Lately, I've been considering these two lands more and more. I like the added value they bring to the decks that would play them the most. Additional shuffle effects for Brainstorm/Top/Rack/Jace/Library type of effects can be most needed, and they also have interactions with Loam and Crucible for lots of pain-free lands. I may give them a whorl in my #5 land slots for both Azorius and Dimir over the bouncelands for a while, and see how they do.
I would consider them for EDH if you spent all your cash on shocks/duals and do not have regular fetch lands.
The fact they come into play tapped is the problem. If you just want a shuffle effect, you could use Evolving Wilds as it doesn't come into play tapped (the land you fetch with it does, but if you just want to shuffle/thin...)
I do like them more than bounce lands.
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I already use Expanse and Wilds, and all 10 of the "pain" fetchlands. Shuffle effects are becoming increasingly more valuable, and I was wondering if people had considered playing more than the 12 most cubes currently play. The ETBT clause isn't much of a problem for the decks that would play these two lands, and they'd be replacing existing ETBT lands anyways.
Blue loves shuffle effects and I've never loved the bounce lands because of their variance. These seem like they might work nicely. Keep innovating you crazy diamond!
I play them in my classic cube, and I'm pretty happy with them. I'm already happy with the mana fixing I'm running in my cube currently. In the W/U combination I'm running Dual/Shock/Fetch/Celestial Colonnade. If you're looking for a 5th land, then the Mirage fetchlands could be a viable option.
I played them in my classic cube too. I thought they wouldn't transfer because of the quality of Flooded Strand and the like, but that might have been a rash judgment. Looking forward to rigorous playtesting!
One small benefit to them over Evolving/Terramorphic is that you can see your draw for the turn before deciding which kind of land to search for (assuming you have multiple options to choose from).
I strongly dislike ETB tapped lands, but I can see these being reasonable if you really want the extra shuffle effect. I'd probably run some combination of Vivid or Shard Tri-lands before I'd run these given that they can be run to greater value in more decks.
I strongly dislike ETB tapped lands, but I can see these being reasonable if you really want the extra shuffle effect. I'd probably run some combination of Vivid or Shard Tri-lands before I'd run these given that they can be run to greater value in more decks.
Considering the number of dual lands they grab, I'm not even sure I'd rather have a Vivid or Shard land instead of one of these in a 3+ color deck.
Considering the number of dual lands they grab, I'm not even sure I'd rather have a Vivid or Shard land instead of one of these in a 3+ color deck.
Well, Vivids are more or less 100% playable regardless of other lands. If you draft fetches (off-color), you have to actively pick duals to get full value. I'd have to be pretty heavy into those colors to want to play this over a Vivid. Think of the difference of running U/B in U/B/W VS R/U/w. Even with a couple targets, it gets significantly worse in the wedge deck.
I get the logic to running the two you're running, I just don't know that these are any better than the Wilds/Expanse cycle which are playable in more decks (just like Vivids/Tri-lands).
Well sure. But they're not really comparable lands. I mean, this is an U/B support land. Vivids are 5-color lands that are stolen by all kinds of decks. It doesn't help my U/B fixing to cut Bad River for a Vivid land if it winds up in someone else's pool.
Well sure. But they're not really comparable lands. I mean, this is an U/B support land. Vivids are 5-color lands that are stolen by all kinds of decks. It doesn't help my U/B fixing to cut Bad River for a Vivid land if it winds up in someone else's pool.
You want to run an inferior cycle because they're less likely to get snagged up by other drafters? I'm not sure I can get behind that logic. I mean, all the aforementioned lands skirt the line of playability. I'd rather have a land make the rounds and get picked up on merit and for running a splash color rather than giving your U/B and U/W players a shot at tabling fixing just because other players can't run them.
You want to run an inferior cycle because they're less likely to get snagged up by other drafters? I'm not sure I can get behind that logic. I mean, all the aforementioned lands skirt the line of playability. I'd rather have a land make the rounds and get picked up on merit and for running a splash color rather than giving your U/B and U/W players a shot at tabling fixing just because other players can't run them.
It's not like they take up any different slot than another U/B fixer, you don't run these two in addition to your U/W/B fixing, you run them instead of something like the azorious chancery and dimir aqueduct.
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Don't forget you could always decide to add in a second copy of terramorphic and/or evolving wilds. I don't think you'll find many cries of heresy if those show up in multiples.
It's not like they take up any different slot than another U/B fixer, you don't run these two in addition to your U/W/B fixing, you run them instead of something like the azorious chancery and dimir aqueduct.
I can think of very few reasons to run the Mirage fetchlands over better 3-5 color lands. I sure as well wouldn't be running them unless I had maxed out on the Expanse cycle. If you want to run them just to run a U/B fixer, I'd like to hear how they're better than running the Grixis or Esper Tri-land or U/B Vivid lands. The Mirage land scenario requires you to have another dual to start to get any value, and gets worse as you branch into wedge colors. The Tri-lands and Vivids are better in their primary colors, don't require other lands to be used, and have no downside to fitting into wedge strategies (R/B/W, R/U/G, etc.). If you absolutely just want to support U/B and U/W, then I'd add the Esper Tri-land and something like Urborg or the blue or white Vivid.
I just don't think the shuffle is enough incentive to play these over other options. I didn't like them in the first draft of my list and see no evidence that they would have gotten any better over time due to card mechanics and interactions.
Well sure. But they're not really comparable lands. I mean, this is an U/B support land. Vivids are 5-color lands that are stolen by all kinds of decks. It doesn't help my U/B fixing to cut Bad River for a Vivid land if it winds up in someone else's pool.
I just noticed you aren't running the U/W and U/B Scars lands. Those seem like a mega upgrade to the Mirage fetchlands. For what it's worth, I run all five Scars Fast Lands. They're are very good in non-aggro decks as well. Control decks like to play untapped duals early too!
I wasn't a fan of the Scars fixing lands in my non-aggro decks. It's nice to have the mana early, but it was a bummer to have them be really bad lands after T4. Aggro doesn't care much about that. I'd much rather produce 5 mana with 4 sources via the bouncelands, or get additional shuffle effects and dual tutors with the old-school fetches.
You want to run an inferior cycle because they're less likely to get snagged up by other drafters? I'm not sure I can get behind that logic. I mean, all the aforementioned lands skirt the line of playability. I'd rather have a land make the rounds and get picked up on merit and for running a splash color rather than giving your U/B and U/W players a shot at tabling fixing just because other players can't run them.
I don't consider them inferior. They're different. I can't grab dual lands, or shuffle my library with a Vivid land. And the vivid may be better than the fetch in UG, but that's not what I dedicate BU fixing lands to be good at.
It's just like everything else in the cube. There may be a different card that's "better" than it intrinsically, but it doesn't mean it's the better or more important card to have in the cube.
Don't forget you could always decide to add in a second copy of terramorphic and/or evolving wilds. I don't think you'll find many cries of heresy if those show up in multiples.
I don't like this idea.
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I can think of very few reasons to run the Mirage fetchlands over better 3-5 color lands.
First off, I don't think they're "better". And I can think of several reasons. 1) They tutor up dual lands, which is a better thing to do than pretty much anything else. 2) They add in an extra critical mass of shuffle effects for your Brainstorm/Top/Rack/Jace/Library effects. 3) It thins the deck of an extra card while increasing your nonland draw percentage, and it also helps Shelldock trigger a turn faster. 4) It supports decks I want to support instead of coincidentally inflating the support for 4-5cc, which is a deck I don't want to saturate with a ton of enablers. 5) I don't want to add in a full cycle of 5-color lands, I want to add in an extra fixing land for WU and UB. 6) The lands are actually good. There's nothing wrong with the fixing they provide or the effects they grant, and being worse than Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta doesn't really mean anything about their performance. They're about as worse in comparison to the onslaught fetches as the shock lands are to the ABU duals, and they're not considered bad lands because of that.
The shuffle effect just isn't enough to justify playing these lands. And their inclusion assumes that every deck that wants these is also taking advantage of their shuffle effect, because if that advantage is not being capitalized on then they are terrible. Even if you assume that the shuffle effect is needed for a Brainstorm, Top, or w/e, I think the ETBT clause doesn't outweigh the upside. They are just going to cause more trouble than they are worth.
I just don't think the shuffle is enough incentive to play these over other options. I didn't like them in the first draft of my list and see no evidence that they would have gotten any better over time due to card mechanics and interactions.
That's where we disagree then, I think that the shuffling is a relevant feature for control decks with cards like top, brainstorm, scroll rack, ponder and the like. Of course testing could prove otherwise, but I always look for shuffle effects when I pick up a top or something and having lands that do that are very nice. 2 more isn't exactly a lot or anything, but it's also good because these will table most of the time, and a shuffle effect on a land that tables could be important in draft.
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I don't anticipate them tabling any more than the bouncelands did. Our initial testing shows them playing better than the bouncelands, actually. The shuffling is relevant, but more importantly, the added fixing it provides with the dual land interaction is huge. In a BUG reanimator deck drafted yesterday, as an example, I had a Tropical Island to go with my Bad River. So it played double duty. I was able to shuffle away after a Scroll Rack activation, and fix all three colors in my deck with one land. That's far more valuable (and less risky) than the upsides I was getting from the bounceland. And that's only one draft. Remember that these lands tutor up 14 dual lands out of the cube. 14. That can't be ignored. If only half the cube makes the draft table, a Flood Plain should have 7 dual land targets floating around in those packs. Future testing may prove them to be less exciting lands than some of the other options, but they're going to be consistent performers that can grab duals, thin decks and shuffle libraries.
I'm not advocating these lands as the best fixers available, but past the Dual/Shock/Fetch/Man land suite, slot #5 is up in the air with a lot of solid options to choose from. It may be worth playtesting them over your current number 5 land to see how they play for your playgroup. The results and opinions on their play here so far have been good.
Flood Plain + Bad River (and others, I guess)
Lately, I've been considering these two lands more and more. I like the added value they bring to the decks that would play them the most. Additional shuffle effects for Brainstorm/Top/Rack/Jace/Library type of effects can be most needed, and they also have interactions with Loam and Crucible for lots of pain-free lands. I may give them a whorl in my #5 land slots for both Azorius and Dimir over the bouncelands for a while, and see how they do.
Thoughts?
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The fact they come into play tapped is the problem. If you just want a shuffle effect, you could use Evolving Wilds as it doesn't come into play tapped (the land you fetch with it does, but if you just want to shuffle/thin...)
I do like them more than bounce lands.
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Considering the number of dual lands they grab, I'm not even sure I'd rather have a Vivid or Shard land instead of one of these in a 3+ color deck.
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I get the logic to running the two you're running, I just don't know that these are any better than the Wilds/Expanse cycle which are playable in more decks (just like Vivids/Tri-lands).
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It's not like they take up any different slot than another U/B fixer, you don't run these two in addition to your U/W/B fixing, you run them instead of something like the azorious chancery and dimir aqueduct.
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I just don't think the shuffle is enough incentive to play these over other options. I didn't like them in the first draft of my list and see no evidence that they would have gotten any better over time due to card mechanics and interactions.
I just noticed you aren't running the U/W and U/B Scars lands. Those seem like a mega upgrade to the Mirage fetchlands. For what it's worth, I run all five Scars Fast Lands. They're are very good in non-aggro decks as well. Control decks like to play untapped duals early too!
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I don't consider them inferior. They're different. I can't grab dual lands, or shuffle my library with a Vivid land. And the vivid may be better than the fetch in UG, but that's not what I dedicate BU fixing lands to be good at.
It's just like everything else in the cube. There may be a different card that's "better" than it intrinsically, but it doesn't mean it's the better or more important card to have in the cube.
I don't like this idea.
First off, I don't think they're "better". And I can think of several reasons. 1) They tutor up dual lands, which is a better thing to do than pretty much anything else. 2) They add in an extra critical mass of shuffle effects for your Brainstorm/Top/Rack/Jace/Library effects. 3) It thins the deck of an extra card while increasing your nonland draw percentage, and it also helps Shelldock trigger a turn faster. 4) It supports decks I want to support instead of coincidentally inflating the support for 4-5cc, which is a deck I don't want to saturate with a ton of enablers. 5) I don't want to add in a full cycle of 5-color lands, I want to add in an extra fixing land for WU and UB. 6) The lands are actually good. There's nothing wrong with the fixing they provide or the effects they grant, and being worse than Flooded Strand/Polluted Delta doesn't really mean anything about their performance. They're about as worse in comparison to the onslaught fetches as the shock lands are to the ABU duals, and they're not considered bad lands because of that.
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That's where we disagree then, I think that the shuffling is a relevant feature for control decks with cards like top, brainstorm, scroll rack, ponder and the like. Of course testing could prove otherwise, but I always look for shuffle effects when I pick up a top or something and having lands that do that are very nice. 2 more isn't exactly a lot or anything, but it's also good because these will table most of the time, and a shuffle effect on a land that tables could be important in draft.
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I'm not advocating these lands as the best fixers available, but past the Dual/Shock/Fetch/Man land suite, slot #5 is up in the air with a lot of solid options to choose from. It may be worth playtesting them over your current number 5 land to see how they play for your playgroup. The results and opinions on their play here so far have been good.
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