It's still a great card. It does require a higher skill level to play though (reading the board and your opponents deck, knowing when the advantages outweigh the disadvantages). Just something to consider with your individual playgroups and how you want to manage your cube.
Personally I like it slightly better than Memory Lapse on a card to card basis, though with everything you have to evaluate your cube design to decide what stays in (AKA Memory Lapse I think is better in a tempo setting, where I would argue Arcane Denial could and should be used in any deck).
I do think that the card has also gotten better over time, as must counter targets have increase in general.
As for experience with the card, in the hands of good players, I can't recall seeing the drawback outweigh the gains.
Either way you evaluate Arcane Denial, you're giving up card advantage for the tempo gain. Which is fine and why it's the only 2cc counter I would consider outside the ones I run (it is a hard counter after all). But I don't see how this is better in the hands of a good player than say FoW or Memory Lapse. Like you said, if something is a 'must' counter, you will use it. But that drawback is real, no matter how good (or bad) of a player you are.
It's still a great card. It does require a higher skill level to play though (reading the board and your opponents deck, knowing when the advantages outweigh the disadvantages). Just something to consider with your individual playgroups and how you want to manage your cube.
Personally I like it slightly better than Memory Lapse on a card to card basis, though with everything you have to evaluate your cube design to decide what stays in (AKA Memory Lapse I think is better in a tempo setting, where I would argue Arcane Denial could and should be used in any deck).
I do think that the card has also gotten better over time, as must counter targets have increase in general.
As for experience with the card, in the hands of good players, I can't recall seeing the drawback outweigh the gains.
Either way you evaluate Arcane Denial, you're giving up card advantage for the tempo gain. Which is fine and why it's the only 2cc counter I would consider outside the ones I run (it is a hard counter after all). But I don't see how this is better in the hands of a good player than say FoW or Memory Lapse. Like you said, if something is a 'must' counter, you will use it. But that drawback is real, no matter how good (or bad) of a player you are.
Hard countering is key in a format with tons of must-counters spells. Memory Lapse is a great card, but mainly in tempo builds. Force of Will is a better counter if you are blue enough, but you need to be sure to be able to cast it when you want it. Arcane Denial is good in everything (if you can live with its drawback).
But this is one of those never ending debates, that pops up every now and then. Some say that hard countering is more important than the extra card you give to your opponent, while others cannot accept giving your opponent free cards.
Hating on this card is apparently normal currently. When Alliances was the fresh hotness these puppies were $1-$2 everywhere you looked, FoW lucky to get 50 cents for. IF you used either of these cards EVER, then you should not need a definition of controlling the game. Even half-assed blue mages understand card advantages and how they effect your game. TRUE blue mages wholly understand control, also true blue mages are seldom hampered with card disadvantage. FoW's power increased only when OTHER decks improved to a point where turn 0 answer became somewhat necessity. Having that answer means you might make the game a win instead of a loss. In Cube? Denial is second best counter available next to Drain. Controlling the game, Denial is 1000% control even beyond your decision of the one you counter. Because it is YOUR decision. what you like is totally up to you, but you cant dislike this card under any circumstance, and still claim to understand control.
I am a fan of Arcane Denial, cheapest hard counter ever. If playing control, it slows down the other deck and can help you hit those critical land drops. True control deck can gain the card disadvantage back later on. If you are an aggro deck, you can use it as a tempo play and win before the card disadvantage matters. There is also the rare, but possible scenario of countering your own spell to draw 3 if you have a useless spell in your hand and need to find something really badly.
My counterspell suite is basically the same than dschumm's, except Arcane Denial instead of Daze (480 powered)
When Alliances was the fresh hotness these puppies were $1-$2 everywhere you looked, FoW lucky to get 50 cents for.
Sweet. I remember staring through a glass case and seeing a $25 tag on Balduvian Horde back then. Also, FoW started at $0.50 mainly because it was an uncommon - it didn't stay at that price for very long.
IF you used either of these cards EVER, then you should not need a definition of controlling the game.
I haven't updated my list here on MTGS in a while but I'm almost certain Arcane is still on it, because we did use it for years. Still, I'm a slow learner and my memory sucks so maybe I need a lesson on 'controlling the game'.
Even half-assed blue mages understand card advantages and how they effect your game. TRUE blue mages wholly understand control, also true blue mages are seldom hampered with card disadvantage.
So people who play Arcane are 'TRUE' blue mages and the people that don't are not? Interesting!
FoW's power increased only when OTHER decks improved to a point where turn 0 answer became somewhat necessity.
FoW was always powerful. I get to counter a spell even when I've tapped out. Even half-assed blue mages like me can grasp how awesome that is.
In Cube? Denial is second best counter available next to Drain.
Love Arcane Denial. It's not coming out of my 450 anytime soon. Last time we cubed I got to use it with Consecrated Sphinx in play. Twas the nuts.
Do note that your opponent drawing is optional; but I do get what you mean, your opponet was screwed either way!
Arcane Denial and Vex are the only hard counters in the game that is splashable. (Vexxbeing 3cc definitely never gets considered)
There are turns in which you may want to use up your blue mana for a turn in order to stabilize, having the option to leave 1U open for a turn is a big deal, even if the drawback is to give your opponent cards. In my cube, Arcane Denial (and probebly all the counterspells there) won't be moving anytime soon as I doubt Wizards will be printing better counterspells ever.
The drawback being "real" is why I say it plays better with more experienced players. It has the obvious uses, the must counter plays that are staring you in the face, but there are also those nuance plays. You have to be able to read your opponents board, and the draft, to know what your opponent can pull, and if they will draw anything better than the card they are playing (for the current board state). Sometimes those "must" counter plays are not obvious either. That's what I have seen been done with better players, and it really opens up the range of play for the card compared to those limiting it's uses so as not to make a mistake that could cost them the game (carrying a silver bullet instead of using it as a weapon to parry your opponent when they show an opening).
"But I don't see how this is better in the hands of a good player than say FoW or Memory Lapse"
And I fail to see how this is relevant to whether or not Arcane Denial is worthy of consideration for a person's cube or my case of why you should consider it...
but for sake of argument though, both FoW and Memory Lapse do take skill. Memory Lapse is a different read though, and one that is way more obvious. Reading the current tempo of the board is way easier due to the information being right in front of you, and making the decision to Memory Lapse to continue your tempo and slow down theirs is something you learn quite quickly. I'm not going to compare FoW and Arcane Denial, since I think they are leagues apart in terms of cube inclusion and any comparison is not really value gained.
Since I didn't elaborate before and I guess I should have, the long and short of it is, Arcane Denial is a great card, but it takes a certain degree of experience to open up the value it offers without risking the drawbacks outweighing the gains. This is something to consider if a) your new to cubing and magic or b) you disregarded this card when you were a worse player, and now the card might open up for you.
Since I didn't elaborate before and I guess I should have, the long and short of it is, Arcane Denial is a great card, but it takes a certain degree of experience to open up the value it offers without risking the drawbacks outweighing the gains. This is something to consider if a) your new to cubing and magic or b) you disregarded this card when you were a worse player, and now the card might open up for you.
Wow.....
How about this, I played arcane denial when I was new to cubing and when I was a worse player, but not now. I remember running a type 2 deck with man o war and arcane denial, no need to persuade me on it's uses. I will agree that depending on your build it might be a lot better, but this isn't any more of a skill testing card than many cube cards. Cards like Daze and FoW just became more important as my cube got better and faster.
For the same reason people love this 'Cube is full of must counter spells' is the reason I don't like it. When a deck has few cards you worry about giving them extras is a great trade off for a hard counter. This can be due to timing(tempo) of variation in card quality. At least in my cube I find people's decks are crammed full of amazing cards, so I can be pretty sure they just drew another land and another strong spell. Other cubes may be different.
All that said, arcane denial definitely worth anyone considering and is on the bubble for me, and I expect to see myself running it again.
Arcane Denial is fine. We're not likely to see many more (if any) single blue costed counters, so for me, this is probably the tipping point of where good counters start happening. Anything below Arcane Denial I think could be considered a 'bad' counterspell. I like Memory Lapse and all the other more mediocre counterspells more than Arcane Denial.
in the hands of good players, I can't recall seeing the drawback outweigh the gains.
Doesn't this mean that if a person is a 'good player', they should be running Arcane Denial? If a person can't get around the drawback then they're not a 'good player'. I think this is pretty relevant to the argument.
Arcane Denial is a great card, but it takes a certain degree of experience to open up the value it offers without risking the drawbacks outweighing the gains. This is something to consider if a) your new to cubing and magic or b) you disregarded this card when you were a worse player, and now the card might open up for you.
Again, doesn't this mean that it's bad/inexperienced players who don't run Arcane? That it's worse players who have yet to get past the drawback that don't run it?
I brought up FoW because it is in my cube. I also brought it up well, because it's drawback is also "real". Not only is exiling a card from your hand already a huge deal, the exiled card also has to be blue and you still have to pay 1 life. FoW has a significant affect on how you play your hand and how you draft your deck (and even how you manage your life total to an extent). My argument is that the skill required to make the right call using FoW is just as high, if not higher, than Arcane. I believe this thread was actually opened up again due to this and in my post Arcane was the only 2cc counterspell I mentioned that I currently don't run.
My issue is not whether you include Arcane or not -- because I've had Arcane in my cube for years and I valued it quite highly. My issue is when you downplay the drawback by saying skilled/experienced players can always get around it, and that players who don't include it in their cubes are bad. That's simply not true and to be frank, it's offensive. Because players who can grasp FoW can grasp Arcane Denial.
@hardb0dy
You need to take a step back and be rational here. You are drawing conclusions that are portraying false arguments which I never presented nor intended.
I get this forum has a knee jerk reaction to the term "good players" being thrown down, but never once did I imply, or say, or hint at that you were a bad player for not running it, or not liking it. I simply stated that to see the full value of the card it takes a level of play skill, and in MY personal experience I've never seen the risks outweigh the rewards in the hands of a "good player."
Considering there's hundreds of cards in a cube, with a exponential amount of variation, I don't expect everyone to run this card, whether they be good or bad players. Everyone has their reasons to run certain cards, and I'm not going to draw conclusions on their play abilities based on what they run, because what one person finds fun (which is the point of cubing) another might not.
The term "good player" was solely used because I think we can all agree that at least 99% of the players who have just started playing Magic are not "good players." We all make a journey to become better players, and from my experience (which really is all I can be expected to draw on for analysis) the better players have an easier time playing around the drawbacks. Is this such a crime to state? Is this not valuable to those that have started playing, or only used the card when they were less experienced to review the card and see if things have changed in their analysis. Maybe keep it in the back of their head for review in the future?
The comparison of FoW or Memory Lapse was not relevant, since it had nothing to do with the argument or the analysis of Arcane Denial. It was brought up on false assumptions, and thin conclusions, which is why I didn't get why you thought it was relevant. I can state now that it's not.
It looks like you came into this just looking for a fight instead of constructive analysis. You are trying to draw hidden conclusions from my analysis and apply it to your own straw man argument. Their are so many reasons to include or not include a card, why would this one aspect be the single conclusion of why you should run a card, and how could I draw off that conclusion that you are a bad player? I don't think you're a bad player for not running Arcane Denial, and it would be wrong of me to think so.
@dschumm
I never said you had to run it. That was never a conclusion. Nor did I say if you're an experienced player you would run it. For the exact reasons you explained are why I would not say this is a must run card and why I stated in my initial argument "though with everything you have to evaluate your cube design to decide what stays in." I do appreciate the constructiveness of your feedback as it was well put, though the point it was drawn off of was not a point made.
Overall I think I was wrong in using the term "good player." Each person has a different viewpoint of what and who a "good player" is and it was not very descriptive of what I was trying to portray. Not only that it made people draw conclusions that were not intended or implied. It was just meant as a quick synopsis on my views with the card so I didn't think much about it. Next time I'll be sure to explain myself better.
I don't know if this throws a huge monkey wrench into this argument or not, but I've found that the people that use Denial to great success in my cube are either the folks with the most cube experience with it, or the players that are generally better at Magic. Newer players and less experienced players tend to frown upon the drawback, and the other folks understand the tradeoffs you have to concede in order to have access to a splashable hard-counter. Force of Will isn't a perfect comparison, but it's similar in that you give up card advantage for the ability to have access to a cost that's otherwise unavailable on that kind of effect. FoW is free, but it costs you an additional blue card from your hand (which hurts a lot more in the cube than it does in constructed). Denial also costs you a card from a CA standpoint, but you can be blue-light on both resources and cards and still get full value from the effect. It's been debated to death, but I'm a big fan of the card for that reason.
@RJRellik
My apologies, I drew the wrong conclusions and was a bit harsh. I certainly wasn't just looking for a fight... I actually went back and read the earlier posts on this thread after posting and saw just how passionately divided people are regarding this card. Better/Experienced players will be the best at minimizing the drawbacks of any card, not just this one.
Anyhow, I do apologize, and may your opponents draw trash off your Arcane Denials!
I've always been super middle-of-the-road about this. I play with good and not-so-good players, and with both the draw back of giving your opponent is very real. While forcing your opponent to draw into a better answer is sometimes better than letting the spell resolve, there are times where I do need to counter the spell but really can't afford to let them draw into more/better action. Since they'll probably not print another good 2 mana counter spell Arcane Denial prob won't go anywhere, but I hate having to make a decision--such as whether to counter this spell or save it for a "better" one--only to be wrong in both cases.
I have run into this situation quite a bit as I'm often drafting with newer players. While they are quick to draft power, like Moxen, Sol Ring etc., I will frequently seen insanely powerful cube cards going really late in drafts, things like Survival, Recurring Nightmare, and Upheaval.
I think as players gain experience, both with cube and magic in general they begin to appreciate the distinction between abstract power level and contextual power level. When you use Denial to do what counter spells to best, to trump your opponent's trump (whether that's their bomb or their answer to you game winning play), then you're pretty happy about a 1U hard counter, despite the card disadvantage. Over time players learn this. And that's what's so great about cube, it exposes players to situations they might not encounter if all they've played is standard or current limited.
Denial reminds me a lot of Meloku or Gifts Ungiven, classic blue "skills tester" cards.
If a player doesn't like a card, and then misplays it to boot, I wouldn't consider that grounds for cutting a card. It will boil down to experience in both the format and with the card in question. Don't play cards you group hates, but don't cut cards because they're being misused either.
Arcane Denial isn't a trap card. Playing Lion's Eye Diamond with no storm support is a "trap". Playing a good splashable hard counter that the opponent misused isn't trapping them.
Hard countering a spell is pretty stellar, but the overall 3-for-2 makes it tougher to play in certain spots, and I could certainly see not playing it for that reason. Like when you're countering a game-altering play the ensuing card disadvantage might be worth it, but there are definitely spells and spots where you would happily launch off a counterspell/mana leak/miscalc/etc but not arcane as letting them draw that gas feels bad. I don't mind it at all, and it has spots in cubes because it costs 1U and counters a spell no questions asked, but the counter is not always worth the cards.
Necro because I recently realized this card might be the perfect example of a card it's easy to forget might not fit your playgroup. I realized through cubing why this card is so great for all the reasons brought up in this thread. But yesterday I did a sealed with a fairly new player who was very new to cube, and he definitely used Arcane Denial suboptimally, questioned why it was in the cube, and got annoyed about it. Suddenly it hit me I was including because I liked it, but was neglecting to consider the other people playing the cards! Might be interesting to consider what other cards are in this category. Maybe there's a thread about that already?
How do use Arcane Denial suboptimally? You counter a bad card? You use it when you could as well use another counter you have in your hand? You kill next turn but only have one card in your library?
Maybe countering a card that isn't important in the game state is bad, but that would be a mistake even with a normal Counterspell.
Either way you evaluate Arcane Denial, you're giving up card advantage for the tempo gain. Which is fine and why it's the only 2cc counter I would consider outside the ones I run (it is a hard counter after all). But I don't see how this is better in the hands of a good player than say FoW or Memory Lapse. Like you said, if something is a 'must' counter, you will use it. But that drawback is real, no matter how good (or bad) of a player you are.
Hard countering is key in a format with tons of must-counters spells. Memory Lapse is a great card, but mainly in tempo builds. Force of Will is a better counter if you are blue enough, but you need to be sure to be able to cast it when you want it. Arcane Denial is good in everything (if you can live with its drawback).
But this is one of those never ending debates, that pops up every now and then. Some say that hard countering is more important than the extra card you give to your opponent, while others cannot accept giving your opponent free cards.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
My counterspell suite is basically the same than dschumm's, except Arcane Denial instead of Daze (480 powered)
I haven't updated my list here on MTGS in a while but I'm almost certain Arcane is still on it, because we did use it for years. Still, I'm a slow learner and my memory sucks so maybe I need a lesson on 'controlling the game'.
So people who play Arcane are 'TRUE' blue mages and the people that don't are not? Interesting!
FoW was always powerful. I get to counter a spell even when I've tapped out. Even half-assed blue mages like me can grasp how awesome that is.
That was almost as good as Usman's Nihari joke!
Do note that your opponent drawing is optional; but I do get what you mean, your opponet was screwed either way!
Arcane Denial and Vex are the only hard counters in the game that is splashable. (Vexxbeing 3cc definitely never gets considered)
There are turns in which you may want to use up your blue mana for a turn in order to stabilize, having the option to leave 1U open for a turn is a big deal, even if the drawback is to give your opponent cards. In my cube, Arcane Denial (and probebly all the counterspells there) won't be moving anytime soon as I doubt Wizards will be printing better counterspells ever.
Plus that RKF art!
"But I don't see how this is better in the hands of a good player than say FoW or Memory Lapse"
And I fail to see how this is relevant to whether or not Arcane Denial is worthy of consideration for a person's cube or my case of why you should consider it...
but for sake of argument though, both FoW and Memory Lapse do take skill. Memory Lapse is a different read though, and one that is way more obvious. Reading the current tempo of the board is way easier due to the information being right in front of you, and making the decision to Memory Lapse to continue your tempo and slow down theirs is something you learn quite quickly. I'm not going to compare FoW and Arcane Denial, since I think they are leagues apart in terms of cube inclusion and any comparison is not really value gained.
Since I didn't elaborate before and I guess I should have, the long and short of it is, Arcane Denial is a great card, but it takes a certain degree of experience to open up the value it offers without risking the drawbacks outweighing the gains. This is something to consider if a) your new to cubing and magic or b) you disregarded this card when you were a worse player, and now the card might open up for you.
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Wow.....
How about this, I played arcane denial when I was new to cubing and when I was a worse player, but not now. I remember running a type 2 deck with man o war and arcane denial, no need to persuade me on it's uses. I will agree that depending on your build it might be a lot better, but this isn't any more of a skill testing card than many cube cards. Cards like Daze and FoW just became more important as my cube got better and faster.
For the same reason people love this 'Cube is full of must counter spells' is the reason I don't like it. When a deck has few cards you worry about giving them extras is a great trade off for a hard counter. This can be due to timing(tempo) of variation in card quality. At least in my cube I find people's decks are crammed full of amazing cards, so I can be pretty sure they just drew another land and another strong spell. Other cubes may be different.
All that said, arcane denial definitely worth anyone considering and is on the bubble for me, and I expect to see myself running it again.
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Doesn't this mean that if a person is a 'good player', they should be running Arcane Denial? If a person can't get around the drawback then they're not a 'good player'. I think this is pretty relevant to the argument.
Again, doesn't this mean that it's bad/inexperienced players who don't run Arcane? That it's worse players who have yet to get past the drawback that don't run it?
I brought up FoW because it is in my cube. I also brought it up well, because it's drawback is also "real". Not only is exiling a card from your hand already a huge deal, the exiled card also has to be blue and you still have to pay 1 life. FoW has a significant affect on how you play your hand and how you draft your deck (and even how you manage your life total to an extent). My argument is that the skill required to make the right call using FoW is just as high, if not higher, than Arcane. I believe this thread was actually opened up again due to this and in my post Arcane was the only 2cc counterspell I mentioned that I currently don't run.
My issue is not whether you include Arcane or not -- because I've had Arcane in my cube for years and I valued it quite highly. My issue is when you downplay the drawback by saying skilled/experienced players can always get around it, and that players who don't include it in their cubes are bad. That's simply not true and to be frank, it's offensive. Because players who can grasp FoW can grasp Arcane Denial.
You need to take a step back and be rational here. You are drawing conclusions that are portraying false arguments which I never presented nor intended.
I get this forum has a knee jerk reaction to the term "good players" being thrown down, but never once did I imply, or say, or hint at that you were a bad player for not running it, or not liking it. I simply stated that to see the full value of the card it takes a level of play skill, and in MY personal experience I've never seen the risks outweigh the rewards in the hands of a "good player."
Considering there's hundreds of cards in a cube, with a exponential amount of variation, I don't expect everyone to run this card, whether they be good or bad players. Everyone has their reasons to run certain cards, and I'm not going to draw conclusions on their play abilities based on what they run, because what one person finds fun (which is the point of cubing) another might not.
The term "good player" was solely used because I think we can all agree that at least 99% of the players who have just started playing Magic are not "good players." We all make a journey to become better players, and from my experience (which really is all I can be expected to draw on for analysis) the better players have an easier time playing around the drawbacks. Is this such a crime to state? Is this not valuable to those that have started playing, or only used the card when they were less experienced to review the card and see if things have changed in their analysis. Maybe keep it in the back of their head for review in the future?
The comparison of FoW or Memory Lapse was not relevant, since it had nothing to do with the argument or the analysis of Arcane Denial. It was brought up on false assumptions, and thin conclusions, which is why I didn't get why you thought it was relevant. I can state now that it's not.
It looks like you came into this just looking for a fight instead of constructive analysis. You are trying to draw hidden conclusions from my analysis and apply it to your own straw man argument. Their are so many reasons to include or not include a card, why would this one aspect be the single conclusion of why you should run a card, and how could I draw off that conclusion that you are a bad player? I don't think you're a bad player for not running Arcane Denial, and it would be wrong of me to think so.
@dschumm
I never said you had to run it. That was never a conclusion. Nor did I say if you're an experienced player you would run it. For the exact reasons you explained are why I would not say this is a must run card and why I stated in my initial argument "though with everything you have to evaluate your cube design to decide what stays in." I do appreciate the constructiveness of your feedback as it was well put, though the point it was drawn off of was not a point made.
Overall I think I was wrong in using the term "good player." Each person has a different viewpoint of what and who a "good player" is and it was not very descriptive of what I was trying to portray. Not only that it made people draw conclusions that were not intended or implied. It was just meant as a quick synopsis on my views with the card so I didn't think much about it. Next time I'll be sure to explain myself better.
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My apologies, I drew the wrong conclusions and was a bit harsh. I certainly wasn't just looking for a fight... I actually went back and read the earlier posts on this thread after posting and saw just how passionately divided people are regarding this card. Better/Experienced players will be the best at minimizing the drawbacks of any card, not just this one.
Anyhow, I do apologize, and may your opponents draw trash off your Arcane Denials!
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I think as players gain experience, both with cube and magic in general they begin to appreciate the distinction between abstract power level and contextual power level. When you use Denial to do what counter spells to best, to trump your opponent's trump (whether that's their bomb or their answer to you game winning play), then you're pretty happy about a 1U hard counter, despite the card disadvantage. Over time players learn this. And that's what's so great about cube, it exposes players to situations they might not encounter if all they've played is standard or current limited.
Denial reminds me a lot of Meloku or Gifts Ungiven, classic blue "skills tester" cards.
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How do use Arcane Denial suboptimally? You counter a bad card? You use it when you could as well use another counter you have in your hand? You kill next turn but only have one card in your library?
Maybe countering a card that isn't important in the game state is bad, but that would be a mistake even with a normal Counterspell.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear