It sucks because flavor-wise embalm is a very limited mechanic. In how many worlds out there will there be mummification?
I'm hoping it is one of those that they squeeze in to a supplemental like morbid but flavor wise we are chocked. Maybe next time we go to Innistrad we can do more classic horror with Mummies instead of ridiculous eldrazi.
It sucks because flavor-wise embalm is a very limited mechanic. In how many worlds out there will there be mummification?
I'm hoping it is one of those that they squeeze in to a supplemental like morbid but flavor wise we are chocked. Maybe next time we go to Innistrad we can do more classic horror with Mummies instead of ridiculous eldrazi.
The Eldrazi flavor on Innistrad was awesome though. They truly felt like horror monsters. Frankly it gave them much more of a fearsome effect to show up there than treasure island.
This would be an interesting set to look back on in six months.
Thanks for all the work on these. For those of us who get to draft once a month, it's nice to have someone experienced doing extensive testing on these cards. My list of acquisitions and includes always changes a little after reading reviews, with special weight to yours and Usman's.
Thanks! Glad it was enjoyable and/or informative. Things could certainly look different in 6 months. A lot of cards are right on the cusp, for better or worse.
Really great work as always. I think the final includes a year from now for small cubes won't be many but I do think this is the type of set where a lot of pet cards come from. And I would like to echo that I hope we see Embalm, Cylcing and aftermath again. There are all perfect mechanics for cube.
And for anyone who has a larger cube or doesn't want to put the money up for ABU duals the new lands are amazing. I am pretty disgusted that I can't find room for them. My group just doesn't play enough and isn't big enough to want a larger cube. Plus we are now in need of a new set of fetch lands to make things really sing.
I knew this set was going to be good for the cube when I looked a the mechanics and none of them were narrow crappy ones that are only useful in a specific setting. And you can't go wrong with revisiting cycling; I'd be happy if they did it every block.
I've been really enjoying the cycling lands, and I'm glad my cube was able to accommodate them. Lots of interesting play generated by their presence.
It sucks because flavor-wise embalm is a very limited mechanic. In how many worlds out there will there be mummification?
Ya, it will probably be isolated to this block, unfortunately. I'm hoping for good aggressive ones in the next set; it was the one ability I found strangely underrepresented given how amazing the set was for cube. They were careful with the designs in this set, and only a handful of the new mechanics were really pushed.
Cycling felt like it was the only one pushed, but they clearly are very comfortable with that due to their experience. I would be overjoyed for it to be evergreen but I feel like the smoothing it gives you is not something they want in standard all the time. I was really expecting and embalm ball lightning or something or more presence in black in red but they discussed that in the flavor articles. One can only hope that Bolas twists these effects to greater heights.
I'll echo others on Cast Out. I think the card might end up being the best O-Ring variant. Wasn't sold at first because it costs 4, but ask yourselves if adding flash and 1 mana cycle to O-ring is worth 1 extra mana? I think the answer is a clear yes. Making this effect instant speed is a very large upgrade in fact (and keeping the cost 3W instead of going 2WW is huge too). And while you might not want to cycle a card like this all that often, the fact that you can is pure upside. It's not a strike against the card. I think some might be looking at it through that lens - like this hurts the card - and I don't think that makes sense honestly.
First, lemme point out that I really like this set. It's full of flavorful, interesting cards that I look forward to playing in various formats. That being said, cube is not one of them. Yes, Manglehorn is an auto-include over Viridian Shaman. Yes, Dread Wanderer is slightly better than any of the bazillion other options in the one-drop black creature slot. However, outside of New Nissa, nothing really jumped out at me as breaking new ground.
I'd also like to point out that Amonkhet has no business being uttered in the same sentence as OG Zendikar when talking about power level. I notice that even after 8 years, your cube is still running roughly 15 Zendikar cards. Good luck finding 15 keepers in this set. Let alone 15 that will still be seeing play a decade from now in powered cubes.
But what do I know? Most my cube knowledge comes from this very forum. It's just that this is the first time I have ever so vehemently disagreed over the power level of a set before.
Cycling felt like it was the only one pushed, but they clearly are very comfortable with that due to their experience. I would be overjoyed for it to be evergreen but I feel like the smoothing it gives you is not something they want in standard all the time. I was really expecting and embalm ball lightning or something or more presence in black in red but they discussed that in the flavor articles. One can only hope that Bolas twists these effects to greater heights.
Ya, they were clearly more comfortable with cycling.
I'll echo others on Cast Out. I think the card might end up being the best O-Ring variant. Wasn't sold at first because it costs 4, but ask yourselves if adding flash and 1 mana cycle to O-ring is worth 1 extra mana? I think the answer is a clear yes. Making this effect instant speed is a very large upgrade in fact (and keeping the cost 3W instead of going 2WW is huge too). And while you might not want to cycle a card like this all that often, the fact that you can is pure upside. It's not a strike against the card. I think some might be looking at it through that lens - like this hurts the card - and I don't think that makes sense honestly.
I like Cast Out a lot. But no way is it better than the 3cc variants. Being cost effective is critical with removal; there's a reason there isn't a single 4cc 1-for-1 removal spell in the cube. The flash is not worth the extra 1 on its own without factoring in the tax you're paying for the cycling. Nobody's holding cycling against the value of the card. But it's important to understand that part of the value on cycling comes from the probability of wanting to cycle it. It's why it's so much better on situationally great spells rather than universally valuable ones.
But at the end of the day, it's not the quality of Cast Out that keeps it from making the cut in my cube. It's the competition. The 4cc noncreature slot in white is the absolute hardest competition in the entire cube. And this is a good, flexible card, but that's not enough against that suite of cards.
First, lemme point out that I really like this set. It's full of flavorful, interesting cards that I look forward to playing in various formats. That being said, cube is not one of them. Yes, Manglehorn is an auto-include over Viridian Shaman. Yes, Dread Wanderer is slightly better than any of the bazillion other options in the one-drop black creature slot. However, outside of New Nissa, nothing really jumped out at me as breaking new ground.
I'd also like to point out that Amonkhet has no business being uttered in the same sentence as OG Zendikar when talking about power level. I notice that even after 8 years, your cube is still running roughly 15 Zendikar cards. Good luck finding 15 keepers in this set. Let alone 15 that will still be seeing play a decade from now in powered cubes.
But what do I know? Most my cube knowledge comes from this very forum. It's just that this is the first time I have ever so vehemently disagreed over the power level of a set before.
This set produced more cards that survived the testing process than any set since Zendikar. It currently has more cards in it than Zendikar, though it's close, and that'll change. It won't have as many decade-long keepers, I agree. Zendikar was a bomb set. But the most important part of Amonkhet isn't the quality of its top shelf (which determines the number of core staples) but the depth it provides. For cubes in the 540-720 range, there are easily 40 cards worth testing, discussing and experimenting with, and they explore a lot of different avenues that help to support various niche archetypes for all kinds of cube managers. There hasn't ever been a set that deep since I've been cube drafting. Certainly not since I've been writing articles over the last 21 major sets. So I agree that it doesn't have the same decade-long impact that Zendikar has in terms of the quality of is very best cards, but Amonkhet is the deepest set I've seen for cube in my cubing tenure. Sorry that my comparison to the fine set of Zendikar seemed to strike a nerve with you.
Really hard to compare sets like that IMO. Zendikar was right after the power creep explosion so a lot of stuff was making waves in cube that maybe today would get largely ignored. Zendikar is like 8 years old now? And many of those cards I would guess are hanging around in lists simply because they have a lot of mileage in cube and people don't like taking out stuff that they've grown too accostomed to (I know I hate it, which is why my cubes are retro in nature).
Zendikar also had enemy fetches, which is adding +5 to the count right (land cycles inflate representation IMO)? So other than Goblin Guide, Bloodghast, Lotus Cobra and enemy fetches, are there really any "can't live without" cards in that set? And by my calculation, if this set gives us 3 cards + BiCycles that last 8 years in cube, I think we are basically on par.
So other than Goblin Guide, Bloodghast, Lotus Cobra and enemy fetches, are there really any "can't live without" cards in that set?
Day of Judgment.
I'm also a pretty big fan of Burst Lightning and Oracle of Mul Daya, but I agree they're not necessarily "can't live without" cards.
So if you removed the lands, there's like 4 stone 360 staples. Which is a very high top shelf for a single set to provide. But because of the enemy fetches, creating 9 staples that'll pretty much never leave any cube is just absurd. Zendikar was a hell of a set for this format.
Can't blame Amonkhet for not breaking a lot of new ground since half the mechanis are just a rehash of older mechanics (Embalm / Aftermath are just twists on flashback / split casrds), exerts is unexciting, and cycling is cycling. Luckily, all these mechanics work well for cube since they're not parasitic like affinity or tribal themes. Not everything has to be new and exciting. I'd much rather have something familiar yet solid than a horrible experiment gone wrong. The post-modern "frontier" era of magic is still relatively young, especially the two-set block model. I like that we move on from block to block more often which means they can push mechanics more and not stretch things out for 3 sets.
Mini report card of Frontier legal blocks for cube
Khans block: Broke new ground with tri-brids and gave us absolute baller cards like Dig Through Time / Ugin / Kolaghan's Command. Kind of weird to compare to other frontier blocka since it's the only 3-set block. Prowess debuted in KTK block and is now evergreen.
Origins: Broke new ground with flipwalkers. Aside from flipwalkers, Languish / P&K Nalaar are big hits.
BFZ block: Broke new grounds with exile matters / having a colorless permanent matters / colorless mana differentiation. Only colorless matters really impacted cube mechanic wise, but it's still something that needs a lot of work. Block as a whole was pretty meh, but there are plenty of top / high shelf cards like Ulamog / Gideon / Oath of Nissa / Chandra / Kalitas / Reflector Mage / manlands / are all great.
SOI block: Literally broke no new ground. Transform is always fun, but Delirium was just a riff off Threshold and isn't suited well for cube. Outside of aggro creatures, Avacyn / Emrakul / Liliana / Thalia were the only exciting cards in the whole block. Flavor was on point, but god damn this did not have to come immediately after BFZ eldrazi world.
Kaladesh block: Broke new ground by introducing a new powerful subtype in vehicles. Chandra and friends raised the roof in KLD while AER was more a raise the floor set with Kari Zev being the only exciting card. KLD was great flavor wise and was a nice change of scenery from the past two apocalyptic Eldrazi worlds.
Can anyone explain how Stroke of Genius is a win condition with infinite mana compared to pull from tomorrow?
Stroke of Genius is target player. So you make them draw their entire library +1 and they lose on the spot. Pull from Tomorrow will only kill you with infinite mana.
I hope you're right about Amonkhet. I've all but stopped playing in normal limited environments because I find it mind numbing to durdle around with 5 mana Doom Blades
My current number of ZEN cards (post-AKH update) is 16, and that includes fetches. I didn't forget to include anything in the post above; the list ahadabans was trying to create was the "can't live without" cards. Of which there are about 4 (9 if you include fetchlands) in Zendikar. Fantastic set for cube.
Cube is the best format. And I haven't loved retail limited since triple-ZEN drafts.
So the more i look at this, the more I want to replace Into the Roil with Commit to Memory
I dont think ive cast Roil for 2 mana ever, and Commit is such a powerful tempo card that works on both ends as reactive and proactive
I also wanna try Cut to Ribbons. I currently run Flame Slash and I think the 1 mana tax is worth it. Additionally, my cube runs conspiracies and Unexpected potential on Ribbons might be a way to give UR spells matter some additional reach. not to mention GR ramp style decks being to cast a gigantic fireball on the back end of their removal spell
I want to play Nissa instead of Kiora MOW, Ashiok comparison aside, UG and UGR want to ramp into big spells, and an x spell thats also a value engine and a fireball seem awesome
finally, im a little sad that i have to say bye to stroke of genius, but Pull is just so powerful and has so many synergies due to the discard. UB reanimator loves this
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I want to replace Into the Roil with Commit to Memory
This is the same change I made. Same net value when kicked, except Commit costs 3U instead of 2UU, it can counter spells in addition to bouncing cards, and it has a free flashback Timetwister strapped to it. It loses Into the Roils ability to bounce something for 2 mana in a pinch, but I agree with you that was an effect not used as often as the kicked mode, and I like the rest of Commits flexibility more.
I don't mean to knock Zendikar. It's a really great set. I'm actually running 13 cards in my 360 (includes fetches), but I have an unhealthy love of landfall.
Agree with the top 2 but would switch Liliana and Manglehorn. I'm definitely running the aggro black drop, Nissa, and Manglehorn. Not sure about Liliana yet, will need to try her out.
I'm hoping it is one of those that they squeeze in to a supplemental like morbid but flavor wise we are chocked. Maybe next time we go to Innistrad we can do more classic horror with Mummies instead of ridiculous eldrazi.
The Eldrazi flavor on Innistrad was awesome though. They truly felt like horror monsters. Frankly it gave them much more of a fearsome effect to show up there than treasure island.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
Thanks! Glad it was enjoyable and/or informative. Things could certainly look different in 6 months. A lot of cards are right on the cusp, for better or worse.
I knew this set was going to be good for the cube when I looked a the mechanics and none of them were narrow crappy ones that are only useful in a specific setting. And you can't go wrong with revisiting cycling; I'd be happy if they did it every block.
I've been really enjoying the cycling lands, and I'm glad my cube was able to accommodate them. Lots of interesting play generated by their presence.
Ya, it will probably be isolated to this block, unfortunately. I'm hoping for good aggressive ones in the next set; it was the one ability I found strangely underrepresented given how amazing the set was for cube. They were careful with the designs in this set, and only a handful of the new mechanics were really pushed.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I'll echo others on Cast Out. I think the card might end up being the best O-Ring variant. Wasn't sold at first because it costs 4, but ask yourselves if adding flash and 1 mana cycle to O-ring is worth 1 extra mana? I think the answer is a clear yes. Making this effect instant speed is a very large upgrade in fact (and keeping the cost 3W instead of going 2WW is huge too). And while you might not want to cycle a card like this all that often, the fact that you can is pure upside. It's not a strike against the card. I think some might be looking at it through that lens - like this hurts the card - and I don't think that makes sense honestly.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
I'd also like to point out that Amonkhet has no business being uttered in the same sentence as OG Zendikar when talking about power level. I notice that even after 8 years, your cube is still running roughly 15 Zendikar cards. Good luck finding 15 keepers in this set. Let alone 15 that will still be seeing play a decade from now in powered cubes.
But what do I know? Most my cube knowledge comes from this very forum. It's just that this is the first time I have ever so vehemently disagreed over the power level of a set before.
Ya, they were clearly more comfortable with cycling.
I like Cast Out a lot. But no way is it better than the 3cc variants. Being cost effective is critical with removal; there's a reason there isn't a single 4cc 1-for-1 removal spell in the cube. The flash is not worth the extra 1 on its own without factoring in the tax you're paying for the cycling. Nobody's holding cycling against the value of the card. But it's important to understand that part of the value on cycling comes from the probability of wanting to cycle it. It's why it's so much better on situationally great spells rather than universally valuable ones.
But at the end of the day, it's not the quality of Cast Out that keeps it from making the cut in my cube. It's the competition. The 4cc noncreature slot in white is the absolute hardest competition in the entire cube. And this is a good, flexible card, but that's not enough against that suite of cards.
This set produced more cards that survived the testing process than any set since Zendikar. It currently has more cards in it than Zendikar, though it's close, and that'll change. It won't have as many decade-long keepers, I agree. Zendikar was a bomb set. But the most important part of Amonkhet isn't the quality of its top shelf (which determines the number of core staples) but the depth it provides. For cubes in the 540-720 range, there are easily 40 cards worth testing, discussing and experimenting with, and they explore a lot of different avenues that help to support various niche archetypes for all kinds of cube managers. There hasn't ever been a set that deep since I've been cube drafting. Certainly not since I've been writing articles over the last 21 major sets. So I agree that it doesn't have the same decade-long impact that Zendikar has in terms of the quality of is very best cards, but Amonkhet is the deepest set I've seen for cube in my cubing tenure. Sorry that my comparison to the fine set of Zendikar seemed to strike a nerve with you.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Zendikar also had enemy fetches, which is adding +5 to the count right (land cycles inflate representation IMO)? So other than Goblin Guide, Bloodghast, Lotus Cobra and enemy fetches, are there really any "can't live without" cards in that set? And by my calculation, if this set gives us 3 cards + BiCycles that last 8 years in cube, I think we are basically on par.
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
Day of Judgment.
I'm also a pretty big fan of Burst Lightning and Oracle of Mul Daya, but I agree they're not necessarily "can't live without" cards.
So if you removed the lands, there's like 4 stone 360 staples. Which is a very high top shelf for a single set to provide. But because of the enemy fetches, creating 9 staples that'll pretty much never leave any cube is just absurd. Zendikar was a hell of a set for this format.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Mini report card of Frontier legal blocks for cube
Khans block: Broke new ground with tri-brids and gave us absolute baller cards like Dig Through Time / Ugin / Kolaghan's Command. Kind of weird to compare to other frontier blocka since it's the only 3-set block. Prowess debuted in KTK block and is now evergreen.
Origins: Broke new ground with flipwalkers. Aside from flipwalkers, Languish / P&K Nalaar are big hits.
BFZ block: Broke new grounds with exile matters / having a colorless permanent matters / colorless mana differentiation. Only colorless matters really impacted cube mechanic wise, but it's still something that needs a lot of work. Block as a whole was pretty meh, but there are plenty of top / high shelf cards like Ulamog / Gideon / Oath of Nissa / Chandra / Kalitas / Reflector Mage / manlands / are all great.
SOI block: Literally broke no new ground. Transform is always fun, but Delirium was just a riff off Threshold and isn't suited well for cube. Outside of aggro creatures, Avacyn / Emrakul / Liliana / Thalia were the only exciting cards in the whole block. Flavor was on point, but god damn this did not have to come immediately after BFZ eldrazi world.
Kaladesh block: Broke new ground by introducing a new powerful subtype in vehicles. Chandra and friends raised the roof in KLD while AER was more a raise the floor set with Kari Zev being the only exciting card. KLD was great flavor wise and was a nice change of scenery from the past two apocalyptic Eldrazi worlds.
My High Octane Unpowered Cube on CubeCobra
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
"Everybody dies, Tracey. Someone's carrying a bullet for you right now, doesn't even know it. The trick is to die of old age before it finds you."
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Can anyone explain how Stroke of Genius is a win condition with infinite mana compared to pull from tomorrow? They both seem great in that deck.
Also, follow us on twitter! @TurnOneMagic
You're very welcome!
Stroke of Genius is target player. So you make them draw their entire library +1 and they lose on the spot. Pull from Tomorrow will only kill you with infinite mana.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
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T1: Land, Steppe Lynx
T2: Land, Khalni Heart Expedition, attack for 2
T3: Land, Harrow, pop Expedition, attack for 10
I hope you're right about Amonkhet. I've all but stopped playing in normal limited environments because I find it mind numbing to durdle around with 5 mana Doom Blades
Cube is the best format. And I haven't loved retail limited since triple-ZEN drafts.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
I dont think ive cast Roil for 2 mana ever, and Commit is such a powerful tempo card that works on both ends as reactive and proactive
I also wanna try Cut to Ribbons. I currently run Flame Slash and I think the 1 mana tax is worth it. Additionally, my cube runs conspiracies and Unexpected potential on Ribbons might be a way to give UR spells matter some additional reach. not to mention GR ramp style decks being to cast a gigantic fireball on the back end of their removal spell
I want to play Nissa instead of Kiora MOW, Ashiok comparison aside, UG and UGR want to ramp into big spells, and an x spell thats also a value engine and a fireball seem awesome
finally, im a little sad that i have to say bye to stroke of genius, but Pull is just so powerful and has so many synergies due to the discard. UB reanimator loves this
This is the same change I made. Same net value when kicked, except Commit costs 3U instead of 2UU, it can counter spells in addition to bouncing cards, and it has a free flashback Timetwister strapped to it. It loses Into the Roils ability to bounce something for 2 mana in a pinch, but I agree with you that was an effect not used as often as the kicked mode, and I like the rest of Commits flexibility more.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/modular-cube-5-colors.800/
Retro combo cube thread
http://riptidelab.com/forum/threads/retro-combo-cube.1454/
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
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I'm OP_Forever. I'll be putting this in my signature for a while so everyone know I change my nickname.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!