What kind of support do you need to make Replenish good?
I think this card can be a huge swing in the board state, especially if you have enough enchantments in your cube to have an "enchantments matter" deck or at least a heavy enchantment sub-theme. But what's the critical amount of enchantments needed in your cube / white to justify including Replenish? Is it playable without a lot of looting effects? What enchantment bombs would you need?
I used to play this in EDH as a game ending combo peace, but in cube I can't seeing it being as great.
I can see this working in some kind of weird Enchantment matters cube, where you run this along side with Open the Vaults and a lot of Enchantments that like going the the graveyard as in Seal of Fire.
I'll do a quick search and see what I can find on enchantments you might want.
Edit:
First things that come to mind are Animate Dead and Necromancy as they are basically creatures you get back with Replenish, and you don't need to be in Reanimator, you can just run removal and be willing to take the best creature in either graveyard as your own.
You obviously also run things like Faith's Fetters and Oblivion Ring so if they get destroyed or in the case of Fetters if the thing it's on gets destroyed it just comes back. So aside from standard stuff here are some options:
Not a lot of great choices but it's something I guess? You could basically get a bunch of different cards and either run a deck that wants to loot, or one that plays more like Second Sunrise/Faiths Reward and just sacs its own stuff to bring it back.
I know you're more of a traditionalist, but this is very narrow-minded. Rather than talk about how unplayable it is, why not instead talk about contexts in which Replenish could used in cube. It's definitely not out of the realm of possibility to run an enchantments-matters sub-theme in white/green. Context is everything. Sure, in a cube of staples with no enchantment support Replenish is about as good as Sorrow's Path. Especially with fringe cards we have to be willing to consider scenarios in which these cards are all stars. This is exactly how I was inspired to build three of my themed cubes and promote a half a dozen archetypes in my main list.
I just don't think you could get the critical mass of cards together in a cube deck to make Replenish worth a slot.
In a regular cube, I 100% agree, but I think Replenish could be pretty fun in a cube supporting a U/W or W/G Enchantress sub-theme. Here's a random list of cards off the top of my head that could help support this archetype in addition to cards like Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere which people are already running:
I actually really like the idea of a prison-style deck and could definitely see myself trying something like this in the future. At the end of the day, does Replenish do a lot in these decks? With a bunch of looting effects and big enough enchantments, I think we might be surprised!
Really? Enlightened Tutor was about as useful in MVW as, well...it wasn't very useful. This is one of I'm sure are many cards in your list that I could make a case for. Not just that, but pretty much any card created prior to Mirage wasn't designed with limited in mind, so that sorta rules those out as 'good limited cards'.
I get what you're trying to say here, but if we stuck to cards that were only good in limited and not constructed and vice versa, we'd never innovate. Dismissing Replenish on the criteria of being a bad limited card just isn't fair to the card. Examining limited card in the context of the sets in which they were printed can also produce skewed results. Smash to Smithereens and Nature's Claim were actually pretty bad in their respective draft formats. Put them in either Mirrodin block, and they'd be all stars. First-pickable. Cube just like any other format requires context. In our format super busted cards like Necropotence skirt the line of being playable, and otherwise mediocre-to-good cards turn into first picks.
Replenish deserves more than being evaluated out of context. It's a very powerful effect that could provide an interesting and colorful sub-theme and I am very open to discussing its possibilities.
I can't see being able to get a critical mass of cards together to make Replenish good. An enchantress subtheme in the cube would be interesting, but hard to draft, full of cards that would only see play in that one deck, and ultimately not very good anyways. I think it would take way too much work to make Replenish worth using, and it would have a more detrimental effect on how the cube drafts rather than a beneficial one.
@kojiro: I am not necessarily talking about the limited environment in that the card was printed.
What exactly is your definition of a playable limited card? If we're not taking into account the card's original design and format, don't you mean to just say a playable cube card? I've noticed you tend to support more conventional cube builds and are very numbers oriented. It's really not surprising that Replenish and other cards like it are not highly rated or worthy of testing in your build. I am merely pointing out that saying it's not playable in cube because it's a bad limited card just isn't fair to the card nor is it helpful to those of us with different builds that may be open to the idea of an enchantments-matter sub-theme. I'm noticing more people who want to go outside of the box when designing their cube. This is much different than my early days on this board. I would have been surprised to see a Replenish SCD thread get 2 posts let alone my personal support and interest.
Replenish not only requires lots of or at minimum very expensive enchantments to be playable, but also a way to get them into the graveyard and unless you start milling/ entombing them you will encounter the problem that good enchantment removal is very rare.
A card is only unplayable until it's playable. I remember Bazaar and Nether Void being really bad for our group. I forced the hell out of them in early days of my list because I owned them and I'd be damned if I couldn't play them. These cards were great but they were ahead of their time and not synergistic enough with the rest of my list to merit inclusion. Three years later I run Nether Void and Bazaar and they're damn near first-pickable again. The cards didn't change, the environment did.
Replenish is a huge effect. Yes, it requires you being heavily invested in enchantments and loot effects to make it worth the while, but I and others have provided a number of cards that help enable it. All it takes is a few cards/interactions to be promoted in a list to make Replenish a perfectly reasonable and even a good cube card. Hell, give us a planeswalker that interacts with enchantments like Tezz interacts with artifacts, an Attunement or two, maybe another Seal or Sphere of Safety type card and all the sudden Replenish doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore.
Really what it boils down to is being willing to allow an otherwise substandard set of cards to enter the fray and displace 'better' cards. I personally put synergy above all other things. In this build and really any other build that pushes a theme, you're sacrificing raw power for synergy. You run the risk of watering down your draft environment, but the reward is decks are actually more powerful than their vanilla brethren. Pox is an excellent example of this. Black decks on their own are actually pretty bad, but with all the great synergies Smokestack black and Pox provides, black is more fun and powerful than ever. I'm not saying that an enchantments matters sub-theme is better than other mid-range strategies like tokens, or even artifacts. The enchantment build may not even want to run Replenish, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to see more lists want to try out prison-style and enchantment combo decks as more effects become available.
For what it's worth, I'm genuinely interested in looking into this strategy for my list at some point.
What about a cube that focuses more on enchantments than usual and replaces various cards with Enchantment versions. You know Wild Growth over Llanowar Elves or Awakening Zone over some mana rock for example. The power level of this cube would obviously be different, and not necessarily for the worst, just as two real draft formats are different but not worse.
Furthermore, with the addition of more utility enchantments as a whole, you will see more enchantment removal drafted as you're now not only hitting their Oblivion Rings but their pseudo Llanowar Elves too. Sure their Seal of Fire can't be really killed in that manner, but your Seal of Cleansing is a lot better all of a sudden. There's also Sterling Grove which becomes and ok tutor that can come back and obviously getting an extra use out of Pernicious Deed can't be bad?
I don't see why Replenish has to be some kind of weird combo card that just has to win the game if resolved... It could just be a utility card that gets back a few enchantments that can do work and on occasion do that whole winning the game thing.
Going back to what Kojiro also said about environments changing, if you go back to the thread about Awakening Zone only a few months ago people were saying the card was bad and did nothing, now people love it in their pox decks and even sometimes big ramp decks.
Edit: Also, going into Bant colours, both Control Magic and Stand Still are cards that are fun to play and will hit the graveyard often.
Agree with Eidolon. Replenish gets back enchantments, the least used card type other than planeswalkers. Also, how many enchantments get binned during the course of the game? Not that many.
Academy rector is a much better alternative, but still pretty bad in cube. The card is glacially slow and conditional upon it dying. I wouldn't run either in cube.
If you built a cube that was completely enchantment based replenish might be good. But that's if you built an enchantment based cube, which sounds like a pretty terrible idea.
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i understand both sides of this argument. my personal opinion is that replenish could definitely be supported in cube, but making it competitive would change the list pretty substantially. i don't think i'd enjoy it in my own cube, but it could be fun in a variant list.
When I see Healing Salve, I'm often like "Oh girl, I wish I could turn every card into this." Thanks they removed the gain life part, otherwise this would have been broken.
What about a cube that focuses more on enchantments than usual and replaces various cards with Enchantment versions.
So, I remove a bunch of efficient spells for less efficient enchantments so that I can do ...what? Play Replenish and a handful of other support cards that work with enchantments?
I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it's not worth it. How many enchantments would I need in the average deck to make the enchantment themed cards worth using? 7+? Because there's only about 30 or so cubeworthy enchantments across all 5 colors. I'd have to replace a ton of great cards for worse enchantments just to use cards like Replenish, and even when I do, the deck wouldn't be worth the effort to draft it nor the impact it would have on the average power-level of the cards being replaced.
I agree that, for replenish to be good, you would have to seriously distort the draft environment. I'm not saying that this would necessarily be a bad thing, but it would have to be an "enchantments matter" draft set, rather than a typical cube.
I do wonder when (if?) Wizards will bring out the Enchantment block. Possibly it would not be deep enough for a full block and would just be one or two sets. I imagine the flavour being strange and dreamlike, possibly the whole plane is just in the mind of a sleeping planeswalker and the residents fear the time he wakes and do what they can to prevent it. In my imagination all flavour text is written by Neil Gaiman and the set as a whole is beautiful.
Until that time, though, I don't think there is enough to justify an Enchantment cube (Metathran Elite, Lucent Liminid, er...) but I would love for someone to prove me wrong.
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So, I remove a bunch of efficient spells for less efficient enchantments so that I can do ...what? Play Replenish and a handful of other support cards that work with enchantments?
Yes, exactly this. You sacrifice power for synergy (all just theory, of course).
I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it's not worth it. How many enchantments would I need in the average deck to make the enchantment themed cards worth using? 7+? Because there's only about 30 or so cubeworthy enchantments across all 5 colors. I'd have to replace a ton of great cards for worse enchantments just to use cards like Replenish, and even when I do, the deck wouldn't be worth the effort to draft it nor the impact it would have on the average power-level of the cards being replaced.
I think we're at a point where defining what's 'worth it' is very, very different from cube to cube. For you, you'd rather not sacrifice raw power to run a sub-theme unless the value is there. That's perfectly reasonable. For others, this prison/enchantment-matters theme is perfectly viable. Hell, on paper it actually looks better than something like Pox, IMO. At this point I'm arguing more for [MCD] than the Replenish [SCD].
In my imagination all flavour text is written by Neil Gaiman and the set as a whole is beautiful.
OMG! Please, please make this happen! I want a Sandman/The Endless block!
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Now that we've thought of this block, I imagine that Mervyn, Lucien, Eve, and Nuala draft this set in the Library.
To keep the post on topic, I agree that this is a powerful card for constructed but it's too hard to make it work in cube without significantly distorting the cube into an enchantment- or combo-based cube.
Just wanted to say, I agree that Replenish [SCD] is more or less pointless, but a MCD regarding enchantments would be productive; even if it will likely require a large number of substitutions to make a "traditional" cube make enchantments matter.
I've been designing a Mono-W cube that was likely going to have a heavy dose of artifact and enchantments, but this thread, and Kojiro in particular, has inspired me to see if replenish can be an archtype within the cube. I think it can be done, if I can figure out a way to efficiently bin stuff in mono W.
Lastly, @Humpty_Dumpty: Thran Golem is very sad that you forgot about him.
Think about it like this, even if you had several enchantments in a deck, Auramancer is likely to provide a more powerful effect in the deck. For one it provides a 2/2 body in addition to an Enchantment with you in all likelihood would have mana to cast anyway.
There aren't really many expensive enchantments (6+ mana) that are even worth playing in cube, so you aren't likely to save mana in the first place assuming that you can somehow manage to put it into your grave in the first place.
I think in is safe to say that Replenish is not playable in cube. Even if you could find a way, it would still just be a far under-powered strategy that wouldn't even be able to beat the most standard of builds even if it did come together.
If you want to spend card slots on more alternative strategies then spend them on powerfulcomboswithredundancywithcards that are already in cubes rather than stuff like this.
Well it's been two years since this thread first came about. I'm not sure whether to start a new thread or use the existing one, my intuition tells me I should post here.
The enchantment block has come and gone (which was mentioned a few times on this thread), so it may be nice to get new people in the community's opinions, or see if any old posters on this thread have had new play experiences or a changing of old views.
I'm going to start testing Replenish. Not sure what to cut for it yet.
It's very good with Gifts Ungiven and now that we run Personal Tutor in addition to all the ones more powerful than it, we may be able to build a deck featuring Replenish as a comborific win condition. We're adding in Omniscience next round too, so if you discard Omniscience in the first three mana (very do-able) you'll be able to Replenish it back once you hit 3W and then cast everything else in your hand. Obviously very good with Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, Dream Halls, Control Magic, Treachery, Cadaverous Bloom and Pernicious Deed).
It's also good with enchantments if they get discarded via an enemy Hymn to Tourach or disenchanted too. Getting back an Oblivion Ring/Banishing Light, Faith's Fetters, Moat, Sylvan Library, Fastbond, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth, Survival of the Fittest or Bitterblossom is decent. It's particularly relevant in reanimator where enchantment destruction is boarded in against you. Even getting back a Sneak Attack can be sweet. I don't know how many decks that play those cards will want to play Replenish too -- I think it will be at its best in storm.
I know a lot of cube managers don't cube with some of the cards we do that are amazing with Rector or Replenish, like Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Mirari's Wake, or Mana Reflection, but a lot of people play enchantments that we don't (Journey to Nowhere, Detention Sphere, Spear of Heliod, and Seal of Cleansing off the top of my head) that might give Replenish some value in their eyes.
I'll report back with some testing reports after Friday where I'll try to get a few drafts together and seed Replenish and draft it myself.
I think this card can be a huge swing in the board state, especially if you have enough enchantments in your cube to have an "enchantments matter" deck or at least a heavy enchantment sub-theme. But what's the critical amount of enchantments needed in your cube / white to justify including Replenish? Is it playable without a lot of looting effects? What enchantment bombs would you need?
I can see this working in some kind of weird Enchantment matters cube, where you run this along side with Open the Vaults and a lot of Enchantments that like going the the graveyard as in Seal of Fire.
I'll do a quick search and see what I can find on enchantments you might want.
Edit:
First things that come to mind are Animate Dead and Necromancy as they are basically creatures you get back with Replenish, and you don't need to be in Reanimator, you can just run removal and be willing to take the best creature in either graveyard as your own.
You obviously also run things like Faith's Fetters and Oblivion Ring so if they get destroyed or in the case of Fetters if the thing it's on gets destroyed it just comes back. So aside from standard stuff here are some options:
Options in White:
Opal Archangel
Opal Caryatid
Parallax Wave (Ok this one is kind of generally good)
Promise of Bunrei
Seal of Cleansing (Standard choice too.)
Soul Snare (Fantastic for your deck and not bad as a whole, it's like Condemn)
Not a lot of great choices but it's something I guess? You could basically get a bunch of different cards and either run a deck that wants to loot, or one that plays more like Second Sunrise/Faiths Reward and just sacs its own stuff to bring it back.
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I know you're more of a traditionalist, but this is very narrow-minded. Rather than talk about how unplayable it is, why not instead talk about contexts in which Replenish could used in cube. It's definitely not out of the realm of possibility to run an enchantments-matters sub-theme in white/green. Context is everything. Sure, in a cube of staples with no enchantment support Replenish is about as good as Sorrow's Path. Especially with fringe cards we have to be willing to consider scenarios in which these cards are all stars. This is exactly how I was inspired to build three of my themed cubes and promote a half a dozen archetypes in my main list.
In a regular cube, I 100% agree, but I think Replenish could be pretty fun in a cube supporting a U/W or W/G Enchantress sub-theme. Here's a random list of cards off the top of my head that could help support this archetype in addition to cards like Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere which people are already running:
I actually really like the idea of a prison-style deck and could definitely see myself trying something like this in the future. At the end of the day, does Replenish do a lot in these decks? With a bunch of looting effects and big enough enchantments, I think we might be surprised!
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I get what you're trying to say here, but if we stuck to cards that were only good in limited and not constructed and vice versa, we'd never innovate. Dismissing Replenish on the criteria of being a bad limited card just isn't fair to the card. Examining limited card in the context of the sets in which they were printed can also produce skewed results. Smash to Smithereens and Nature's Claim were actually pretty bad in their respective draft formats. Put them in either Mirrodin block, and they'd be all stars. First-pickable. Cube just like any other format requires context. In our format super busted cards like Necropotence skirt the line of being playable, and otherwise mediocre-to-good cards turn into first picks.
Replenish deserves more than being evaluated out of context. It's a very powerful effect that could provide an interesting and colorful sub-theme and I am very open to discussing its possibilities.
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A card is only unplayable until it's playable. I remember Bazaar and Nether Void being really bad for our group. I forced the hell out of them in early days of my list because I owned them and I'd be damned if I couldn't play them. These cards were great but they were ahead of their time and not synergistic enough with the rest of my list to merit inclusion. Three years later I run Nether Void and Bazaar and they're damn near first-pickable again. The cards didn't change, the environment did.
Replenish is a huge effect. Yes, it requires you being heavily invested in enchantments and loot effects to make it worth the while, but I and others have provided a number of cards that help enable it. All it takes is a few cards/interactions to be promoted in a list to make Replenish a perfectly reasonable and even a good cube card. Hell, give us a planeswalker that interacts with enchantments like Tezz interacts with artifacts, an Attunement or two, maybe another Seal or Sphere of Safety type card and all the sudden Replenish doesn't seem so far-fetched anymore.
Really what it boils down to is being willing to allow an otherwise substandard set of cards to enter the fray and displace 'better' cards. I personally put synergy above all other things. In this build and really any other build that pushes a theme, you're sacrificing raw power for synergy. You run the risk of watering down your draft environment, but the reward is decks are actually more powerful than their vanilla brethren. Pox is an excellent example of this. Black decks on their own are actually pretty bad, but with all the great synergies Smokestack black and Pox provides, black is more fun and powerful than ever. I'm not saying that an enchantments matters sub-theme is better than other mid-range strategies like tokens, or even artifacts. The enchantment build may not even want to run Replenish, but it's not out of the realm of possibility to see more lists want to try out prison-style and enchantment combo decks as more effects become available.
For what it's worth, I'm genuinely interested in looking into this strategy for my list at some point.
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What about a cube that focuses more on enchantments than usual and replaces various cards with Enchantment versions. You know Wild Growth over Llanowar Elves or Awakening Zone over some mana rock for example. The power level of this cube would obviously be different, and not necessarily for the worst, just as two real draft formats are different but not worse.
Furthermore, with the addition of more utility enchantments as a whole, you will see more enchantment removal drafted as you're now not only hitting their Oblivion Rings but their pseudo Llanowar Elves too. Sure their Seal of Fire can't be really killed in that manner, but your Seal of Cleansing is a lot better all of a sudden. There's also Sterling Grove which becomes and ok tutor that can come back and obviously getting an extra use out of Pernicious Deed can't be bad?
I don't see why Replenish has to be some kind of weird combo card that just has to win the game if resolved... It could just be a utility card that gets back a few enchantments that can do work and on occasion do that whole winning the game thing.
Going back to what Kojiro also said about environments changing, if you go back to the thread about Awakening Zone only a few months ago people were saying the card was bad and did nothing, now people love it in their pox decks and even sometimes big ramp decks.
Edit: Also, going into Bant colours, both Control Magic and Stand Still are cards that are fun to play and will hit the graveyard often.
Academy rector is a much better alternative, but still pretty bad in cube. The card is glacially slow and conditional upon it dying. I wouldn't run either in cube.
If you built a cube that was completely enchantment based replenish might be good. But that's if you built an enchantment based cube, which sounds like a pretty terrible idea.
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So, I remove a bunch of efficient spells for less efficient enchantments so that I can do ...what? Play Replenish and a handful of other support cards that work with enchantments?
I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said it's not worth it. How many enchantments would I need in the average deck to make the enchantment themed cards worth using? 7+? Because there's only about 30 or so cubeworthy enchantments across all 5 colors. I'd have to replace a ton of great cards for worse enchantments just to use cards like Replenish, and even when I do, the deck wouldn't be worth the effort to draft it nor the impact it would have on the average power-level of the cards being replaced.
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I do wonder when (if?) Wizards will bring out the Enchantment block. Possibly it would not be deep enough for a full block and would just be one or two sets. I imagine the flavour being strange and dreamlike, possibly the whole plane is just in the mind of a sleeping planeswalker and the residents fear the time he wakes and do what they can to prevent it. In my imagination all flavour text is written by Neil Gaiman and the set as a whole is beautiful.
Until that time, though, I don't think there is enough to justify an Enchantment cube (Metathran Elite, Lucent Liminid, er...) but I would love for someone to prove me wrong.
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I think we're at a point where defining what's 'worth it' is very, very different from cube to cube. For you, you'd rather not sacrifice raw power to run a sub-theme unless the value is there. That's perfectly reasonable. For others, this prison/enchantment-matters theme is perfectly viable. Hell, on paper it actually looks better than something like Pox, IMO. At this point I'm arguing more for [MCD] than the Replenish [SCD].
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OMG! Please, please make this happen! I want a Sandman/The Endless block!
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To keep the post on topic, I agree that this is a powerful card for constructed but it's too hard to make it work in cube without significantly distorting the cube into an enchantment- or combo-based cube.
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I've been designing a Mono-W cube that was likely going to have a heavy dose of artifact and enchantments, but this thread, and Kojiro in particular, has inspired me to see if replenish can be an archtype within the cube. I think it can be done, if I can figure out a way to efficiently bin stuff in mono W.
Lastly, @Humpty_Dumpty: Thran Golem is very sad that you forgot about him.
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There aren't really many expensive enchantments (6+ mana) that are even worth playing in cube, so you aren't likely to save mana in the first place assuming that you can somehow manage to put it into your grave in the first place.
I think in is safe to say that Replenish is not playable in cube. Even if you could find a way, it would still just be a far under-powered strategy that wouldn't even be able to beat the most standard of builds even if it did come together.
If you want to spend card slots on more alternative strategies then spend them on powerful combos with redundancy with cards that are already in cubes rather than stuff like this.
The enchantment block has come and gone (which was mentioned a few times on this thread), so it may be nice to get new people in the community's opinions, or see if any old posters on this thread have had new play experiences or a changing of old views.
I'm going to start testing Replenish. Not sure what to cut for it yet.
It's very good with Gifts Ungiven and now that we run Personal Tutor in addition to all the ones more powerful than it, we may be able to build a deck featuring Replenish as a comborific win condition. We're adding in Omniscience next round too, so if you discard Omniscience in the first three mana (very do-able) you'll be able to Replenish it back once you hit 3W and then cast everything else in your hand. Obviously very good with Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mirari's Wake, Mana Reflection, Dream Halls, Control Magic, Treachery, Cadaverous Bloom and Pernicious Deed).
It's also good with enchantments if they get discarded via an enemy Hymn to Tourach or disenchanted too. Getting back an Oblivion Ring/Banishing Light, Faith's Fetters, Moat, Sylvan Library, Fastbond, Wild Growth, Utopia Sprawl, Overgrowth, Survival of the Fittest or Bitterblossom is decent. It's particularly relevant in reanimator where enchantment destruction is boarded in against you. Even getting back a Sneak Attack can be sweet. I don't know how many decks that play those cards will want to play Replenish too -- I think it will be at its best in storm.
I know a lot of cube managers don't cube with some of the cards we do that are amazing with Rector or Replenish, like Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence, Mirari's Wake, or Mana Reflection, but a lot of people play enchantments that we don't (Journey to Nowhere, Detention Sphere, Spear of Heliod, and Seal of Cleansing off the top of my head) that might give Replenish some value in their eyes.
I'll report back with some testing reports after Friday where I'll try to get a few drafts together and seed Replenish and draft it myself.
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