personally don't really like Time Vault or Kiki-Jiki because the actual wins just feel cheesy. It's the same reason I wouldn't include Contract From Below if I were playing with ante cards.
However, to say that the card isn't good enough on power level merit is just fallacy.
LSV said Time Vault was the best card in the MODO Holiday cube.
That's fine. He's said a lot of things about the cube I don't agree with. I love LSV, and he's a fantastic Magic player. However, the guy enjoys his hyperbole even more than I do. He's said that Freyalise is a great cube card and said that Land Tax is terrible. I respect him as a Magic player, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every one of his opinions regarding the cube.
I can also present data from the MODO 2014 holiday cube on Cubetutor
That's all well and good, but I don't consider the draft rankings on cubetutor to be of any particular value. There are a lot of insane cards that get picked really low by the average cubetutor user, and a lot of bad cards that are taken really highly. Even in my own cube, Library of Alexandria is pretty far down on the list, despite it being the best card in the cube.
Other cube managers that have actually have played the card have vouched for its power level.
Again, there are also a lot of cube managers who have played it and don't like it for the cube.
The modo cube uses 4 enablers:
Two things here: First, I've seen it succeed AND fail on MODO streams. Not every Vault attempt is a success story. Second, the MODO cube and the cubes I play are very different. That environment is significantly slower and applies a lot less early pressure than my cube. That makes decks running Vault more successful, because they have significantly more time to durdle around and assemble the combo. My experience with the card (IRL and on MODO) are that it gets run over by good decks unless they get lucky and can steal the occasional "oops I win" moment.
..........
I'm glad you have had success with the card, and it's awesome that there are draft videos out there with it working. But I've seen just as much first-hand evidence that the card fails more times than it succeeds, and we have no videos out there of it completely failing to do anything of value. I've watched those same pro streamers crush people trying to run the Vault deck too, using a better set of 40 cards. So while it's perfectly capable of winning games, I don't think it's a good cube card because it fails to do so with consistency, in addition to simply being a polarizing and unfun effect. So again, we'll have to agree to disagree.
The last draft I played for this past holday cube was a first pick Time Vault deck. And while I was only able to snag Tezz 1.0 as an enabler, I still won two matches with each win coming from the combo (granted Tinker helped too). The deck was mostly just a U/b control shell. I think the analogy to Twin combo is pretty apt. IMHO the question boils down to whether you're okay playing Key or Kiora's Follower. Keeping with the Twin analogy, Pestermite and Spinter Twin are still respectable, if not always spectacular cards on their own, in and outside the deck. The added bonus of Mite and Twin is both of them can provide legit milage if you need to switch gears and forgo the combo; Key and, to a lesser extent Follower don't provide you with nearly as much in emergency situations.
The funny thing is, I am actually considering playing this card despite only having two natural enablers in Ral and Tezz 1.0, and a big cube. My playgroup has been asking me about Storm for a while now and this may be a way of placating them without including a bunch of subpar cards.
There is also the added benefit of making Pestermite/Conscripts a little bit better because of their interaction with Dead-Eye Navigator and Venser, the Sojourner to untap the Vault.
I still run Pestermite and Kiki-Jiki but cut the other pieces. These two guys were grabbed by other decks as well as the twin decks, whereas the others were only being taken by the twin decks. Pestermite has actually played quite well for us in control and tempo. And everyone here just loves Kiki-Jiki .
I've run the time vault/key combo to great success in my cube.
Passed it's trial run with flying colors.
HOWEVER, I don't particularly like the interaction it brings to cube.
A lot of decks have difficulty interacting it, and in the right deck it's almost too powerful.
I keep it in my cube cause it's something powerful and different, but it doesn't add much strategically.
I skimmed the argument, but assembling the pieces with Ral zarek, tezzeret , voltaic key and kiora's follower in my 465+ is pretty consistent. Kiora's follower rarely gets in the deck too...
Voltaic key almost always wheels to the time vault drafter. Since we are playing 8 mans consistantly, there's a high chance that key will be in the cube. (360/465 cards will be in every cube)
For the times voltaic key is in pack 1 (and goes last pick), but time vault is in pack 3, it's pretty common for vault to wheel in pack 3 to the player who is drafting artifacts (who likely has tezzeret and/or ral zarek).
I'd say 50% of drafts there's someone who "assembles" some sort of time vault combo... It's often one of the more powerful decks too.
We are running a high buyin cube rotisserie draft for my cube very soon.. Good friend of mine who's picking second thinks he'g going to pick time vault second over lotus/sol-ring.
You guys are all like, "Hey look at me use maths in my cube arguments and blah blah blah" and I'm all like, "Bros I just want to cast some fun cards and play whatever the **** I want".
Cube isn't some universal "you must play or include this card" kind of a thing. Put in what you want in your cube. It's your own little island of ridiculous money sink-age that you can go hog wild with however way pleases you the most.
By that logic, why discuss any cards at all? We're not here to stop anyone from putting anything in their Cubes; we're debating on the merits of any particular card or cards, weighted against other inclusions and considerations.
In my opinion Time Vault is definitely a viable Cube card, but only for a limited number of Cubes.
Let me explain. If you're thinking of including Time Vault in your list, you should ask yourself (and your playgroup!) the following questions:
1) Time Vault creates a specific dynamic in game play. Because the combo wins the game instantly regardless of the board state, and is pretty hard (though not impossible) to disrupt both during setup and once it's assembled, the combo player spends his time drawing cards and tutoring until he finds and plays the combo, or until the opponent kills him, whichever comes first, with little interaction between the players. Sometimes the former will happen on a very early turn, resulting in a game where the opponent had actually zero percent chance to win. Other times the combo player will fail to draw the pieces and will die without offering meaningful resistance. Still other times the combo player will find and play the final piece the turn before dying, and the entire game will come down to whether the opponent has a counterspell or a disenchant.
Are you okay with this dynamic in a portion of your Cube games? If the answer is no, don't include Time Vault. If yes, go to the next question.
2) Time Vault requires a number of "enablers" to be in your list, i.e. cards that combo with it to create infinite turns. The value of the enablers vary between "Cube staple" (Ral Zarek), "strong card if a particular archetype is supported" (Tezzeret the Seeker), "card that is useful in a wide range of situations, but generally too weak for Cube standards" (Kiora's Follower), and "generally weak card with some non-Time Vault applications" (Voltaic Key). You should probably play at least 3 in small lists (450 cards or less) and at least for in larger lists, meaning that there will be at least one card in your list (not counting Time Vault itself) that you'd otherwise not include.
Are you okay with including several cards in your list that are only playable in conjunction with each other, or do you put a high value on cards being playable in a wide variety of situations and decks? In the latter case, don't include Time Vault. In the former case, go to the next question.
3) Time Vault creates a particular dynamic in the draft phase as well, especially in situations where not the entire Cube is drafted. Drafters may take one of the pieces early (presumably Time Vault itself) and never get the others (because someone else was trying the same thing, due to hate drafts, or because the cards simply weren't in the draft to begin with). If that drafter was focusing too much on the combo, he or she may end up with an unplayable deck. On the other hand, the pieces may be opened very late in the draft, when no one is in a position to take advantage of them, resulting in effectively dead cards in the draft. The counterargument is that the same dynamic is present with many archetype-specific cards in the Cube, and that knowing when to give up on an early pick is part of good drafting strategy.
Do you have a problem with the dynamic explained here? Then don't play Time Vault. Or are you more convinced by the counterargument? Then go to the last question.
4) This last part is a synthesis of the three preceding questions. Time Vault doesn't just require enablers, it also needs what I would call a "combo-friendly environment". This means a) that your list includes plenty of fast mana, tutoring, card selection, and mass card drawing, so that combos come together somewhat consistently in-game (this incidentally means that you should probably be running a fully-powered Vintage list), b) since other (non-Time Vault) combos also profit from those effects, you should be more willing to include them as well (could be Twin, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Artifacts.dec, or several others) and c) that your list should probably also include more answers to combo than you'd otherwise have, particularly in colors that aren't combo-focussed themselves (disenchant effects are the big one, but e.g. White hatebears and targeted discard also have their place).
So if you're thinking about including Time Vault in an otherwise "fair" Cube environment, it's likely too fail (for being too good, too bad or too unfun). If your Cube doesn't match these criteria, and you're unwilling to make drastic changes in this direction, don't include Time Vault. If it does or you do, have fun taking extra turns!
I don't think this will "settle" the debate, but hopefully it can take it in a more constructive direction.
I've put Time Vault on my watchlist since this discussion. It's still there, still in my cube. Players still think it's fun to build around it and play it. Maybe I'll change it with Splinter Twin at some point which has still good interactions with some of these enablers, but for now, it stays
I've never notice the triple interaction between either Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Zealous Conscript, Erratic Portal and Time Vault. Thanks for sharing! I'm taking notes. However, Kikki and Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Zealous Conscript duo is already an autowin combo if not answer, so no need to mix it with Time Vault. Seems just like a win-more pattern.
About supporting the combo, I am since several months now and still enjoy very much. UR Time Vault is definitly one of my favorite deck to build. FWIW, I also run Voltaic in order to help the combo go off more often. Very cheap way to achieve it. Kiora's Follower is also in.
I like supporting combo in cube, I support three different kinds of infinite combo (Reveillark, Splinter Twin/Kiki-Jiki, Muzzio's Preparations combo), but some of the enablers you're listing are a bit problematic.
Capsize with buyback is 6 mana, plus the mana to recast Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts. Plus, if you already have Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts, you don't need Time Vault to go infinite.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
465 card Unpowered cube thread. Draft it here and I'll be happy to return the favor.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
I know some of the 3 card combo's are farfetched and certainly with Kiki-Jiki, you probably win that turn with the regalur combo. Just pointing out how many good cards in my cube already enable the combo, without voltaic key. I don't want to run Voltaic Key cause that card, like Time Vault, is useless on its own. But it's a choice, since players have to commit to drafting combo then.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Retired DCI Level 2 Judge
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
Voltaic Key isn't completly useless out of Time Vault's shells. It can untap 2 mana and more artifact and also gives pseudo vigilance to your artifact threat. It also gives another activation for your utility artifacts once a turn. I agree that it's not that great, but definitly not a dead card.
I hate infinite combo, but I have decided to add Vault just to see how the players like it - if they even notice the combos on their own. I am sure they will, but it beats trying to add the storm deck they keep asking me for.
I am planning to try out the Kiki-Jiki/Twin combo with the usual untap enablers.
To further support combo, I am considering to add Time Vault + Voltaic Key as Time Vault adds a Time Walk effect to Pestermite/Deceiver/Conscripts.
Do you think this would be a good idea? Are there any other better combos or synergies to add along with Kiki-combo?
As for other (not related to Kiki-Jiki) combo's: My cube had the Orim's Chant / Isochron Scepter combo. No one ever played it.
I have won a few games on the popular Channel / Fireball combo
It still has the Reveillark + Body Double + sac outlet + any enter or leave trigger on a creature combo that is somtimes assembled because all the cards are good on their own as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Retired DCI Level 2 Judge
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
Body Double isn't what I would call a traditionnal cube card, but is still one the strongest and well-known card of that unique combo.
However, you can always enable the 'Llark combo with other staple pieces. Reveillark, Venser, Shaper Savant, Greater Gargadon and either Phantasmal Image or Phyrexian Metamorph also do the trick. With a suspended GG, you can cast 'Llark, manage to copy it, play Venser and then sac it and 'Llark's copy to bring them back, sac them to bring them back, sac them to bring them back, etc. Untill GG is cast and bounce like 3 to 4 permanents your opponent control with Venser ETB triggered.
It just reinforced what you already knew about the card?
What about these quotes: (emphasis in bold and orange mine)
You’re still standing firm on these quotes and numbers ?
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Just because it worked some of the times it was streamed on MTGO doesn't mean it's a good cube card. For each success we witnessed, it was probably an utter failure 10x as many times. We don't see all the players holding Time Vault in their hands when they die, or taking the card over spells that are actually good and having it be worthless in their draft. Or the number of times it is drawn without enablers or vice versa. I would wager that it's lost more games for people that have drafted it on MTGO than it's won, and that would correlate perfectly with my hands-on experiences drafting it in my cube. I witnessed other streamers (pros too, like LSV) lose games where they've drawn half the combo just as many times as I've seen the combo win games because it was properly assembled or they lucked into it. But those moments aren't as memorable and flashy, and we don't watch the videos of all the other MTGO players that have had the Vault draft cost them tix. Still a complete for me.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
So you think when LSV and other pros describe Time Vault as being one of the best, if not the very best card in the entire cube, they're actually losing with it 10x more than they win with it?
Am I reading this right?
Also, because you're sticking with your numbers, could you tell me which ones they are?
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
I have watched pros fail with the card too. They don't just auto-win with it every time they try and use the card.
And for better drafters, the ratio of wins to losses will be better than the average cube drafter, mainly because they know when not to play the card. Which is more often than not. What I was saying, is that for each successful draft the card has, there are probably 10 times where it went through a draft and didn't accomplish anything for anyone at the table.
We should definitely agree to disagree. I think the card is terrible. You don't.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I think you're moving the goalposts.
These numbers seem way different than the ones you just quoted.
I'm asking about statements you made, I'm not even presenting arguments for the card.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
But now that I'm at 450 again, the math changes a little bit. It looks like Vault + 5 + a Tutor provided math where you can win a game with the combo more than half the times you shuffle it up. That requires a lot more pieces at the cube size I'm at now.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
We have data that proves your math is wrong.
The modo cube uses 4 enablers: Ral Zarek, Tezzeret the Seeker, Voltaic Key, and Kiora's Follower along with Time Vault in a 540 card cube. This is 5 total combo pieces (Time Vault + 4 enablers) in a 540 card cube.
4 total combo pieces (TV + 3 enablers) in a 360 is actually a higher ratio than what the MODO cube had. If my math is right...
5/540 = 0.009259
4/360 = 0.011111
It would actually be stronger at 360 than at 540 due to auxiliary support, like a higher chance of opening and being passed tutors, in addition to combo pieces.
However, I can tell you beyond math, and using my own personal years of experience, that your math is wrong. You can actually hear expert witnesses on why your numbers are wrong. LSV said Time Vault was the best card in the MODO Holiday cube. Other cube managers that have actually have played the card have vouched for its power level.
You haven't even tested it since Ral Zarek was released. I guess you'd rather use your own abstract guesswork rather than looking at testimonials or data. In addition to everyone on this thread who has vouched for Time Vault's power level, I can also present data from the MODO 2014 holiday cube on Cubetutor, which has Time Vault as the #11 most drafted card.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
-------
For those of you who don't want to include Time Vault because it's a two-card combo win, -- I feel you guys. I personally don't really like Time Vault or Kiki-Jiki because the actual wins just feel cheesy. It's the same reason I wouldn't include Contract From Below if I were playing with ante cards.
However, to say that the card isn't good enough on power level merit is just fallacy.
CUBE TOP 10 - Help us vote for the best cards in cube
Again, I have experience with the card too.
That's fine. He's said a lot of things about the cube I don't agree with. I love LSV, and he's a fantastic Magic player. However, the guy enjoys his hyperbole even more than I do. He's said that Freyalise is a great cube card and said that Land Tax is terrible. I respect him as a Magic player, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with every one of his opinions regarding the cube.
That's all well and good, but I don't consider the draft rankings on cubetutor to be of any particular value. There are a lot of insane cards that get picked really low by the average cubetutor user, and a lot of bad cards that are taken really highly. Even in my own cube, Library of Alexandria is pretty far down on the list, despite it being the best card in the cube.
Again, there are also a lot of cube managers who have played it and don't like it for the cube.
Two things here: First, I've seen it succeed AND fail on MODO streams. Not every Vault attempt is a success story. Second, the MODO cube and the cubes I play are very different. That environment is significantly slower and applies a lot less early pressure than my cube. That makes decks running Vault more successful, because they have significantly more time to durdle around and assemble the combo. My experience with the card (IRL and on MODO) are that it gets run over by good decks unless they get lucky and can steal the occasional "oops I win" moment.
..........
I'm glad you have had success with the card, and it's awesome that there are draft videos out there with it working. But I've seen just as much first-hand evidence that the card fails more times than it succeeds, and we have no videos out there of it completely failing to do anything of value. I've watched those same pro streamers crush people trying to run the Vault deck too, using a better set of 40 cards. So while it's perfectly capable of winning games, I don't think it's a good cube card because it fails to do so with consistency, in addition to simply being a polarizing and unfun effect. So again, we'll have to agree to disagree.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
The funny thing is, I am actually considering playing this card despite only having two natural enablers in Ral and Tezz 1.0, and a big cube. My playgroup has been asking me about Storm for a while now and this may be a way of placating them without including a bunch of subpar cards.
There is also the added benefit of making Pestermite/Conscripts a little bit better because of their interaction with Dead-Eye Navigator and Venser, the Sojourner to untap the Vault.
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
Passed it's trial run with flying colors.
HOWEVER, I don't particularly like the interaction it brings to cube.
A lot of decks have difficulty interacting it, and in the right deck it's almost too powerful.
I keep it in my cube cause it's something powerful and different, but it doesn't add much strategically.
I skimmed the argument, but assembling the pieces with Ral zarek, tezzeret , voltaic key and kiora's follower in my 465+ is pretty consistent. Kiora's follower rarely gets in the deck too...
Voltaic key almost always wheels to the time vault drafter. Since we are playing 8 mans consistantly, there's a high chance that key will be in the cube. (360/465 cards will be in every cube)
For the times voltaic key is in pack 1 (and goes last pick), but time vault is in pack 3, it's pretty common for vault to wheel in pack 3 to the player who is drafting artifacts (who likely has tezzeret and/or ral zarek).
I'd say 50% of drafts there's someone who "assembles" some sort of time vault combo... It's often one of the more powerful decks too.
We are running a high buyin cube rotisserie draft for my cube very soon.. Good friend of mine who's picking second thinks he'g going to pick time vault second over lotus/sol-ring.
Last Updated 02/07/24
Streaming Standard/Cube on Twitch https://www.twitch.tv/heisenb3rg96
Strategy Twitter https://www.twitter.com/heisenb3rg
Cube isn't some universal "you must play or include this card" kind of a thing. Put in what you want in your cube. It's your own little island of ridiculous money sink-age that you can go hog wild with however way pleases you the most.
vvv Things just seemed a little heated, is all.
My 540 Powered CubeTutor Page
Check out the Cube Discord channel here
Let me explain. If you're thinking of including Time Vault in your list, you should ask yourself (and your playgroup!) the following questions:
1) Time Vault creates a specific dynamic in game play. Because the combo wins the game instantly regardless of the board state, and is pretty hard (though not impossible) to disrupt both during setup and once it's assembled, the combo player spends his time drawing cards and tutoring until he finds and plays the combo, or until the opponent kills him, whichever comes first, with little interaction between the players. Sometimes the former will happen on a very early turn, resulting in a game where the opponent had actually zero percent chance to win. Other times the combo player will fail to draw the pieces and will die without offering meaningful resistance. Still other times the combo player will find and play the final piece the turn before dying, and the entire game will come down to whether the opponent has a counterspell or a disenchant.
Are you okay with this dynamic in a portion of your Cube games? If the answer is no, don't include Time Vault. If yes, go to the next question.
2) Time Vault requires a number of "enablers" to be in your list, i.e. cards that combo with it to create infinite turns. The value of the enablers vary between "Cube staple" (Ral Zarek), "strong card if a particular archetype is supported" (Tezzeret the Seeker), "card that is useful in a wide range of situations, but generally too weak for Cube standards" (Kiora's Follower), and "generally weak card with some non-Time Vault applications" (Voltaic Key). You should probably play at least 3 in small lists (450 cards or less) and at least for in larger lists, meaning that there will be at least one card in your list (not counting Time Vault itself) that you'd otherwise not include.
Are you okay with including several cards in your list that are only playable in conjunction with each other, or do you put a high value on cards being playable in a wide variety of situations and decks? In the latter case, don't include Time Vault. In the former case, go to the next question.
3) Time Vault creates a particular dynamic in the draft phase as well, especially in situations where not the entire Cube is drafted. Drafters may take one of the pieces early (presumably Time Vault itself) and never get the others (because someone else was trying the same thing, due to hate drafts, or because the cards simply weren't in the draft to begin with). If that drafter was focusing too much on the combo, he or she may end up with an unplayable deck. On the other hand, the pieces may be opened very late in the draft, when no one is in a position to take advantage of them, resulting in effectively dead cards in the draft. The counterargument is that the same dynamic is present with many archetype-specific cards in the Cube, and that knowing when to give up on an early pick is part of good drafting strategy.
Do you have a problem with the dynamic explained here? Then don't play Time Vault. Or are you more convinced by the counterargument? Then go to the last question.
4) This last part is a synthesis of the three preceding questions. Time Vault doesn't just require enablers, it also needs what I would call a "combo-friendly environment". This means a) that your list includes plenty of fast mana, tutoring, card selection, and mass card drawing, so that combos come together somewhat consistently in-game (this incidentally means that you should probably be running a fully-powered Vintage list), b) since other (non-Time Vault) combos also profit from those effects, you should be more willing to include them as well (could be Twin, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak & Show, Artifacts.dec, or several others) and c) that your list should probably also include more answers to combo than you'd otherwise have, particularly in colors that aren't combo-focussed themselves (disenchant effects are the big one, but e.g. White hatebears and targeted discard also have their place).
So if you're thinking about including Time Vault in an otherwise "fair" Cube environment, it's likely too fail (for being too good, too bad or too unfun). If your Cube doesn't match these criteria, and you're unwilling to make drastic changes in this direction, don't include Time Vault. If it does or you do, have fun taking extra turns!
I don't think this will "settle" the debate, but hopefully it can take it in a more constructive direction.
A Comprehensive list of Cube Archetypes
My enablers are:
2 card combo
Ral Zarek
Tezzeret the Seeker
3 card combo (needs 1 of card A and 1 of card B
card A:
Capsize
Erratic Portal
Crystal Shard
Waterfront Bouncer
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
card B:
Pestermite
Zealous Conscripts
I have only once seen a 3 card combo close the game but it's there..
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeAbout supporting the combo, I am since several months now and still enjoy very much. UR Time Vault is definitly one of my favorite deck to build. FWIW, I also run Voltaic in order to help the combo go off more often. Very cheap way to achieve it. Kiora's Follower is also in.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Capsize with buyback is 6 mana, plus the mana to recast Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts. Plus, if you already have Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite or Zealous Conscripts, you don't need Time Vault to go infinite.
450 card Peasant cube thread. Draft it here.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeZetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
Sweet decklist featuring this package : http://www.cubetutor.com/cubedeck/415980
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method
A pet card of mine, but they also work with Deadeye Navigator. Untapping with this guy in play is yet another portal to Magical Christmas Land.
Etali, Primal Storm EDH
To further support combo, I am considering to add Time Vault + Voltaic Key as Time Vault adds a Time Walk effect to Pestermite/Deceiver/Conscripts.
Do you think this would be a good idea? Are there any other better combos or synergies to add along with Kiki-combo?
As for other (not related to Kiki-Jiki) combo's: My cube had the Orim's Chant / Isochron Scepter combo. No one ever played it.
I have won a few games on the popular Channel / Fireball combo
It still has the Reveillark + Body Double + sac outlet + any enter or leave trigger on a creature combo that is somtimes assembled because all the cards are good on their own as well.
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
My
540> 360 Powered CubeHowever, you can always enable the 'Llark combo with other staple pieces. Reveillark, Venser, Shaper Savant, Greater Gargadon and either Phantasmal Image or Phyrexian Metamorph also do the trick. With a suspended GG, you can cast 'Llark, manage to copy it, play Venser and then sac it and 'Llark's copy to bring them back, sac them to bring them back, sac them to bring them back, etc. Untill GG is cast and bounce like 3 to 4 permanents your opponent control with Venser ETB triggered.
Zetsu's Cube on CubeTutor.com
Zetsu's Ebay MTG Online Store
Zetsu's Poker Draft Method