Playtest that configuration for a while and see if the lesser 2 rocks are even needed. They might not be. You don't want to overdo the quantity of mana rocks; they should still need to be prioritized by the decks that want them. Lists that are lousy with "free" acceleration often have aggro struggle to be competitive.
I think that I'm about to cut the last Signet from my cube (Dimir Signet) because it's in my guild section and I want to add another card. Then again, my cube is only 270 cards so space is tight. The prior signets to leave the cube were also blue signets; in general, I agree that the signets/talismans that you want are the control-oriented blue ones (UW, UB, and to a lesser extent, UR).
Previosly, I do not have the good artifact mana cards like Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Crome and Mox Diamond, Chromatic Lantern. So I used to run all my blue aligned signets.
Now that I have the good manafacts, I think that slot is best used for business spells. After all, there are only 4 spots per guild in my 450. Giving up one of them for signets that other colors may snag is disadvantageous for the guild. I'd rather put in a powerful guild spell, specially that the Return to Ravnica gave us a lot of options.
Does anyone run more than just the blue signets? How do they usually play? I'm making some cuts to my guild sections and I'm looking to add a few signets.
I ran just the blue signets for a long time, when I was still missing a lot of the colorless cards I wanted to run. These days I only run Izzet Signet, and that is planning to come out when I find another colorless card I want to run.
They are good, for sure, and you play both Tezz's, so the are much better in your cube than mine, where art.dec is not a thing.
I run all the blue signets because blue control decks want them for the reasons that eidolon mentioned (and because I support the artifact deck).
I run all the white signets because white control decks love to play their Wrath one turn earlier.
I run all the red signets because I suppport the Wildfire deck.
I run Golgari Signet because it just feels right to complete the full cycle and because I don't have to worry about guild slots this way.
In a powered cube of under ~540, I wouldn't run any signets unless you want to support the heck out of the artifact and/or Wildfire deck. I can't say what's good for unpowered.
Wow all 10.. Do you find that aggro has been weakened as a result? Is it capable of staying a step ahead of all of these control decks with plenty of fast(er) mana at their disposal? That's my fear with adding so many signets beyond the blue ones.
I think having access to that much cheap mana acceleration is necessary to prevent creature-light control decks from getting steamrolled by fast aggro decks. Aggro decks are generally favored in that matchup and signets bring it a bit closer towards 50/50.
I think the signets are super powerful and some are definitely worth it under 540. Even in a powered environment they still perform at a high level since they ramp any deck super early, and outside of those archetypes they are still stellar in decks that want to cast things that cost 4 or more.
I wouldn't run all 10 even in an unpowered cube. There are 5 good colored mana rocks, and the rest I'd pass on. Run the colorless ones with abilities that are relevant to more decks, and leave the more narrow and/or less powerful Signets and Talisman out.
Yeah I can see running all 10 in Star Slayer's cube of 600, but it seems excessive for 450.
Wtwlf, you've made me reconsider adding signets at all (and removing the 2 that I already play) in favor of some more general mana rocks. At this risk of going too off topic from the thread title, how do people feel specifically about Coldsteel Heart, Chrome Mox(not so hot on this one) and Worn Powerstone? I'm looking to add more mana rocks and fixing, but I'm nervous about it making other decks too strong against aggro. On the other hand, I love the Upheaval deck and just added both Wildfire, so I look to give them some love. I'm not sure what the proper balance is.
MunchieeZ, our cube is powered but you might want to check it out anyway as it's the same size as yours. We support the artifact deck and Wildfire/Upheaval, so we run more mana rocks than the average cube. Aggro is strong but not dominant in our environment. Disclaimer: our cube is designed for rochester draft.
I really like all three, Coldsteel Heart is a solid 5-color fixer, Chrome Mox is just below Mox Diamond in power level (just don't forget to give it a land slot when deck building) and Worn Powerstone has been well liked for slower decks.
Coldsteel Heart is is straight-up mana fixing mana rock for every deck that wants one. I think it's one of the better options out there.
Chrome Mox is a great card. It provides you with powerful early acceleration, and takes up a land slot during deck construction. I like it because it's a mana rock that aggro decks like to run, whereas most of the other ones don't play into aggro's gameplan.
Worn Powerstone is no Sol Ring, but if you're playing ramp, Wildfire and Upheaval strategies, it's still good enough for inclusion.
I like them all more than the various signets, because they can be used to full capacity regardless of what colors I'm playing.
Rakdos and Boros signets have been terribad, to the point where their Keyrunes are arguably better. Those guilds are probably the two most aggressive of all the guilds and a mana rock is usually the last thing they want. At least the Keyrunes provide wrath survivability, help you cast that critical five-drop if you miss land drops (more often than not in aggro), and play to their colors' strengths (burn with Rakdos Keyrune and anthems with Boros Keyrune).
I found Gruul Signet to be the second worst after Boros. I think that's because RG aggro is good in my cube, and there's the occasional BR or Grixis control deck that wants the Rakdos signet.
I think having access to that much cheap mana acceleration is necessary to prevent creature-light control decks from getting steamrolled by fast aggro decks. Aggro decks are generally favored in that matchup and signets bring it a bit closer towards 50/50.
I want to strongly disagree with this. In my 540 I run just the blue signets with a selection of colorless and rainbow rocks and control works just fine. I dont really see any decks that would benefit from a completely off color signet (Gruul in an Esper deck for example) when we draft.
Yeah I can see running all 10 in Star Slayer's cube of 600, but it seems excessive for 450.
Wtwlf, you've made me reconsider adding signets at all (and removing the 2 that I already play) in favor of some more general mana rocks. At this risk of going too off topic from the thread title, how do people feel specifically about Coldsteel Heart, Chrome Mox(not so hot on this one) and Worn Powerstone? I'm looking to add more mana rocks and fixing, but I'm nervous about it making other decks too strong against aggro. On the other hand, I love the Upheaval deck and just added both Wildfire, so I look to give them some love. I'm not sure what the proper balance is.
Just for the record: I included all ten signets when I went up from 400 to 480 cards and they have never left my cube since then. 450 cards might be a little bit too small for all ten, but I would include them all in a 500+ unpowered cube.
If you run Upheaval and Wildfire, then Worn Powerstone is a must! Great card for big ramp.
Rakdos and Boros signets have been terribad, to the point where their Keyrunes are arguably better. Those guilds are probably the two most aggressive of all the guilds and a mana rock is usually the last thing they want. At least the Keyrunes provide wrath survivability, help you cast that critical five-drop if you miss land drops (more often than not in aggro), and play to their colors' strengths (burn with Rakdos Keyrune and anthems with Boros Keyrune).
Yes, BR and WR aggro decks are rather common in my cube, too. That doesn't mean that control decks with those colors don't exist though. Grixis control is not that uncommon and a Wildfire deck loves its red signets, even if the deck is not black. Then there is UWR control who loves to cast Wrath on turn three, so the fixing of Boros signet is far from useless.
I found Gruul Signet to be the second worst after Boros. I think that's because RG aggro is good in my cube, and there's the occasional BR or Grixis control deck that wants the Rakdos signet.
Gruul and Boros Signet are part red, so they are good for Wildfire decks. And again, only because a certain color combination sports aggro decks on a regular basis doesn't mean that cards for slower decks in that combination are bad or should be cut. Supporting multiple deck types makes the cube more diverse and drafting more interesting.
I think having access to that much cheap mana acceleration is necessary to prevent creature-light control decks from getting steamrolled by fast aggro decks. Aggro decks are generally favored in that matchup and signets bring it a bit closer towards 50/50.
I want to strongly disagree with this. In my 540 I run just the blue signets with a selection of colorless and rainbow rocks and control works just fine. I dont really see any decks that would benefit from a completely off color signet (Gruul in an Esper deck for example) when we draft.
I don't use completely off-color signets either and never said that I did. We are using one-color signets (like a Boros Signet in a UW control deck) on a regular basis though.
Sometimes (but surprisingly rarely!), a signet won't make any maindeck because it has an unwanted color combination. There are certainly signets that see a little less play then others. However, they still see a quite a bit of play and some decks are just happy about every signet in at least one of its colors.
It's more of a matter of the primary role of those color combinations though. There are of course going to be Boros decks that want the Signet, but the majority of the time, I'm playing aggro in that color pair, and I'd rather dedicate a card that's valuable to the majority role the guild plays. Exceptions to that rule need to be monstrously powerful (Geist, Deed, etc) to be worth their narrow application.
And I like Bouncelands more than Vivids too, for that matter. If my land's coming into play tapped, I'd rather have the virtual card advantage than the 3+ color fixing.
Before I have blue aligned signets in the guild slots. Now that I have included multiple artifact mana like Sol Ring and Everflowing Chalice, I replaced signets with business spells so the guilds have an equal number of spell options. Sometimes signets gets grabbed by other colours simply for ramp, so why not just give those slots to colorless.
As for cycles, I have a very imbalanced cycle of mana fixing in my unpowered 450. I haven't acquired all the cards yet, so come are replaced with inferior options.
But this is what I am aiming for:
10 Shocks
10 Fetches
5 Man lands (I may remove the aggressive colours, but for now they are all in)
2 Red alignedScars lands
2-4 Black aligned Filter lands (to help with BBB)
1-3 Blue aligned bounce lands (especially white and red)
And once I can buy duals, I will start with the Zoo colours.
So, less than two weeks after claiming here that I never run Signets that are completely off-color, I drafted a deck that ran three Signets that were just that. I was still pretty happy with them though. The deck was mono blue, was light on 1- and 2-drops and I got Tinker during the second booster, so I just grabbed (and played) every Signet that I saw after this point. Being able to get an Inkwell Leviathan or a Sundering Titan onto the battelfield on turn three is a good reason to run off-color Signets. As is casting a Wurmcoil Engine on turn four or five.
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Now that I have the good manafacts, I think that slot is best used for business spells. After all, there are only 4 spots per guild in my 450. Giving up one of them for signets that other colors may snag is disadvantageous for the guild. I'd rather put in a powerful guild spell, specially that the Return to Ravnica gave us a lot of options.
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They are good, for sure, and you play both Tezz's, so the are much better in your cube than mine, where art.dec is not a thing.
I run all the blue signets because blue control decks want them for the reasons that eidolon mentioned (and because I support the artifact deck).
I run all the white signets because white control decks love to play their Wrath one turn earlier.
I run all the red signets because I suppport the Wildfire deck.
I run Golgari Signet because it just feels right to complete the full cycle and because I don't have to worry about guild slots this way.
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I wouldn't run all ten below 400 cards or if I had a powered cube with five Moxen and Sol Ring. Those would more or less take the signet slots.
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Wtwlf, you've made me reconsider adding signets at all (and removing the 2 that I already play) in favor of some more general mana rocks. At this risk of going too off topic from the thread title, how do people feel specifically about Coldsteel Heart, Chrome Mox(not so hot on this one) and Worn Powerstone? I'm looking to add more mana rocks and fixing, but I'm nervous about it making other decks too strong against aggro. On the other hand, I love the Upheaval deck and just added both Wildfire, so I look to give them some love. I'm not sure what the proper balance is.
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I really like all three, Coldsteel Heart is a solid 5-color fixer, Chrome Mox is just below Mox Diamond in power level (just don't forget to give it a land slot when deck building) and Worn Powerstone has been well liked for slower decks.
Chrome Mox is a great card. It provides you with powerful early acceleration, and takes up a land slot during deck construction. I like it because it's a mana rock that aggro decks like to run, whereas most of the other ones don't play into aggro's gameplan.
Worn Powerstone is no Sol Ring, but if you're playing ramp, Wildfire and Upheaval strategies, it's still good enough for inclusion.
I like them all more than the various signets, because they can be used to full capacity regardless of what colors I'm playing.
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and maybe basalt monolith
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I want to strongly disagree with this. In my 540 I run just the blue signets with a selection of colorless and rainbow rocks and control works just fine. I dont really see any decks that would benefit from a completely off color signet (Gruul in an Esper deck for example) when we draft.
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http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/23690
Just for the record: I included all ten signets when I went up from 400 to 480 cards and they have never left my cube since then. 450 cards might be a little bit too small for all ten, but I would include them all in a 500+ unpowered cube.
If you run Upheaval and Wildfire, then Worn Powerstone is a must! Great card for big ramp.
Yes, BR and WR aggro decks are rather common in my cube, too. That doesn't mean that control decks with those colors don't exist though. Grixis control is not that uncommon and a Wildfire deck loves its red signets, even if the deck is not black. Then there is UWR control who loves to cast Wrath on turn three, so the fixing of Boros signet is far from useless.
Gruul and Boros Signet are part red, so they are good for Wildfire decks. And again, only because a certain color combination sports aggro decks on a regular basis doesn't mean that cards for slower decks in that combination are bad or should be cut. Supporting multiple deck types makes the cube more diverse and drafting more interesting.
I don't use completely off-color signets either and never said that I did. We are using one-color signets (like a Boros Signet in a UW control deck) on a regular basis though.
Sometimes (but surprisingly rarely!), a signet won't make any maindeck because it has an unwanted color combination. There are certainly signets that see a little less play then others. However, they still see a quite a bit of play and some decks are just happy about every signet in at least one of its colors.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
And I like Bouncelands more than Vivids too, for that matter. If my land's coming into play tapped, I'd rather have the virtual card advantage than the 3+ color fixing.
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As for cycles, I have a very imbalanced cycle of mana fixing in my unpowered 450. I haven't acquired all the cards yet, so come are replaced with inferior options.
But this is what I am aiming for:
10 Shocks
10 Fetches
5 Man lands (I may remove the aggressive colours, but for now they are all in)
2 Red alignedScars lands
2-4 Black aligned Filter lands (to help with BBB)
1-3 Blue aligned bounce lands (especially white and red)
And once I can buy duals, I will start with the Zoo colours.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG